Note: U.S. Pairs are probably bad when...

[Kylen15]

You watch videos of U.S. pairs from 1980 at the Olympics and realize that, with the exception of some of the more difficult throws and jumps, they skate just as well.

Hmm...most of the U.S. pairs don't seem to be landing the more difficult throws and jumps. So...

Just a thought here. Meant to be somewhat though-provoking and slightly humourous at the same time.

[doubletoe]

Actually, John Baldwin and Rena Inoue have side-by-side triple lutzes in their program this year which they have already landed in competition. So maybe it will be a more exciting competitive season this year. :)

[Twizzler]

Well maybe the state of US pairs is not so great at the present, but 4 US pairs qualified for the junior grand prix and 2 of the 3 substitutes are from the US.

http://www.isufs.org/events/jgp2004/jgpspairs.htm

But then again, this may speak to the depth and breadth of pairs in the world today.

[schnood]

Well maybe the state of US pairs is not so great at the present, but 4 US pairs qualified for the junior grand prix and 2 of the 3 substitutes are from the US.

http://www.isufs.org/events/jgp2004/jgpspairs.htm

But then again, this may speak to the depth and breadth of pairs in the world today.

For a long time the U.S. has been churning out pairs skaters (and dancers for that matter too) that have done decently on the junior curcuit. The problem is these teams rarely stay together, for whatever reason....

[Kylen15]

It seems there are a few factors to keep in mind:

1) The U.S. has dominate singles skaters. Therefore, less choose pairs and dance.

2) U.S. pairs, for whatever reason, do not seem to stay together for their entire careers. Thus, lack of a quality *pair*.

3) There seems to be such a push for the difficult elements that the pairs are rushing to master them and cannot. Consistency? Perhaps. Mental preparation? Who knows.

Incidentally, the performance that prompted my comment was watching Franks and Bottecilli. This was a decent pair, though lacking in some speed and technical ability. It reminded me of watching many current U.S. pairs.

[jcspkbfan]

Actually, John Baldwin and Rena Inoue have side-by-side triple lutzes in their program this year which they have already landed in competition. So maybe it will be a more exciting competitive season this year. :)

Wow! Has any pairs team ever landed SBS 3-lutzes in competition before? The only other pairs team I can think of who've ever had the technical ability to do it would be Kristi and Rudy in their pairs skating days, but I don't think even they ever attempted it in competition.

[terisalyn]

Actually, John Baldwin and Rena Inoue have side-by-side triple lutzes in their program this year which they have already landed in competition.

I hope to see this at Skate America! Didn't Peter Tchernyshev choreograph their long this year?

[Trillian]

For a long time the U.S. has been churning out pairs skaters (and dancers for that matter too) that have done decently on the junior curcuit. The problem is these teams rarely stay together, for whatever reason....

Uh, none of the Russian, Canadian and European pairs tend to stay together with their partners from the junior level either. Most successful teams don't get together until they're in their late teens or early 20s--younger kids almost always grow apart for a variety of reasons. Just look at the top two teams from each of the last two Olympics, and most of the other top pairs in the world besides Shen & Zhao (who have an unusual background in general). I'm baffled that people always insist that the problem in the U.S. is teams breaking up. It's not. Most countries besides China don't have any better a track record than the U.S. in keeping teams together in the long term, so people need to start looking beyond that.

Personally, I think a portion of the problem in some cases is this idea that teams should never break up, in fact. Yes, it's a bad idea in some cases. In other cases, staying together is a bad idea, yet they don't split because of this misguided idea that breaking up is always a bad move. I'm not saying that's common, but I do think it happens. However, personally, I think the vast majority of teams who do split, for one reason or another, probably wouldn't have been successful in the long term anyway.

Sorry if I sound a little cranky, but this misconception about U.S. pairs skating always bugs me because much of the recent history of pairs skating worldwide contradicts it.

[Oracle]

Considering that John Baldwin can't land a triple toe cleanly in competition I will be amazed if he can land a triple lutz. Another factor is that Baldwin is now 31 yrs. old. Sorry, I'm shaking my head. I look to the younger US teams.

[jss]

I still think Don & Hunt are going to break through and be the best team in the US. If they hadn't lost all that training time last year because of injury I think they would have been on the World team.

[3Loop3Loop]

Actually, I thought I read somewhere that Jennifer Don was injured recently and pulled out of a singles comp as a result? Maybe there was loss of training time this year also? I love Don/Hunt tho and think they have wonderful potential. Hope that some day they fulfill it.

[SkateFan123]

Actually, I thought I read somewhere that Jennifer Don was injured recently and pulled out of a singles comp as a result? Maybe there was loss of training time this year also? I love Don/Hunt tho and think they have wonderful potential. Hope that some day they fulfill it.
She was injured during the summer. I don't know if she is back in competition form but they are listed for Skate America so I suspect we'll know soon.

Our Junior Champs, Jordan/Barrett, will not be eligible for international comps for several years due to her age. Too bad, they have potential. Without a rule change, I hope they have staying power. I suspect there will be a rule change, however. (Just my humble opinion based on nothing else.)

[sunshine21]

The last i saw don/hunt, she can do trl sal and toe and sometimes they aren't all that consistent. With the way the Chinese and Japanese teams are doing, they would have to get more jump content to contend with those top teams.

[what?meworry?]

...Personally, I think a portion of the problem in some cases is this idea that teams should never break up, in fact. Yes, it's a bad idea in some cases. In other cases, staying together is a bad idea, yet they don't split because of this misguided idea that breaking up is always a bad move. I'm not saying that's common, but I do think it happens. However, personally, I think the vast majority of teams who do split, for one reason or another, probably wouldn't have been successful in the long term anyway.
Sorry if I sound a little cranky, but this misconception about U.S. pairs skating always bugs me because much of the recent history of pairs skating worldwide contradicts it.
i know this is ot in that this is a pairs thread, but i think that everything you have said about the pairs counts a lot for dance, too.
with the exception of belbin/agosto and now possibly matthews/zavozin, most successful dance couples got together after a number of lower level partnerships andor entering senior. just staying together for lotsa, lotsa, years helps, but is not a measure of long term significant success (as in senior international).
a really good physical, talent, temperment, and drive match is, i would think, really important. and that isn't always found early on.
it ain't easy bein' pairs and dance! they need luck and timing as well as talent and match.

[anoymous1]

you do have a point about the state of pairs and also having the us being stronger in junior and not lasting in seniors. Just look back to the 2001 Jr. Grand Prix Final when an unheard of 4 US pair teams(Roth/Mcphearson,Ganaba's,Magurian/Guzman,Dean/Murphy) made it to the final in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eight position. Look three years later, not a single one is still together and four out of the eight have retired from competitive skating :frus: . I never believed your results if you win or "make it" in juniors would guarntee you would win in seniors. Its if you have the patience and confidence in knowing your time will come to succeed, that is what is missing in today's skating. However, that's not the only problem and I may be wrong but I am just showing an example.