Drop Subjective Sports from Olys?

[md2be]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/josh_elliott/08/25/blog/index.html?cnn=yes

unreasonable, irrational, and completely forgetting the big $ signs. But your thoughts....?

[Flatfoote]

Hogwash and then some!

Other sports have questionable officiating. What about the men's basketball team (can't remember what year), where the USA refused their silver medals, due to bad officiating. Or even in swimming this year, where one swimmer was overlooked for using a questionable "dolphin" kick. Another swimmer was DQ'ed, then that judgement overruled for doing an ileagle turn.

So, "judged" sports are not the only ones with problems.

[Anemone]

In thinking about figure skating, gymnastics, springboard diving, synchronized swimming, etc., I wondered whether all judges of such sports should be forced to study videotapes before making their decisions. Then the athletes wouldn't have to sit around in Kiss-and-cry (and other such areas) waiting for scores that are rendered way too quickly, IMHO, and the scoring might be less vulnerable to error.

[Anemone]

Just read the article. The author made some good points, perhaps the best of which is the ephemeral, vague nature of a "win" in some of these sports. There was nothing irrational in that article. Wishful thinking, maybe. But it is true that the $ issue trumps all others, sad to say, so we'll have to suffer through intriguing judging calls, or else mute the sound and simply watch the athletes, without regard for who "wins."

[AxelAnnie22]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/josh_elliott/08/25/blog/index.html?cnn=yes

unreasonable, irrational, and completely forgetting the big $ signs. But your thoughts....?
As much as I enjoy figure skating at the OLYS, I agree 100%---judged sports should not be part of the Olympics.

And, neither should non "amateur" atheleees (that would be any athelete who earns more than 10% of his income from his sport, endorsements, housing allowances, etc)

[AxelAnnie22]

Hogwash and then some!

Other sports have questionable officiating. What about the men's basketball team (can't remember what year), where the USA refused their silver medals, due to bad officiating. Or even in swimming this year, where one swimmer was overlooked for using a questionable "dolphin" kick. Another swimmer was DQ'ed, then that judgement overruled for doing an ileagle turn.

So, "judged" sports are not the only ones with problems.
"Officiating" is entirely different than judging.

[Wink]

"Officiating" is entirely different than judging.

With this logic you could easily say there should only be individual sports or athletics. How fast, how high, how strong, how far an individual can jump, run or throw etc. You get my drift. Team sports have all kinds of refereeing or officiating judgments that take the sport out of the hands of the athlete. But this would do away with all the grunt testosterone laden team sports that most journalist and men think they were once great at. Keep the true sports that real athletes compete in not the girly boy sports. Ok the girls can compete but as long as they join the club of aggression style of play we like in basketball, hockey and soccer, beach volleyball is OK, we love those girls. These are the same guys that only show highlights of basketball, baseball, golf, football and hockey every night over and over and over. Take out the subjective sports and leave us with the drug heads and muscle bulging genetically altered freaks. Those must be the real athletes that deserve the honor to compete at the Olympics.

[loveskating]

"Officiating" is entirely different than judging.

As someone who played basketball competitively and who also skated (not competitively) I can assure you that in basketball there is enormous latitude for a referee to make calls (officiate) in a partisan and/or corrupt manner. There are close calls, as to out of bounds, as to fouls, as to a tie ball, as to traveling, particularly on the arm over traveling call, even as to how you throw the ball in a tied ball toss!

If corrupt people want to fix a basketball game, there is wide latitude to do so.

Also, what is the reason for defining "amateur" by income as opposed to content of the skating -- because that is pretty much what the dividing line is in skating now.

To me, there is little difference between a college football player and a professional one...this has been so for a long time, back when Bill Bradley was in a class of mine at UT in the 1960s!! Now more is on the books is all, or put another way, and its corporations like Nike running the high school and college show air tight instead of local alumni.

Me, I think what the US needs as to skating is a fund like they have in Italy and Russia...to support athletes who have great talent but are not rich. Otherwise, you basically have a world in which only the wealthy can fullfill their potential in sports (and as I've said before, a country systematically ignores 80% or more of its own talent pool).

Then the dividing line for "amateur" vs. "pro" would be whether you qualify for tund support or not.

Me, I think much of the corruption comes from us...whining because the brutal economy we have for working class people (where real income is still declining as jobs are taken offshore) does not allow a talent pool that can match that of any country where athletes are supported by a national fund or the state.

It is not brain science to note that if here, Yagudin, Plushenko, Kulik, B&S, Irina, Volchkova...all would not have been able to skate even at the entry level!

[Anemone]

loveskating, how right you are.

[skatepixie]

Um...I think the IOC would go broke...

[roogu]

exactly, the olympics would lose so much if they dropped judged sports ....... and if you think they should drop judged sports.......what about the sports that are abound with doped athletes like weightlifting huh? or what about 'sports' like 'skeet shooting'? Like come on.

[AxelAnnie22]

With this logic you could easily say there should only be individual sports or athletics. How fast, how high, how strong, how far an individual can jump, run or throw etc. You get my drift. Team sports have all kinds of refereeing or officiating judgments that take the sport out of the hands of the athlete. But this would do away with all the grunt testosterone laden team sports that most journalist and men think they were once great at. Keep the true sports that real athletes compete in not the girly boy sports. Ok the girls can compete but as long as they join the club of aggression style of play we like in basketball, hockey and soccer, beach volleyball is OK, we love those girls. These are the same guys that only show highlights of basketball, baseball, golf, football and hockey every night over and over and over. Take out the subjective sports and leave us with the drug heads and muscle bulging genetically altered freaks. Those must be the real athletes that deserve the honor to compete at the Olympics.
I always recommend a dictionary for some of this stuff.

Referee: a sports official usually having final authority in administering a game
(note the use of the word administering - not deciding - although a call may decide the game.)

Official: one who administers the rules of a game or sport especially as a referee or umpire

Judge 1 : to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises

2 : to determine or pronounce after inquiry and deliberation



Officiating can have lots of bad calls....sure. Corrupt officials---of course. Thank goodness that now, some sports are using instant replay to decide questionable decisions. But what is being called is was the ball in or out, was there holding or not, did he step out of bounds or not. Never do I like their costume, smile, "perkiness" or use of the arena. A judged sport is a whole different animal. I have a very good friend who won an OLY gold at Nagano-------in a judged sport. He doesn't try to lie about it, or pretend it is not a different animal. You win or lose by the luck of the draw. (And the country the judge is from, or the side of the bed he/she got up on. I ride competitively. It is exactly the same kind of sport. Judged sport. Now, jumpers, that's a different animal (no pun intended) --- clear (no poles down) and fastest wins. End of story. In hunters----you jump the 8 jumps, but if the judge is just not fond of grays (or bays, or whatevers) forget about it! Same with skating. Sad but true.

[fadedstardust]

Maybe dropping judged sports wouldn't be the answer. Maybe making those sports different would be. The COP is a step in the right direction but it's not an answer. And just look what happened in men's all around gynmastics, it's ridiculous. Something else needs to happen, I don't know what. The idea of not rendering the scores right away is really a good idea. Tape the WHOLE event, watch everyone, take notes, watch everyone again, and give them placements. I mean that would be so much more fair, comparing everyone to each other, having the whole night to go over base values, slow motioning anything for mistakes...that would, I think, be a GIGANTIC step in the right direction.

I don't, personally, know why team sports are a part of the Olympics. In my mind, Olympics are an individual thing, about one person performing at a time. I have no idea why that is, but that's what I feel about the Olympics. Isn't that how it USED to be in the old days in Greece? Individual sports only? Maybe I am wrong.

PS: I don't think gymnastics should be considered a team sport. I don't even know why it is. But no, I don't think judged sports should be removed from the Olympics, I just think there should be a more legitimate way to say who won.

[TashaKat]

As a rule I don't watch or enjoy 'non judged' sports .... the majority bore me rigid. I know a lot of people who feel the same so no, I don't think that judged sports should be dropped.

I agree that judging in 'judged' sports needs to be kept in line but I still prefer to watch skating, gymnastics, dressage etc than marathon running (yawn) and the like!

[tdnuva]

I ride competitively. It is exactly the same kind of sport. Judged sport. Now, jumpers, that's a different animal (no pun intended) --- clear (no poles down) and fastest wins. End of story.
Wish it were like that.... In the three-day-event at this olympics the german team was the best according to the "unjudged parts". But due to a bad decision of the ground jury they changed AFTER the round the team and Bettina Hoy in single lost their medals.... We now were told the the judges who worked at the critical point were not educated in the jumping discipline, only for dressage. Great.

(Btw - after several protests and re-protests the final statement was that the decisions of the ground jury can't be protested at all.)

[Sk8n Mama]

ALL sports have some kind of judge; there's always someone subjective. In track, there's the false start judges, the foul line judges the relay zone judges. In basketball, baseball, volleyball and soccer (among others) there are referees. THe following are all truly officiated sports: judo, taekwondo, wrestling, boxing, diving, synchro swimming, gymnastics, trampoline, rythmic gymnastics, equestrian, fencing....and that's just the summer olympics. The fact is that almost every sport has some sort of referee or official who can be tainted. It's not fair to rob the athletes of a chance to compete in the Olympics because officials are corrupt. The IOC needs to take more responsibility for the fairness of judging at the Olympics rather than punishing the athletes.

Don't worry, guys, figure skating is far too popular an Olympic sport to be going anywhere!!! :)

[2sk8]

Well, we can all criticize judging in figure skating and wonder how the COP will change things – better? worse? (I think it’s pretty clear the anonymity will be worse, IMHO!) But, some of the judging issues in “subjective” sports in the summer Olympics definitely show we skaters aren’t alone. I don’t see ALL “subjective” sports being removed from the Olympics, so there doesn’t seem to be a good basis to single out figure skating.
I wonder if there are any lessons to be jointly learned from the judging fiascos in these other sports; whether the judging can really be made better in time, or whether it is all so politicized that the there will be no choice but for the IOC to ban such sports until the various federations straighten out their acts. I think that is what a lot of it comes down to – the judges & those who train/ select them have to be held more accountable for errors & lack of impartiality.
Maybe someone who knows more than I about judging in these other sports can shed some light on these incidents, and what would occur if something like them happened in figure skating, under COP:
1. What was the deal with Blaine Wilson’s (& another US gymnast) program being set at a lower start value 2 days before the Olympics than it was at their Worlds? Why does gymnastics judging allow 1 judge to do this at an event? Could something like this happen under COP?
2. Then, another gymnastics judging panel sets the DD wrong for the South Korean, leading him to get Bronze & not Gold, and the judges mess up so badly (in the Olympics!) they still certify the results? The judges get sanctioned, but somehow poor Paul Hamm & the South Korean, as the athletes, are supposed to “fix it”? (So, that’s like asking B&S to have “given” their gold medal to S&P because the JUDGES did something wrong? As I understand it, IOC says no 2d medal here because it was a judging mistake, not a criminal act!)
3. Apparently, a Chinese judge in the men’s platform diving was so biased in his scoring, in favor of the Chinese competitors, that he was “relieved of his duties & replaced on the panel” before the next day’s competition. What in the diving judges’ rules allows for this? Could this really happen in figure skating – when the judges are supposed to be anonymous? Maybe this is a step in the right direction?
I’m curious what others think of this.

[loveskating]

Well, AxelAnnie, I think your freind is quite right...various sports are very corrupted...but that is not because they are judged sports.

If you take a look at the incentives for corruption, as in the old days where Mafia type gamblers would use cash and muscle to force a player or jockey or team to throw a game when they were the favorite...its clear that there was millions to be made in such a thing.

What are the incentives now?