Judging Question, JPG Courcheval

[ClevelandDancer]

Ah, finally GP/JGP season is here :)

I forget the spoiler policy here, but the lady that came in last place in the SP can't possibly be shown on TV ...

27 Avantika VAISHNAV IND 5.03 4.05 1.98 0.44 0.56 0.50 0.50 0.47 1.00 #13

I don't mean to pick on her, but with the girl in first having 54.42 points, the girl in 26th having 23.28 points, I'm wondering what a 5.03 point program means as far as content/quality/etc. I think it's safe to say that she must have hit no required elements. I'm wondering what she attempted, I would hazard a guess that she didn't even attempt most (if any) of the requirements. Single jumps? Falling on single jumps? Just skating laps around the rink? What does a 5.03 mean?

I guess what I'm trying to get at ... this is the first time I've seen results for a skater from India. If this was a typical showing for this skater, it's obvious that she/the Indian skating program isn't ready for international competition, though I understand that you have to start sometime and somewhere. I'm wondering what level this skater would be competitive at in the U.S. (or Canada), i.e., Preliminary, Juvenile, Intermediate?

[icyboid]

Poor girl, looks like she did nothing but single jumps and spins that may not have been up to even minimal standards.

But considering that she's from India and young, I admire her bravery.

[fadedstardust]

Isn't the JGP series by invite only? How did she get sent there with single jumps??

[cygnus]

Isn't the JGP series by invite only? How did she get sent there with single jumps??

Probably because India is new to the ISU, and they wanted to give it a chance to "build up" some skaters. They have to start somewhere, and it might as well be here.

BTW, Canada has the Singhs, a Junior pairs team- 11th at last nationals in Juniors. I believe they are Indian (maybe dual?) citizens. They may never make worlds representing Canada- but maybe they could skate for India, now that it is a member of the ISU, and make a respectable showing there? It might be a better start for India's international skating scene than this.

[Trillian]

Isn't the JGP series by invite only?

Actually, it isn't. Every country is entitled to a certain number of entries, based on past junior worlds results, which is why the fields are so much bigger than the senior Grand Prix. Countries like the U.S., Canada, and Russia, which usually have two entries in pretty much every event, have earned the right to do that because of junior worlds results. I'm not sure what's the minimum number of entries they'd give a country like India--they might be allowed one in each event, if they could come up with that many skaters--but everyone is allowed to send skaters to the JGP.

[buttlefan]

Detailed judging scores have been posted.
It looks like the skater did the following elements in the short:
circular step seq, single loop, camel combo spin, ?, upright spin, single toe, spiral step, single lutz combo, layback

The ? was marked down as an A on the sheet...I don't think it's an axel, because a single axel is written as 1A. It may have been an extra element. At any rate, she didn't receive credit for much of what she completed, because the elements were not according to requirements.

[dr.frog]

The ? was marked down as an A on the sheet...I don't think it's an axel, because a single axel is written as 1A.

"A" is a waltz jump or waxel. It's counted as the required axel jump for the purposes of ticking off the required elements, but receives 0 points. (Same thing happened to Ryan Jahnke in the short program at Skate America last year when he skated into a divot on his axel entry and never got the jump into the air.)

[ClevelandDancer]

Detailed judging scores have been posted.
It looks like the skater did the following elements in the short:
circular step seq, single loop, camel combo spin, ?, upright spin, single toe, spiral step, single lutz combo, layback

The ? was marked down as an A on the sheet...I don't think it's an axel, because a single axel is written as 1A. It may have been an extra element. At any rate, she didn't receive credit for much of what she completed, because the elements were not according to requirements.

Hmmm ... I tried to match up the elements she did with the requirements. The step sequences match the requirements. Jumpwise, she has an extra jump in there, it looks like they counted the waltz as the 2A, the single loop as the triple out of footwork, the single lutz combo as the combo, and discarded the single toe. It looks like she got credit for the combo spin, but neither of her other spins counted as the solo spin nor flying spin for whatever reason.

I looked at the freeskate too, looks like the most difficult thing she landed (or attempted) was a single lutz. I'm guessing she'd fit into a pre-preliminary group here in the states, most competitive preliminary skaters have an axel.

This reminds me of this African swimmer from the 2000 Olympics. I can't believe I managed to Google this on the first try ...

http://www.canoe.ca/2000GamesColumnists/stevenson_sep19.html

He was the first person to ever compete for his country, taught himself to swim in a hotel pool because it was the only pool in the entire country. He swam the 100m freestyle, and his qualifying heat was the first time he ever swam that far (according to the article). I remember from the TV commentary that some people were actually concerned he might drown out there and was lucky some of the best swimmers in the world were out there to save him if need be.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. It is one thing to include an athlete in the Olympics for the sake of inclusion, as it happens once every four years and has the whole "bringing the world together" connotation. I'm wondering about the value, social/political/experience/otherwise, about including skaters that are so far out in events such as the JGP that happen 6 times each year. I did more Googling ... this girl is their national champ, they will have another skater competing at the upcoming China JPG event. Hmmm ... mixed feelings ...

[what?meworry?]

Actually, it isn't. Every country is entitled to a certain number of entries, based on past junior worlds results, which is why the fields are so much bigger than the senior Grand Prix. Countries like the U.S., Canada, and Russia, which usually have two entries in pretty much every event, have earned the right to do that because of junior worlds results. I'm not sure what's the minimum number of entries they'd give a country like India--they might be allowed one in each event, if they could come up with that many skaters--but everyone is allowed to send skaters to the JGP.
i believe you're right that every country has the option of one competitor. in attempting to find out if usfs was trading "spots" to other countries for some reason or another, i found that so many countries entitled to spots in each jgp do not use them that usfs NOT sending someone to fill an earned spot (the jgp dance in california, for example, where one of three permitted apparently is not being filled) is not a factor and could not be "traded" for anything at all. write that original thought off to the cynic in me.

[fadedstardust]

I guess I don't see the point in having a competitor go if she doesn't have the required elements that her competitors will have. She may be their national champ, but, while they may not have the resources as of yet to train world champions, they must see Worlds. Or they could at least inquire as to what is needed to be a competitor at these events. She had NO chance of finishing anything but last- so she wasn't going to earn anyone spots for anything. Thus making me wonder why in the HECK they would send her. She's not going to learn her triples by going to that event. I think it's a cruel thing to do to someone. Being National champ is cool, I mean she's competing against people of her country who presumably have similar training facilities. But sending her to an international with SINGLE JUMPS is ridiculous. Gosh, if I never place at Nationals here, I'm moving to India. ;)

[jp1andOnly]

I guess I don't see the point in having a competitor go if she doesn't have the required elements that her competitors will have. She may be their national champ, but, while they may not have the resources as of yet to train world champions, they must see Worlds. Or they could at least inquire as to what is needed to be a competitor at these events. She had NO chance of finishing anything but last- so she wasn't going to earn anyone spots for anything. Thus making me wonder why in the HECK they would send her. She's not going to learn her triples by going to that event. I think it's a cruel thing to do to someone. Being National champ is cool, I mean she's competing against people of her country who presumably have similar training facilities. But sending her to an international with SINGLE JUMPS is ridiculous. Gosh, if I never place at Nationals here, I'm moving to India. ;)

If we all had attitudes like yours the Chinese would have never entered a pairs competition and thus we wouldn't have the awesome pairs skaters

[fadedstardust]

A Chinese pairs team entered a Junior/Senior qualifying event with only single jumps? I think their training made them awesome, not having entered in a specific competition...

[schnood]

BTW, Canada has the Singhs, a Junior pairs team- 11th at last nationals in Juniors. I believe they are Indian (maybe dual?) citizens. They may never make worlds representing Canada- but maybe they could skate for India, now that it is a member of the ISU, and make a respectable showing there? It might be a better start for India's international skating scene than this.

I remember seeing them in Edmonton, they're a young team and I think they have some promise/potential....but with the depth of the field in Canada they'd be better off representing India.

[icyboid]

A Chinese pairs team entered a Junior/Senior qualifying event with only single jumps? I think their training made them awesome, not having entered in a specific competition...

There was a Shen/Zhao fluff piece at this past worlds that mentioned how several years before the VERY first Chinese pairs team performed so terribly at their first international competition that the audience laughed at their performance.

jp1andOnly was trying to state that one of the strongest pair skating countries in the world had a humble beginning as well.

I don't think it's cruel or pointless that this girl entered without coming remotely close to the caliber of the rest of the field. It doesn't matter that she's horribly outclassed, it doesn't change the fact that she's a pioneer for Indian skating. Who knows, she might have been thrilled just to be at an international competition and see double and triple jumps done right before her eyes.

[Sylvia]

There was a Shen/Zhao fluff piece at this past worlds that mentioned how several years before the VERY first Chinese pairs team performed so terribly at their first international competition that the audience laughed at their performance.

It was, in fact, Bin YAO (coach of Shen & Zhao, Pang & Tong, Zhang & Zhang) who recounted hearing people laughing at him and his pair partner at his first Worlds in Dortmund, Germany (coincidentally) in the 1980's.

[fadedstardust]

Yes, it was their coach who was laughed at in competition, not them. And while they did badly, I *assume* (perhaps wrongly) that they still had the necessary elements to compete, there's a difference between popping everything and performing horribly but having the requirements (think Weir, 2003, or even Angela Nikodiv this past year...) and not having the stuff needed to compete. I'm just saying, going to competitions is a good experience sure, but, it's not going to teach that girl the difficult elements needed. If she'd done all doubles then I would have seen the point. But all singles, I mean she wouldn't even have placed in Pre-Preliminary most likely. At that level you don't need International competition experience. That's just my view on it. If India wanted to send her and she was happy to be there, then good for her. I just find it absurd, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone, that's not my intention.

[Sylvia]

Yes, it was their coach who was laughed at in competition, not them. And while they did badly, I *assume* (perhaps wrongly) that they still had the necessary elements to compete, ...

To further clarify -- Bin YAO was the pair skater who was laughed at during his first Worlds as part of the first Chinese pair team that was sent to a World Championships. And, from what I remember, this Chinese pair did NOT have the necessary pair elements to compete at that level, but it was a first step for them to see and experience first-hand how far they needed to go and what they needed to learn/improve in order to succeed internationally.

[dr.frog]

At the time Bin Yao and his partner first competed at Worlds in the early 1980's, China was still very isolated from the West, it wasn't possible for skaters and coaches to train abroad, it was difficult even to get video of high-level competitions for study purposes, etc. That isn't true of India today. Rather than spending their budget on sending basic-skills level skaters to elite competitions, it might be better for a federation in a country with a developing skating program to send some skaters and coaches to train with and learn from more experienced peers in other countries, or to bring in guest coaches to share their knowledge. Just my $.02.

[ClevelandDancer]

At the time Bin Yao and his partner first competed at Worlds in the early 1980's, China was still very isolated from the West, it wasn't possible for skaters and coaches to train abroad, it was difficult even to get video of high-level competitions for study purposes, etc. That isn't true of India today. Rather than spending their budget on sending basic-skills level skaters to elite competitions, it might be better for a federation in a country with a developing skating program to send some skaters and coaches to train with and learn from more experienced peers in other countries, or to bring in guest coaches to share their knowledge. Just my $.02.

Well said! These skaters would be better served sending them to some sort of skating seminar/camp for a week than a trip to a JGP event. There are lots of resources readily available on the internet (jump AVI's, program requirements, training tips), lots of televised events, video tapes, etc., these days, that "not knowing what is expected" really shouldn't be an issue.

If India wanted to send her and she was happy to be there, then good for her. I just find it absurd, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone, that's not my intention.

I agree. From my personal perspective, I wouldn't want to participate in an event where I would be so horribly outclassed. If she was in it for an expense paid vacation to France, courtesy of the Indian skating federation, more power to her I guess. If the girl was trying at least doubles in competition I'd feel differently.

IMO, the one saving grace here is that India isn't taking spots away from any other country. There are a lot of resources that could be better utilized, including competition ice and judges' time, but if the ISU and Indian skating federation choose to spend these resources in this manner it isn't a huge deal.

[icyboid]

Just to clear things up, I didn't say Shen/Zhao were the very first team, I meant that part of their fluff piece was devoted to the very first team.

On a related topic, there appears to be Thailand entries in the JGP Long Beach ladies' and men's competitions. Is that also an ISU international first?