Interesting article re: Sasha and Michelle

[Alexa]

I saw this article on another website...

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/9971681.htm?1c

[susan6]

"He says why should Michelle retire when she isn't being beaten, even though she lost as much as won last season."

Wow, you have such a depressing idea of what it is to "lose". She's one of the top three skaters in the world and is still apparently a loser in your eyes who should just pack it in.

About the whole "back" thing. Some of you young 'uns probably still think you're immortal, but.....as you age, you start taking your body's complaints more seriously. A pain you would have shrugged off a few years ago could signal the beginning of the end of your career. Michelle has seen competitors with shortened careers due to damage, and she has always been very cautious to avoid injury. And there are plenty of people who are all too ready to remind her that she's an over the hill geezer in the skating world. So maybe she took her back pain a bit too seriously....should she be punished for that? We're not residing in her body and we're not her doctors......why make judgements when we really don't know how much pain she was in? Are we really at the point where we expect an athlete to present a doctor's note and wave his/her MRI results in the camera in order to be given the benefit of the doubt?

[HSF]

LOL, Bondo, it was not a USFS guy that said Michelle's back was better. Shep Goldberg, Michelle's agent, made that remark.

I can't get too excited about any Hersh article. Seems like his mood is determined by what side of the bed he gets up on.

BTW, he was all over Michelle for her terrible choice of music a couple of years ago so I guess it's Sasha's turn now. FWIW, I thought he was wrong then and I think he is wrong now.

You just have to take Phil with a grain of salt.

[AxelAnnie22]

Wow - interesting article. Taking out the "Hersch" factor...he had some interesting insights:

1. Kwan has angered the USFSA - as wel she should have.
2. Sasha took off way too much time this summer.

Hope everybody gets a grip here, and that Sasha hasn't had a rift with Robin.

[susan6]

You are putting intentions into my words that I did not. I was simply commenting on what was said in the article....... You seem to have a desire to make my words a sign of my personal agenda when I'm simply discussing what other people said.

Sigh....I probably shouldn't get into this and I've got a meeting to go to but I am truly befuddled. Look at the mass quantities of posts you've made about Michelle, from the lengthy discussion of why she should have been 5th in the short and 2nd in the long at this past US Nationals, to the current thread about her SA withdrawal. There is a consistant agenda that you are promoting subtly in all these posts.

How come you can clearly recognize when Bush and Cheney are doing their subtle, undercutting doublespeak about eville liberals, but you don't notice when you do it yourself?

[Rachel]

He says why should Michelle retire when she isn't being beaten, even though she lost as much as won last season.

From the context, it is clear he was talking about US Nationals.

1. Kwan has angered the USFSA - as wel she should have..

He did not say Kwan has angered the USFS, but that some USFS officials were angered. There is a difference between angering an entire organization and angering some members of an organization.

It is interesting that this article, through a quote says that Michelle's back injury is not a real excuse for her going out of the GP apparently.

The quote in question said nothing whatsoever about whether or not the back pain (not injury, which is a fan interpretation of what was said) was an excuse, or a reason or anything else. Michelle's agent says her back is feeling better. Phil Hersh said that Michelle should be given credit for NOT using the the back pain as an excuse for pulling out of the GP.

If you don't want people to put words into your mouth, so to speak, I suggest that you be careful about citing others.

[AxelAnnie22]

Rachel - you are absolutely correct. Thank you for the correction. It does not, however, alter my assertion that the officials were quite right to be angered.

[hiliairyh]

Rachel - you are absolutely correct. Thank you for the correction. It does not, however, alter my assertion that the officials were quite right to be angered.

Don't know who these officials are. BTW, is it your assertion that usfsa / officials should be angered towards Tara for breaking her contract? Were you one of the posters who gave Tara a rough time for breaking her contract?

[Rachel]

It does not, however, alter my assertion that the officials were quite right to be angered.

And at no point did I say it did. I don't find unsupported assertions particularly worthy of discussion, especially since neither you nor I could support an argument on the subject with any kind of substance.

[AxelAnnie22]

Don't know who these officials are. BTW, is it your assertion that usfsa / officials should be angered towards Tara for breaking her contract? Were you one of the posters who gave Tara a rough time for breaking her contract?
To what contract are you referring?

[prunes89]

How dare they say such mean and hateful things about Sasha? This man is clearly jealous of her and her many talents. He probably has an ugly, fat daughter that wishes she was as cute as Sasha. :twisted: I doubt she and her coach are on the outs. He is only wishing. Why would Tarasova say anything bad about Sasha? Tarasova was very ill and that's why she went back to Russia. I bet reading this will make her blood boil and he'll wish he never wrote such blasphemy! :evil:
Sasha need to be given a break. She is young and has been through alot in her young years.
I'm going to send him a letter expressing my anger towards this article.
I am glad he spoke up about Kwan though.

[Rachel]

Rachel...you really are a bit desperate with those comments...pure semantics. My statements are not really different from what was in the article other than in the words I used to describe it.

And you are really reaching if you think you can blame me when you incorrectly summarize someone else's words resulting in a different meaning and not get called on it.

There is a big difference between saying that Michelle's back pain was no excuse and saying that Michelle did not use her back pain as an excuse. There is a big difference between saying that Michelle's back feels better now and saying that Michelle's back didn't hurt enough to knock her out of the GP.

If you do not see these differences, then you need some remedial reading comprehension classes.

[doubletoe]

How dare they say such mean and hateful things about Sasha? This man is clearly jealous of her and her many talents. He probably has an ugly, fat daughter that wishes she was as cute as Sasha. :twisted: I doubt she and her coach are on the outs. He is only wishing.

I believe that when Sasha is "on", she is the most breathtaking female skater in the world, which is why I usually root for her to win. And she is definitely my favorite skater to watch. But Sasha is also well known in the skating community for being a very rude, foul-mouthed and demanding person (although she has learned how to behave around the press in the past year or two). So although Sasha is a beautiful skater, she has given a lot of people reason to have negative feelings towards her. I hope as she matures she is develops the ability to be gracious even when the cameras are off.

[DancinDiva]

How dare they say such mean and hateful things about Sasha? This man is clearly jealous of her and her many talents. He probably has an ugly, fat daughter that wishes she was as cute as Sasha. :twisted: I doubt she and her coach are on the outs. He is only wishing. Why would Tarasova say anything bad about Sasha? Tarasova was very ill and that's why she went back to Russia. I bet reading this will make her blood boil and he'll wish he never wrote such blasphemy! :evil:
Sasha need to be given a break. She is young and has been through alot in her young years.
I'm going to send him a letter expressing my anger towards this article.
I am glad he spoke up about Kwan though.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or if you really mean this. PLease tell me you are joking!

[hiliairyh]

To what contract are you referring?

Tara had a contract with usfsa.

[jpeach]

Again I ask, instead of challenging me on account of your perception of my biases, look at the arguments I make, I think you might find they are reasonable if you disassociate them with your view of me.

Ah, jeez. While this is a very logical statement, Bondo (really, I'm not being sarcastic; I truly mean it), it's difficult for me to separate your bias from the arguments you make. Your views about Kwan are well-known. I see "Bondo" in a thread and I know I'm rarely if ever going to read anything positive about Kwan unless it's tainted with a back-handed compliment or twisted truth-bending.

[HSF]

Bondo, I can’t believe what I have been reading.

Aren’t you the person who always accuses others of misinterpreting or putting words in your mouth that you didn’t say?

You totally misinterpreted the article, you misinterpreted what Michelle said when she withdrew from the GP series; but we are supposed to take your words as “fact?” Or are we to believe what really was said? You put words into Phil Hersh’s mouth as well as Michelle Kwan.

I think this is the pot calling the kettle black.

I guess I am just being “snippy” again. LOL

[hiliairyh]

But Sasha is also well known in the skating community for being a very rude, foul-mouthed and demanding person (although she has learned how to behave around the press in the past year or two). So although Sasha is a beautiful skater, she has given a lot of people reason to have negative feelings towards her. I hope as she matures she is develops the ability to be gracious even when the cameras are off.

OH no, you are not trying to say that Sasha has diva like behavior.

[fadedstardust]

I believe that when Sasha is "on", she is the most breathtaking female skater in the world, which is why I usually root for her to win. And she is definitely my favorite skater to watch. But Sasha is also well known in the skating community for being a very rude, foul-mouthed and demanding person (although she has learned how to behave around the press in the past year or two). So although Sasha is a beautiful skater, she has given a lot of people reason to have negative feelings towards her. I hope as she matures she is develops the ability to be gracious even when the cameras are off.

As someone who trained at the same rink, sometimes on the same ice (though not often because she is blessed with the elusive private ice) and exchanged pleasantries with her many a day, I'd have to say you are WRONG on Sasha's character. Who is she well-known as the things you said by? She's a difficult girl to coach because she's very strong-willed and her coaches say that overtly, but she's not a difficult person to be friends or even train with or be in the company of. Don't speak of people unless you actually know them personally, and don't assume that what is assumed to be true by "the masses" actually is true- and by perpetuating and spreading it, you are affirming it as truth, which makes you just as guilty of it. There's many negative things I'm sure you could say about Sasha, but rude and foul-mouthed? Demanding, maybe. But the other two are totally off-base, and saying she basically puts on a good face for the press is really a laugh because she actually comes off more arrogant and "rude" in interviews than she ever would in person.

[fadedstardust]

Tara had a contract with usfsa.

...What kind of contract? Tara practically has no hip now, I think that's grounds for contract revision/anullement. But I don't know the specifics so...

[hiliairyh]

...What kind of contract? Tara practically has no hip now, I think that's grounds for contract revision/anullement. But I don't know the specifics so...

That was long time ago, I forgot the specifics, but I remember usfsa making an official statement (even legally they have a case) in 1998 but they have no interest in taking again action against Tara, or making her honor the contract.

I also remember some posters were rough on Tara. So I wonder what Axelannie thinks about Tara breaking the usfsa contract, and was she one of the posters who gave Tara a rough time.

[hiliairyh]

Demanding, maybe.

LOL, are you trying to say Sasha has diva like behavior?

[Nicki]

...What kind of contract? Tara practically has no hip now, I think that's grounds for contract revision/anullement. But I don't know the specifics so...

I think she's referring to the contract that Tara had with the USFSA in 1998. She broke it when she decided to turn pro after winning the Olympics. The contract stated the she would perform at specific USFSA events and she decided not to do those events once she became Olympic champion.

[loveskating]

Ah, jeez. While this is a very logical statement, Bondo (really, I'm not being sarcastic; I truly mean it), it's difficult for me to separate your bias from the arguments you make. Your views about Kwan are well-known. I see "Bondo" in a thread and I know I'm rarely if ever going to read anything positive about Kwan unless it's tainted with a back-handed compliment or twisted truth-bending.

If true, which it is not, SO WHAT???? At least Bondo treats Michelle like a HUMAN BEING, not some tin god that he can ride to popularity or that sustains some little vicious group he is in!

Pleanty of posters dislike this or that skater...but they are not attacked constantly and in a personal manner! Only superfans of Kwan police the entire net, trying to drive everyone who doesn't worship Michelle away! TO YOU dislikeing Michelle Kwan ipso facto makes one 'biased"...not so for many people, I assure you.

Just address the issue, please. All issues can be addressed, and everyone can learn something.

[hiliairyh]

Let me address the issue by saying I have the skaters best in my heart.... Then oh, I need to go to the library and check out Shakespeare King Lear or Opera, Pavarotti, or Callas first. :lol: Then I need to put the Shakespeare, opera and my imaginery character flaws of the skaters into one huge spin and wrap it in a ribbon call good intention and care for the skaters. :roll:

Issue, OK Phil Hersch knows what sells.

[hiliairyh]

referring to the contract that Tara had with the USFSA in 1998. She broke it when she decided to turn pro after winning the Olympics. The contract stated the she would perform at specific USFSA events and she decided not to do those events once she became Olympic champion.

Thanks Nicki, I forgot about the specifics, IIRC Tara did not make any public statement about her decision. Interesting to see some of the people who were bashing Tara for breaking a contract then are are bashing Michelle for declining an invitation now.

[Rachel]

Rachel...Michelle did have her back come up as an excuse, even if she didn't say it originally. It was right there in the news story..

Which news story are we talking about? If we are talking about the Hersh story, then this is exactly what was said:

Give Kwan credit for not stretching the truth and using a sore back as a reason to pull out.

If we are talking about the other news story, it said:

Kwan, a five-time world champion, has been experiencing back pain during workouts.

Michelle had said this before the cheesefest as well. But nowhere in that article or any other does it say that Michelle withdrew from the GP because of back pain. All it says is that she has been experiencing it. Anything else is interpretation.

Considering neither of her GP events have happened, if her back is feeling better now, how does it merit her not participating? Oh, I remember, she wasn't using her back as the reason apparently...that is what you said just before. So now I go back to criticizing Michelle for skipping the GP of her own initiative without pressing reason.

And have I ever said that Michelle DIDN'T skip the GP of her own initiative? The only comments I have ever seen which directly address the issue of why Michelle was skipping the GP are the ones Michelle made--and at no point did she say that she was skipping the GP for any reason other than that was what she thought it best to do.

So no, there was no real misinterpretation on my part

Right. There's only fake misinterpretation.

And I can't concieve of how you argue that Michelle didn't use her back as an excuse but then that her back is better means doesn't mean that her back didn't merit her being out of the GP.

This is what I said:

There is a big difference between saying that Michelle's back pain was no excuse and saying that Michelle did not use her back pain as an excuse. There is a big difference between saying that Michelle's back feels better now and saying that Michelle's back didn't hurt enough to knock her out of the GP.

You claimed that the article said that Michelle's back pain was not excuse; I said that the article said that Michelle did not use her back pain as an excuse--see quote above. Shep Goldberg said that her back is feeling better now; you claimed that what was said was that Michelle's back didn't hurt enough to knock her out of the GP--your exact words It is interesting that this article, through a quote says that Michelle's back injury is not a real excuse for her going out of the GP apparently. The exact quote Goldberg said in a Monday e-mail, "Her back is feeling much better now."

I was not making any argument for or against Michelle's participation in the GP; I was merely pointing out that you were not correctly summarizing what was actually said.

[pittypat]

Ah, jeez. While this is a very logical statement, Bondo (really, I'm not being sarcastic; I truly mean it), it's difficult for me to separate your bias from the arguments you make. Your views about Kwan are well-known. I see "Bondo" in a thread and I know I'm rarely if ever going to read anything positive about Kwan unless it's tainted with a back-handed compliment or twisted truth-bending.


SO VERY TRUE

[Skatewind]

Rachel...you really are a bit desperate with those comments...pure semantics. My statements are not really different from what was in the article other than in the words I used to describe it.
I'm not Rachel, but I did read the article & what you described from memory is very different than what is actually stated in the article. There are a lot of people besides Rachel who don't care much for the inaccurate reviews & misattributed quotes, especially when the article is readily available.

[Buzzing84]

I'm assuming this is the Hersh article (I don't want to register but someone sent me the text.) I find it rather absurd a few of his claims, revealing his bias. He says Sasha botched three jumps at Campbell's when she only had problems with two. He says why should Michelle retire when she isn't being beaten, even though she lost as much as won last season.

I know this has nothing to do with the discussion that has developed, but Sasha did in fact make mistakes on three jumps. Her flip, loop and second lutz all had problems.

[Buzzing84]

What, a phantom two foot like all those she had at SLC allegedly? She had the one where whe nearly fell and the pop.

Look, you can think what you wish. I have the event on a video tape in my basement and I could pop it into the VCR right now and see that Sasha's second triple lutz had a clearly two-footed landing. I'm not sure why you're having trouble admitting that it was a mistake.

[Skatewind]

So finally, I ask, please deal with the content of my criticism and find reasons why it isn't valid (good luck) rather than simply attacking my credibility.
I'm sure people would be happy to do that were you discussing your ideas & not inaccurately portraying those of others. Personally, I am not for or against MK or SC, so I have no horse in this race (I only opened this thread to read some news), but I strongly disagree with attributing things to either the USFSA or Phil Hersh that they did not say when there is a direct link showing what is stated; & then chastising the people who correct it. It's becomes very tiresome to hear in a "factual" way how the USFSA is doing this or that to various skaters when it's based on the opinions of a few people who aren't representing the USFSA when they share their remarks.

[doubletoe]

As someone who trained at the same rink, sometimes on the same ice (though not often because she is blessed with the elusive private ice) and exchanged pleasantries with her many a day, I'd have to say you are WRONG on Sasha's character. Who is she well-known as the things you said by? She's a difficult girl to coach because she's very strong-willed and her coaches say that overtly, but she's not a difficult person to be friends or even train with or be in the company of.

Thanks for posting that message. I am really happy to hear it because Sasha is my favorite skater and I was disappointed to hear the negative things I heard. The two people I heard this from were both coaches who had dealt with her, so based on what you said, it makes a little more sense now. Maybe she just tends to get into conflicts with her coaches because she is strong-willed. Now I would like to meet her, too. :)

[Hannahclear]

Look, you can think what you wish. I have the event on a video tape in my basement and I could pop it into the VCR right now and see that Sasha's second triple lutz had a clearly two-footed landing. I'm not sure why you're having trouble admitting that it was a mistake.

He/she is right. The lutz was slightly two footed. No phantom there.

Whistling over my shoulder as I walk away without stating anything else...... ;)

[fadedstardust]

Thanks for posting that message. I am really happy to hear it because Sasha is my favorite skater and I was disappointed to hear the negative things I heard. The two people I heard this from were both coaches who had dealt with her, so based on what you said, it makes a little more sense now. Maybe she just tends to get into conflicts with her coaches because she is strong-willed. Now I would like to meet her, too. :)

Yeah, I think that is what it is. Maybe to adults she seems "defiant" and people in places of power do not like that much. But I bet meeting her would make your day then, because especially to her fans, she is VERY sweet. I don't know where you live, but when I was double checking her journal entry about all that hoopla of her making/not making an apology post, I saw that she has a meet and greet event at Zales coming up in New York City. Maybe you can meet her there. If not I'm sure you will some other time ! :)

[Rachel]

Skatewind...IIRC, Hersh has a quote from the USFSA individual and from Goldberg in the same paragraph...a journalist might argue poor, confusing writing...I had to read one paragraph a few times to figure out who he was attributing what quote to. I even admitted in the first post that I was going from memory...and I WASN'T that far off.

Really? Funny, I didn't have that problem and haven't yet seen anyone else on any board misread things in that article. Are you sure you don't need some remedial reading comprehension courses?

There was a paragraph that included both a quote from Shep Goldberg and a quote from a Grand Prix coordinator in the same paragraph, but the delineation between the quotations was perfectly clear.

The article DID say that Michelle's back was better. The article didn't say she used it as an excuse and I never said the article said that

You said It is interesting that this article, through a quote says that Michelle's back injury is not a real excuse for her going out of the GP apparently.

Ah, now there is some poor, confusing writing. Certainly the punctuation needs work in order to enhance the clarity and the phrasing is awkward. It is unclear there whether you are saying that back pain wasn't her excuse or that her back pain was an insufficient excuse.

Also, you can tell people are reaching to criticize me on semantics when I use the term lose instead of "not win" and that in their eyes is a big difference, they mean the same thing. Hersh may have only meant Nationals in his article, but that is idiotic to only consider nationals so I was disregarding his biased limitation of competitions.

Since that part of the article was in direct reference to complaints made by some USFS officials that Michelle's continued presence was blocking the progress of young US skaters, I fail to see how that was idiotic. If the officials were concerned about Michelle's effect on international competition, then it would be certainly be reasonable to discuss the overall picture. But that isn't the case.

And no one was arguing semantics over your use of "lose" instead of "not win." That was not what susan6 was saying to you at all.

Everything in that post is not some great misinterpretation of Hersh's article.

Ah, a Red Queen argument. If you say it three times, it must be true!

So finally, I ask, please deal with the content of my criticism and find reasons why it isn't valid (good luck) rather than simply attacking my credibility.

Your credibilty here was shot the moment you misrepresented statements made in Hersh's article. I AM attacking the substance of your argument. If you are going to cite source material to back up your claims, you are obligated to cite that source material accurately. You didn't. That invalidates any claim you make based on said source material.

Just because you don't acknowledge that your arguments have been invalidated doesn't mean they haven't been.

[likes2skate]

If true, which it is not, SO WHAT???? At least Bondo treats Michelle like a HUMAN BEING, not some tin god that he can ride to popularity or that sustains some little vicious group he is in!

Pleanty of posters dislike this or that skater...but they are not attacked constantly and in a personal manner! Only superfans of Kwan police the entire net, trying to drive everyone who doesn't worship Michelle away! TO YOU dislikeing Michelle Kwan ipso facto makes one 'biased"...not so for many people, I assure you.

Just address the issue, please. All issues can be addressed, and everyone can learn something.

I happen to agree that there are weird fans of Michelle and there are people who get mad if someome says they do not like Michelle's dress.

On the other hand, Bondo is critical of MK in EVERYTHING he writes about her, he always thinks she should be placed lower than she really finished, and he never has said anything nice about her.

If every time i posed about Sasha, I criticized her, said she deserved to be placed lower, and never had anything nice to say about her...wouldn't you find it a bit odd?

[loveskating]

Let me address the issue by saying I have the skaters best in my heart.... Then oh, I need to go to the library and check out Shakespeare King Lear or Opera, Pavarotti, or Callas first. :lol: Then I need to put the Shakespeare, opera and my imaginery character flaws of the skaters into one huge spin and wrap it in a ribbon call good intention and care for the skaters. :roll:

Issue, OK Phil Hersch knows what sells.

Ah, mining the anti-intellectual waters, eh? Bait taken.

You pooooor thing! How oppressive to imagine you would listen to an opera or pick up a book about Maria Callas...but I got news for you -- its easy, you know, now that there is the NET! Just go to http://www.google.com and type in "Maria Callas".

I guess you'd rather fuss with posters than address an issue?

But as to King Lear, I'll just make it simple: love that is ever fancy and flattering, that never tells someone the truth about themselves, that hides the truth even, is not real love....that was Shakespeare's point. Not all criticism is motivated by evil...sometimes, it is motivated by love, and meant to help, not hurt! King Lear went for the flattery, and a lot of horrible destruction was the result.

2nd Point:

I happen to agree that there are weird fans of Michelle and there are people who get mad if someome says they do not like Michelle's dress.

On the other hand, Bondo is critical of MK in EVERYTHING he writes about her, he always thinks she should be placed lower than she really finished, and he never has said anything nice about her.

If every time i posed about Sasha, I criticized her, said she deserved to be placed lower, and never had anything nice to say about her...wouldn't you find it a bit odd?

He is not. Go read his posts archived.

There are plenty of people who constantly attack Sasha...and most of her fans simply speak to the issues they raise. It is INTERESTING whether or not Robyn is a good coach for Sasha...even if some schumck is using the issue to attack Sasha! That goes for most skaters' fans, including Irina's.

[PaulWyliefan]

Thanks for posting that message. I am really happy to hear it because Sasha is my favorite skater and I was disappointed to hear the negative things I heard. The two people I heard this from were both coaches who had dealt with her, so based on what you said, it makes a little more sense now. Maybe she just tends to get into conflicts with her coaches because she is strong-willed. Now I would like to meet her, too. :)

Just wanted to point out that if you're not quite sure of your facts about a skater, you need to mention that when you post. Thanks. :-)

[Hannahclear]

Well, you may have watched Sasha, but you simply missed the two foot. It's there.

[Hannahclear]

Well then, you may want to consider who you are saying this about. IMO, Rachel is simply one of the most articulate, fair minded posters on these boards. She is also not some gigantic Kwan fan, to my knowledge.

[Rachel]

anyone with half a brain can look at my actual post, instead of your spin and see I didn't say what you have claimed I said.

You are quite right; anyone with half a brain can read both your posts and the article and come to their own conclusions about your credibility and lack thereof. But I guess that if anyone disagrees with your interpretation, it can only be because he or she have less than half a brain.

You may not have noticed this yet, but the skating boards are filled with smart people. You may think you are too smart for everyone here and elsewhere, but you are just one of the herd, as fallible as anyone else.

Oh, and the red queen argument thusly applies in that if you claim I hate Michelle enough times then it must be true. I've explained my criticism of Michelle, but if you don't care to actually listen but rather just spout your crap, go ahead.

Since I am the one who made the Red Queen comment, I assume that remark is addressed to me. Find three links to any of my posts anywhere in which I claim that you hate Michelle, and then you may have something to say to me on the subject of Red Queens.

[AxelAnnie22]

Tara had a contract with usfsa.
You intimated that Tara broke a contract. What terms did she not meet? Or, stated more simply: What did she not do that you think she should have done?
And, how Tara got into this conversation is beyond me.

[loveskating]

Well then, you may want to consider who you are saying this about. IMO, Rachel is simply one of the most articulate, fair minded posters on these boards. She is also not some gigantic Kwan fan, to my knowledge.

I wouldn't know...I don't follow screen names or their changes like a lot of people do...I'm not out to drive ANYONE off the net or harm anyone in any way at all or build anyone up, for that matter and I do not hold grudges! I just enjoy skating so much, and enjoy talking about it with others.

I did do a search on Google recently and was amazed to find a self proclaimed group of people who were gushing about Michelle and thus seemed to be Kwan superfans -- and one had a screen name "Rachel". They were saying that my art is all copies, that I only draw heads (a total lie), they were using foul language about me, calling me "anti-Kwan" and saying awful things with curse words about other posters and bashing posters who used my art (of Sasha) for their siggie.

I copied it all because that is kind of scary...not to mention totally boring! I can't imgaine getting into such a discussion about a poster on the NET, which is all I am! Gawd! How CHILDISH!

[hiliairyh]

Ah, mining the anti-intellectual waters, eh? Bait taken.

...but I got news for you -- its easy, you know, now that there is the NET! Just go to http://www.google.com and type in "Maria Callas".
I guess you'd rather fuss with posters than address an issue?


Now look who is fussing? Since you are the one who is constantly talking about stay on the issue, so what do opera, Callas and Shakespear have to do with any issue in a skating message board. Somehow the operas, Shakespear Pavarotti, Callas are morph into some imaginery character flaw of skaters, oh but then under the pretense of care.



How oppressive to imagine you would listen to an opera or pick up a book about Maria Callas

:cry: such drama, don't oppress your mind too much, save some for the :cry: Pavarotti's retirement. oh your poor thing, another MET season without him :cry:

So what next Pavarotti??

[md2be]

[QUOTE=Bondo I have problem with people making up bogus statements about what I have said. There is a difference between disagreeing with my opinion and disagreeing with what my opinion is.[/QUOTE]

Then you need to learn to articulate your thoughts and meanings more clearly as I often find you interpreting written words to suit your needs.

[hiliairyh]

You intimated that Tara broke a contract. What terms did she not meet? Or, stated more simply: What did she not do that you think she should have done?
And, how Tara got into this conversation is beyond me.

Relax Annie, I am a Tara fan, just look at the thread at the poll folder, "who is your favorite lady OGM. I had never criticized her for her decision, so I think she should have done what made her happy (without being criticzed ad nauseum by anti fans and under the pretense that they care) if that meant breaking a contract. How she got into this thread, because you talked about usfsa mad at skaters for declining SA invitation, and I don't think you are critical of Michelle. I remember usfsa was kind of mad at Tara, they made a public statement that they wouldn't hold Tara to the contract, because they did not believe there was any point in making someone do something they didn't want to. Of course I did not remember the exact detail, it was 1998.

Some people here thought usfs should sue Michelle, and that made me associate with the Tara / usfsa contract incident.

[likes2skate]

First, the Hersh article cannot be read from this link because it requires registration. Otherwise I'd quote it directly.

Hersh DID say that Sasha made mistakes on three jumps. Hersh DID say the equivilent of "why should Michelle retire when she isn't being beaten." Goldberg DID say that Michelle's back is fine better (my only error was in attribution.) A USFSA person IS quoted saying that Michelle might be facing ramifications for her actions.

Those are the only four claims I made about what was in the article...and all are very much in the article.

My comment about how Sasha only made two errors on jumps was based on watching her skate, not based on the article. My comment about how Michelle hasn't been unbeatable was based on my not finding it intellectually honest for Hersh to only include Nationals. My comment about how her back wasn't an excuse for the GP was based on the quote I talked about above but also the other threads discussing her withdraw including the article that implied the back pain was a reason (even though Michelle has never said it outright.)

All my claims ABOUT the article were accurate other than the attribution error I've admitted to. All the other things you claim I misinterpreted about the article are things I never claimed about the article itself but rather my own opinion responding to the article. All of you seem to have some sort of agenda to twist what I said so that you can claim my "credibility is shot" but anyone with half a brain can look at my actual post, instead of your spin and see I didn't say what you have claimed I said.

Oh, and the red queen argument thusly applies in that if you claim I hate Michelle enough times then it must be true. I've explained my criticism of Michelle, but if you don't care to actually listen but rather just spout your crap, go ahead.

No one said you do not explain your criticisms of Michelle, rather, all you do IS criticize her. Nothing is ever a positive statement. It is possible that you watch her with a more critical eye because you do not want her to win? You did say yourself you would rather see anyone but Michelle win...right?

I edited my post to include your exact quote so no one would accuse me of making things up...

Have I somehow tried to hide that ideally, much like the Yankees, I'd rather have anyone win before I'd have Michelle win...it gets boring.

[Rachel]

"Half a brain" is a saying. It is not literal...certainly you know that one, you do teach writing and such don't you (I think I remember you saying something of the sort.)

It's a saying? Really????

:roll:

What on earth indicated to you that I was not aware of that? I am also aware that it is a pejorative saying.

I do indeed teach writing. I also teach Research Writing, Rhetoric, and Argument, as well as other courses.

And I certainly am not claiming you or the others are stupid...but in this specific incident you are not thinking it through properly.

Of course not. Because if I thought it through properly, I would agree with what you are saying, of course.

So you are saying that you summarized Hersh's article accurately? Still?

You see...I have no problem with people disagreeing with my interpretation of the article. I have problem with people making up bogus statements about what I have said. There is a difference between disagreeing with my opinion and disagreeing with what my opinion is.

I quoted you directly and I quoted the article directly. I fail to see where I made anything up. If you did not clearly express what you meant to say, well, *I* can hardly be faulted for that.

I did do a search on Google recently and was amazed to find a self proclaimed group of people who were gushing about Michelle and thus seemed to be Kwan superfans -- and one had a screen name "Rachel".

You can believe me or not as you will, but that was most certainly not me. I am by no means a Kwan superfan, nor did I have any idea that you do any sort of drawings. This is the only board where I post as Rachel; the name is usually taken when I register elsewhere. But I got started on FSW back in 1997 as Rachel and Rachel I have been on Adrian's boards since.

[Skatewind]

A USFSA person IS quoted saying that Michelle might be facing ramifications for her actions.
Some USFSA officials are so upset, they grumble Kwan should retire because her presence allegedly arrests the development of younger U.S. skaters.
How does the above quote from the article turn into a USFSA person being quoted saying that Michelle might be facing ramifications for her actions? I don't understand why there's still an argument about whether or not such a quote is in the article when it is not. And attributing it as such is incorrect. This is a perfect example of what I meant in my previous post.

[Skatewind]

Unbelievable. I hope people will read the actual article for the quote you insist IS there from a USFSA person & decide for themselves. I have no further comment.

[Rachel]

All I ask is that a few impartial posters go back and read the first 15 or so posts in this thread and see if they disagree with me that the near-crazed reaction by a number of people as it has developed the last 15 is maybe a bit extreme.

And who, pray tell, qualifies as an impartial poster? Is there some reason I am not impartial? HSF? Skatewind? md2be? Hannahclear? You?

Are only the people who think you are wrong here near-crazed? If other people come here and say they agree with, say, me, are they near-crazed, too? If posters show up to say that you are right, does that make them impartial?

[prunes89]

what is going on here? I got lost around the 3rd rebuttal. :frus:

[HSF]

Bondo, you talked about not wanting to register to read the article but you clearly stated in your first response, "I didn't want to register but someone sent me the text."

If you had the text, you had it all. You could have "refreshed your mind."

[Rachel]

You want to know why I know I'm right here? Becuase this whole discussion has been essentially about what I meant. Now, you may next claim that you are a psychic and know what I mean as well as I do, but I don't believe in psychics...I happen to think that I know best what I mean when I say things

Once again, I quoted the article and you directly. It wasn't about what you meant, it was about what you actually said. Since I copied and pasted your exact words, I can hardly be accused of putting words in your mouth.

Now, if it really was a case of me not saying clearly then surely when I corrected people on what I meant you would say "oh, that is what you meant" not say "no, you didn't mean this, you meant that." But since you basically did the latter, it appears you simply don't care what I meant because it isn't as opportunistic for you.

If you wanted it to stop, all you had to do is admit that you inaccurately summarized that article (which you did) and/or that you misspoke (which is not something I know about one way or another). But you did neither; all you did was insist that you didn't say anything inaccurate and not once did you make the attempt to say I SAID that but I MEANT that, even when it was pointed out to you that one of the things you said was completely unclear.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, it is utterly pointless...yet another potentially good skating discussion ruined by people feeling they need to antagonize me because I say something that isn't lovey-dovey about Michelle.

Right, because it isn't at all possible that you were wrong about something and got called on it. It's all about Michelle. :roll:

[fadedstardust]

I have some very clear preferences and opinions about skating that have nothing to do with Michelle directly. I happen to think skaters across the board should move on to pros or other ventures after 2 Olympics especially if they are not improving, I think skaters should participate in the GP series if they are healthy, I think there is more to skating than skating clean. It just so happened that Michelle doesn't fit well with my preferences...that isn't based on any specific hatred I have of Michelle...it is either bad luck or her fault. I liked Michelle's skating last decade, but I think it is reasonable to say now that she's stayed around past the two Olympics, stopped fully participating in the skating season, stopped improving technically, etc that she isn't as exciting a skater as she was.

But the thing you and others seem to be forgetting is that- skating isn't a sport that was created to entertain an audience! Sure there's exhibition for that, but as far as competitions, they're televised sure, but the skaters are NOT thinking about you. They're thinking about achieving their goals in the sport. Skating is a very individual sport, and you stay in it to achieve goals, for which Michelle's is Oly gold now. She's probably not spending much time thinking "I hope the audience isn't bored of me..." or "I hope they like this color dress..." she's thinking of HER goals and HER career. You're just watching because someone decided to air it on tv. Shows are for the audience. If Michelle isn't "exciting" to watch in competition anymore, then don't watch her! That doesn't mean she should retire because she's no longer supplying you with a good show- because that's not and never will be any skater's aim while competing. It's her perogative to keep skating even if she's not improving, or deteriorating, it's her right...most skaters don't want the spotlight that comes with this sport, I'm not saying Michelle doesn't, but most skaters don't, and the audience's opinions on a skater's career are pretty much wasted because it's a SPORT and the audience's opinions do NOT matter. And like I said, it's not like she's keeping anyone off the Olympic team- if no one can beat MK to take her Olympic spot at Nationals, they have no chance in hell to beat any of the Japanese ladies anyway, since even MK couldn't last year. So I don't see how or why her sticking around bothers you. I don't enjoy her skating, but I think she's making a GREAT example for younger skaters- that this is a career, a passion, something you stay in as long as you damn please no matter what people say. And I respect her for that.

[prunes89]

I don't agree with Bondo's assessment of skaters needing to move on. It would be unfair. That would leave out Irina, Michelle, Shizuka, and many others. Why would we want to eliminate Sasha's competition? We want her to win fair and square!
This next Olympics will be Sasha's #2. If she doesn't win, will that mean she has to retire? I think NOT! Who are we to say a skater isn't improving? We don't know every weakness a skater has, so there may be improvements that we can't clearly see. Someone that isn't a skater, a judge, a coach, or in other words is an armchair fan, shouldn't be making such odd statements.
I love Sasha. She's my girl, but there are many posters out there that think she has past her prime and needs to give the other younger girls a shot. I think they're ridiculous to even suggest such a thing!
I agree with Hersh. Let the girls beat them before they move on. Otherwise we're in for some BORING skating for the next years to come.

[hiliairyh]

I was thrilled to pay $90 per tickets just to watch MJ a few times in his last couple of seasons. I do not think he made a bad decision.


BTW, instead of harping endlessly on athletes decision to stay in the game, I think it is the fans or the detractors decisions to take the bathroom break when the skaters are on tv, or plain and simple just don't buy the tickets.

[fadedstardust]

Bondo, I totally agree about making comments and sharing opinions about skating, whatever they may be. I enjoy this debatem actually. I guess my point was that sports in general are not "meant" to be shows. Most skaters I know, myself included, don't get into skating for the audience or the exposure factor (and I am a performing arts-oriented person, I just don't think of skating as the place for that sort of stuff unless we're talking shows/exhibitions) the athletes get into the sport because they love it and want to accomplish things. I just think sometimes people think of skating and gymnastics competitions as going to the ballet or something- but dancers choose to be in shows. If a skater wants a medal, they have no choice but to be televised, so even if, say, Michelle wanted to keep competing, and won a certain competition, but thought it'd be more "fair" to show more obscure skaters on tv for the audience to discover, she couldn't do a thing about it. And she's not just going to quit the sport so the public can see new faces.

If new people are good enough to break through the "top" skaters, they will. No one is holding them back. If our best skaters quit after two Olympics and were replaced by skaters who were not even capable of beating them at Nationals, U.S. skating would go into a blackhole. We're have no medals, which means less World spots, and less chances for these new girls to get anywhere. I think our best talent should stay in competitions as long as they can and want to. The future of US skating does rest in the hands of the top skaters, and until someone can BEAT them, there's no one better qualified than them to do the job. And right now these people are Sasha and Michelle. We cannot afford to send immature jumping beans to Worlds or the Olys, I mean what chances would we have against the Russian and Japs if we sent...Danielle Kahle and Kimmie Meissner to Worlds? Yeah, none. Neither would get an artistic mark higher than 5.0 on the international scene. Let the replacements happen naturally- they always do. But there never used to be such a rush for more seasoned competitors to leave the scene before...the audience wanted their favorite to compete forever so they could keep seeing them! I don't understand the attitude of "ok you've won enough stuff, I'm sick of seeing your face, NEXT!!!"
There isn't much of a pro scene right now. Going pros is LIKE quitting. These girls are not anywhere near the age of the past generation's pros. And why isn't anyone telling the GUYS to get out? They're older than the girls. I'm not hearing anyone (or at least not half as much...) talk of Plushenko needing to quit, and yet HE'S very much injured. But Michelle has to. We don't know why. Plush is not as good as he used to be, either. Yet no one is saying he'll never win the Olys. Double-standards, blah.

[loveskating]

Relax Annie, I am a Tara fan, just look at the thread at the poll folder, "who is your favorite lady OGM. I had never criticized her for her decision, so I think she should have done what made her happy (without being criticzed ad nauseum by anti fans and under the pretense that they care) if that meant breaking a contract. How she got into this thread, because you talked about usfsa mad at skaters for declining SA invitation, and I don't think you are critical of Michelle. I remember usfsa was kind of mad at Tara, they made a public statement that they wouldn't hold Tara to the contract, because they did not believe there was any point in making someone do something they didn't want to. Of course I did not remember the exact detail, it was 1998.

Some people here thought usfs should sue Michelle, and that made me associate with the Tara / usfsa contract incident.

No one here said that anyone should sue Michelle! I asked a question about that sort of thing, precisely because I remembered all the talk about suing TARA and I think others did as well. Are you claiming that this is not a legitimate QUESTION to ask when a skater pulls out of confirmed competitions and does not cite injury (if you recall, no mention of any back pain was made at first)? Its part of the territory, isn't it?

A difference between you and me is that I don't blame people who raised the issue as to suing Tara. I'm sure she knew what her legal perogatives were when she withdrew. She was young, but not a baby! At the same time, I'm glad she wasn't sued because the only legitimate issue of concern that her withdrawal raised at that time that was of concern to others was holding those three spots for US ladies and that turned out just fine! For the USFSA to sue her under those circumstances would have been an outrageous evil!

Michelle's 3 withdrawals from the GP Series in order to prepare for Nationals and Worlds sets an example that threatens to destroy or downgrade the GP Series, and in that sense, her actions do have consequences. Therefore, it is a legitimate issue to raise, although so far, no such consequences have materialized. Additionally, it sets her apart from the other competitors, and that has its negative side, as well, which she might find a problem later in her life!

If YOU want to be a gushing type fan, that is fine with me. But you go too far when you so viciously attack others in a personal manner who raise perfectly legitimate issues or questions for DISCUSSION or answers.

[loveskating]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondo
A USFSA person IS quoted saying that Michelle might be facing ramifications for her actions.

Skatewind Quotes actual article:
Some USFSA officials are so upset, they grumble Kwan should retire because her presence allegedly arrests the development of younger U.S. skaters.

Skatewind:"How does the above quote from the article turn into a USFSA person being quoted saying that Michelle might be facing ramifications for her actions? I don't understand why there's still an argument about whether or not such a quote is in the article when it is not. And attributing it as such is incorrect. This is a perfect example of what I meant in my previous post."



Assuming your quote is accurate, then Hersch is clearly saying that he thinks there is now a split in the USFSA over Kwan and the role she has defined for herself and one group thinks she should retire. Furthermore, unlike Bondo's memory, Hersch's statement concerns more than one person, apparently, since Hersch used the PLURAL.

How big, small, influential, deep, irrelevant or meaningful it is he does not state or opine. Could be two people, or ten for all we know! So far, the only "ramification" that can be assumed is that now Kwan has "grumblers" among USFSA officials whereas in the past, apparently she did not.

So Bondo was slightly wrong...there is only one "ramifacation", not "ramifications" in the plural.

Is it true? I don't know. All I know is that Hersch thinks it is true but declines to say anything more about it.

In essence, Bondo was correct.

P.S. Comparing Irina to MK is absurd...Irina has been slapped down by her federation countless times...she has never had a particle of the power that apparently Michelle Kwan has! If Irina does not deliver, she is out in a New York MINUTE...clearly.

[3ggi3]

I don't think the USFSA should react in that way! They should be acting in the best interests of their skaters, and it looks like MK feels that skipping out of the GP series will benefit her. All of these rumours and side notes shouldn't be so important!

[hiliairyh]

Comparing Irina and Michelle is not absurd. Interesting to think people insist on Michelle is powerful with usfsa. I think her ability to back up all her USA medals with a world medal since 1996 speaks volumes

[hiliairyh]

No one knows all the details about Tara and usfsa's contract. If usfsa decline to sue, IMO it is no one business but Tara and usfsa. Michelle declines an invitation, I think if usfsa did not sue Tara, they will not sue Michelle. No one knows whether she actually officially accepted the invitation then pulled out. There are 2 reports, of the exact time.

Michelle's 3 withdrawals from the GP Series
The first 2 times she did not accept the invitation, that is different from withdrawing.


If YOU want to be a gushing type fan, that is fine with me.
Have I ever gushed about any skater? Have I ever said Michelle or Tara are the best. OTOH I have seen plenty of gushing from you.

But you go too far when you so viciously attack others in a personal manner who raise perfectly legitimate issues or questions for DISCUSSION or answers.
Wait a minute, did I ever insult your intellect? "mining the ant intellectual waters" "oppressive to imagine you listen to opera" Really how legitimate is bringing Maria Callas in a figure skating discussion? Raise question is one thing, but imagining character flaws about skaters is another. First attack the skater's character, then rationalize that as "care" I don't think I will react any different whether the skater is Michelle or Tara or Sarah or Sasha.

[3ggi3]

thank you fadedstardust
that about sums it all up
:D
im glad there is an unbiased person in here!

[Rachel]

Assuming your quote is accurate, then Hersch is clearly saying that he thinks there is now a split in the USFSA over Kwan and the role she has defined for herself and one group thinks she should retire. .

All Hersh clearly said was that there were some people in the USFS who were upset and grumbling. He said nothing about a split in the USFS over Kwan. People get upset and grumble all the time without anything ever coming of it. If being upset and grumbling signified a split, the divorce rate would be 100%.

He said nothing about ramifications. He didn't even imply there would be ramifications. If he had wanted to, I'm sure he would have. It's an easy enough thing to do.

All I know is that Hersch thinks it is true but declines to say anything more about it.

All I know is that Hersh thinks there are some USFS members who are upset with Michelle Kwan for withdrawing from the GP and they are grumbling about it. As I cannot read his mind, I know nothing about his opinion on the subject of ramifications, either in the plural or singular sense.

I am most impressed with your psychic abilities, however, although I am quite sure Bondo isn't, since he doesn't like people who tell others what their written word means, as only the author knows for sure. I agree; that's why I think it's very important to stick with what is actually said and not go off on interpretive tangents.

If YOU want to be a gushing type fan, that is fine with me. But you go too far when you so viciously attack others in a personal manner who raise perfectly legitimate issues or questions for DISCUSSION or answers.

I happen to think it's perfectly legitimate to demand that people who are going to cite articles as evidence do so accurately, be they gushing fans or objective observers. YMMV.