Campbell's results - Spoiler!

[Debbie S]

Results for Campbell's (from MKF):

Ladies

1. Michelle Kwan (skated to Bolero, does several spins in opposite direction, a la Lyra Angelica)
2. Shizuka Arakawa (1 3/3)
3. Sasha Cohen (had a few stumbles)
4. Miki Ando (1 3/3/2)
5. Kimmie Meissner (skated well, landed 3/3)
6. Julia Sebestyen
7. Amber Corwin
8. Jenny Kirk (apparently had a rough warm-up)


Men

1. Tim Goebel
2. Brian Joubert
3. Emmanuel Sandhu
4. Johnny Weir
5. Evan Lysacek
6. Takeshi Honda

[lilwish]

I have forgotten, is this competition usuing cop or the 6.0 system?

[Buzzing84]

Would you mind posting these other reports. My computer restricts me from looking at any sites that are on ezboard. Thanks

[HSF]

The actual scores given by the judges are available on the USFS site.

Michelle got 3 1st place ordinals, Arakawa got 1 and Miki got 1.

Sasha had 4 3rd place ordinals and 1 4th place ordinal.

I don't know where you are getting your information, Bondo, but Sasha didn't get even 1 5th place ordinal.

HSF

[Tapper]

Bondo, how could Arakawa have been first?

[HSF]

Bondo, according to the scores posted by the judges, only 1 judge, the judge from Canada, scored Arakawa ahead of Michelle. All 4 of the other judges put Michele ahead of Arakawa.

You can make any case you want to of "who might have won or deserved to win" but you are not correct in your statement about how the judges actually marked the skaters. Go to the USFS site and check the scores.

[hiliairyh]

if we assume the judges might hold some skaters up. Like I said initially, I haven't seen it so I'm not making claims of anyone deserving to finish anywhere different. I really don't know why you have made a fuss of it.

Michelle landed 6 solid triple jumps, Arakawa landed 4 solid triple jumps and one wonky triple, Sasha landed 3 solid triple jumps, popped the flip (first time I remember Sasha popping a jump) and two foot the final lutz, Miki landed 3/3/2 and another 3/3. I wonder who the judges were holding up? Definitely not Michelle. Some reports mentioned that the third place could be a toss up among Sasha, Kimmie and Miki.

[loveskating]

It appears you decided to not read my post and instead assume I was being critical of Michelle. If you'll notice, I said maybe Michelle could be second, but I said maybe Sasha could be fifth. from first to second when two judges had the skater in second or from third to fifth when only one judge had the skater lower than third (a fourth)...which is the more dramatic statement. I think I was clear in suggesting that Sasha seems more held up than Michelle. But I wouldn't expect you to care about that because you don't want your midguided view of me as some Michelle hater or "sashasunglasses" person.

It was clear to me you were implying Sasha was held up (and not happy that the marks were all over the place)

Well, I'm waiting to see the skates, but just one thing...a two footed jump counts under the 6.0 system...in the LP its not "well done", the skater does not get full credit, but it does count. A pick in the ice on landing is worse than a scratch by the free leg in front on the landing. This was apparently Sasha's second lutz, so she must have landed the lutz combo? Maybe this explains Sasha's placement (4 triples), together with her generally superior elements and great basics? (While Miki Ando has great potential [and I do love to see that girl skate], I don't find her presentation generally anywhere near Sasha's or MK's for that matter...Arakawa is almost there but to me still lacks a certain sureness of movement.)

We had a discussion here about this jump issue with Louis and other judges...but I also ask everyone to recall how Oksana Baiul two footed her lutz (pick in the ice) in the SP and was in SECOND place at the 94 Olympics...if the jump had not counted, she would not have been in second place! Likewise, MK two footed her lutz -- scratch on the ice in front with the free leg) in her SP at 2001 Olympics and was in third in the SP if I recall). So I am constantly astounded by how some people claim a two footed jump does not count...or that a doubled jump does not count as a double jump, things like that.

P.S. Sasha popped her one attempt in competition at the seniors level of a quad salchow.

[loveskating]

so sorry, Bondo, I meant WORLDS, 2001 Worlds as to MK two footing the lutz in the SP. You are right, at the recent Olympics, MK was placed 1st in the SP. I'm posting at work and was in a hurry!

According to the discussion we had, a two footed jump in the category of a pick in the ice (Baiul in my example) or a scratch across the front on the ice (MK in my example) SPECIFICALLY does count in both the SP and LP much as a jump landed on the wrong edge counts, but there is either a deduction in the SP or not as much credit in the LP.

Its only if most of the blade on the free leg is on the ice that it does not count, is fully two footed!

However, when it comes to a record, like landing the first 4 lutz, that is denied if the jump is two footed in any manner at all and I think they said that credit was given for a 4 jump but badly done.

This makes sense to me when I watch the marks...because if a pick in the ice and a scratch across the ice voided the jump, a WHOLE lot of skaters would not have made it out of the SP in more than 5th place! I only used those two as examples because I thought people would remember them easily.

[Debbie S]

For the record, MK was 2nd in the SP at 2001 Worlds. Irina was 1st, Angela N was 3rd, and Sarah H was 4th.

IIRC, when instant replay was proposed (didn't that go through and get used for a few years - we don't hear about it anymore so I assume they stopped using it?) Oksana Baiul's SP in the 94 Olys was the most often mentioned reason for it - the argument was that if the judges could have replayed her lutz and seen the 2 foot (several judges commented afterward that they didn't get a good view of it), the mandatory deductions would have placed her out of the top 3, and she wouldn't have been able to win, at least not without "help" from other skaters, a la Sarah H.

[Kemy]

I'm not too crazy about any of the skaters' programs yet. Did anyone catch Sasha's footwork? It looked a little empty, but I'll have to take another look. She needs to move a jump or two after the 2:30 mark to get some bonus. Shizuka looked a bit frozen on the ice, but she did say she was anervous, so this will probably improve. Michelle needs to add more difficult entries to her jumps and work on her spins more. I like that her coach emphasizes working on the footwork. Hopefully, this means he won't let her downgrade it, as it looked difficult. Johnny Weir was boring and tentative. Timmy was OK, but is he keeping that program? The commentators said that he wasn't, but I thought he was. Joubert's program was looked ill-fitted for him and his costume would have looked a lot better had his designed used different fabric. That shiny brown leather looking stuff looked just wrong. He needs new footwork if he ever wants to improve on his standings. I liked Sandhu, and thought he was undermarked. Kimmie was cute, but juniorish. Miki? I forgot. :roll:

[Kemy]

Bondo,

I think his costume was supposed to represent Columbus AND the boat. I think he was going for the Santa Maria, but I was thinking Nina all teh way.

[loveskating]

For the record, MK was 2nd in the SP at 2001 Worlds. Irina was 1st, Angela N was 3rd, and Sarah H was 4th.

IIRC, when instant replay was proposed (didn't that go through and get used for a few years - we don't hear about it anymore so I assume they stopped using it?) Oksana Baiul's SP in the 94 Olys was the most often mentioned reason for it - the argument was that if the judges could have replayed her lutz and seen the 2 foot (several judges commented afterward that they didn't get a good view of it), the mandatory deductions would have placed her out of the top 3, and she wouldn't have been able to win, at least not without "help" from other skaters, a la Sarah H.

You are mistaken...the judges saw Oksana's two foot on the lutz in the SP; it was in the LP where they missed it (it was so very minute, looked like a clean landing to everyone, including me.) The two footed lutz in Oksana's Swan Lake SP was very, very clear to everyone.

Finally, perhaps it was at the 2000 Worlds that MK was in third heading into the LP...I remember it vividly because I was bashed to smithereens for advising her fans that the judges did not hate her, they just marked for the mistake she made.

[loveskating]

If they had all skated clean, it should have been Arakawa, Sasha and Michelle by difficulty technically...which is useful in saying, "Look this person can beat you if they skate clean" like with Tara or Sarah.

No one else was in the same league as to presentation of those three, nor even if you take it element by element leaving out the jumps, IMHO.

Having said that, Michelle is pushing herself (nothing like the Ina Bauer into the 3 sal and right into that really seamless spiral sequence "of edges" as I call it, like Sasha -- Sasha's forward Charlotte was truly impressive, but I was most impressed with the transitions on edges, and generally, Sasha was on one edge or the other), but Michelle did do two flying sitspins, the camels both ways and the fan spiral, along with a 2 loop in combination. I respect her a lot more after seeing this, although MK's fan spiral needs improvement.

Needless to say, neither Sasha nor Michelle had anything like Arakawa's very difficult jump combinations, so if she skates clean and inspired, she will simply beat both of them at their best right now is all.

I usually say nothing about costumes, but Arakawa needs to lose the stuff on her arms.

As I suspected, Sasha's two foot was a scratch across the front of the ice. I don't think she was held up at all, since she got the lutz combo and second lutz in, nor was anyone. The judges got it right, IMHO.

[Alexa]

Overall, I preferred the ladies competition, but I do think all of the programs need more work in order to be more polished. I thought the rankings were fine, and did not see any major issues with them. I was disappointed in Sasha making mistakes -- I keep hoping she can pull off several clean performances.

As for the men, Timothy did well, but he just does not have very good presentation. Though I was happy he landed his jumps after a bad season last year.

Joubert--he needs to quit channeling Yagudin and find his own style. It just bugs me how there is so much Yagudin influence interspersed throughout his programs. Everytime I watch I feel like I am watching Joubert pretending to be Yagudin.

[bunghodog]

If clean shoud of been Shiz, Sasha and Michelle because of difficulty??
I agree about shiz , but not Sasha and Michelle. Michelle's program was better balanced.
Michelle and Sasha have work ahead of them, Sasha just a little bit more.

[Oracle]

I was spellbound by Sandhu's program (once he got past the missed combo). ITA with Button that E-man is far & away the greatest of all the male skaters today if he could just become consistent. Weir's program needs work but I can forsee the day when he will be as great to watch as Sandhu...well, I love Johnny already but he's not in Sandhu's class presentation-wise just yet. Good to see Tim getting his jumps back. I think he is very wise to take it slowly this early in the season. Joubert was a mess! The ladies were ok. I enjoyed Kimmie the most just because I like watching developing skaters.

[jcspkbfan]

My $0.02:

Tim: I'm glad he's gotten most of his jumps back, but I really hope he gets a new LP before the end of the season!

Emanuel: :frus: :evil: :frus: He had the best-choreographed program of all the men (at least out of the ones shown in the ABC broadcast anyway), but oh, why can't he land those @#*$ jumps in international competition? I have mixed feelings about his costume, but at least it's an improvement over the pink thing he wore during the last two seasons...and I'm sure the judges will absolutely love this program--as long as Emanuel lands those @#*$ jumps, that is! I only hope a "Mr. Hyde" performance like this so early in the season means Emanuel will only improve throughout the season. I hope...

Brian: Elvis' old music + Yagudin's old choreography + peach toilet-paper costume=a program I didn't like nearly as much as last year's Matrix program. I hope this program will grow on me once we see it skated cleanly.

Johnny: Again, I liked last year's LP much better (but again, I hope that will change once we see him skate it cleanly). Maybe I'm just tired of the music after seeing Maria B. skate to it over and over and over and over again...

Julia: Overused music, unflattering costume, nice jumps, not much else to say.

Kimmie: I've read so many glowing reviews about her, but this was the first time I've ever seen her skate...and she certainly didn't disappoint! I was impressed not only with her jumps, but also with how many interesting in-between moves were already in her program at such a young age. She looks farther ahead than Sarah or Sasha were at that age, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more of her in the future.

Sasha: I think this is the first Sasha program I've ever seen which does not include that "pull her skate over her head" spin (sorry, I don't know the proper name for it!) she usually does at the end of her programs. I think most of Sasha's flexibility moves are gorgeous, but that one spin has always been the exception, IMO. Sasha always looks like she's grimacing in pain whenever she lifts her skate over her head entering that spin, and I'm glad she's decided to use many more flattering flexibility moves and spins in this program instead. The other move in this program that stood out to me was the forward Charlotte spin. I can't remember Sasha or any other skater doing that spin before and it looks very impressive; it must be hard to glide forward at that speed in that position!

Michelle: I wasn't too crazy about her last few LPs, but this one is a definite improvement! This was the most intricately-choreographed LP I've seen from Michelle since she left Lori Nichol and I hope it will only get better with time. I thought her last footwork sequence was especially awesome (or would have been awesome if she hadn't tripped towards the end!) I'm glad she didn't use the exact same Bolero recording as T&D, though! Now if only she'd pull the "Rush" SP Chris choreographed for her a few years ago out of the mothballs...

Shizuka: I don't like the costume (although I admit it does fit the music), but I do like the choreography and it's nice to see Shizuka land her jumps so consistently this early in the season.

Miki: She's already matured quite a bit since Worlds and that first jump combination was very impressive! :D

It'll be very interesting to see how these programs will fare under COP! :)

[Rachel]

Michelle's program was better balanced in terms of jumps, but that is not worth THAT much when compared to Sasha's advantage on spirals and spins and jump entries.

Michelle will get credit under COP for having two jumps late in her program and that's to her advantage, but I wonder if the judges will note that she has a lot of jumps at the beginning and two at the end and none in the middle. I'm not sure that's exactly balanced, although it's certainly better than front-loading in terms of points.

I don't know that I would give the advantage to Sasha on spirals. Sasha's are more dramatic and have better position, but Michelle's have deeper edges and are usually steadier. She will get credit for the depth of edge and the speed she maintains throughout. Sasha's spirals look better on TV than in person, IMO; last year, at least, she looked like she was barely moving across the ice in her spirals when I saw her live. But Sasha's edge is getting better. I expect their spirals to be scored almost identically. I guess we'll have to wait for Worlds to see, though.

Sasha doesn't really have the complex jump entries in this program (one, I believe) she's had in the past but I expect that to change as the season goes on and the program develops. I hope it does, as choreographically it is pretty empty, although I think Robin is trying to pace her to give her confidence and they will add to the program as it goes along. I think it's a good idea; starting off the season with a bang means having to maintain a very high standard for months on end rather than gradually ramping it up. Since Sasha took some time off, it may be that she hasn't had enough time to put everything in yet, either.

In terms of the overall programs, Shizuka has the most COP friendly, but I'm not sure it's a good program for her in terms of comfort. She is quite capable of doing the technical elements well, but it just doesn't seem like a good fit for her musically. But it's early yet; she may get into it more as the season goes on. The thing I have always loved most about Shizuka is her lightness; she has such soft jump landings normally, but she didn't seem to have that quality in this performance.

Bolero is, to me, dentist drill music, so I am biased against it, and I don't especially like MK's program. The beginning is fine, the end is fine, but the middle isn't fine. Bolero demands crisp, complex, dramatic movement and it just isn't there. I never liked Vanessa Guinchi's skating much, but I thought her program to Bolero suited the music better than this. I guess we'll see what Christopher Dean does with it, but Michelle does not have a good history of adding complex elements as the season goes on.

The pas de deux music I love, but it's always a pas de deux for me. It just doesn't work all that well for singles programs, even though there have been a lot of them; it's as repetitive as Bolero and so demands a lot of the skater in terms of interpretation, which I think is easier in some ways for a couple. I expected Sasha to love this music, but she didn't seem into this program at all, although that may not be the music. I didn't think much of this program choreographically, either, but I am sure Robin has a plan. If nothing else, Robin Wagner is a good competitive strategist.

[MQSeries]

Joubert's program was wrong on so many levels. How can anyone from the Jourbert camp not snicker everytime he goes into the footwork sequences during the techno part of 1492? They looked so out of place.

Yag, please stay away from choreography. What have you done to Brian? 8O


MK's choreography didn't look very Dean-ish at all. Not sure if that's a bad or good thing. I was expecting a lot of deep knee-bends typicall of Dean's choreography but didn't see any of that. She definitely had the time and could have done a few choreographic moves inbetween the jumps to accentuate the music but right now it still looks like a bunch of crossovers. Love the beginning though and the on the knee ending. Suprise that the last straight line looked more like Morosov's choreography than Dean's. The parts where she arched her back and reached both hands into the sky were directly from Tosca's footwork.

[danibellerika]

Joubert's program was wrong on so many levels. How can anyone from the Jourbert camp not snicker everytime he goes into the footwork sequences during the techno part of 1492? They looked so out of place.

Yag, please stay away from choreography. What have you done to Brian? 8O



I had a hard time watching it because it was just sooooo bad. It was as you said, wrong on many levels.

[2sk8]

Not really about the skaters, but ABC coverage (& maybe not worth a new thread!). Just wondering - I kind of assume figure skating ought to be "family friendly". Did anyone else have a problem with the idea of little children skaters watching commercials over & over that talk about "fetishes" & "tit jobs"? Or am I just being too sensitive?!

[iskatealot]

Just wanted 2 say that I thought that Kimmie did really well in the competition and that Ya Sasha has some improving to do before nect competition but I think most of it is because of her new program same as every1 else. The reason Kimmie skated so well was because she competed over the summer.

[3ggi3]

i just want to say that sasha needs to fix her flutz
it is has gotten better
BUT
it is still pretty bad

[3ggi3]

wow it is a good thing Bondo doesn't judge!

My marks are as follows:

1. Michelle Kwan USA 5.8/5.9

6 triples, flip was scratchy
powerful, passionate, and mesmerizing
"fall" on footwark, did not actually fall as her butt didn't touch the ice, it was purely done on edges ;)

2. Shizuka Arakawa JPN 5.7/5.7

cheated triple triple combo
some mistakes on triple jumps
monotonous program
but nonetheless powerful

3. Sasha Cohen USA 5.5/5.8

3 triples completed
program was repetitive (as was mk's and sa's) but lacked the passion and emotion, nice forward charlotte

4. Kimmie Meissner USA 5.6/5.7

kind of cheated jumps, but really impressive, slow and her elements are still junior level, watch out Torino!


5. Miki Ando JPN 5.7/5.6

strong technically but made some mistakes
needs to work on artistry


6. Julia Sebestyen HUN 5.6/5.6

skated an overall ok performance but nothing spectacular

[3ggi3]

how can u give marks that low?
so what if ur ordinals were good
u could put 3.5/3.6 and 4.2/4.7
but it doesn't matter,
you didn't mark according to specifics, which is odd because ur criticisms are detailed
U must be a professional nitpicker 8O
look at ur scores
sorry if I sound rude. 8-)

[3ggi3]

Place Name Nat.
USA CAN JPN FRA RUS

1. Michelle Kwan USA
5.8 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.8
5.9 5.7 5.8 5.9 5.9
11.7 11.4 11.5 11.6 11.7
1 2 2 1 1


2. Shizuka Arakawa JPN
5.7 5.8 5.8 5.7 5.7
5.7 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.8
11.4 11.6 11.5 11.5 11.5
2 1 3 2 2


3. Sasha Cohen USA
5.6 5.4 5.6 5.6 5.6
5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8
11.3 11.2 11.4 11.4 11.4
3 3 4 3 3


4. Miki Ando JPN
5.7 5.6 5.9 5.6 5.7
5.6 5.5 5.7 5.6 5.7
11.3 11.1 11.6 11.2 11.4
4 4 1 4 4


5. Kimmie Meissner USA
5.5 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.7
5.4 5.4 5.6 5.5 5.6
10.9 11.0 11.3 11.1 11.3
5 5 5 5 5


6. Julia Sebestyen HUN
5.4 5.3 5.4 5.4 5.5
5.4 5.3 5.5 5.4 5.6
10.8 10.6 10.9 10.8 11.1
6 7 6 6 7


7. Amber Corwin USA
5.0 5.5 5.3 5.2 5.6
5.2 5.4 5.3 5.3 5.6
10.2 10.9 10.6 10.5 11.2
8 6 7 7 6


8. Jennifer Kirk USA
5.1 5.1 5.1 5.1 5.1
5.3 5.3 5.3 5.3 5.3
10.4 10.4 10.4 10.4 10.4
7 8 8 8 8



That Canadian judge has been known to mark MK as low as possible without crossing the line. Do you see any other marks that match yours on all levels of marking?

[3ggi3]

argh u dont seem to get my point
oh well
and i couldn't be a judge: i am too young and i skate full time so I can't judge levels above me

[HSF]

Bondo, you never cease to amaze me. You’re always good for a few laughs.

Somehow you seem to have missed the entire reasoning behind the judges’ marks. They are “placemarks” for the ordinals. One judge’s mark of 5.6 may be the same as anothers mark of 5.8 or anothers of 5.2. You are comparing “apples and oranges.” You need to compare apples to apples.

Try using the ordinals of each of these judges and see how well you did.

[HSF]

OMG. you agreed with one judge? Congrats!

What happened to the other 4?

I'm a big MK fan but I am even a bigger fan of figure skating. I simply say "may the best skater win."

You can't compare your ordinals spread between 3-4 judeges to what each individual judge scored.

Again, "apples to oranges."

[3ggi3]

that is what i am talking about
lol. apples are good :D