JGP Harbin, China - Results

[lotusland]

The event is over, you can check out the complete results at:

http://www.isufs.org/results/jgpchn2004/index.htm

There are a couple of surprises, at least for some of the fans ;)

[WeBeEducated]

The USA isnt doing very well this year at the JGP.
What happened to Wesley? 8O Looks like he must not have landed any good jumps in the free.
Who would have thought that our strength would be in dance?

[robertp]

I wonder how much the new scoring system plays into this years resuls? The feedback that I recieved on some of China's results is that some of the officials of the scoring system made some errors (similar to the Korean mistake at the olympics) and the results were affected due to these mistakes.

It appears that there were so many mistakes that one coach was told to not bother with a protest because there were just so many mistakes that nothing could be done. I am not suggesting anything crooked happened, but I am suggesting that the system is in it's infancy and the judges and officials are trying to get used to it themselves. One official even apologized for the mistakes that cost one team dearly. We will all have to "grin and bear it" until the kinks get worked out.

Also, it is possible that the new scoring system has some interesting new values to it. Obviously Chitwood and Smith are happy with how well the scoring system evaluated their skate. To medal at your first Jr. Grand Prix is quite an accomplishment. The new system may have favored their strengths, wherein, the past system did not.

Anyway, just some thoughts on the whys without knowing all the particulars.

[tulip]

It appears that there were so many mistakes that one coach was told to not bother with a protest because there were just so many mistakes that nothing could be done. I am not suggesting anything crooked happened, but I am suggesting that the system is in it's infancy and the judges and officials are trying to get used to it themselves. One official even apologized for the mistakes that cost one team dearly. We will all have to "grin and bear it" until the kinks get worked out.


Can you elaborate? In pairs and dance, the results looked quite fair to me considering what the protocols suggested each team attempt. Was it the Russian dance team that came second? Were they judged incorrectly in the FD? Or was it Pratt and Gilles?

[robertp]

It is my understanding that the base scores were often incorrect. The "caller" was also suggesting that some elements should not be scored because of some problem. This happened with many teams from what I understand but, yes the Russian team had some concerns as did Pratt/Gilles. It is entirely possible though, that a misunderstanding of the rules caused some of the athletes to perform things that were "illegal" while not thinking that they were. P/G as an example did a lift with an added edge in the middle of the lift. This was considered illegal as it was "two lifts". It is possible that Gilles left the edge and caused it to be a two lift or the additional edge was the cause of the illegality. Not exactly sure what the problem was.

Once again, these are all kinks in the system that will be worked out as both athlete, coach, choreographer and judges come to understand the system better.

What is you understanding of these issues and did it affect the other disciplines?

[Artemis]

Great showing for the Canadian team, though! Especially for Jessica Dubé, to medal in both singles and pairs -- that's a great achievement. I wonder how long she's going to keep competing in both disciplines.

As for the dance results, well I'm not familiar with the other teams, but from what I've seen of Tessa and Scott, I have no problem believing their win was well-deserved under any judging system. They're simply exquisite.

[tulip]

It is my understanding that the base scores were often incorrect. The "caller" was also suggesting that some elements should not be scored because of some problem. This happened with many teams from what I understand but, yes the Russian team had some concerns as did Pratt/Gilles. It is entirely possible though, that a misunderstanding of the rules caused some of the athletes to perform things that were "illegal" while not thinking that they were. P/G as an example did a lift with an added edge in the middle of the lift. This was considered illegal as it was "two lifts". It is possible that Gilles left the edge and caused it to be a two lift or the additional edge was the cause of the illegality. Not exactly sure what the problem was.

Once again, these are all kinks in the system that will be worked out as both athlete, coach, choreographer and judges come to understand the system better.

What is you understanding of these issues and did it affect the other disciplines?

Was the feeling then that Mihkailava/Sergeev and Pratt/Gilles should have placed higher than Virtue/Moir? It appears your first post implies that the "results" in China were wrong so I can only assume you are talking about the ice dance podium. Personally, I find it hard to believe that Pratt/Gilles should be beating Virtue/Moir.

I just looked at the marks and Virtue/Moir were quite far ahead of the other two teams on the TCS mark in the freedance and I doubt any team had a higher degree of difficulty than V/M so I think their win was justified.

[robertp]

No, I was not suggesting that Tessa and Scott did not deserve their win. They are a fine team and are doing well. Thank you for bringing that up, just in case there was some misunderstanding.

What I was suggesting....since the question was about Wesley, was that many skaters, coaches and judges are in a learning process about the new scoring process. We are all learning what it takes to rack up points. Further, it is possible that some kinks in the system have affected some of the teams/individuals. It is possible that a cheated jump with some flaws can severely affect a score of someone attempting more difficult moves. Or, if there is some question about the base score of an element (in singles, usually a spin sequence or foot sequence I would think) could affect the scoring. Is it possible that these changes have affected a wonderful up and coming skater in Mr. Campbell? We will all be adjusting for a while.

The example of the lift w/ P/G is a good example. No score was given and a deduction was taken. Was it really an illegal lift because he added an edge? or did his edge change due to an imbalance for a moment and thus, it was an illegal lift? or did the caller not understand that this was legal? These are some of the kinks in the system (I like the system myself and thought about this type of system myself about 7-8 years ago)

So..., please, do not read sour grapes into the post. I am happy for Tessa and Scott and Chitwood/Smith and others that have done well during this JGP season. I saw Scott and Tessa in Toronto about a year ago during a NAC and was impressed. (even though we had to watch in the dark..ha, ha...it was during the blackout of the east coast)

But, there were apparently many skaters/judges in China that had questions about why something was given a certain base score, or why something wasn't scored at all, or why a fall was still not given a mandatory -3. As I stated previously, it is my understanding that an official apologized for the many mistakes and the confusion that resulted. Though, I was not there and can not attest to the accuracy of this statement.

[robertp]

If I knew how to take a post from somewhere else and put it here I would... but, the USFS has issued a clarification of the rules for junior and senior dancers on their website today. I think this is a result of some of the things I was referring to. It has been difficult to interpret what is expected and some confusion has resulted. The announcement should help some of the teams that have not competed yet.

It also appears that the callers are not yet consistent, which is what I was referring to in China. As we all get more accustomed to this, things will work out.

[Twizzlers]

If I knew how to take a post from somewhere else and put it here I would... but, the USFS has issued a clarification of the rules for junior and senior dancers on their website today. I think this is a result of some of the things I was referring to. It has been difficult to interpret what is expected and some confusion has resulted. The announcement should help some of the teams that have not competed yet.


Here is the link- ask and you shall receive!!

http://www.usfsa.org/Story.asp?id=26744

[sk8around]

there was nothing wrong with pratt/gilles lift in budapest nor china. they were executed exactly the same and have been reviewed and have since been found that there shouldn't have been a deduction. this is the nature of the sport however callers need to look at everything more carefully and watch practices closely and judges need to learn to take the mandator full deductions as it says in the rules. Even if it is from your own country.