Kwan's Back Injury is Official

[PAskate]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041014.whali14/BNStory/Sports/


Not good news, but I'm glad to see that she did make the right decision to rest and heal rather than skate the GP events.

[dbny]

I hope it's nothing serious and that rest can do the trick.

[Alexa]

I see it more as an issue with the fact that she did not mention the back injury in her initial announcement. There would have been a lot less speculation about her withdrawal.

That said, I do hope her back heals quickly.

[doubletoe]

It's okay, Bondo, Michelle Kwan is just a figure skater, not a presidential candidate, so even if she's making up an injury of mass distraction, well . . . so what, LOL! ;)

[loveskating]

Well, the article did not say she was injured. It said she had pain. We will see if the pain is from an injury, not just a pulled muscle or muscles (not regarded as an INJURY by workers compensation, for instance).

An injury would be a tear in a muscle or a fracture or break of a bone in the back or lower back.

Pain would stop someone from competing in ONE competition, or perhaps two, while an INJURY might keep them out the entire season.

If Michelle Kwan has an INJURY to her back, she is not likely to be able to skate at Nationals because she is going to be off that ice for some time to come.

A back injury is not like a fractured big toe. Even small back injuries of only the muscles, not a bone, usually result in about six weeks flat on the back.

[loveskating]

I see it more as an issue with the fact that she did not mention the back injury in her initial announcement. There would have been a lot less speculation about her withdrawal.

That said, I do hope her back heals quickly.

Hmm. Wonder why she didn't? One could speculate that Skate Canada told her "show up or you are going to be sued" so now its pain in the back (the article did not even use the word injury...every sort of back injury, as well as what is degenerative or "odd" is known medically, thanks to the constant personal injury law suits, and so one cannot get away with saying they are "in pain" in a legal setting any more.

ANyone know if Skate Canada has legal rights, and if so, do they play hard ball? It would explain why the change in the story. I know if I'd contracted for Kwan, and she made the announcement she made, I'd see my lawyer immediately.

[The Village Idiot]

It's okay, Bondo, Michelle Kwan is just a figure skater, not a presidential candidate, so even if she's making up an injury of mass distraction, well . . . so what, LOL! ;)
LOL! Thanks for the laugh!

[danibellerika]

It's okay, Bondo, Michelle Kwan is just a figure skater, not a presidential candidate, so even if she's making up an injury of mass distraction, well . . . so what, LOL! ;)

That gave me a needed laugh. Thanks! :lol:

[Tapper]

I hope that her injury is not serious and that she is able to stay in good condition.

[MissJ]

Does anyone know (if there is one) what the ISU deadline is for accepting or declining the GP invites? Michelle didn't withdraw due to injury. According to the USFSA site she has declined her invitation and this areticle also doesn't use the word withdraw in relation to Michelle, only Plushenko. There is major difference legally if Michelle never officially accepted the invites and has now decided to decline verses accepting the invitation and withdrawing w/o providing a adequate reason. I find it more odd that a reason for Plushenko's withdrawn is not given, despite the article we all ready earlier.

[sk8er1964]

It's okay, Bondo, Michelle Kwan is just a figure skater, not a presidential candidate, so even if she's making up an injury of mass distraction, well . . . so what, LOL! ;)

:lol: :bow:

[Kemy]

It is rather a case of the Boy Who Cried Wolf though since she has avoided the GP series for two years with no strong reason before finally having a reason but due to the past two years that reason not being as trustworthy. She obviously shouldn't skate injured, but it highlights the error of her past decisions that one has to be cynical.

That's an extremely odd comparison. If it were truly "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" she would have claimed injury in 2002/3 to skip out and then was proven not to be injured and then same for 2003/4. Then this year when she claims injury, nobody believes her.

Not claiming injury as a reason for the past two years of coasting makes it more believable this year because her past behavior doesn't say that she gives excuses for skipping out other than that she doesn't want to do it.

But I don't think it's official official until we see a quote from either Michelle, her manager, or her coach. Oh...and if her back pain is bad enough to keep her from doing a layback for a month, then it IS serious enough to keep her out of competitions with short programs that require laybacks.

[Debbie S]

ANyone know if Skate Canada has legal rights, and if so, do they play hard ball? It would explain why the change in the story. I know if I'd contracted for Kwan, and she made the announcement she made, I'd see my lawyer immediately.

Federations hosting GP events don't "contract" for skaters. Seeded skaters, like Michelle Kwan, are assigned to events by the ISU, and the remaining skaters are invited by the host federations from lists of skaters eligible for GP assignments by their nat'l federation. I'm sure that the ISU gets input from host feds and LOCs, and probably the skaters feds, when deciding where to assign seeded skaters, but the presence of particular skaters at specific GP events is not guaranteed. In fact, every competition and show lists a disclaimer on tickets and other materials noting that entries may change due to "injury or other unforeseen circumstances".

This situation is no different from any other GP withdrawals this season or in past seasons, or the withdrawals that inevitably occur at the World Champs held right after the Olys. There is no legal recourse available for anyone in this matter.

[magicladi]

Pain in the back is usually conducive to an injury starting. If Kwan skated, she could truly injure her back and put herself out for the season. She specifically stated that she couldn't complete the entire revolutions on the layback because she hadn't done a layback in a month due to pain. That's what KWAN said. Now because there is no specific quote in an article we shouldn't believe it? Ok, that's cool.

But remember you don't have back pain for no reason. You can injure your back without straining/pulling/tearing your muscles or slipping a disc or anything of the sort. And not all back pain/injuries knock you flat on your back unless they are severe. I know this because I injured my back several years ago. At that time it was severe. Now the slightest wrong move can cause pain to a healed injury.

So I choose to believe she is truly having problems with her back at this time. That would make this a wise decision.

[Samskate]

Magicladi, ITA with what you said. Having had a problem with my back a number of years ago, I know you sometimes just have to "baby" it along for a while and not do anything to either aggravate the condition or reinjure it. So I think Michelle made the right decision. Hopefully, with some rest and careful training, the problem will be resolved and she can continue to skate in comps later in the season.

It sounds like you may have had a problem similar to mine. It truly amazed me how everyday movements that we don't even think about could really hurt!

[BarbraM]

It's okay, Bondo, Michelle Kwan is just a figure skater, not a presidential candidate, so even if she's making up an injury of mass distraction, well . . . so what, LOL! ;)


Made me smile from ear to ear!!!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Michelle must be a Republican, otherwise Bondo would have said she was telling the truth, no matter what anyone else says :lol: :lol: :lol:

[NJSk8Fan]

All I can say is if Michelle truly has a back problem, I hope it isn't serious. Back problems are no picnic and can be on-going. My husband has back problems and it's not so much the heavy lifting that hurts it, but the twisting motion.

[loveskating]

Pain in the back is usually conducive to an injury starting. If Kwan skated, she could truly injure her back and put herself out for the season. She specifically stated that she couldn't complete the entire revolutions on the layback because she hadn't done a layback in a month due to pain. That's what KWAN said. Now because there is no specific quote in an article we shouldn't believe it? Ok, that's cool.

But remember you don't have back pain for no reason. You can injure your back without straining/pulling/tearing your muscles or slipping a disc or anything of the sort. And not all back pain/injuries knock you flat on your back unless they are severe. I know this because I injured my back several years ago. At that time it was severe. Now the slightest wrong move can cause pain to a healed injury.

So I choose to believe she is truly having problems with her back at this time. That would make this a wise decision.

Then she specifically changed her story, and one wonders why.

Also, if she does not know the source of her problem, then, like Sasha when she had a back injury, Michelle would wait to see what the doctors say, or would have canceled Skate America only...remember how Sasha, who wanted to compete, went to Nationals and was in so much pain she had to withdraw? Sasha pushed it with her back injury....Michelle doesn't even have a known injury!

You are mistaken on the back pain issue...people do have back pain for no reason, just as the placebo effect exists in drug trials. If you think your back hurts, it can hurt. Its even got a name, "subjective findings". The cure, however, is psychological, not medical. I do think, however, that there is much "we" do not know, and that not all back pain that is curable is understood to be...accupuncture, for instance, helps so-called "incurable" back pain tremendiously.

Otherwise, as I am a corporate legal secretary, I see thousands of personal injury cases in great detail against corporations and I assure you, almost all back pain has a known, specific source and is known to be either curable or incurable at the present time.

That you would assume Kwan's situation is outside that realm is speculatioin, at this point (not to mention possibly dooming her to an incurable problem).

So, again, if she has a real back injury, it is not likely that she will be at US Nationals or Worlds.

[SkateFan123]

You are mistaken on the back pain issue...people do have back pain for no reason, just as the placebo effect exists in drug trials. If you think your back hurts, it can hurt. Its even got a name, "subjective findings". The cure, however, is psychological, not medical. I do think, however, that there is much "we" do not know, and that not all back pain that is curable is understood to be...accupuncture, for instance, helps so-called "incurable" back pain tremendiously.

Otherwise, as I am a corporate legal secretary, I see thousands of personal injury cases in great detail against corporations and I assure you, almost all back pain has a known, specific source and is known to be either curable or incurable at the present time.

That you would assume Kwan's situation is outside that realm is speculatioin, at this point (not to mention possibly dooming her to an incurable problem).

So, again, if she has a real back injury, it is not likely that she will be at US Nationals or Worlds.
Since you are not a doctor, how can you even remotely claim to know if MK's problem is medical or mental? Many pain problems results in "subjective findings" since absense of any test confirming the problem, the findings regarding pain are often subject. As legal secretary, I'm sure you've seen many lawsuits regarding that. That does not mean the pain is not real.

Since I am not a doctor and even if I were, I wouldn't have MK's medical records to base an opinion, I'll withhold stating an uneducated and inappropriate medical opinion regarding MK.

I'll assume that since MK has been relatively injury free for so many years and that since she expressed a desire to compete in the GP this year and has withdrawn, I'll assume that she is experiencing pain that will keep her from doing a required element as she says. I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. I never doubted any skaters claim of pain. I hope the rest of you take the same approach and not bash Michele over this.

I will be going to Skate American and Skate Canada. I planned the trips to see Michele's Bolero. I disappointed that she won't be there but I hope she recovers and is back on track with her training soon!

[Samskate]

Well said, Skatefan123! :bow:

[loveskating]

Since you are not a doctor, how can you even remotely claim to know if MK's problem is medical or mental? Many pain problems results in "subjective findings" since absense of any test confirming the problem, the findings regarding pain are often subject. As legal secretary, I'm sure you've seen many lawsuits regarding that. That does not mean the pain is not real.

Since I am not a doctor and even if I were, I wouldn't have MK's medical records to base an opinion, I'll withhold stating an uneducated and inappropriate medical opinion regarding MK.

I'll assume that since MK has been relatively injury free for so many years and that since she expressed a desire to compete in the GP this year and has withdrawn, I'll assume that she is experiencing pain that will keep her from doing a required element as she says. I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. I never doubted any skaters claim of pain. I hope the rest of you take the same approach and not bash Michele over this.

I will be going to Skate American and Skate Canada. I planned the trips to see Michele's Bolero. I disappointed that she won't be there but I hope she recovers and is back on track with her training soon!

Oh, I'm not saying that I know...much less that Michelle's pain is not real -- to the contrary, I'm just saying that calling her problem an injury when it might be far less that that is pure speculation...and perhaps rather self serving speculation at that!

I'm sure we can all agree and hope that Michelle Kwan is not actually INJURED, that her problems are merely of the strains and sprain type.

PS. Nope. In NY to sue you have to have EVIDENCE of a real injury; no complaints of pain will suffice without objective findings. There is even a threshold so that the injury has to be a serious one, not a minor injury. As to sprains and strains, forget it.

[Tapper]

My theory is that people who do not have back pain haven't got a leg to stand on when it comes to telling people with back pain that they aren't experiencing it or how they should behave. If I had a headache (or a backache) and someone told me it was my imagination... well, sorry, but I think I know better what I'm feeling than someone else does.

I know that some people think they "know you better than you know yourself," but actually that's just an attempt at manipulation.

Just because Sasha Coen wanted to skate with pain in her back doesn't mean that it's a wise idea to do it. Abusing your body when it's telling you it needs to heal is not exemplary behavior for an athlete... or for anyone for that matter.

For those of you who have back pain... please tell me, do you ever run into the situation where you have to deal with people who do not believe that you are in pain? I know that people can look fine, but be totally debilitated by the pain. Some people evidently don't understand that.

[SkateFan123]

My theory is that people who do not have back pain haven't got a leg to stand on when it comes to telling people with back pain that they aren't experiencing it or how they should behave. If I had a headache (or a backache) and someone told me it was my imagination... well, sorry, but I think I know better what I'm feeling than someone else does.

I know that some people think they "know you better than you know yourself," but actually that's just an attempt at manipulation.

Just because Sasha Coen wanted to skate with pain in her back doesn't mean that it's a wise idea to do it. Abusing your body when it's telling you it needs to heal is not exemplary behavior for an athlete... or for anyone for that matter.

For those of you who have back pain... please tell me, do you ever run into the situation where you have to deal with people who do not believe that you are in pain? I know that people can look fine, but be totally debilitated by the pain. Some people evidently don't understand that.The thought of Sasha skating with her particular injury made me cringe. I'm glad it worked out for her. I'm very glad she did not compete against doctors orders. Further injury could have kept her from reaching her potential. The same is true with Michele. Hopefully with the proper care and therapy, she'll be back in time for Portland.

Good analogy with the headache!

Someone please tell loveskating that strains and sprains ARE injuries!

[magicladi]

Then she specifically changed her story, and one wonders why.

Also, if she does not know the source of her problem, then, like Sasha when she had a back injury, Michelle would wait to see what the doctors say, or would have canceled Skate America only...remember how Sasha, who wanted to compete, went to Nationals and was in so much pain she had to withdraw? Sasha pushed it with her back injury....Michelle doesn't even have a known injury!

You are mistaken on the back pain issue...people do have back pain for no reason, just as the placebo effect exists in drug trials. If you think your back hurts, it can hurt. Its even got a name, "subjective findings". The cure, however, is psychological, not medical. I do think, however, that there is much "we" do not know, and that not all back pain that is curable is understood to be...accupuncture, for instance, helps so-called "incurable" back pain tremendiously.

Otherwise, as I am a corporate legal secretary, I see thousands of personal injury cases in great detail against corporations and I assure you, almost all back pain has a known, specific source and is known to be either curable or incurable at the present time.

That you would assume Kwan's situation is outside that realm is speculatioin, at this point (not to mention possibly dooming her to an incurable problem).

So, again, if she has a real back injury, it is not likely that she will be at US Nationals or Worlds.

Tapper, I can tell you that it's annoying to be in pain and have someone tell you that you don't look like you're feeling pain. But since some people know everything, it's safe to assume they know what you're feeling.

As a corporate legal secretary, loveskating, you have a lot more to learn about back pain. It is not always a known, specific source in the beginning. You do not know what is causing the pain, what specific area has been injured or if it is truly injured until you go through rigorous test by a doctor. That you would assume that Kwan's situation is anything other than what she said when interviewed at Campbell's is pure speculation on your part as well. The point is we are not privy to her medical records, to her doctor, to her trainer, to anything that has to do with this.

"Subjective findings" has nothing to do with "medical" findings. That's legalese and you know it. And believe me I have had an injury lawyer, one of the best in our state, explain all of this to me and my family. Until you walk in anyone's shoes who has dealt with consistent back pain leftover from an injury or a pre-existing condition, you haven't got a clue. It isn't psychological by any means. And it's been said that once you do something to your back whether small or large, that pain is with you over the least little twist of your body. That's why there are chiropractors.

I just disagree with your assessment, loveskating, since I am one of those who lives with chronic back pain caused by my sciatica nerve. But it's okay to disagree with each other.

[robertp]

There is an alternative to the subjective findings comments about chronic LBP of unknown origin, especially as it relates to an old injury. It is a new finding by a PT in San Diego that the body has primal reflexes that can override the nervous system and be a cause of these recurrent pains.

The reflexes are startle reflex, palmar reflex (think baby and touching the palm) and plantar reflex (think stepping on a tack response) among the many that can influence pain syndromes. It is a very powerful finding and has some amazing results/responses to chronic pain and muscle tightness.

Given the repetitive nature of the jumps, it is possible that her plantar reflex is "upreguladed" and sending pain signals to the brain. Something to consider.
I would be happy to provide more info.

[Buzzing84]

An odd thing to note is that Sasha had trouble with the layback the year she was injured. She competed in two GP events and in 4 programs didn't once do a layback, but rather a sideways leaning spin. She too must have been feeling pain months before she ever withdrew from nationals.

[AxelAnnie22]

First, let me say:

1. I fully acknowledge that Michelle is quite within her rights as a human being to do whatever she wants as long as it is legal, and doesn't hurt others.

2. Michelle is the best judge of her physical condition and abilities.

3. There is a difference between back pain (which can be general and non-specific "I slept funny", or "I worked too hard on my whatever spin), and injury (I went up, came down, and landed funny and here is where it hurts, and here is the cause and course of treatment). I think this is the point LoveSkating was making.

Here are some things I don't understand, or that I have a problem with.

1. If Michelle was having back pain, and it was limiting her ability to train (i.e. her statement that she hadn't been able to practice her layback for a month"), then she had to know she was "ify" for both SA and SC. Knowing she was having a problem, she:

A. Allowed her manager to confirm her attendance at both SA and SC prior to her competition at Campbells.
B. Kept quite about her pain/injury, allowing fans to continue to buy tickets to SA and SC without knowing that she might not show up.
C. Skated at Campbells - which obviously was not good for her back.
D. Issues a dishonest statement (or allows one to be issued on her behalf) about the reason for her pulling out of two very important ISU events.
E. Goes on about her merry business apparantly without repercussion (and those of us who remember the treatment Nicole Bobek received after she was injured in a tour, and wanted a medical bye from the USFSA later would probably agree that Michelle is being treated differently).

I think it all is thoughtless (at best) on Michelle's part.








.

[skaternum]

Ooh, finally a topic that's got a hot button for me. :twisted: Okay, maybe 2 hot buttons.

loveskating is absolutely out to lunch with the statements about back pain. Unfortunately, that's pretty common for people who have never experienced back pain. I know I never fully understood or appreciated what it can do to your life until I experienced it myself. It took over a *year* for the medical experts to figure out what was causing mine -- after seeing every specialist known to man (orthopedist, neurologist, rheumatologist, gynecologist, chiropractor, etc.) and having a lot of nasty tests (including the fun EMT where they stick needles into your muscles and fire them up with electricity to test your muscle response and MRIs) and injections (cortisone directly into the SI joint!). Nope, nobody had a clue or a diagnosis, but holy crap, did my back hurt! Finally a good PT came up with a biomechanical problem that is treatable -- after over a year. Huh, what do you know? It wasn't all in my head. Every specialist who was unable to diagnose my problem acknowledged to me that sometimes you just can't pinpoint a cause.

So forgive us if your job as a legal secretary handling paperwork <snort> doesn't make us buy your medical opinions. Besides, in this case, we're not talking about a freakin' malpractice suit or personal injury suit. It's a skater who withdrew from a skating competition because her back hurts. Jeez Louise, why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory or some evil deed on Michelle's part?

[Tessie]

I don't think this back issue is anything new. Does anyone recall Peggy Flemming commenting on MK's layback in 1999 or 2000 when MK started her layback where her arms go behind? I do; PF said that an extended leg hurts her back.

For you less than limber over 35 skaters, have you done a spiral and really tried to raise your leg - you feel it in your back.

Give her a break will you! If you are in pain, you only hold back and risk further injury.

[liljimeo]

All I can say is that if I were in her skates, and I did not want to skate in an event, I would probably say something is hurting before I would say I just don't feel like it. lol.
Who is to say her back isn't or wasn't hurting when she made the official statement.?.
For those of you who follow tennis, Serena Williams and a few others are notorious for withdrawing from tournaments for this and that reason, but have been in the fashion and entertainment scene at the same time of the said event.. Claiming injury gets tennis players out of being fined for not showing up. Skaters don't have that policy, the money is just not flowing around like it is in tennis for promotional stuff, so I guess my point is that Michelle doesn't have to say anything; however, it could be looked at as like when we normal everyday people say we're sick to a boss or what have you when we really just wanted to watch the GP Short programs that don't end until almost 2:30 am on ESPN2.. catching up on our sleep.. you know. lol

[Tigger]

Just because Sasha Cohen wanted to skate with pain in her back doesn't mean that it's a wise idea to do it. Abusing your body when it's telling you it needs to heal is not exemplary behavior for an athlete... or for anyone for that matter.

Well said!! That's the big problem I had w/Elvis skating in Nagano. I never saw that as heroic or gusty. Incredably stupid and foolish over one's health, yes. I also hated the example it gave. That it doesn't matter how badly you're hurting or the injury is, an Olympic medal means more than your health. He was never the same after Nagano and why Doug Leigh or someone else didn't sit him down and try to talk some sense into him...

Sorry, but that particular example makes me see red every time. BTW, for those who will be jumping on me for "trashing" Elvis's good name, that's *my* opinion up there and it's the only time I don't admire something he did during his skating career. Truth, he's not my favourite skater, but even if my favourite skater did something like that I'd have the same opinion. That skating w/a severe injury that will have a likely impact on the rest of your life if you go ahead and skate is a stupid and foolish thing to do.

For those of you who have back pain... please tell me, do you ever run into the situation where you have to deal with people who do not believe that you are in pain? I know that people can look fine, but be totally debilitated by the pain. Some people evidently don't understand that.

No, they don't. I have chronic debilitating abdominal pain and while I might look good, that doesn't mean I feel good or can work. I would love to get out of this house, from my parents and start looking for work, but combine this w/my other medical challenges...No one's going to want to take a chance on me in the workplace. I hate that, but...There's one cousin who is constantly after me for not doing more when there's nothing wrong w/me. They don't put someone on Percocet for maintence for nothing.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

I'm glad to see Michelle's not taking any chances and is going to take the steps needed to look after her back pain. I wish her a speedy recovery.

[Tessie]

:roll: I wonder what these threads would look like if Michelle did participate in the GP events. The tables would turn and posters would be saying that Michelle shouldn't participate, she should give others a chance in front of international judges.....MK is getting greedy....yada yada yada. The girl can't win. :frus: :frus: :frus:

She is entitled to make a decision, she is not an indentured servant.

[doubletoe]

I personally like Michelle Kwan and want for her whatever she wants for herself, but I think she (or her father, who still calls the shots) made a little strategic error in dealing with the press.

I think Axel Annie summed the situation up very well. It's a mystery why Michelle initially gave a purely practical/strategic reason for passing on the Grand Prix events and later gave a completely different reason (the back pain). Either or both reasons could be absolutely true; it was simply a bad move to give two different reasons because that always makes people speculate. . . as evidenced by this thread! We must all be pretty starved for mental stimulation, LOL!

[Tessie]

I've never once seen anyone suggest that Michelle should not participate in an event (unless in the broader statement of saying she should retire.) I think you make huge assumptions about the motives of those being critical of Michelle. Maybe you should consider that Michelle maybe has done something deserving of criticism with her decisions the past three years. Ever consider maybe it is a result of what is being done and not who is doing it that is drawing the criticism?

I was just hypothecating what the postings would look like. There have been such postings that MK should retire and go pro and give others a chance etc..... Maybe not those that have posted on this thread and I was not accusing those who were posting on this thread that they would say such things. But there is the proclivity for those who do not like her or those who are sympathetic and don't want to see her fail (i.e. rather see her quit while on top) that would rather see her retire.

[icedancer2]

I was just hypothecating what the postings would look like.


Hypothecating? LOL :lol:

Hypothecate - To pledge (property) as security or collateral for a debt without transfer of title or possession.

I love this forum! thanks for the laugh. :bow:

[Debbie S]

Here are some things I have a problem with:


A. Allowed her manager to confirm her attendance at both SA and SC prior to her competition at Campbells.

Perhaps Michelle was being hopeful, or maybe was even told by a doctor that the pain would go away in time to compete at SA and SC. Since we aren't flies on the wall in Michelle's house and/or follow her wherever she goes, none of us can say what went on in Michelle's life that influenced her and her manager's decision.


B. Kept quite about her pain/injury, allowing fans to continue to buy tickets to SA and SC without knowing that she might not show up.

Well, of course she kept quiet about her injury during the summer/early fall - would you want your health problems to be splashed all over the news and the Internet and have people debating your preparedness for comps and your future? Was Michelle supposed to send out a press release saying she might have an injury that would prevent her from doing some of her comps? Of course not.

And as for fans buying tickets, I hope everyone here realizes that skaters are never guaranteed to be at a particular competition. I don't know about SC, but tix for SA went on sale the Monday after last year's SA. For all we knew then, Michelle could have retired by now and gone off to join SOI. Even after assignments were made, everyone knows that skaters can withdraw from events at any time. It's happened with Yagudin, Sarah H, Plushenko, and others.


C. Skated at Campbells - which obviously was not good for her back.

Michelle was under contract (as in paid by the USFSA) to compete at Campbell's. Plus, she and Rafael could adjust the program to make it easier on her back - no layback. After all, if she'd have withdrawn, I'm sure we'd see just as much harping going on here - geez, Michelle just can't win, can she?


D. Issues a dishonest statement (or allows one to be issued on her behalf) about the reason for her pulling out of two very important ISU events.

Huh? In the USFSA's release, Michelle said she was pulling out of SA and SC b/c she felt that skipping the GP had "served her body well", or something like that, for the past 2 years. The article everyone here is referring to was in a Canadian newspaper. I don't see how the info in the article conflicts with the earlier release - it just goes into more detail. Perhaps the reporter called up Michelle and asked her more detailed questions or, more likely, the USFSA knows the reason and didn't want to directly mention an injury for fear that it would lead to rampant speculation and criticism, like in this thread. The USFSA does have an obligation as part of its mission to protect and enhance the image of its elite skaters.


E. Goes on about her merry business apparantly without repercussion (and those of us who remember the treatment Nicole Bobek received after she was injured in a tour, and wanted a medical bye from the USFSA later would probably agree that Michelle is being treated differently).

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how these situations are comparable. As we know, skaters withdraw from GP events all the time. The USFSA certainly didn't throw a fit when Sarah H withdrew from her GPs 2 years ago. The GPs are not a qualifier for any future competition. Bobek wanted to be sent to Worlds w/o having competed at Nats b/c she chose to tour that December rather than recover from an injury and as a result, made the injury worse. I'm pretty sure that if Bobek had stayed home and recuperated and still couldn't compete, she would have gotten the bye. Michelle is not planning a tour, she wants to rest.

In fact, I'm sure the USFSA is happy that Michelle is focusing on staying healthy for the most important events of the season, those being Nats and Worlds, rather than risk her long-term health by doing the GP series which, let's face it, was created solely to give Oly-eligible skaters a lucrative competitive opportunity and keep them from wanting to turn pro.

[loveskating]

Tapper, I can tell you that it's annoying to be in pain and have someone tell you that you don't look like you're feeling pain. But since some people know everything, it's safe to assume they know what you're feeling.

As a corporate legal secretary, loveskating, you have a lot more to learn about back pain. It is not always a known, specific source in the beginning. You do not know what is causing the pain, what specific area has been injured or if it is truly injured until you go through rigorous test by a doctor. That you would assume that Kwan's situation is anything other than what she said when interviewed at Campbell's is pure speculation on your part as well. The point is we are not privy to her medical records, to her doctor, to her trainer, to anything that has to do with this.

"Subjective findings" has nothing to do with "medical" findings. That's legalese and you know it. And believe me I have had an injury lawyer, one of the best in our state, explain all of this to me and my family. Until you walk in anyone's shoes who has dealt with consistent back pain leftover from an injury or a pre-existing condition, you haven't got a clue. It isn't psychological by any means. And it's been said that once you do something to your back whether small or large, that pain is with you over the least little twist of your body. That's why there are chiropractors.

I just disagree with your assessment, loveskating, since I am one of those who lives with chronic back pain caused by my sciatica nerve. But it's okay to disagree with each other.

Well, your sciatica nerve problem is medically known and quite serious, I recognize that. I know someone who benefitted greatly from accuupuncture for that, BTW, along with careful diet.

If everyone wants to jump to the conclusion that Kwan has a serious back injury, I could care less, let them! I never said she was not experiencing back pain. What kind of an idiot would say that unless they had personal knowledge to that effect? I hope she doesn't have a real injury, is all. If she does have a serious back injury, or something like you have, then its not likely she will be skating the rest of this year.

As for the definitions, that's a different subject by now, and those interested might search some NY law sites...for instance, legally, in NY State, soft tissue injuries like bruises, sprains and strains (not cuts) are not considered "serious injuries" under the law when it comes to sueing others. Under NY State law, you have to have some disc bulges, fractures etc. to claim a serious injury. Obviously, that law has NOTHING to do with Michelle Kwan, but it can shed light on how the law in some places might look at injuries.

I was just trying to provide a more objective standard since I thought people were jumping to hysterical conclusions about MK's situation. But if they prefer doing that, who cares? I don't.

[loveskating]

Here are some things I don't understand, or that I have a problem with.

1. If Michelle was having back pain, and it was limiting her ability to train (i.e. her statement that she hadn't been able to practice her layback for a month"), then she had to know she was "ify" for both SA and SC. Knowing she was having a problem, she:

A. Allowed her manager to confirm her attendance at both SA and SC prior to her competition at Campbells.
B. Kept quite about her pain/injury, allowing fans to continue to buy tickets to SA and SC without knowing that she might not show up.
C. Skated at Campbells - which obviously was not good for her back.
D. Issues a dishonest statement (or allows one to be issued on her behalf) about the reason for her pulling out of two very important ISU events.
E. Goes on about her merry business apparantly without repercussion (and those of us who remember the treatment Nicole Bobek received after she was injured in a tour, and wanted a medical bye from the USFSA later would probably agree that Michelle is being treated differently).

I think it all is thoughtless (at best) on Michelle's part.. "

Well said.

I recall the way Nicole was treated...she was denied a bye after she withdrew from the LP due to a foot injury, despite the fact she was the Worlds bronze medalist. You might also have mentioned that poor Tara was bashed to smithereens for withdrawing from Worlds after the Olympics, but with more like weeks rather than days for notice, including by known USFSA posters! THen poor Angela was bashed to smithereens for being in Poland at her grandmom's where there was no telephone; then Tonia Kwiatkowski saved the day, taking Tara's place, and got a standing ovation for it.

Repercussions? For Michelle Kwan? It is said she is "teflon" but I suspect now that instead, she is addicted to high risk. If so, then there is a pattern of behavior and consequences and I hope that she is able to stop herself (with help) before things get totally out of hand.

[mom2boys]

Sprains and strains are injuries to the back! So are a myriad of other diagnoses, with diagnoses codes recognized by major medical insurance companies for payment of services rendered.

I respect that loveskating has been a corporate legal secretary for many years. I have been a physical therapist for 25 years and have treated many people with back pain. It is a misnomer to say, because the workers comp law of a state says, that back injuries are defined so narrowly. It is easier to diagnose certain ailments because of the advent of many diagnostic tests. But that isn't to say that a sprained ligament (of which there are dozens in the back) or a strained muscle (again, dozens in the back)isn't an injury. There are also joint capsules (again, dozens!) that can be injured. These can be tested for by a skilled clinician using objective tests, but not show up on an x-ray, EMG or MRI. That doesn't negate them as diagnoses of injury, it just indicates the lack of that type of diagnostic testing.

[Kemy]

I recall the way Nicole was treated...she was denied a bye after she withdrew from the LP due to a foot injury, despite the fact she was the Worlds bronze medalist.

Well...She had had the injury before Nationals and had tried to skate on it during Nationals. She had also had the injury before touring with Nutcracker on Ice and the USFSA found that, if she was well enough to skate during the entire tour, then she was well enough to earn her place on the World's team like everyone else. Who knows what will happen if Michelle ends up showing up with her back pain at Nationals and doens't make it the legitimate way. Nationals is pretty far away though, as is the next cheesefest, so maybe her pain will go away by then.\

Repercussions? For Michelle Kwan? It is said she is "teflon" but I suspect now that instead, she is addicted to high risk. If so, then there is a pattern of behavior and consequences and I hope that she is able to stop herself (with help) before things get totally out of hand.
Sorry but this makes no sense.

[phoenixxx]

Repercussions? For Michelle Kwan? It is said she is "teflon" but I suspect now that instead, she is addicted to high risk. If so, then there is a pattern of behavior and consequences and I hope that she is able to stop herself (with help) before things get totally out of hand.
My God... :lol:

[Samskate]

My God... :lol:

And Amen! ;)

[Debbie S]

"
Repercussions? For Michelle Kwan? It is said she is "teflon" but I suspect now that instead, she is addicted to high risk. If so, then there is a pattern of behavior and consequences and I hope that she is able to stop herself (with help) before things get totally out of hand.

Huh? Did Michelle withdraw from the GP series or join a motorcycle gang?


And for the record, Angela N was not called upon to replace Tara, she was to replace Nicole. Tonia K, who finished 4th at Nats that year behind Nicole, was asked to take Tara's place. Angela N would have filled in for Nicole, who withdrew about a week before Worlds started. Angela was visting relatives in Bulgaria and her coach didn't have her phone number there. And yes, we all know that Tonia did an admirable job in her last Oly-eligible comp and received a standing O.

The reason Tara and her camp were criticized was b/c of the manner in which she withdrew. Her camp notified the media and, from what I remember reading, never personally notified the USFSA or her coach. I remember the USFSA pres and CEO were quoted as saying they'd read about her withdrawal on the Internet and heard it from reporters calling them seeking comment. At the time, her excuses also seemed flimsy and changed as the public reacted - first she had the flu, but then people noted that she showed up the night after her withdrawal at a sponsor event to receive a new car; then she had abscessed teeth that she needed to have extracted, which seemed odd for an otherwise-healthy 15 year-old. At the same time, her agent was in the process of making deals and signing contracts to get Tara's pro career started. He then booked her on the Today show the day after Worlds ended to formally announce her intentions and her participation in an upcoming pro comp (I think it was one of those Rock & Roll champ things).

[Tessie]

Hypothecating? LOL :lol:

Hypothecate - To pledge (property) as security or collateral for a debt without transfer of title or possession.

I love this forum! thanks for the laugh. :bow:


Here's the definition from

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/hypothecate

[Tessie]

Hypothecating? LOL :lol:

Hypothecate - To pledge (property) as security or collateral for a debt without transfer of title or possession.

I love this forum! thanks for the laugh. :bow:


Here's the definition from

Definition: [v] to believe especially on uncertain or tentative grounds; "Scientists supposed that large dinosaurs lived in swamps."
[v] pledge without delivery or title of possession


Websites:

Synonyms: conjecture, hypothesise, hypothesize, speculate, suppose, theorise, theorize

See Also: anticipate, construct, develop, expect, explicate, formulate, pledge, reconstruct, retrace



http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/hypothecate

[icedancer2]

Well, well, -- my definition was from The American Herigage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition, published in 2000.

Without really getting into it, the word has the same root(s) as hypothesis, or hypothesize, which I think is what you meant in that sentence. I am not a linguist, however, so who knows?


It's interesting how words change through time, as evidenced by the 1913 definition from WEbsters from your link. I had thought it was a malapropism (a la our great leader, George W), but am fascinated to know that it is not.

Yes, I have no life. :roll:

[Tessie]

Well, well, -- my definition was from The American Herigage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th Edition, published in 2000.

Without really getting into it, the word has the same root(s) as hypothesis, or hypothesize, which I think is what you meant in that sentence. I am not a linguist, however, so who knows?


It's interesting how words change through time, as evidenced by the 1913 definition from WEbsters from your link. I had thought it was a malapropism (a la our great leader, George W), but am fascinated to know that it is not.

Yes, I have no life. :roll:

You are quite gracious. I was ready to correct myself, because the term hypothecation is still used in the finance and business world. As a cpa, we do ask our clients if they have hypthecated their inventory. Although the more common term we ask is pledged. Now that we have digressed into a cyoer crossword puzzle, I think it's time to close this thread.

[icedancer2]

Now that we have digressed into a cyoer crossword puzzle, I think it's time to close this thread.

:bow: :lol:

[loveskating]

Huh? Did Michelle withdraw from the GP series or join a motorcycle gang?


And for the record, Angela N was not called upon to replace Tara, she was to replace Nicole. Tonia K, who finished 4th at Nats that year behind Nicole, was asked to take Tara's place. Angela N would have filled in for Nicole, who withdrew about a week before Worlds started. Angela was visting relatives in Bulgaria and her coach didn't have her phone number there. And yes, we all know that Tonia did an admirable job in her last Oly-eligible comp and received a standing O.

The reason Tara and her camp were criticized was b/c of the manner in which she withdrew. Her camp notified the media and, from what I remember reading, never personally notified the USFSA or her coach. I remember the USFSA pres and CEO were quoted as saying they'd read about her withdrawal on the Internet and heard it from reporters calling them seeking comment. At the time, her excuses also seemed flimsy and changed as the public reacted - first she had the flu, but then people noted that she showed up the night after her withdrawal at a sponsor event to receive a new car; then she had abscessed teeth that she needed to have extracted, which seemed odd for an otherwise-healthy 15 year-old. At the same time, her agent was in the process of making deals and signing contracts to get Tara's pro career started. He then booked her on the Today show the day after Worlds ended to formally announce her intentions and her participation in an upcoming pro comp (I think it was one of those Rock & Roll champ things).

I see you are still hard at it...bashing Tara! Amazing! The Kwaniac hatred for anyone who beats Kwan is beyond strange.

[Kemy]

I see you are still hard at it...bashing Tara! Amazing! The Kwaniac hatred for anyone who beats Kwan is beyond strange.There wasn't any bashing. The person was just stating what was said to have happened. Even if the reports are slightly biased, there was no bashing as bashing requires more negative remarks against that particular skater.

[likes2skate]

[QUOTE=loveskating]Also, if she does not know the source of her problem, then, like Sasha when she had a back injury, Michelle would wait to see what the doctors say, or would have canceled Skate America only...remember how Sasha, who wanted to compete, went to Nationals and was in so much pain she had to withdraw? Sasha pushed it with her back injury....Michelle doesn't even have a known injury!

/QUOTE]

Loveskating- Are you saying Sasha was smart to push herself with an injury? If not, what exactly are you saying by using her as an example? While I certenly admire her determination and dedication, Sasha made a horrible decision to try and push herself at that time. She could have ruined her skating career!

Okay this is just a general thought (not directed at anyone in particular) Michelle may not know the cause of the back pain, but don't you think it is smart for her (especially at her age) to try and prevent a "bigger" injury right before the Olympics? Michelle needs to be healthy for next year. For all we know, she has avoided a full schedule to keep herself healthy. I bet if Plushy had slowed it down the last 2 years, he would not have an injury right before the Olympic season. Perhaps that exact scenario is what Michelle is trying to avoide? I don't blame her, and I would not blame any other skater for making that decision.

People really need to calm down. So Michelle doesn't do the GP again? So what? Does it really affect your life that bad? I have read so many conspiricy theories regarding this poor girl that you would think she is Saddam Hussain. It is sad, really. She is just a 24 year old woman trying to get her darn Olympic gold medal, and nothing more. The decisions she makes are what she thinks is best for her. Who else better to make a decision for you than yourself? I am certenly not qualified to tell Michelle what is right for her...I only kow her from my TV set. Yes, we can have opinions but in the end, who are we to judge? Michelle skates for her personal goals, not for people who post here, at MKF, or anywhere else. She needs to do what is right for her, and not what you or I think is right. Am disappointed she pulled out? YES! Do I think it is weird that she did not mention the "injury (or whatever you would like to call it) in the press release? YES! But so what? Who cares? Why are we trying to analyze someone we don't even know, and who does not have anything to do directly with our lives? It is silly, really. She dropped out, I think it is weird, I was upset for 5 minutes...I moved on and I will cheer on Sasha at Skate America! Woo Hoo!!! Kick But Sasha! (See how easy it is?)

[fadedstardust]

"Especially at her age"...only in skating would that comment be used towards a 24 year old woman. Sometimes I say to non-skating people things like "I'm 19, if things don't happen for me soon, I'll be too old" and they look at me blankly and wonder if I'm serious. This sport has a warped reality of what is old and what is not. I feel ancient, I seriously do, and I know that's not normal!! Good for Michelle to watch out for injury, but "at her age" I don't think she has to worry about a hernia just yet.

[Rapt2Go]

Perhaps the reasons her injury was not announced was at the request of the USFSA? Perhaps they thought an injury announcement would affect ticket sales at Skate America? Lord knows, there are *blocks* of tickets being offered for sale because MK will not be there. That's *insane* in my opinion, but I like skating in general, but I digress. If the announcement was made much earlier, it seems reasonable to assume that less tickets would have been sold.

As others have mentioned, Michelle was under contract to skate at Campbells and perhaps an injury was the only way to void the contract, but doing so would have caused a problem with the USFSA and SA ticket sales.

Who knows - it's all speculation. I just don't see what has occurred as being a result of MK being an Eville Diva set on defying all skating law and justice. :roll: None of us really know what is actually going on. I choose to accept what Michelle has offered. Just as I chose to accept Sasha's reason for leaving Tatiana.

Some have chosen to explore the alterior motive route with MK. Historically speaking, this doesn't surprise me in the least.

Count me in as another person living with chronic lower back pain which has never been COMPLETELY diagnosed.

[pittypat]

It's okay, Bondo, Michelle Kwan is just a figure skater, not a presidential candidate, so even if she's making up an injury of mass distraction, well . . . so what, LOL! ;)



:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[loveskating]

Perhaps the reasons her injury was not announced was at the request of the USFSA? Perhaps they thought an injury announcement would affect ticket sales at Skate America? Lord knows, there are *blocks* of tickets being offered for sale because MK will not be there. That's *insane* in my opinion, but I like skating in general, but I digress. If the announcement was made much earlier, it seems reasonable to assume that less tickets would have been sold.

As others have mentioned, Michelle was under contract to skate at Campbells and perhaps an injury was the only way to void the contract, but doing so would have caused a problem with the USFSA and SA ticket sales.

Who knows - it's all speculation. I just don't see what has occurred as being a result of MK being an Eville Diva set on defying all skating law and justice. :roll: None of us really know what is actually going on. I choose to accept what Michelle has offered. Just as I chose to accept Sasha's reason for leaving Tatiana.

Some have chosen to explore the alterior motive route with MK. Historically speaking, this doesn't surprise me in the least.

Count me in as another person living with chronic lower back pain which has never been COMPLETELY diagnosed.


Its not speculation that she said she withdrew to practice for Nationals and WOrlds and that she thought not skating the GP series in the past had helped her skating (I disagree with that, I think her skating has declined seriously since 2001, when all this started with the firing of Frank Carroll).

Its not specualtion that the most she has said is that she has back pain, cannot do a layback without pain. She has not spoken of a specific injury, and most would hope that her problem is mere sprain and strain, not serious injury. I have been pointing out that jumping to the conclusion that she has a serious injury is not very nice.

Some are not willing to consider speculatively negative reasons out of those that are objectively possible, and consider anyone who does "evil". Hoever, please note that the "positive" reasons given here are equally speculative, and that one, the other, or a combination of both is possible, as well. They ALL have an equally viable place in a rational discussion. That is ALL this is, its not a court of law, there are no consequences!

As to your back, try acupuncture. Its now expensive, and takes some time, but I have friends who have benefitted from it enormously for back pain, with known and unknown causes. I've had acupuncture for various problems and its WONDERFUL! It really works for some things, and back pain is one of them.

[likes2skate]

"Especially at her age"...only in skating would that comment be used towards a 24 year old woman. Sometimes I say to non-skating people things like "I'm 19, if things don't happen for me soon, I'll be too old" and they look at me blankly and wonder if I'm serious. This sport has a warped reality of what is old and what is not. I feel ancient, I seriously do, and I know that's not normal!! Good for Michelle to watch out for injury, but "at her age" I don't think she has to worry about a hernia just yet.

Goodness calm down, I didn't mean it as an insult. At 24, you cannot tell me your body as a skater is as healthy as it was at the age of 15? I think she just has to be more careful than younger skaters. I wasn't saying she should be handed a pack of depends and shipped to a nursing home. :roll:

Any sport like that really takes a toll on your body. Look at gymnastics. So many of those girls have career ending injuries before they are 20, and it happens in figure skating too. I wasn't saying 24 is old...I am 27 so if I thought that way, I would be one foot in the grave. "At her age" of 24, there is a lot more wear and tear on her body than someone who is a teenager. Don't you agree?

[Tapper]

Speculate on the negative? To what purpose?

[fadedstardust]

Goodness calm down, I didn't mean it as an insult. At 24, you cannot tell me your body as a skater is as healthy as it was at the age of 15? I think she just has to be more careful than younger skaters. I wasn't saying she should be handed a pack of depends and shipped to a nursing home. :roll:

Any sport like that really takes a toll on your body. Look at gymnastics. So many of those girls have career ending injuries before they are 20, and it happens in figure skating too. I wasn't saying 24 is old...I am 27 so if I thought that way, I would be one foot in the grave. "At her age" of 24, there is a lot more wear and tear on her body than someone who is a teenager. Don't you agree?

I was afraid you would take it wrong if I replied the way I did so I tried to think of a way to not direct it at you which is why I didn't quote...I didn't mean to jump on you for the comment, it's just a general comment, that we are made to think in this sport that 24 is old. I wasn't saying you think that or don't think that, just that it's acceptable and widely agreed upon in this world and I always find it warped. In the "real world" that comment would never be uttered. And meanwhile no I do not agree. Michelle has kept on going for 12 years, which is about 3 years less than the age Tara was when she had to retire. It very much depends on the strength of your bones, of your stretching/warm up habits, of how good your coaching is and if your technique is right, and that you know when to stop if you are feeling pain. You could skate two days and snap your spine, or skate 20 years and only have a little wear and tear. I don't know, I'm not 24 but I do know that at 18 I actually feel like my body is stronger and better than it was when I was 14 or 15, because I know every muscle, I know what feels right and what feels wrong, and all in all I have settled into myself, and also now I'm mature enough to stretch properly. Skating takes its toll sure, but it's like a car you know? The mileage will climb when you drive it, but how many it will hold up for before breaking down largely depends upon frequent oil change and good maintenance, not so much on how long you have driven it. ;)

[Rapt2Go]

Speculate on the negative? To what purpose?

Tapper, I wondered that myself.

Anyway, I am excited to see Alissa Czisny in Michelle's place.

[likes2skate]

I was afraid you would take it wrong if I replied the way I did so I tried to think of a way to not direct it at you which is why I didn't quote...I didn't mean to jump on you for the comment, it's just a general comment, that we are made to think in this sport that 24 is old. I wasn't saying you think that or don't think that, just that it's acceptable and widely agreed upon in this world and I always find it warped. In the "real world" that comment would never be uttered. And meanwhile no I do not agree. Michelle has kept on going for 12 years, which is about 3 years less than the age Tara was when she had to retire. It very much depends on the strength of your bones, of your stretching/warm up habits, of how good your coaching is and if your technique is right, and that you know when to stop if you are feeling pain. You could skate two days and snap your spine, or skate 20 years and only have a little wear and tear. I don't know, I'm not 24 but I do know that at 18 I actually feel like my body is stronger and better than it was when I was 14 or 15, because I know every muscle, I know what feels right and what feels wrong, and all in all I have settled into myself, and also now I'm mature enough to stretch properly. Skating takes its toll sure, but it's like a car you know? The mileage will climb when you drive it, but how many it will hold up for before breaking down largely depends upon frequent oil change and good maintenance, not so much on how long you have driven it. ;)

I get what you are saying, but didn't Tara also not condition properly and train obsessively? I read (I think it was last year) on her web site her doc told her to stay off the ice for a certin amount of time after her hip surgery, and instead she went right on the ice as soon as she could.

I know young people (teens, etc...) can get injuries too, but I feel (in any physical activity) the older you get, you should just be a little more careful with yourself. :D Basically, that is all I was saying.

[fadedstardust]

Yeah exactly...Tara was my example of someone who was still very young and hadn't been in this sport for that much of her life and yet had a very serious, career ending injury and that it wasn't just about age, but training. I still feel bad for her though, she probably thought she was too young for anything like that to happen to her. It must be horrible not to be able to skate at all anymore. :/

I know what you mean about the older you get, I think after about 30-35 years old, I agree with you. But I don't think a 24 year old has to watch out too much more than a 16 year old, but maybe I will find out differently the hard way when it is my turn to be that age?? I hope not. :P

[md2be]

Stardust - I skated my whole youth, and now at 31 I am just starting to realize that your 30s aren't "old." It was a warped perception I had from growing up in the skating world and learning that if I didnt have the name and jumps by the time I was 13, I wasnt going anywhere! You are correct, 24 is not old, in fact it is the start to the prime of life. As an athlete, however, I concur that sport becomes more difficult as you age. Skating now - I have to stretch for 1/2 an hour before I get on the ice, whereas I used to just throw myself out there and go, go, go. If I want to do my doubles and skate hard like I do and still be able to walk tomorrow, I had best stretch!!!

However, the more I train for my 1/2 ironman and develop my core muscles through running and pilates, the easier it is to skate and the more pain-free I live everyday. I can always tell when I gain >2lbs because it hurts my joints.

I did compete for years with a sore hip (landing leg). I believe I have arthritis in it now, and will for life. I live in a small amount of pain from it, but nothing i cant tolerate. I think Tara and her coaches pushed her too hard, personally. It is sad that such a young person has undergone so much surgery. I think I read that the doctor said her hip looked like an elderly person's hip. That just isnt right. There is a lot to be said for intelligent training.

[robertp]

md2be. Sounds like some Omega 3 fatty acids, glucose amine and perhaps some bone mineralization type vit/minerals are in order. That is, if you haven't already tried such an approach. Good luck

I agree that these girls and men are sometimes pushed way too hard. Many athletes have chronic health problems from improper training, poor diets or drug enhanced performances. Many athletes from the 1980 olympics are no longer living because of it. Many research articles suggest that the athlete is less healthy than the couch potato whereas the casual athlete is much healthier than both.