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View Full Version : Liberty Open Saturday Report, Sr and Jr. Ladies and Men


haribobo
07-28-2002, 04:05 AM
Hey everyone,
I've finally gotten around to typing up my Saturday notes. Since Louis and some others have already provided technical reports, I thought I'd pitch in with some of my 'general impressions' on Saturday's events. Sorry this is a week late-- school and fatigue got in the way...

I'll post a few thoughts on the senior men, and then jump into more detailed reports on Sr Ladies, Jr. Ladies, and Jr. Men. Plus a little blurb on pairs. :) Yay for skating in the summer! :)

SENIOR MEN FREE SKATE

Scott Smith looks like he hasn't stopped training since nationals, while Derrick and Ryan particularly looked like they are just starting their seasons (which they are, so let's cut them some slack). It'll be interesting to see which strategy proves more successful by the time nationals rolls around. Smith has improved greatly since last season. Good coverage and speed, nice spins. Ryan Jahnke had a good program and gorgeous tano 3lutz. Thank you Ryan for bringing back that great jump! Derrick Delmore has another wonderful free program, this time to West Side Story, doing with this music what T/M could not do last season, *expression*!! I didn't take detailed notes, but this is one you all need to see for yourselves. So great to see Ryan Bradley land a gorgeous clean triple axel. The boy is a gamer-- tried for a 4t and second 3ax later even though there was so little hope for him landing either. Courage is what you need as a senior man though, and I think the failed attempts will serve him well in the long run, as long as he doesn't fall too hard....his other triples are coming along nicely and this program is going to be just fine as he puts more miles on it. It didn't look like all the choreography was there yet but I am not worried. This guy is such an entertainer and really is beginning to look like a contendor to make the final group at Nationals again. I can see him as high as 4th at Nationals if he can execute all his jumps and choreography in both programs. Same could be said for Scott Smith and Derrick Delmore. Danny Clausen was a good mover, confident and in character, good program but I didn't see any 3z or 3axel attempts here, so that will continue to hurt him at Mids. No quad either, of course. Rohene Ward-- just amazing from start to finish, lovely spins, gorgeous moves, great speed and spins. Congrats to him for winning Detroit-- sounds like he was much more *on* with the jumps there. Eric Ritter had ok footwork, lots of plain skating and telegraphing going into the jumps. Nice death drop and spin. OK program. Kurt Fromknecht-- great footwork and cool moves, fun program to music from The Matrix, including parts that K/Dmitriev and the Rogenesses skated to recently. Great idea for a program-- the jumps were not there yet but I still think he has a great shot at making nationals in senior men. I'd imagine that Goebel, Weiss, and Savoie will be the top 3 this year, but 4th seems wide open, the contendors being Delmore, Smith, Weir, Bradley, Jahnke, and Ward. I'm excited about the improvements and changes that many of these men have made since nationals, and I hope I'm able to get a tape of the entire competition because ABC refuses to show more than the top 6 at Nationals, though there will probably be about 12 very tv-worthy performances by the men this year.

SENIOR LADIES FREE SKATE

1. Daria Timoshenko- started off with an intricate and interesting program that had good conviction in her movements, but when the jumps started to fail there really wasn't a whole lot else going on to keep the performance from falling apart. Still, it was nice to see at least one lady have some control over the more difficult triple jumps. Hopefully she'll be able to polish off the end of the program and be a real force wherever she competes this year-- she has the content...

2. Lisa Horstman- I agree with Louis that Lisa was a jump or 2 away from winning the free skate. I noted that she had good speed, fine spins, and generally a solid program with a few bobbles but overall very good. She incorporated some nice field moves as well. Look for her to possibly shake things up at Mids this year.

3. Chloe Katz- I liked her last year but this year she seems to be establishing herself as one of the most elegant and enjoyable senior ladies in the East. I really admired her posture and great layback. Her spins also had great positions. Very fine skater who I hope to see again at Easterns. I also greatly enjoyed her Novice Pairs SP with partner Joseph Lynch so she probably has a better chance at overall success in pairs but it'll be a sad day when she quits singles cause she's so great to watch. As of this competition, she didn't seem to be trying any of the more difficult triples-- I don't think she has anything besides a toe or salchow but that (and her strong basics) was still enough for 3rd place in this field.

4. Heather Geboers- Started off strong with a 3t-2t but then proceeded to mess up just about every other jump in her program. I noted a great camel spin at the beginning of the program. By the end, there were so many jump errors that it was starting to feel like a real disaster despite the great start, and she even fell on a spin at the end. I am surprised she got as high as fourth-- I would have thought the poor ending would have knocked her down to 8th place or so-- for her sake I hope she can hold it together better later in the season. Her SP was very impressive in this field.

5. Stephanie Roth took 5th (I think) with a new program to Sansom & Delilah and started out nice with a great camel spin, other cools spins, and skating with good conviction and improved speed over last year at Easterns. She also had a great Ina Bauer and good spiral, but I noted that she did have a spin problem and falling four times certainly didn't help her. Still, if she can keep her jumps together later in the season, she could (once again) be a major factor at Easterns with this strong program.

6.Kristin Tudisco was, I believe, 6th with good energy, OK spins, and some peppy footwork. A lot of her jumps were either cheated or wonky looking. She's so tiny that I guess there's not a whole lot of muscle in her legs to really bang out any clean, high, gorgeous triples yet. I'm still hoping that she will grow because she just does not look substantial enough in any way to be a real factor at this point. I did admire her spark and energy at this competition, though, because many of the other ladies looked awfully miserable and slow, especially the lower ranked ladies.

7. Krissa Miller skated with an elegant look in her program to Nessun Dorma (Puccini). She started wtih a nice leap, had strong stroking and posture, nice movement overall and fast spins. Jumps were fairly messy but it was nice to see her attacking the program more than she did at Easterns. I have a hard time picturing her making Nationals based on her performance here, but she at least seems to be moving in the right direction and there really is nothing wrong with her overall skating and she seems to have the ability to rotate the difficult jumps-- now just the matter of landing them cleanly...

8. Steffie Smith had fairly strong presentation and good effort in her program to Speed, a good death drop, nice spirals, a footwork problem and a spin at the end that slowed down too much, but overall this program was decent and solid. It was nice to see her put some effort into interpreting the music because whoever else it was that skated to Speed in this competition (I can't remember) was quite awful. She seemed to have the feel for this kind of program. Her doubles were solid and she could contend at Mids if she managed to get some triples in...I'm not expecting to see her at Nationals this year but I look forward to seeing her in the future.

9. Andrea Varraux- it was interesting to see her trying some of the harder triples (lutz and loop) that she couldn't do last year, but she wasn't successful on any of her attempts in this program. She actually failed to even land a double axel cleanly (though she did a beauty in the SP), thus the low placement. I noted that she had nice spins and positions, smooth, quiet blades with great edging, and a very nice program overall. Still, she moves me more as a pairs skater and especially with the great free skate performance (skating with the American David Pelletier), I think that is her true calling...

The only other skater I took notes on was Jennifer McClure because I thought she'd at least contend for a top-ten spot based on her past results. Unfortunately, she was terrible here. Her program and music was boring and unoriginal to me-- there seemed to be no attempts at choreography whatsoever. Spins were ok. I suppose she has a fair amount of talent, but I feel that it's being wasted with this free program. Jumps were a mess. Her SP was a lot better, where I noted she had a good layback, strong basics, and powerful presentation to Gershwin music. And her 2ax there was great, but she seems to be having no success with the triples. I just do not get the feeling that this skater is improving from year to year, and if she doesn't step it up a few notches, I don't see her making it out of South Atlantics.

The senior ladies who placed 10th and below in the freeskate just did not seem to be jumping on a level that would be at all competitive with the top ladies at sectionals, and several of them did not have the basic skating either. Kristin Shearer, Rhiannon Kallis, Jessica Cohen, Cindy Hsieh, and Lisa Plumeri really sucked the energy out of the building with their subpar performances in the free program. I have to wonder, if skating is such an expensive sport to participate in, why do some of these ladies continue to compete if they are clearly not going anywhere? I guess they must *really* love to skate...I suppose these lower-ranked senior ladies allow us to realize how great the top ladies really are.

JUNIOR LADIES FINAL FREESKATE

*This event was very close between all the ladies-- honestly any of the top 4 could have justifiably been placed first. Very high quality skating from all of these ladies. It looks like Junior Ladies at Easterns (and Mids) will be a great event this year.

1. Erica Archambault-- Aside from the 3sal-2t and two 2ax-2t, she landed a whole bunch of nice doubles which gave her enough content for the win despite only one clean triple. I would say she looked like a promising skater-- not quite there yet overall but looking well on her way. Good speed and coverage, spunky, nice sideways spin, good effort on footwork, overally a clean skate so it's not a total surprise that she won. The music was Madame Butterfly, but I was more wondering what AP McD would do with it than interested in what Erica was doing on the ice.....sue me! :) Erica seems to be one of the frontrunners to make nationals but she will need more than 1 triple to get through sectionals, though I hear she is working on that. :)

2. Jane Bugaeva- A much improved Jane this season! Her triple jumps are really coming along and she seems much more substantial overall this year. I would not be surprised to see her near the top at Easterns this season. We (all the people I was sitting with and me) all loved Jane's free program. Nice spins, good attack, and a cute ending.

3. Susannah Hall- This looked like a best-ever performance for her. Skated to Spartacus. Very complete and satisfying performance with great spirals and impressive charlotte, nice layback. The skate was a true joy to watch, one of the highlights of the event for me. As I watched this, I was thinking, "now THIS is what it looks like when a skater performs to her potential!" Susannah is a fantastic looking skater and seemed to have a great tan, her dark skin contrasting with the white dress she was wearing. I hope she can make nationals this season (out of Pacific Coasts I think) because I love this program and more people should get to see it!

4. Kristen Sheaffer- Finished 4th in this free skate though I though she'd get first. Kristen is a very strong skater and looked like the class of a very strong field. She wasn't really on with her jumps at this competition but I'd still be surprised if she didn't medal at Nationals. She had a couple pops so I guess the lack of a lutz and sal hurt her. Strong presentation to Spanish music, is what I wrote ("classical flamenco," says Louis). Good ice coverage, great overall program, and of course nice spins, including the closing yoga spin where she tucks her head under her foot. If she had landed 1 or 2 more triples, nobody would have been able to touch Kristen here. Great originality, costumes, and music choices make me a fan. Her SP to the ER theme was a lot of fun too, even though she didn't hit the jumps.

5. Anna Peng- This is an absolutely gorgeous skater!!! Skated to Butterfly Lovers (did justice to it!) and actually landed some of her jumps this time (every time I have seen her in the past she has had disasters). Great spins, movement, and gorgeous spirals. Graceful and really has *it* as a skater. Her SP inconsistencies could hurt her, but she definitely has the talent to make nationals as a junior this year should things go well for her at Easterns.

6. Alexandra Jasinowski finished 6th though I might have had her a little lower. Nice mover, nice layback, and pretty good program were the positive points. Her jumping technique was really ugly and her triple attempts were not close to being real triples. Cheats and underrotations all over the place, even her 2axel was low and suspicious...I'm curious to see whether she improves this later in the season. Nice 2z-2r-2r combo though. I'm not too optimistic about her chances this year, but you never know...

7. Leah Agler- No luck with the triples in this performance, though I think she has landed one or two in practice and other competitions. Nice spins, great look on the ice enhanced by years of ballet training, great extension on all her moves, including spirals, but she needs more speed and power, noted Ann who sat next to me. Promising young skater.

8. Maggie Leski- I thought I died and went to heaven when she started skating. She only landed one triple and no clean 2ax, but all of the *skating* was wonderful. Great layback, great extension, great footwork!!! (best ladies ftwk of the competition, I think), smooth/quiet blades, awesome spins and presentation. I guess she's skating for Poland. Note to Poland: promote her! She's fantastic! Note to Maggie: get yourself a 2ax and a few triples and you'll be a star!

9. Alexandra Tregre- This was a letdown after her wonderful short program, but the skating was still nice. I think she only managed 2ax, 2z, and 2f, the rest was pretty messy. Very good spinning, great movement and choreography, strong basics and nice spirals. Too bad, hope to see her spreading her joy again at regionals and sectionals. I wouldn't bet on her making nationals this season, but she's another one who is on the way up...

10. Amanda Moehling- Nice layback, pretty average overall, solid, but with boring music. Lots of 2-footed jumps and a couple falls left her with very little clean jump content. She'll have a tough field to face at regionals (and sectionals, if she makes it that far).

11. Kristen Mita- Jumps were a mess this time but she looked capable-- I've heard she has all the triples up through the flip in practice! Nice spins and good presentations. Maybe she's just not in top shape at this point in the season......very enjoyable skater.

12. Sarah Farley- Cool spins-- she's a little spitfire. Very neat and crisp movements. No triples or 2axels put her in last place but she is capable of better than this-- her qualifying skate was quite strong and she has a good chance of making a splash at New England regionals, though it's not a sure thing she'll make sectionals and she doesn't seem to have much of a shot of making nationals this year. I'll look forward to seeing her in the future.

JUNIOR MEN FINAL FREESKATE

Top 6 were very strong skaters.

1. Jason Wong- great win with a really successful program in terms of jumps. At this rate, he could be challenging for the podium at Nationals. Nice spins, good presentation, and solid skating. Great movement.

2. Michael Solonoski- I just love this program to Romeo and Juliet. Nice slow part in the middle to Kissing You with appropriate choreography. ;) Nice spins, mature skater, very nice jump technique. Clean skater with high quality elements and he could challenge at Easterns if he lands his jumps. Of all the Junior Men's freeskates I've seen over the past 2 years, this one and Brad Griffies' skate to Firedance (by Jesse Cook) are my favorites. His qualifying round free skate was also gorgeous and clean. He looked very well prepared for this competition. Nice guy who seems very personable, too.

3. Jeremy Abbott- Another skater who puts me on cloud 9....Great spin positions but needed more speed, strong movement, mature presentation, loved his style, AWESOME posture and positions, I mean, really incredible. He could probably use a little more power overall but what he has now is wonderful and unique for a male skater. I have a hard time describing it but hopefully you'll all see him for yourself someday...precious. I'm hoping he gets through Mids and he'll probably hit the 4-8 range at Nationals.

4. Casey McGraw- now this boy is a pretty strong jumper and has a nice camel, but this program did not do it for me. The skating was OK but the military (JFK?) music was really hard to get into...lots of military march snare drum stuff in the 2nd half that just got to be really redundant and tedious-- and it just was not musical. I just feel that this music is a mistake, but it's not the worst I've ever heard, and I think it should be fine for this season since he's still in juniors. This kind of program is not likely to earn him any fans though, and it would not cut it in seniors. Him and Jeremy Abbott have different strengths but overall are looking pretty similar in overall ability right now, so I have the same prediction for him this season as Abbott. Lots of strong skaters coming out of novice men from last season (Solonoski, Wong, Campbell, Abbott, McGraw......). I'm not sure there are any great novice men this year cause all the good ones moves up to juniors. I heard the novice men at Liberty were NOT enjoyable. I sat through the first 2 freeskates and decided life was too short and went back to the other rink. :p

5. Mauro Bruni- great skater, very nice spins and spirals, could have skated a little faster. Jumps are looking solid this year and nice music (Miss Saigon). Mauro looked confident and elegant in this competition. I appreciate the way he holds moves out, like one of his spirals. If he landed all his jumps, I think he could medal at nationals.

6. Adam Aronowitz had all kinds of jump problems in his Rach freeskate, but it is clear that he can land all the triple jumps through the lutz based on his other performances and practices here and at other competitions. I don't think he's inconsistent, this was just somewhat of an off night for him. Nice movement, speed, presentation, great death drop to sit spin, good spiral. Elegant, great spins, very strong program. Adam's skating is really coming along great, though he wasn't bad at all last year. I am predicting that he'll make the podium at Nationals if he can keep from flipping out and falling on the jumps that he is capable of landing.

7. Nathan Evancho had some nice jumps but one spin problem......overall nice spins, good speed and movement. Some good moves but really not commanding or sharp. He looks like he needs another year as junior to really be at the top of the field, but good for him to make it to the final free skate and I think he has potential.

8. Craig Ratterree- was awesome in the qualifying free skate and this was a notch down from that. Jumps were pretty messy-- very nice spins, nice moving, cool choreography, nice and light movement. I liked his music, pretty different from what you normally get. He wasn't quite in that top league overall with his skating and Ann pointed out that he needed more speed and power, which I agree with. This is a skater with soul on the ice though, I was able to feel what he was presenting. I hope to see more of this one. Loved the program.

9. Nick Kole- Presentation not too bad, but really sloppy on the jumps. All I wrote was, "What a mess!"

10. Joseph Lynch- Jumps were ok, no triples, smooth footwork, slow skating, easy choreography, spins were not good. Overall average skater.

I didn't watch any novice men or ladies, pairs were covered pretty well in other reports. Overall Jordan/Barrett continue to impress me, Varraux/Pelletier had an excellent free skate which was a major turnaround from their poor showing in the short program. Their twist seems to be the weakest element for them. I find both of these pairs to be creative, clever, and exciting and hope they have successful seasons. The 3 novice pairs were all at about the same level-- Katz/Lynch did an intermediate freeskate which I missed, but anyway, based on their SP, they are better than all the intermediates AND novices. I imagine they'll skate novice this year and should do well at Nationals. Phibbs/Patrick and Evora/Ladwig were impressive in the senior pairs exhibition. Elements were almost there, skating was STRONG! I wouldn't expect them to hit the top 10 at Nationals this year, but who knows what they could do in 2004. Senior Pairs in the US looks like it's finally picking up-- lots of pairs with good skating and sbs triples and throw triples. 2003 Nationals should have a really deep field barring too many injuries.

I had a great time at Liberty Open and would recommend going next year to any skating fan. I got to see a lot of skaters I had never seen before and came away with a good sense of where skaters are at at this point in the season. For some, you can tell who hasn't taken any time off vs. the skaters who just started training again for next season. Of course, some skated new programs and others kept the same ones from last year, so the results should not be taken too seriously. Yet, for the top skaters here, winning this was a big step to establishing themselves as a major contendor for regionals and sectionals down the line. Thanks to all the skaters, fellow fans, and organizers for making this such a fun competition to be at. Already looking forward to next year. Yours,

Haribobo

haribobo
07-29-2002, 08:19 PM
In reflecting upon my writing of this report, I feel that an apology for some of my negativity is in order. I cannot take back what I said, but I hope that it does not discourage any skaters that I wrote negative comments about. My intent in posting the report was to give people a feel for how the skaters performed and who was the most enjoyable, but I am starting to feel that I went too far with some of my criticisms. My personality is one where I don't generally like to sugarcoat things. I guess that's a good thing at times and at others it is a very poor quality. I feel it's a matter of honesty to point out something that isn't working and what needs to be improved, but I do believe tact should also be used when something is being put out publicly and I did not use enough of that in my report. And I'm beginning to now understand how much words can affect people and it's a terrible feeling when you know you have hurt somebody emotionally.

While it is disappointing to see somebody perform below their potential, I do not believe it is acceptable to chastise them for their bad performance publicly. There's a difference between constructive criticism and berating, and looking back over my thoughts, I definitely crossed the line this time. I can't change what has been said but I can say that I plan to employ much more tact in the future. I will never say that somebody who was awful skated well, but I promise to refrain from such blatant negativity. Probably shouldn't have written the report when I was agitated and procrastinating, but that's no excuse for what I wrote.

Also, just wanted to point out that Liberty Open is a *SUMMER* competition where many of the skaters were not in their best form, justifiably so, so a poor performance here doesn't necessarily mean anything as to how they'll perform later on. So I guess it was pretty stupid to *doom* skaters for the season when I really have not seen what they are capable of.

As for the comment I made on the lower ranked senior ladies and continuing in the sport...
This is my first time having seen many of these ladies and perhaps for some of them, just being able to compete in this competition at all is a triumph. If you have the money and you love to skate, then by all means, go ahead and compete. The thing I wanted to point out is that many of the ladies were *not at all* entertaining to watch. Perhaps they do not wish to skate for the audience but only for themselves, and there is no law stating that they had to entertain us. After all, they paid money to enter this competition and I paid nothing besides the minimal cost of transportation. I know that if it were me, I would not want to present something to the public that they would not at all enjoy, but I suppose that is just a personality difference. I know none of the skaters step on the ice planning to have a disastrous performance, but for the ones who looked like they were just picking up the sport, I believe it would be better to strengthen yourself by practicing more than to just put out a poor-quality, unfinished product that is likely to put you at the bottom of the pack and probably embarrass you. It does seem impractical to me for some of the ladies who just seem to dwell at the very bottom of the ranks for years on end to keep spending all that time and money on doing something that will never really get them anywhere. I mean there's nothing wrong with skating as a hobby, but is it really beneficial for a lady to compete in *SENIORS*-- a term in skating that implies some mastery of the sport, look miserable on the ice, blow attempts at double jumps, and finish last place? Is there *really* any joy in that? I understand that winning isn't everything, and don't believe you should have to be at the top of the pack to keep skating. But you can see when someone loves what they are doing vs. when someone can't wait to get a performance over with, and its *those* people that cause me to wonder, what's the point?

So again, sorry to anyone who was upset about these reports, and I will refrain from writing such nasty things in the future. I guess I was just annoyed by what I was seeing on the ice, but I forgot to see the big picture in that, they don't always skate for me or anyone else in the audience. Though in the end, I think it always helps to have the audience and judges on your side with a charismatic performance. So all I can say is that I hope not to see skaters dumping all their choreography because they are missing jumps or continuing to use programs that don't work. Because lowering your presentation marks to try to up your technical merit usually leaves you right back where you started....and if the audience cannot understand what you are trying to present, they will start snoozing. And skipping up to seniors because you couldn't make it out of the qualifying rounds of regionals as novice or below is *not* a strategy I would recommend! Now that I am entering the working world, I realize that going to work every day is not always easy. I just hope some of the bottom ranked skaters who don't even like to skate don't take advantage of their parents' generosity with their hard-earned money by continuing to skate in a half-hearted manner. Rant over...

seahag
07-29-2002, 08:38 PM
Haribobo--
"You're a good man, Charlie Brown."

Mazurka Girl
07-30-2002, 11:30 AM
I found Senior Ladies a disappointing event overall, right from the very first skater. It is hard to put the programs out there & maintain consistency with the jumps year in & year out especially considering injuries & teen development etc. But some of the actual skating, aside from jumps & spins, was not very good & I can't imagine it would have even passed senior MIF in my area with that level of quality. Everyone has a bad day, & I extend my complete sympathies when they do, but there were other things going on in that event besides a few skaters simply having a bad day.

rack
07-30-2002, 12:43 PM
I can think of several reasons why skaters compete even though realistically they have no chance of winning.

For starters, it's a chance to meet and socialize with other skaters. If I'm a teenager and I love what I'm doing but no one else at my high school is involved in my sport, I'd be delighted to have a chance to meet fellow skaters.

Then there's the chance you'll skate well enough to catch the eye of a top flight coach who's there with her/his skater.

It's an opportunity to skate for judges and learn from their comments.

It could be one of those lighting in a bottle moments. Everyone else skates miserably and your not-so-hot skate is sufficiently better to rate you a top five finish.

Your grandparents live nearby and have always dreamed of seeing you compete.

You have six months to live and what do you have to lose?

Skating in a competition will look great on your college application.

Most people who enter marathons don't expect to win. I doubt most beauty contestants think they'll end up Miss America. Not everyone competes to win (and if they all did, we'd have thousands of suicidal losers).

Mazurka Girl
07-30-2002, 01:40 PM
[quote:d3eca9e157="rack"]It could be one of those lighting in a bottle moments. Everyone else skates miserably and your not-so-hot skate is sufficiently better to rate you a top five finish.[/quote:d3eca9e157]
I wouldn't want to make top five that way. I'd rather do it based on the quality of my own skating & my pursuit of excellence, win or lose, top five or bottom five. I understand there are probably skaters who don't have those same ideals, but it is rather disappointing to those of us who really love the skating aspect of it.

Ellyn
07-30-2002, 02:28 PM
The only problem I have with haribobo's original post is naming names of skaters who "sucked the energy out of the building." Just summarizing them as "the lower-ranked senior ladies" would have been more tactful. And there's always the option of saying nothing at all about the less stellar performances.

Face it, most people who skate are never going to qualify for Nationals at any level. Some of the ladies at all levels are never going to get to a final round at regionals, no matter which level they choose to compete at. By the time they get to seniors, if they've never placed that well before, they probably know that just getting to skate a short program at regionals is going to be the best achievement they can be proud of -- or skating their best at *a* club competition, landing *a* clean triple in competition or skating *a* clean program someday. They have to set their own goals, which might be a little higher than what outsiders might see as reasonable, but unless you know them perdsonally you don't know what their goals are.

With a couple of the younger/smaller junior and senior ladies who are cheating double axels or some triples but whose basic skating skills and presentation seem more average for their age than for their test level, I have to wonder why they aren't sticking in juvenile or intermediate or novice where they would have a chance to win. But it's their call -- if they'd rather get experience skating short programs, longer long programs, having a smaller group of skaters to compete against and thus a better chance to make it past initial rounds if they skate their best, that's their choice.

With the older skaters, if they've already been through a year or two each at the lower levels, they may feel "been there, done that" and want to pass the tests as a measure of achievement rather than looking for wins that aren't going to come to give them validation. If they also want to compete at a level where they aren't competitive, who are we to say they shouldn't? (rack gives a number of reasons why skaters might choose to compete without any expectation of high placements)

Also take into consideration that possibility that skaters who don't appear well trained and enthusiastic aren't necessarily lazy and certainly aren't performing below their own expectations just to bore you. Maybe they have been ill or injured. Maybe they're putting out brand-new programs they're not comfortable with yet. Maybe they have other reasons in their lives for not performing spectacularly. And maybe they don't have the money for endless hours of ice time and top coaching that would be necessary to reach the top ranks, maybe they've also been putting in hours on schooling or part-time jobs or other non-skating endeavors, but they do have enough training time to make it *to* the senior test level and to attempt the double axels and triples that are required in competition -- why should they not have the same right to enter competitions as they did several years ago as intermediates or novices who struggled with double-double combinations? Just because you may not have the talent and/or resources to make it to the top doesn't mean you have no right to enter competitions at whatever level you're qualified for and feel most comfortable at and to set your own goals for what will be rewarding. And of course the skaters will not achieve those goals at every event they enter; not even the most talented skaters with the higher goals do that.

MELMOM
07-30-2002, 03:52 PM
This is my first post and I feel somewhat intimidated by all the expert opinions I have read so far, but I still feel compelled to reply. I recently attended Senior Mens/ Ladies final rounds at both Liberty & Detroit and I must say that what I find most disappointing is not the "lower ranked" skaters that skate to the best of their ability and usually with joy and enthusiasm, but the "higher ranked" skaters that continuously "pop", "double", or just plain "don't try" the harder jumps, i.e. triples & double/triple axels, that they can probably do 9 times out of 10 in practice, and then stomping off the ice before their music ends to have a melt-down on the sidelines. This phenomenon seems to occur mostly in the Ladies events. The men still seem to give it a good old "College Try" most of the time. All the competitors put in as much practice/ work as time/ money will allow. My youngest daughter who is not yet a Senior lady, but will someday soon be, does the best she can on what I can afford to give to her. Her family, friends, coaches, fellow clubmates are all going to still support her efforts, and they are truly efforts, regardless of her skill. I think the most rude thing I have ever seen in the 12 years I have been involved in skating with my two daughters was just recently at the Detroit competition, where when a nationally ranked senior lady who just popped her way through her program got off the ice, 75% of the audience, and it was packed, just got up and noisily left the arena while the next skater was getting on the ice to compete, therefore making it impossible to hear her name or what club she represented. Did she not deserve to have the recognition? Just because she wasn't "higher ranked"? I'm sure she worked just as hard, paid just as much to compete, and her heart was beating just as loudly as everyone elses who steps out on the ice. I hope her reward was great, I don't remember what she did, or who she was, but as the Mother of a skating daughter, I know what sacrifices our family endures, time, money, etc., but there is nothing more rewarding than the look of joy on my daughters face at the end of a "successful" long program, whether you experts find it worthy or not. I frankly don't care!!!

kara
07-30-2002, 03:58 PM
We all agree that people skate for different reasons...and may they keep enjoying themeselves, whatever level they attain. Haribobo seems to understand that now, too, and has offered a lengthy apology for stating his opinions in a hurtful manner. He's not perfect (and certainly not the only one who's ever wondered, "Why is s/he still skating?") and clearly tried to right his wrong, so let's let it go.

MELMOM - Btw, the above isn't directed to you...it's just a general plea to not turn this into a bashing thread.

Jerome
07-30-2002, 04:30 PM
I hesitate to write this but I so totally agree with MELMOM -- understanding Haribobo's point of view completely, too. Over the years, I have read postings on these boards, sometimes responding, sometimes starting topics and sometimes just scratching my head. However, I have noticed a trend toward elitism among board posters that is sometimes troubling. Several years ago, while casting an Ice Show, a judge told me, "No one wants to watch an overweight intermediate level skater!" Well, if clubs and associations had to depend on "audiences" (non-parent, non-relative, non-club member fans), we'd have no shows, no competitions and no revenue. These local competitions are fund raisers and a chance for club members to compete. And, I gotta tell you, I have little time for the person who sits in the stands, complete with clipboard and tape recorder, pontificating about "lower-level" skaters. Perhaps this skater has been working on a double-axel for years and finally it's consistent enough to put in her program. But she falls. What is more important -- that she is persistent and disciplined? Or that she falls. And then there is this incesant infatuation with little, young girls. Ask any competitor and he/she will tell you that it's a lot easier when you're little and young. Where is the admiration for skaters to skate because they love the sport, who see that the victory is in the journey taken, not in a gold medal destination, who see growth in the process rather than just the outcome. I also weary of "audience experts" who tell tall girls that they have no chance in this sport. I actually ache for an 18-year old woman who is over 5'4" to stand on the podium and declare, "This is for the old, tall broads!" Okay, rant almost over -- but I'd also like to say that some reviews are in error. For instance, at a recent competition, a reviewer misidentified several jumps for at least one skater. Is that because the "expert" didn't recognize the jumps -- or is there a hidden prejudice for certain skaters and against certain skaters? It makes one a little less critical of the judges!

For those who can't be bothered watching no-name skaters who don't live up to their expectations, could I just ask that you look for something in their program that was done well -- or just give them credit for sticking with something they love enough to risk having people denegrate and criticize their determination and longevity. God love all the skaters who know they aren't going to get a good Internet review, but can revel in a sense of accomplishment.

Again, I totally appreciate and love the reviews done by board posters such as Haribobo, Impromptu, etc. It is wonderful to have such hardworking fans and willing supporters. I guess the bottom line is, if I can't stand the criticism, I should just stay off the boards!

Mazurka Girl
07-30-2002, 04:45 PM
[quote:087a9e3709="MELMOM"]The men still seem to give it a good old "College Try" most of the time ... but there is nothing more rewarding than the look of joy on my daughters face at the end of a "successful" long program, whether you experts find it worthy or not. I frankly don't care!!![/quote:087a9e3709]
I believe that was one of the points I was attempting to express, giving it the good old "College Try". I did not get that feeling from several at all & I didn't see that many out of a field of 24 at the Liberty event with a look of joy on their face at the end of their program, although a few of them did seem satisfied with their effort.

BTW who is included in the denigrating "you experts"? I personally fit several of the categories noted by Ellyn myself:
-Maybe they have been ill or injured.
-Maybe they're putting out brand-new programs they're not comfortable with yet.
-Maybe they have other reasons in their lives for not performing spectacularly.
-And maybe they don't have the money for endless hours of ice time and top coaching that would be necessary to reach the top ranks,
-Maybe they've also been putting in hours on schooling or part-time jobs or other non-skating endeavors, but they do have enough training time to make it *to* the senior test level

Having said that, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with competing & not going to Nationals or even making the final round, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with saying skaters (myself included) should make a sincere attempt at a quality effort when planning to compete & do it to the best of their ability while considering the objectives of being in a competition. If the main intent is to socialize with other skaters, this can be done effectively as a spectator as well as a competitor. I disagree with putting anything on the ice just so a skater can count another activity on a college application, although I can go along with "You have six months to live and what do you have to lose?". :)

I appreciate the fact that haribobo went back & assessed his original notes to consider improvements but I do agree with him that by senior level, there should be some mastery involved. The jumps may not always be there, but by this level the actual (on ice) skating should be. Andrea Varraux is a good example of a skater who shows wonderful mastery of the actual skating part even when the jumps did not hold up for her that day. It's nothing I wouldn't expect from myself too so I hope we can at least agree to disagree about our philosophy & approach to skating.

sk8rzmom
07-30-2002, 05:15 PM
My post won't be nearly as articulate as some of the others, but I hope I can get my point across clearly, and without stepping on any toes.
Skaters skate for many reasons, many of which have been noted above. However, I think the typical TV spectator/skating fan has no concept of how hard it is to pass that Senior test. They take for granted that a senior lady will have a few triples when the senior test doesn't even require a double axel.
There are very few kids in the country who even have consistent triples; they're the few that you do see on TV, and they're on TV because they are so rare. And sometimes even those kids struggle for months at a time. Anyone who attended Mids in Chicago will attest to that. What a mess!
So for a kid to go out a skate a senior program in a competition as big as Liberty or Detroit may be a dream come true for some of these kids. They get to compete with the likes of Allysa Czisny or Kristen Shaefer, nationally recognized skaters, and are probably oin awe of sharing a locker room or practice ice with them.
A senior test is darn hard to pass! Less than 25% percent of the kids that start out together will stick with it long enough to pass, or even try, a senior test. It takes more than talent, more than money, more than supportive parents and coaches. It takes a desire to put skating first, before socializing, before a boyfriend, before a drivers license.
And if you, by a great stroke of fortune, do pass and want to compete, that !@# $%&* short program requires a double axel! So what do you do? Put together a program and try your hardest, because that's what it takes to get to Detroit or Liberty. And afterward, that skater goes home to her club, that may have little to no high test or summer ice, and can say she competed with some nationally ranked kids, and wow! it is an experience she'll never forget.
It's all about the kids, whatever there goals are. Everyone of them has more guts than I'll ever have, to put themselves on the line in front of judges and spectators, risking falls and wedgies, all for 4 minutes of (we hope) joy. I salute every senior lady!

manleywoman
07-30-2002, 05:44 PM
I'm finding this conversation fascinating for very personal reasons...

I'm 31 years old and a long time Adult Nationals competitor. I'm trying to pass my Novice Free test in a month so I can skate regular-track Regionals with the "kids" this fall. I'm doing strictly for a personal goal of being able to say I did it, since I never got to skate Regionals when I was a kid. And I fully expect to go out there and do my best, enjoy myself thouroughly, and come in dead last! And I don't care about coming in last at all...I just want to give it the "college try". I've already called the USFSA to find out if it was okay if I competed, and they say it's fine by them. More money for them I guess!

I am sure I will encounter critisism from other skater's or parents or audience members who say I have no business being there, am making a fool of myself, am taking attention away from their kids, whatever. I'm sure nobody will clap for me in the stands except for my family. But I'm prepared for that. I don't plan on winning...I consider myself a winner already that I have the skills to pass the Novice Free test at my age!

So If I pass my test and you see me there, I'll have a big grin on my face! And if you think it's cool that I'm giving it a shot, please clap for me, I'll truly appreciate it!

haribobo
07-30-2002, 07:14 PM
I think that's great, manleywoman. Besides, you are not the only 30+ year old eligible-skater. Go show those "kids" that these competitions aren't just for younguns. I'm sure you will get a great hand, even if you finish dead last! There is nothing more enjoyable for me as a skating fan to see someone trying their hardest and end up skating a personal best.

What I do NOT like is seeing someone (who apparently is healthy enough to compete) skate off the ice before their music is even over because they don't like it that they are not landing their jumps. That is poor sportmanship and *that* is what really was most upsetting to me while watching the senior ladies freeskate. Kids wasting their own time and their parents' money. If I was a parent I'd be very upset if my kid did that.

adrianchew
07-30-2002, 08:22 PM
[quote:3a204b4797="haribobo"]What I do NOT like is seeing someone (who apparently is healthy enough to compete) skate off the ice before their music is even over because they don't like it that they are not landing their jumps.[/quote:3a204b4797]

Was this the girl who went to talk to her coach, then got whistled at to go up to the judges? I don't remember her name, but she forgot her program totally (was already ad-libbing it by the time she went over to her coach).

Artistic Skaters
07-30-2002, 08:57 PM
:lol: manleywoman, I too saw it & you would have been competitive at this event. Don't stop at novice, move up to senior! Good for you for having the right attitude about it either way. I'll be there clapping for you if you compete. I could care less if people think a skater is too tall, too short, too old, overweight or whatever as long as the skater has the right attitude about what they're doing. I don't agree with MELMOM's view that "All the competitors put in as much practice/ work as time/ money will allow." Not quite all. I spend a lot of time at the rink & have seen several competitive skaters who do not regularly practice, waste a lot of time & money, & yet have a serious entitlement attitude about what they expect from skating. There's usually a couple to be found at the rink at any given time. Some of them get caught up in the labels & the lifestyle, not the actual skating. (Remember the dance student in FAME who didn't really want to dance but wanted to be a "dance student"?) Everybody getting to do it just because they want to do it (no matter what else) is like the birthday party where everyone gets a party favor, or the self esteem stickers that are given out to 5 yr olds. Yes, anyone who meets the minimum eligibility requirements can sign up, but good intentions are important too. Competitions are skating events, which means the main focus is supposed to be SKATING & the other issues, even though they may be important, are secondary. I enjoy skaters who concentrate on the skating as their primary goal & who do it with exuberance & concern for their skills & the sport. As long as that's happening I don't care if they come in first or last place.

haribobo
07-30-2002, 09:49 PM
Adrian-- that is not the girl I was referring to. I think *that* girl, the first competitor of the event, was a last minute replacement for others who withdrew, so it was not too surprising that she wasn't ready.

The girl I am talking about stopped I think after her last counting element and didn't bother to finish off the program, just skated to the ice door and was stepping off the ice as her music was ending. It looked like she just sorta was saying 'forget this' and ditched. I was not impressed. If she stopped skating because she was injured, now that's a different story entirely. I am not 100% sure, but this did not appear to be the case.

adrianchew
07-30-2002, 10:26 PM
This is what happens when I don't take notes. I do remember skaters skating after the music had ended but not leaving the ice beforehand. Hmm.

I can see what that could be a waste - but consider the number of "no shows" at these club competitions and withdrawals... everyone pays something to sign up and must have made some sort of plans... not everyone shows. Wouldn't worry too much about it - but I do understand what you mean about "such a waste".

rack
07-31-2002, 06:55 AM
This thread has become so interesting. I've never been to a club competition and between the summations/reviews and now the comments about them, I have a much better grasp of what they must be like.

As far as ditching a disastrous program goes, from my own personal experiences of making a fool of myself in public, or disappointing myself by failing in front of an audience, all I wanted to do was get the hell out of there and burst into hysterical tears.

We talk a lot about skaters who have problems with their nerves, and frankly I don't have much sympathy for them. But if a top ranked international skater can seemingly fall apart, then imagine how a teenager without years of being in the spotlight must feel when seemingly every element of her program reaches out to attack her.

They call it kiss and cry for a reason. But sometimes the cry part needs to be done in private.

Yazmeen
07-31-2002, 08:46 AM
manleywoman: That sound you hear is me clapping for you! Good Luck!

As an adult skater who has attended this competition in the past when it was held at Wissahickon, all I can say is that I enjoy watching every skater, because I LEARN from watching them--even the ones who struggle. I think it is absoulutely brave and wonderful for a lot of these young ladies to just go out there and give it their all, even when they know that they simply aren't going to be the next Olympic Champion. They may get valuable lessons from the competition that we can't even imagine.

I compete (ISI) because I enjoy doing it and working on a competition program is one of the best ways to sharpen up my skills and just get my skating flowing. I'm sure there are many people who have looked at me at competitions and thought "What is she DOING out there???"--but I do it for my own satisfaction, for my ISI team (these competitions award team points) and because my coach and I believe in what I'm doing. I'll be taking my first shot at USFSA testing this coming season, and I hope to compete USFSA. And even if I mess up royally and come in dead last, it will still be worth it, because I will learn from the experience. This is a sport, as we so often remind idiot sportswriters who put down skating. The skaters are not required to entertain us--just to try and give their best shot at the sport they love, and whether they come in first, last or in between, its still valuable in the end.

Rant over!!! :wink:

Beth

adrianchew
07-31-2002, 09:47 AM
I've got to agree with haribobo - the issue at hand is less so related to adult skaters, and actual performance, but more so related to effort and input.

Given the expenses involved when parents have children skating - one thing I've constantly heard that I consider a good perspective - is to keep your child in the sport because they want to do it. And with that comes a certain level of responsibility and input - if they want to skate only on some days, aren't willing to put in time to do off-ice exercises, etc - it then makes the value of the activity less justifiable.

Nerves is a seperate issue. But it does take some years in the sport before a kid is skating in seniors - so they do have experience... and what haribobo finds bad is leaving the ice (giving up) before the program is completed. We can't know the dynamics since we are not personally involved - but if it was my child, I'd be disappointed - not for the bad performance, but for giving up.

Effort is the key factor here, IMO.

Ellyn
07-31-2002, 09:51 AM
[quote:e6f9ac03e4="rack"]This thread has become so interesting. I've never been to a club competition and between the summations/reviews and now the comments about them, I have a much better grasp of what they must be like.[/quote:e6f9ac03e4]

Hey, I've been to smaller club competitions with only 2 or 3 senior ladies and no clean triples. For anyone even to attempt a triple or even a double axel in novice, junior, or senior was a big deal (and not necessarily a guarantee of higher marks if the rest of the skating was not the highest quality). For a Nationals ladies competitor to show up and two-foot a triple lutz in a rink where perhaps no triple lutz had ever been landed before (except by the one junior man who had to give an exhibition because there was no one for him to compete against . . . and only in warmup in his case) was a really big deal.

In comparison, the big club competitions like Liberty where there are a lot of past sectional and even national competitors entered may be a "preview of regionals" for the top competitors. But a skater who's the only senior at her home club and always top three at her home club's competition of two or three skaters above novice level might sometimes want to travel to a big competition to skate with the "big kids," so to speak, especially if it happens to be closer to home than her regionals this year. A skater whose local club is one of the big training centers and who has made it to seniors but because of financial limitations, body type limitations, and/or school priorities will never be a top competitor certainly has just as much right to enter her local competition, even if it happens to be big and important, as the skater from the small-town club.

[quote:e6f9ac03e4]They call it kiss and cry for a reason. But sometimes the cry part needs to be done in private.[/quote:e6f9ac03e4]

There isn't a designated kiss-and cry area at these local rinks, and in most cases no marks are read aloud (and only ordinals are posted afterward). Does "private" include just outside the boards? in the locker room or rest room (but what if you want to comfort from a parent or coach of the opposite sex)? In the lobby or parking lot? There isn't anywhere completely private.

Mazurka Girl
07-31-2002, 10:53 AM
[quote:b1bbeb0d0b="adrianchew"]I've got to agree with haribobo - the issue at hand is less so related to adult skaters, and actual performance, but more so related to effort and input.

Given the expenses involved when parents have children skating - one thing I've constantly heard that I consider a good perspective - is to keep your child in the sport because they want to do it. And with that comes a certain level of responsibility and input - if they want to skate only on some days, aren't willing to put in time to do off-ice exercises, etc - it then makes the value of the activity less justifiable.

Nerves is a seperate issue. But it does take some years in the sport before a kid is skating in seniors - so they do have experience... and what haribobo finds bad is leaving the ice (giving up) before the program is completed. We can't know the dynamics since we are not personally involved - but if it was my child, I'd be disappointed - not for the bad performance, but for giving up.

Effort is the key factor here, IMO.[/quote:b1bbeb0d0b]
ITA. It's the bad attitudes/efforts that makes it disappointing. Some of the other things being discussed, like the best skater at a little club being able to compete with the sectional/national skaters are not really the problem to me. A skater can be from a little club & may not have the big jumps, but there are other aspects within their control, like the quality of their skating. (A lot of skaters still try to race through the MIF as fast as they can without learning the skating part or think it's acceptable to cheat jumps so they can claim they have at least one triple) Then when they throw the quality away, & in addition there are problems with skaters who demonstrate bad sportsmanship, give up, cry or swear while they're skating because they're missing jumps, look like they're going to walk off the ice without notifying officials they're withdrawing until strongly encouraged by the coach & a referee blows the whistle... How can you not be disappointed if you care about the [b:b1bbeb0d0b]sport[/b:b1bbeb0d0b] of skating when there are not always the greatest attitudes?... The skater from the little no name club could have brought her arsenal of doubles & some nice spirited skating last week & cleaned up in that group, & I would have been happy to watch it compared to some of the diva drama that unfolds sometimes at competitions.

manleywoman
07-31-2002, 12:01 PM
I personally don't mind seeing Seniors with just doubles at a competition, as long as they have a great attitude and a joy to skate, as others have mentioned.

Let's face it: If all the triples were required for passing the Senior Free test and being able to compete at any local competition at the Senior level, only about 15 girls in the entire Nation would pass the test and compete!

(edited to add : thanks to all who will cheer for me at Regionals...providing I can pass the test in a month!)

Ellyn
07-31-2002, 12:37 PM
Well, bad behavior can occur at all levels. It might be a pattern with a particular skater, and if so the parents, coach, etc., might have to step in and demand changes (or maybe the parents or coach are part of the problem). But from witnessing one incident at one competition without knowing the people involved, we can't even make a real determination of how bad the behavior really was or whether it was justified.

My inclination is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt in the absence of further evidence, and not to make negative value judgments about people I don't know on the basis of one incident observed at a distance (or cited, and possibly distorted, in the media in the case of more well-known figures).

If I do know enough about a person to make value judgments, I still wouldn't post negative ones on the Internet, unless it were a case of, e.g., someone asking for recommendations about sending a skater to a coach I knew to be abusive (not that I know any such coaches personally, but if I did...).

If we're just talking about teenagers not skating their best and acting disgusted with themselves, or acting bratty in ways that kids often do, I don't see any point in strangers taking them to task for it in public, by name.

Making general observations about patterns of evident bad behavior by one or more skaters seems reasonable, but if they're not public figures acting badly at a public event I still wouldn't post their names.

NiceIce
07-31-2002, 05:31 PM
I agree with Jerome about the nonskating - noncompetitive "experts" taking on a bit of an attitude online!
Most skaters will never make it to sectionals, much less Nationals.
Liberty and Detroit are just for fun, even for the serious skaters.
If they didnt do well, they know it didnt really matter, and if they did well then there isnt that much of an ego boost cuz it was just a local non qualifying competition.
Everybody close by the area will skate, talent or no talent.

Artistic Skaters
07-31-2002, 07:59 PM
I believe haribobo has nicely attempted to redeem his earlier remarks & good for him to reevaluate his original assessment. Like the earlier poster suggested, why not let it go since he has now developed a new & improved plan?

adrianchew
07-31-2002, 08:09 PM
I had missed reading through the whole topic so I'm replying now to Jerome's post...

[quote:ea53b61d6e="Jerome"]However, I have noticed a trend toward elitism among board posters that is sometimes troubling.[/quote:ea53b61d6e]

Being a person myself that can be very "elitist" in attitude, I have to admit having two different yardsticks... the one which I tend to apply to top name competitors (Nationals/Worlds), and the other when I'm just watching lower level skaters.

Its sometimes better to watch a program of only doubles, than skaters who are starting to attempt triples and falling more in the programs. I doubt if I could bring myself to watch compulsories or figures - but what I did see at Liberty (intermediates on up) is definitely worthwhile making an effort to go see.

I would encourage folks who haven't been to anything like this to sample it someday. IMO - it beats going to watch most ice shows, and admission is often free!

[quote:ea53b61d6e]I actually ache for an 18-year old woman who is over 5'4" to stand on the podium and declare, "This is for the old, tall broads!"[/quote:ea53b61d6e]

Age/height unfortunately becomes a factor if there are "elite" aspirations. If the goal is to do well at a club competition, that's definitely possible, but taller/older ladies just haven't shown up much on the World/Olympic podiums. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone over 5'7" in ladies at national/international competitions.

Part of the young girls infatuation is that a few might break through and develop into the next future World/Olympic champion - its understandable there's some attention paid at times to this batch in particular.

[quote:ea53b61d6e]Okay, rant almost over -- but I'd also like to say that some reviews are in error. For instance, at a recent competition, a reviewer misidentified several jumps for at least one skater. Is that because the "expert" didn't recognize the jumps -- or is there a hidden prejudice for certain skaters and against certain skaters? It makes one a little less critical of the judges![/quote:ea53b61d6e]

I'll be the first to admit that if I had taken notes and posted them - you'd find some errors in them. There are enough folks trying to learn the sport enough to take notes, and figure out the elements, etc... knowledge is a good thing, but it doesn't come overnight. Part of learning is making mistakes and learning from them.

[quote:ea53b61d6e]For those who can't be bothered watching no-name skaters who don't live up to their expectations, could I just ask that you look for something in their program that was done well -- or just give them credit for sticking with something they love enough to risk having people denegrate and criticize their determination and longevity. God love all the skaters who know they aren't going to get a good Internet review, but can revel in a sense of accomplishment.[/quote:ea53b61d6e]

Not a bad idea at all!

[quote:ea53b61d6e]Again, I totally appreciate and love the reviews done by board posters such as Haribobo, Impromptu, etc. It is wonderful to have such hardworking fans and willing supporters. I guess the bottom line is, if I can't stand the criticism, I should just stay off the boards![/quote:ea53b61d6e]

The biggest minefield is when you're at a club competition - and end up sharing those thoughts to someone who might be a parent of one of the skaters! Or they come here, or elsewhere on the Internet, and read a bad review. It may not always go over too well.

I've got a short rant of my own...

I recently got grilled elsewhere for saying that missing Emily Hughes skate (I think she didn't skate for events she was entered in) was no big deal. Now I really have nothing against Emily Hughes - but it seems people want to know just cause she's the younger sister of Sarah Hughes. There are a lot of other skaters in juniors - and enough that are significantly better than Emily. What makes it worse - someone even suggested it'd be nice if they did a "fluff" piece of the sisters on TV for next US Nats (enough fluff already - how about some skating! - and there's no guarantee Emily will even qualify herself). :roll:

My own little bit of "anti-elitism" if you want to call it that.

Artistic Skaters
07-31-2002, 08:41 PM
[quote:b7d8974490="adrianchew"]I'll be the first to admit that if I had taken notes and posted them - you'd find some errors in them. There are enough folks trying to learn the sport enough to take notes, and figure out the elements, etc... knowledge is a good thing, but it doesn't come overnight. Part of learning is making mistakes and learning from them.[/quote:b7d8974490]
Many parents often have a hard time in this area. I'm frequently amazed by what some of them will count as an authentic jump, i.e. double axel or triple.

I really hope elitism is not being confused for quality here. There is a big difference. Striving for the highest quality does not necessarily make one an elitist. There are any number of skaters I know who only had a brush with elite level competitive skating, or never made it to that level at all. Yet I would consider many of them better skaters than some who are at the elite level because of the quality of what they can do.

Sylvia
07-31-2002, 08:51 PM
[quote:24d6fc65f2="adrianchew"]
I recently got grilled elsewhere for saying that missing Emily Hughes skate (I think she didn't skate for events she was entered in) was no big deal. Now I really have nothing against Emily Hughes - but it seems people want to know just cause she's the younger sister of Sarah Hughes. There are a lot of other skaters in juniors - and enough that are significantly better than Emily. What makes it worse - someone even suggested it'd be nice if they did a "fluff" piece of the sisters on TV for next US Nats (enough fluff already - how about some skating! - and there's no guarantee Emily will even qualify herself). :roll:[/quote:24d6fc65f2]

Actually, Emily Hughes skated in a qualifying SP and FS group at Liberty, placing (a close) 5th both times, and therefore did not qualify for either final. The fact that Emily qualified last season for Nationals at the junior level as an 12-almost-13 year old underdog is testament to her talent and determination... and speaks volumes about just how deep and talented the junior ladies' field at Liberty was this year! I'd like to think that many fans (like me, for example) can appreciate and/or are interested to see Emily's fine qualities as a competitive skater, and not just because she happens to be "Sarah's younger sister." However, I do think Emily will be challenged to qualify again for Nationals in 2003 because the junior field in the East appears even deeper than last season! We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

adrianchew
07-31-2002, 08:58 PM
[quote:b3a2d3d231="Sylvia"]I'd like to think that many fans (like me, for example) can appreciate and/or are interested to see Emily's fine qualities as a competitive skater, and not just because she happens to be "Sarah's younger sister." However, I do think Emily will be challenged to qualify again for Nationals in 2003 because the junior field in the East appears even deeper than last season! We'll just have to wait and see what happens.[/quote:b3a2d3d231]

Thanks Sylvia for the clarification - you are a rarity though! ;)

Just wishing myself that more folks were interested in the lower level skaters besides a couple of "names" they associate from having heard of the older sister/younger sister relationship.