"Kwan Grows Musically"

[Kemy]

Los Angeles Times - need to register
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-kwan24sep24,1,7287047.story?coll=la-headlines-sports

[Artemis]

I can't be bothered to register. Anyone care to post the gist? TIA

[adrianchew]

She's skating to Bolero with Dean doing the choreography for her. For her freeskate I believe, and at this point no plans to try a triple-triple at the Marshall's Challenge coming up.

She says she takes it day by day as far as deciding if she'll compete in the 2006 Olympics because it puts less pressure on her that way.

That's the basic gist of it.

[bunghodog]

Cool, it sounds very interesting. It sounds as if it will be full of choreography.

[danibellerika]

Or at least as if it is supposed to be full. Here's hoping she doesn't dilute it. Still though, I'm not that excited about it. Bolero doesn't do anything for me.

[hiliairyh]

Still though, I'm not that excited about it. Bolero doesn't do anything for me.

I thinkthe music Bolero is too repetitive. Even T&D's version does not do much for me. BTW, if your favorite skater is choosing Bolero will that do it for you? ;)

[MQSeries]

I generally don't care for the music Bolero either, but I'm very eager to see what Dean and MK do with it this Friday. No one has ever accused Dean of under-choreographing anything :lol: I just hope he doesn't make MK do too many of his characteristic deep knee-bends.

I can't wait to see the unveiling of all the ladies new free program this Friday. Wish I was there live.

[danibellerika]

I thinkthe music Bolero is too repetitive. Even T&D's version does not do much for me. BTW, if your favorite skater is choosing Bolero will that do it for you? ;)

To answer your question, no. Plushenko is my favorite male skater but his Bolero did nothing at all for me. He usually has very interesting pieces of music though and this season will be using one of my absolute FAVORITE pieces(The Godfather).

I like Alexander Abt, but not his Bolero. I liked his Rach though.

For my favorite female skater, she's not using Bolero, but her lp music choice doesn't have me jumping for joy either. It's also a repetitive piece. The only part that I know I'll love is when she hits her spiral at the crescendo. I guess I'll just really be keeping an ear out for the Olys season, hoping that they'll all come out with guns blazing choosing great music, and having great programs.

Back to Michelle though, I was actually kinda looking forward to her doing the lion king if that rumor was true. I had heard the piece that sounded like what that lady was talking about and it was dark, but interesting and would have been another departure for MK kind of like TFB(was SO much more awesome live than aranjuez at worlds). I tend to enjoy her programs more when she does it that way.

[bunghodog]

I Loved Plushy's Bolero, I downloaded recently on one of his sites. I am ok with over used music, most skaters put there own into the music. I am looking forward to Bolero and Nutcracker, I happen to love Nutcracker even if over used. It fits Sasha perfectly.

[Kabooke]

She's skating to Bolero with Dean doing the choreography for her. For her freeskate I believe, and at this point no plans to try a triple-triple at the Marshall's Challenge coming up.

She says she takes it day by day as far as deciding if she'll compete in the 2006 Olympics because it puts less pressure on her that way.

That's the basic gist of it.

From this Barry Wilner article she already has plans
for Torino as she contemplated saving Bolero for
the Olympics but, RA convinced her now was the time.

Also, after RA played Bolero for her and they decided on it
she thought of Chris and called him and just got right to
the point and was pleasantly surprised that he jumped right
on board.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/09/24/sports1542EDT0267.DTL

[hiliairyh]

I Loved Plushy's Bolero, I downloaded recently on one of his sites. I am ok with over used music, most skaters put there own into the music. I am looking forward to Bolero and Nutcracker, I happen to love Nutcracker even if over used. It fits Sasha perfectly.

Bolero is not that overused .

I think some of skaters who can interpret Bolero well will be Maria, and Kat

[Tapper]

Kabooke, thanks for posting the article!

I've always loved Bolero, and I'm glad that Michelle is going to do it. I have hopes that this will be a compelling program. I think it's worth noting that the time seems to be right for her to do it... you know when it's time to do something because it sings out to you in a way it never did before. I have high hopes that this will be a great program.

[AxelAnnie22]

Or at least as if it is supposed to be full. Here's hoping she doesn't dilute it. Still though, I'm not that excited about it. Bolero doesn't do anything for me. I'm with you. Bolero never did do a thing for me, and probably never will. But then, I haven't heard too many music choices for the season that make me wait on the edge of my chair, remote in hand!
:halo:

[nyskatefan]

ITA Tapper ... the fact that Michelle chose this music and seems so excited about it, pleases me to no end. I feel pretty certain that Christopher Dean would not choreograph a poor "Bolero". I'm happy she is working with him and fully expect this program to build as the season goes on. I'm not at all interested in whether or not she wins Campbell's ... I just want her to execute the triples she tries and hope the program is received well.

And I doubt seriously that any of the top ladies will dilute their programs as the season goes on ... not with COP being used at 2005 Worlds. Both Michelle and Sasha would not fare well with the type of programs they used at last years worlds, and I'm sure that is not in either of their plans.

[Kabooke]

Both Michelle and Sasha would not fare well with the type of programs they used at last years worlds, and I'm sure that is not in either of their plans.

Really?

Sasha did well under the COP during the GP
and only lost the finals due to her inability
to skate a clean program under pressure.

I think even though neither are the current world champ
they are still the best in the world and the one's to beat.

What i like about the new COP is less emphasis on jumping
and more on a complete program, and when the jumps are
looked at that cheated jumps, especially 3/3's won't be doing
anyone any favors.

Should be an interesting season! :D

[icenut84]

Really?

Sasha did well under the COP during the GP
and only lost the finals due to her inability
to skate a clean program under pressure.

True, but nyskatefan was referring to the programmes they performed at Worlds. Sasha's LP at Worlds was nothing like the LP she'd used in the GP, it was practically empty and devoid of a lot of the choreography and nuances that it'd had earlier in the season. The point being made was that if Michelle or Sasha turn up in Moscow with LPs like they had in Dortmund (empty), they won't fare well, as COP is being used.

[Artemis]

^ I just assumed that Sasha made those modifications to her program for Worlds specifically because CoP wasn't being used. It was evident to me that they'd planned it that way deliberately. If CoP had been used at Worlds last year, I'm reasonably certain that she would have done the same nuanced version she did throughout the GP season.

[Schmeck]

I thought Robin threw out a lot of the choreograpghy so that Sasha could have a better chance of skating a clean program at Worlds.

[lazenpa]

no triple triples. she needs do them . just go for it. geez

[Kemy]

Back to the topic...

I'll be laughing if we see the Lion King music broken out for the Olympic LP and Brenda40 ends up being right...choreography and all.

but I doubt it...The Olympics usually brings out the old song warhorses. Michelle will be doing Don Quixote, Sasha will be doing Moonlight Sonata and Shizuka will be doing Rachmaninoff (any piece) and Irina will do Romeo and Juliet. blah blah blah

[loveskating]

Plushy's Bolero did nothing for me as a program, either. But when it comes to Plushy, I often don't really notice his programs as such, neither like nor dislike them...he tends to overpower them, he has such a big personality on the ice.

[Tapper]

Back to the topic...

I'll be laughing if we see the Lion King music broken out for the Olympic LP and Brenda40 ends up being right...choreography and all.

but I doubt it...The Olympics usually brings out the old song warhorses. Michelle will be doing Don Quixote, Sasha will be doing Moonlight Sonata and Shizuka will be doing Rachmaninoff (any piece) and Irina will do Romeo and Juliet. blah blah blah

Now that you mention it... I wouldn't mind seeing MK skate to Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet... the balcony scene pas de deux would be... sigh... well, it's just such a gorgeous piece of music... lots of passion but maybe not so good for getting a crowd to cheer in the middle of... might be a good exhibition piece. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to Bolero... a piece of music rumored to drive some people into a passionate frenzy (although it also sounds like it bores some too).

[lilwish]

I love Michelle but...yawn...I like it better when she chooses material that is not over played or as associated with other skaters...still, usually by the end of the season she has me convinced.

the lack of 3/3 (I know she says she will add it but didn't she say that all of last season) really bothers me.

Of course, I don't understand cop for the life of me - maybe it will work for her...just don't see how with with the other women are throwing

[hiliairyh]

I love Michelle but...yawn...I like it better when she chooses material that is not over played or as associated with other skaters...still, usually by the end of the season she has me convinced.



Do you yawn at all skaters who choose music that is overused or associated with other skaters, or is it just Michelle. In anther word if Jenny, Arakawa or Sasha Cohen use overused music do you yawn? ;) :)

[Buzzing84]

I love Michelle but...yawn...I like it better when she chooses material that is not over played or as associated with other skaters...still, usually by the end of the season she has me convinced.

the lack of 3/3 (I know she says she will add it but didn't she say that all of last season) really bothers me.

Of course, I don't understand cop for the life of me - maybe it will work for her...just don't see how with with the other women are throwing

First off, I agree with you about the triple-triple. I understand it's the begining of the season, she's trying to focus on the choreography of the new program, and all of that, but I don't like that she says she's not ready to do it. Skaters should always be ready to do it. It's something you practice every day to be able to put it in the program. She's also completed a triple-triple at the beginning of a season before, so that's not really a valid excuse. All of the male skaters, and several of the female skaters come to the competitions early on ready to do a triple-triple. We'll see what difference 3 weeks makes.

As far as the CoP goes, it will absolutely benefit Kwan. Some people may not agree with me, but it's clear that Arakawa would not be the world champion today if CoP had been in use in Dortmund. It seems as though this system was created specifically for Michelle.

[icedancer2]

I would have to agree with Bondo on this one.

If the COP was created "with Michelle in mind" it would have to be that it was intended to get her out of her little box of "same old-same old" moves and choreography that have been carrying her all of these years and start doing more of what she is definitely capable of, and that is more and more complex choreography and steps.

So here's hoping that COP will be great for Michelle and all of the other skaters this year!!

Can't wait to see all of the new programs.

[Dr. Phil]

There's no way MK will do well in COP if she has the same empty programs as she has had since the (first) Olympics. She'd better step it up if she wants to compete with Sasha and Shizuka!

[phoenixxx]

Er....first olympics? I hope you mean second olympics (agreed) but if you didn't, I suggest you watch Ariane, TRV, EOE, FOC, heck even SotBS (which is NOT a favorite of mine). All those programs are comparable with Romanza, DoD, Salome, Taj Mahal, Rach, and Lyra.

Dang, Michelle's had quite a few impressive programs.

And I'm dying to see her new SP....her SPs are s better than her LPs. (TRV, and SotBS are exceptions.)

[danibellerika]

Do you yawn at all skaters who choose music that is overused or associated with other skaters, or is it just Michelle. In anther word if Jenny, Arakawa or Sasha Cohen use overused music do you yawn? ;) :)

Do you like to ask those types of questions to anyone that isn't gung ho about something Michelle may be doing? Would you ask these questions if this thread were about someone other than Michelle? ;) :)


And yeah, I agree with Bondo pretty much on this one. The true test will definately be at Skate America.

[Schmeck]

danibellerika, you didn't answer the question, just evaded it. Do you yawn when other skaters use overused music, or only when Michelle does?

[Buzzing84]

No offense, but if the system is so good for Michelle, why is she quoted as being very resistant to it saying in essence she was made by the 6.0 system and won't change for it. Besides, I think if the CoP was going to change Worlds results last year, it would be Sasha who gains the edge, not Michelle because Sasha would have built up more of a lead through the first two rounds. No system fair system of judging would have given Michelle gold at Dortmund.

I think we'll all see how the CoP treats everyone come Skate America.


I'm going to start first by saying that I'm not sure how many of the people posting in this thread are skaters themselves, but as someone who skates I do know good skating when I see it. I'm not saying that because I skate, I have a better understanding of the CoP than others here, because I know that I don't. There's actually no rule in CoP that restricts skaters from doing the same choreography in every one of there programs, and I don't think the system allows for comparison between previous years programs. As some other posters have pointed out, Michelle still skates better than so many others even when she is just doing crossovers. This is not to say that I enjoy seeing her empty programs, and I do agree that they're empty, but her overall quality is still much higher.

Bondo, you often seem to get angry when people misread what you've written. Now you're guilty of the same thing. Although I was talking about Michelle in my previous post, and perhaps the sequencing of sentences was a bit misleading, I never said, "Michelle would have won gold in Dortmund had CoP been in use." I said Shizuka would not have won. At the very least, Arakawa's second triple-triple combination was cheated, as well as the one in the short program. I think most of us know the ramifications of that under the new system. The cheated jumps get counted as doubles done poorly and the points given drop severely. Other than that, I won't argue any other placements because it's pointless to say, "If Michelle had been second in thhe short and then Arakawa had the deductions for cheated triples...." and so on. I never said who I thought would win, just who I thought wouldn't. Apology accepted.

Also I'd like to see the quote where Michelle said she wouldn't change her skating for the CoP. From everything I've read since Campbell's, it seems as though she is certainly doing things to adjust her skating to the new system.

"Here, tonight, I had to do the layback, and 'Whoa!' Its hard with the new system to be doing them because you have to do like four different positions. You're grabbing your leg, twisting and moving this way and that. It takes a long time to get used to."

Now to me, that doesn't sound like, "With the new system there's just too much that you have to do in order to get points, and it just seems too hard to me so I'm not going to do it."

[danibellerika]

danibellerika, you didn't answer the question, just evaded it. Do you yawn when other skaters use overused music, or only when Michelle does?

For one, I didn't evade the question she asked ME earlier in the thread. Since this one wasn't directed at me, I don't have to answer (wouldn't have had to if it was directed at me). But since you have now asked me, then I shall answer. Overused music or music associated with someone else can make me yawn, Michelle or not. I love music and as I have stated before in another thread, there is just too much beautiful music going around to hear the same pool of stuff over and over. I'd like to see a top skater nowadays go out and do something really original for a lp. If they do well with it, it can then inspire younger skaters to do so as well. But, since all of the top 3 ladies are doing overused or well known pieces, there's nothing I can do about it but hope that the programs themselves are good. As of now though, all I have to go on is the music itself, and nobody's choice has me all that excited right now.

Also I'd like to see the quote where Michelle said she wouldn't change her skating for the CoP. From everything I've read since Campbell's, it seems as though she is certainly doing things to adjust her skating to the new system.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/9805609.htm

"I don't want to change myself and mold myself into the new system," Kwan said. "The old system is what made me."

[Buzzing84]

In the context of the article, it seemed as though Michelle was speaking specificlly about the what in the old system are the artistic or presentation marks.

[lilwish]

Actually, yeah, I yawn even more when others do this with music because I would rather watch Michelle skate to anything at all than to watch someone else. I was merely mentioning that I personally would prefer it if Michelle didn't choose a piece of music so clearly associated with many other skaters and piece of music I could die happily never hearing again. I like it best when ALL skaters choose music that in new because it introduces me to another piece of music and usually it challenges the skater. I especially enjoy when MK does it because I feel she does better with music like this.

Michelle is my very very favorite all time ever skater always. That doesn't mean I have to drink the cool aide and pretend to LOVE every decision she makes.

[lilwish]

Thanks Buzzing. I completly agree about the 3/3, either you have it or you don't. Just do it. All season. Consistently so that when you NEED it it is there for you at your toes. Effortlessly...I know she can do it. I really would like to see her do it.

Maybe we could start a topic about cop out of this thread. I am sure I am not the only one confused about it. With the season starting, I would love to have someone besides dick or peggy explain it to me.

[loveskating]

"As far as the CoP goes, it will absolutely benefit Kwan. Some people may not agree with me, but it's clear that Arakawa would not be the world champion today if CoP had been in use in Dortmund. It seems as though this system was created specifically for Michelle."

I think Arakawa would be the world champ, clearly!

Kwan might benefit from her legendary consistency on jumps in competitions, but otherwise, since she has never had tough jump entries, and only a level 2 spiral to back up those jumps, I'm not sure that she will benefit from COP IF others have the kind of fully loaded and complex programs Sasha has had for the past two years (like serpentine footwork into 2 axel and flip).

What the COP rewards is the kind of skating that is characteristic of Abt and Kulik, almost never on the flat, lots of difficult jump entires, not just steps, but footwork and elements into jumps, etc.

[Kemy]

If COP had been used, I think it would have been a toss up between Sasha and Shizuka...with the title going to Sasha IF she had kept the TT version of Swan Lake. With the Robin Lake, Shizuka would have won hands down despite getting dinged for the short program.

Until Skate America, we won't know how Kwan's programs will be affected by the scoring changes because she never had a program last year that was COP oriented. There are two many ifs here to even try to say that Michelle will do well or will falter under the new system. It's all a matter of how far she's willing to stick her heck out, which is the biggest question mark since she hasn't had to under the 6.0 system.

Recent articles give indications of more difficulty and new elements being added.

Article has info about Campbells (SPOILER!!)
http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/sports/1096804617146700.xml

Another (SPOILER!!)-filled article
http://goldenskate.com/articles/2004/100204_l.shtml

[Tapper]

Thanks for the articles, Kemy! :)

[Buzzing84]

What is so hard to understand here. The only clear thing is that Shizuka cheated the second jump on two of her triple-triples, with a questionable landing on the triple-triple-double. This would be like the equivalent of doing a triple-double and then turning out of the double. CoP rewards jumps done well, not ambitious programs that can't be completed cleanly. The best example I can think of is Jennifer Don winning Nebelhorn Trophy under the inception of the new system. She did what she could do with utmost perfection. That is what is rewarded. Once again, I never said that Michelle would have won Worlds last year, just that Shizuka would not have.

[hiliairyh]

Do you like to ask those types of questions to anyone that isn't gung ho about something Michelle may be doing? Would you ask these questions if this thread were about someone other than Michelle? ;) :)




Yes, I will if I see posters who are not gung ho about other skaters e.g. Sasha Cohen, or Yin Bin skaitng to overused music. :lol:

I already said I am not too fond of the music Bolero, and I think probably the best skaters for this piece are Kat or Maria

[danibellerika]

Yes, I will if I see posters who are not gung ho about other skaters e.g. Sasha Cohen, or Yin Bin skaitng to overused music. :lol:



But when Sasha's music was announced, where were you? You seem to have become more inquisitive with Michelle as the topic.

[Artemis]

Hmm, I'll have to wait to see the whole program before I fully pass judgment, but based on the clips of Bolero I've seen so far, I can't say I'm too impressed. Michelle definitely has the artistic ability to be able interpret this music in her own unique and special way, which would negate any "this music is overdone" arguments ... but I didn't see any evidence of her doing that in the clips I saw. In other words, I don't see that she's "grown" musically at all. If anything, quite the opposite.

[icedancer2]

ITA Artemis -- Her "interpretation" of Bolero just looked to me like Michelle Kwan's skating -- just about any music could have been playing...

I guess we have to wait to see it in person or on television any time this fall.

[hiliairyh]

But when Sasha's music was announced, where were you? You seem to have become more inquisitive with Michelle as the topic.

Next time send me a pm or post a link here so that I can ask the evillle questions.

In fact where is that Sasha thread? Did people yawn at Sasha's music choices before they even saw the programs?

[danibellerika]

Will do!

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=14484&page=1&pp=25

And yes, ppl did yawn...kinda

[lilwish]

this is off topic of Bolero in specific but speaks to "overused" music or even music that is used often.

I can not tell you what it is like to go to Nationals and hear the same piece of music over and over again because many skaters are using it. It is really uninspiring.

As to Sasha, I was not thrilled with her choices this year either. Although, for her, Romeo and Juliet is the exception to the rule for me (I know it's not consistent) but it suits her so perfectly that I love it.

Still, I really wish ALL skaters would try to find some new pieces of music to express. The music that is chosen makes a very powerful difference in the program (obviously).

All of that said, in the end, Michelle always makes me love her programs. She always gives me personally a sense of peace and makes me feel serene.

[danibellerika]

lilwish, I sent you a PM.