ISU passes new scoring system

[SkateFan123]

No suprise.....

USFSA President Chuck Foster said he voted for it.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/06/09/sports0659EDT0212.DTL

[A.H.Black]

Dont like that part where 9 out of 12 judges marks will count. At least not that way it has been done in the past year or two. Don't like the anonymous part at all.

Do like the part about the high and low being dropped. I think it should be the top 2 and the bottom 2 - like diving. Then the system would let a judge be human and still allow the right skater to win.

[SkateFan123]

Dont like that part where 9 out of 12 judges marks will count. At least not that way it has been done in the past year or two. Don't like the anonymous part at all.

Do like the part about the high and low being dropped. I think it should be the top 2 and the bottom 2 - like diving. Then the system would let a judge be human and still allow the right skater to win.
Conceptually, CoP is a good idea. I have no problem with that. I have a big problem with no accountability for judges.

[danibellerika]

I am very happy about this. :D

[SkateFan123]

They ARE accountable to the ISU...just not to the public.I take it you have total faith that the ISU members will not cheat or that it will expose cheaters?

[loveskating]

I take it you have total faith that the ISU members will not cheat or that it will expose cheaters?

I don't have full faith in ANY institution...but I also do not like witch hunts and deamonizations via a powerful media, either...I don't like public, vigilante trials without rules of evidence and procedure to protect the innocent.

I just hope the ISU establishes a credible due process WITHIN for ALL its members for charges of any wrongdoing, and that people are NOT allowed to go to the press before such due process has been implemented. That is what I would ask for myself, if accused, so that is what I advocate.

[singerskates]

No suprise.....

USFSA President Chuck Foster said he voted for it.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/06/09/sports0659EDT0212.DTL


Alright then!!!

This means for sure that in Canada Skate Canada will use CoP for all competitions including Adult events. I can't wait!!!!! This is great for us skaters!!!!!!!!

[Schmeck]

Since it stated that CoP would only be used at International events, I really don't see how it would guarantee use at much more low key events (like local club comps, etc) Do they have a financial plan in place to supply the computers/programming/training needed for this complicated new scoring system? If not, who's going to have the $$$ to pay for it?

[jcspkbfan]

Since it stated that CoP would only be used at International events, I really don't see how it would guarantee use at much more low key events (like local club comps, etc)

So does this mean each country's Nationals (which I don't think are santioned by the ISU and, for the most part, aren't exactly low-key events) will still use the old 6.0 system next season? And would each country's national skating governing body have to approve COP individually before it could be used at their respective Nationals? Either way, it would probably be very confusing for skaters to return to the old system at Nationals while adjusting to COP in international events.

BTW, my first thought after reading this news was relief that we won't have to see that horrible interim scoring system (which I thought was worse than COP or the pre-SLC 6.0 system) at Worlds--or anyplace else--ever again! :D

[Schmeck]

I would hope that Nationals would use CoP, but I doubt the interclub/local comps could afford it.

[what?meworry?]

I would hope that Nationals would use CoP, but I doubt the interclub/local comps could afford it.

i agree with those who see this as an major improvement. specific elements are evaluated, and the points that are given relative to the skill level (spelled out) are available to the athletes and their coaches.

all the investment of funding of athletes, all the efforts of usfsa, are geared toward the winning of international medals.

therefore, it is absurd to think that we would not embrace this new international system.

however, usfsa is ( at the moment) caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place in that the broadcast rights will produce less revenue in the future. there has been little to excite the broad-based public lately. they apparently need great drama to draw them into the modern skating arena. ratings (ie, MONEY) just aren't there!

so usfsa will be hard pressed to produce the funding needed to sinulate the new international system.

tough. just like usfsa approaches competition among skaters and teams, i say you, usfsa, deal with it! you, the collective authorities of our fs community have an obligation to the very skaters you tell to "deal" with the rankings in each discipline you hand out.

usfsa expects competitors to train and skate their "hearts out" (to use an antiquated phrase) and accept their relative placements. ok. you too, usfsa. you now need to provide the information and support needed to "gear up" your teams for the new international competition standards by educating the judges and supporting the sectional/national arenas in this effort.

the old ussr trained their coaches and choreographers in the manner that our students attend "college." now usfsa embraces all those highly trained coaches. that's good. but understand that now, with this new isu evaluation system, we, the usfsa, need to give the closest possible support/training of our coaches/skaters, just as the ussr did, if you hope to achieve success.

now, in light of the isu new system, usfsa must support and train their coaches and judges to train and evaluate out skaters for maximum success. this should be a financial priority.

we also need some sort of "stuff" to excite the general public to increase ratings which equal MONEY for usfsa. not the same old same old.

study the current trends.

additonally, usfsa, i believe, has the obligation to our competitors to train and support the judges and officials who are the front line in guiding our coaches and competitors in dealing with the "new judging system" as in adapt or "die" internationally.

[SkateFan123]

i agree with those who see this as an major improvement. specific elements are evaluated, and the points that are given relative to the skill level (spelled out) are available to the athletes and their coaches.

(edited out some comments of the orginal post to conserve space)

additonally, usfsa, i believe, has the obligation to our competitors to train and support the judges and officials who are the front line in guiding our coaches and competitors in dealing with the "new judging system" as in adapt or "die" internationally.
Good post.

The "adapt or die" quote is true. Any skater not embracing the new system will not have a chance of realizing their dreams internationally. However, one must note that most skaters never reach the international level.

While CoP has many good qualities that will reward what is skated at that particular event for the technical marks, there are still issues that are unanswered.

The second mark is still very much able to manipulate a score. A simple typo on the part of a few judges by scoring some skaters high and some low will manipulate events and since judges won't get caught by the public, it will be easier to maniuplate a few of them.

What provisions are there for when the "caller", who is appointed by and reports only to the ISU President, makes a mistake in calling a move as was done several times last year? None, zero, zilch. So if the hand picked "caller" is told to miscall a few things, the results will be affected, you'll never prove it was intentional, and it the results will never be changed.

With the judges results being so hidden, you'll never know if cheating occurred. Only the ISU will know and do you really think they'll rat out the cheaters and cause another scandel? If you do, let me talk to you about some swamp land I have for sale!

I'd fully and completely support CoP if the "caller" was eliminated and judging open. Without that, I'm not buying it. Which means I'm not spending my money to support this so called "sport". I'll no longer make investments in the "sport" and allow my funding to be sidelined to support the expenses of this new system. I'm sure the $25,000-$30,000 a year that I contribute to figure skating will be welcomed by another sport with open arms. This time I'll select a sport that doesn't rely on a system of cheating judges to judge those who work so hard for so long to real elite levels in their sport.

If figure skating ever becomes a real sport again, I'll reconsider. Until then, I'll just sit back and watch the skating performances for what they are.

[Lise]

I feel a need to respond.

No matter how you look at it, figure skating is always going to be a subjective sport. I like the COP because it rewards skaters that have the complete package; the modifications they've made throwing the high and low mark is huge. It allows for a more accurate picture of where a skater measures up against the competitors and the right people win.

For those who complain about the cheating; this system actually makes it difficult to cheat-on one whose marks are being used. Therefore, there is a lot more accountability than there was before. It's far from being perfect, but it is a huge improvement.

Judging skating is a difficult thing and it takes a lot of dedication to become a judge; judges are not paid for their work nor their time. I do wish that they were paid by the ISU and be representing the ISU instead of their own federations; but, so far, I like the changes that are being made. The COP has also made it easier for a person to become a judge-in the 6.0 it ised to take 10-15 years to become a full fledge international judge; now it takes 5.

Anyways, I'm as dedicated to the sport as I ever was; if some of you choose not to support the sport, I respect the decision, but don't criticize the ones that still love the sport and are willing to support it.

Lise

[tangos]

I am pleased the new system was approved. However, I still have concerns over the scoring of the second half of the mark, and the anonymity of the judges. If nothing else, identifying the judges allowed for more audience involvement.

[singerskates]

Since it stated that CoP would only be used at International events, I really don't see how it would guarantee use at much more low key events (like local club comps, etc) Do they have a financial plan in place to supply the computers/programming/training needed for this complicated new scoring system? If not, who's going to have the $$$ to pay for it?


Sorry to inform you but I competed at the Skate Canada Adult Chanpionships in Burnaby, BC this past March and attended a SC skating clinic where the SC officials talked about judging starting this fall with the competitive events using the CoP system and then during the fall of 2006 SC said that they were going to use the CoP for all events in Canada. We adult skaters can't wait!

Brigitte

[singerskates]

Good post.

The second mark is still very much able to manipulate a score. A simple typo on the part of a few judges by scoring some skaters high and some low will manipulate events and since judges won't get caught by the public, it will be easier to maniuplate a few of them.


Actually the second mark is made up of many things and is accountable too. Program Components - Five skill sets define the categories of assessment under the old “Presentation Mark”:

Skating Skills
Transitions
Performance
Choreography
Interpretation

Each of the above is graded in levels 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2, -3.
Walk Through of a Program Using the COP System

Skater/Team performs program
During the performance, on each element, a Technical Specialist identifies the element and assigns it a level of difficulty (applicable to non-jump elements). This information is recorded either electronically or on paper.
Also during the performance, each judge assigns a Grade of Execution to each technical element performed, by recording it on a special form as the program progresses. Grade of Execution Reductions are calculated as follows:

Base GOE determined (eg. very good without fall) = +2
Error Reduction (eg. if skater falls) = - 3
Final GOE = - 1
(Works exactly the same as the current deductions in short programs)

During the performance, if a skater does something illegal (e. g. an extra element), this is also recorded.
At the end of the performance, the judges each assign a mark out of 10 (using 0.25 increments) to each of the five program components
All of this information is loaded into a computer (either electronically or manually) which calculates the value of the program score based on the rules and applying any necessary factors
The final program score is determined as follows:
Base GOE determined (eg. very good without fall) = +2
Error Reduction (eg. if skater falls) = - 3
Final GOE = - 1
(Works exactly the same as the current deductions in short programs)

During the performance, if a skater does something illegal (e. g. an extra element), this is also recorded.
At the end of the performance, the judges each assign a mark out of 10 (using 0.25 increments) to each of the five program components
All of this information is loaded into a computer (either electronically or manually) which calculates the value of the program score based on the rules and applying any necessary factors
The final program score is determined as follows:
Calculation Method by Element for Program

Base Value of an element plus value of level of difficulty assigned by Technical Specialist;
+ Trimmed mean of all grades of execution applied by the judges (eg. for 7 judge panel, eliminate the highest and lowest GOEs and average the remaining to obtain the final GOE for each technical element);
+ Trimmed mean of each program component score (eg. for 7 judge panel, eliminate the highest and lowest program component score and average the rest to obtain the final program component score for each of Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation) including appropriate factors if any;
= Total Program Score

Calculation Method for Competition

Short Program Total Score
+ Free Program Total Score
= Final Combined Score (highest score wins)

[dgel]

Sorry to inform you but I competed at the Skate Canada Adult Chanpionships in Burnaby, BC this past March and attended a SC skating clinic where the SC officials talked about judging starting this fall with the competitive events using the CoP system and then during the fall of 2006 SC said that they were going to use the CoP for all events in Canada. We adult skaters can't wait!

Brigitte

I'm fairly sure that the system will be introduced gradually in Canada to allow time for training for judges and accountants. I know for sure that it will be used in Eastern/western challenge, Jr Nats and nationals, and it is optional for Sectionals. I don't think you'll see it at lower levels this year. Actually in terms of accountants, this system is easier- much much simpler than OBO. In this case the skater with the most points wins....

[peggerds]

At the Canadian Annual General meeting last week in Calgary it was announced that if the system was passed, it would be used at the Challenge level and above in Canada for the next skating season.

It will not be used at any Sectional competition until the following skating season.

[nja]

It is my understanding that the new COP scoring system is being tested at both the Broadmoor Open and the DuPage Open competitions. Only the Senior and Junior level events would use the COP. I haven't heard of any other competitions that will be using it yet.

[SkateFan123]

Actually the second mark is made up of many things and is accountable too. Program Components - Five skill sets define the categories of assessment under the old “Presentation Mark”:

Skating Skills
Transitions
Performance
Choreography
Interpretation

Each of the above is graded in levels 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2, -3.
Walk Through of a Program Using the COP System

Skater/Team performs program
During the performance, on each element, a Technical Specialist identifies the element and assigns it a level of difficulty (applicable to non-jump elements). This information is recorded either electronically or on paper.
Also during the performance, each judge assigns a Grade of Execution to each technical element performed, by recording it on a special form as the program progresses. Grade of Execution Reductions are calculated as follows:

Base GOE determined (eg. very good without fall) = +2
Error Reduction (eg. if skater falls) = - 3
Final GOE = - 1
(Works exactly the same as the current deductions in short programs)

During the performance, if a skater does something illegal (e. g. an extra element), this is also recorded.
At the end of the performance, the judges each assign a mark out of 10 (using 0.25 increments) to each of the five program components
All of this information is loaded into a computer (either electronically or manually) which calculates the value of the program score based on the rules and applying any necessary factors
The final program score is determined as follows:
Base GOE determined (eg. very good without fall) = +2
Error Reduction (eg. if skater falls) = - 3
Final GOE = - 1
(Works exactly the same as the current deductions in short programs)

During the performance, if a skater does something illegal (e. g. an extra element), this is also recorded.
At the end of the performance, the judges each assign a mark out of 10 (using 0.25 increments) to each of the five program components
All of this information is loaded into a computer (either electronically or manually) which calculates the value of the program score based on the rules and applying any necessary factors
The final program score is determined as follows:
Calculation Method by Element for Program

Base Value of an element plus value of level of difficulty assigned by Technical Specialist;
+ Trimmed mean of all grades of execution applied by the judges (eg. for 7 judge panel, eliminate the highest and lowest GOEs and average the remaining to obtain the final GOE for each technical element);
+ Trimmed mean of each program component score (eg. for 7 judge panel, eliminate the highest and lowest program component score and average the rest to obtain the final program component score for each of Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Choreography, and Interpretation) including appropriate factors if any;
= Total Program Score

Calculation Method for Competition

Short Program Total Score
+ Free Program Total Score
= Final Combined Score (highest score wins)
I totally understand how it works. I also saw several instances last year that were errors. For example. In one event, a judge entered presentation scores showing 4 of the 5 in the 8's except for 1 score which was entered as 0.25. An obviously typo but an unfixable typo. I saw where a "caller" said a spin was a Level 4. There is no Level 4, therefor, zeros recorded for the spin. These are both errors that are uncorrectable.

Unlike at Worlds when the ref told the judges to deduct .1 from all of Michele's score for the music error. (Although she deserved the deduction, I don't recall judges being told to take that before but that's another discussion.)

Your response did not address callers who are hand picked by the ISU President who only report to the ISU President and judging collusion. Even if the collusion is a perception, remember that perception is reality. So until the caller concept and the secrecy is removed from figure skating, I really can't continue to call it a sport.

[nja]

It is my understanding that the new COP scoring system is being tested at both the Broadmoor Open and the DuPage Open competitions. Only the Senior and Junior level events would use the COP. I haven't heard of any other competitions that will be using it yet.

Edited to add that it looks like Skate Detroit will also be using the COP (Sr and Jr only, I assume), per the Chuck Foster article on the USFSA website today.

[icedancer2]

Re: Anonymity and CoP in general

It's very interesting to me that Chuck Foster says in the USFSA article that the US will not have anonymous judging and that there is no reason to have that here.

I am using a quote from another forum where dbny is speaking with Charlie Cyr (who I believe is a National and perhaps an International judge and gives judges seminars around the country) at the recent PSA conference about the anonimity issue:


Charlie Cyr gave a presentation on the CoP, and I was able to ask him afterwards about the annonymity issue. He said that it was primarily for the European judges, and especially for the old Soviet Bloc judges, who feared retribution from their governments. He added that in the judges' room after an event, with the CoP and annonymity, there were judges who spoke up who had never contributed before.

This makes perfect sense to me. If I feared retribution from my federation, or was getting death threats in the middle of the night during the Olympics, I would want to be anonymous too!!

As I go through the "learning how to be a judge" process, people ask me if I have aspirations towards becoming a National or even an International judge and I would have to say at this point that a) it takes too long to get that far [I should have started this process at 25 instead of at 50!] and b) I would hate to live under the scrutiny of the world!! If anonymity made me more comfortable giving the marks I am giving based on what I am seeing on the ice, then I'm all for anonymity!!

icedancer, who generally likes to live under a rock most of the time anyways... 8-)

[SkateFan123]

Re: Anonymity and CoP in general

It's very interesting to me that Chuck Foster says in the USFSA article that the US will not have anonymous judging and that there is no reason to have that here.

I am using a quote from another forum where dbny is speaking with Charlie Cyr (who I believe is a National and perhaps an International judge and gives judges seminars around the country) at the recent PSA conference about the anonimity issue:



This makes perfect sense to me. If I feared retribution from my federation, or was getting death threats in the middle of the night during the Olympics, I would want to be anonymous too!!

As I go through the "learning how to be a judge" process, people ask me if I have aspirations towards becoming a National or even an International judge and I would have to say at this point that a) it takes too long to get that far [I should have started this process at 25 instead of at 50!] and b) I would hate to live under the scrutiny of the world!! If anonymity made me more comfortable giving the marks I am giving based on what I am seeing on the ice, then I'm all for anonymity!!

icedancer, who generally likes to live under a rock most of the time anyways... 8-)All jobs, volunteer or paid live under the scrutiny of those around them. Skaters live with lots of scrutiny from judges, federations, peers, and the public.

But I do have a few questions for you.

All sports have judges and referees that are accountable to the athletes, federations, reports, and the pubic. They all take booing in stride. What if umpires or football refs refused to make their decisions pubic. How do you think it would affect their sport?

And what do you think of the caller concept. Particularly a caller that is hand picked by the ISU President and is accountable only the ISU President?

skatefan, who is seeking to understand....

[icyboid]

I totally understand how it works. I also saw several instances last year that were errors. For example. In one event, a judge entered presentation scores showing 4 of the 5 in the 8's except for 1 score which was entered as 0.25. An obviously typo but an unfixable typo. I saw where a "caller" said a spin was a Level 4. There is no Level 4, therefor, zeros recorded for the spin. These are both errors that are uncorrectable.

Unlike at Worlds when the ref told the judges to deduct .1 from all of Michele's score for the music error. (Although she deserved the deduction, I don't recall judges being told to take that before but that's another discussion.)

Your response did not address callers who are hand picked by the ISU President who only report to the ISU President and judging collusion. Even if the collusion is a perception, remember that perception is reality. So until the caller concept and the secrecy is removed from figure skating, I really can't continue to call it a sport.

I second Skatefan's sentiments. I would have rather seen two or three callers than increasing the amount of judges. A caller can easily screw or favor a skater on the high-value elements.
One thing we've seen is that some callers count severely cheated triples as doubles. Let's take the often cheated 3Lo as an example: the caller could identify it as a 2loop (1.5) or a 3loop (5.3) depending on how they favored the skater, so a judge could rob a skater of 3.8 points if they wanted.

And to further support Skatefan's comments, many judges didn't seem to understand that there was a .50 deduction for each major error (e.g. falling) from the Performance element of the Program Composition score.
Unlike Kwan's .1 time deduction that was announced to all judges, the caller nor referree did not announce the amount of .50 deductions to the judges, so it was totally reliant on the judges as to whether they counted, remembered, or even knew about the deduction.

Furthermore, there is a huge amount of vagueness in the guidelines for PC scores. How much of a difference is there between "superior" and "exceptional", and what exactly makes something "very good" instead of simply "good"?

That aside, I'm wondering if they're making any adjustments to the values of elements. Under the current system, a 3T-3T is worth a whole point more than a 4T. 8O

[skatemom2002]

There are two other people that must agree with the technical caller. The referee is one, and I'm not sure the exact name of the other person (basically an assistant caller). All three must agree on the calling of the element, as well as the level. If there is any discrepancy, the element is flagged, and reviewed after the skater's performance. Since all three have video replay, they can review the element, and then have to come to consensus about the appropriate call. It doesn't affect the judging at all, since all the judges are doing is rating how well the element is performed, regardless of what we call the element.

[adrianchew]

Regardless of the merits or not of the CoP, the issue at large of truly addressing the problems of bad judging and collusion has not truly been addressed. The ISU is being led by someone who truly does not understand the sport of figure skating - and sadly enough - there's been enough happenings with the USFSA of the political and power play nature that the current leadership is indeed suspect.

Who do we listen to - a speedskater and some bigwigs in office at the USFSA, etc - or former champions and Olympic medalists? Skaters who are now professional and have no vested interest to gain - yet these very champions of yesteryears are questioning the ISU.

Its sad, but Chuck Foster and most of the USFSA leadership are caving to Ottavio Cinquanta and the ISU. I expected as much - Chuck Foster seems to be a spineless controlled puppet of a portion of the USFSA leadership.

[icyboid]

There are two other people that must agree with the technical caller. The referee is one, and I'm not sure the exact name of the other person (basically an assistant caller). All three must agree on the calling of the element, as well as the level.

Thanks for enlightening me. So I guess the new dilemma is how all 3 officials who are supposed to be thorough in understanding the rules made the mistake of identifying some spins and footwork as the nonexistent level 4. :frus:

[SkateFan123]

There are two other people that must agree with the technical caller. The referee is one, and I'm not sure the exact name of the other person (basically an assistant caller). All three must agree on the calling of the element, as well as the level. If there is any discrepancy, the element is flagged, and reviewed after the skater's performance. Since all three have video replay, they can review the element, and then have to come to consensus about the appropriate call. It doesn't affect the judging at all, since all the judges are doing is rating how well the element is performed, regardless of what we call the element.
No one flagged it when the caller called a spin a level 4 spin. The computer doesn't allow for the entry of a level 4 spin so the scoring for that spin was ZERO! Judges who can't judge, shouldn't have the title or responsibility.

Wonder whos going to pay for all this? Dwindling fan support means less TV revenue, which means less money for the ISU, federations, and skaters. I wonder how judges at these events will enjoy sleeping in less than top notch hotels?

[SkateFan123]

Regardless of the merits or not of the CoP, the issue at large of truly addressing the problems of bad judging and collusion has not truly been addressed. The ISU is being led by someone who truly does not understand the sport of figure skating - and sadly enough - there's been enough happenings with the USFSA of the political and power play nature that the current leadership is indeed suspect.

Who do we listen to - a speedskater and some bigwigs in office at the USFSA, etc - or former champions and Olympic medalists? Skaters who are now professional and have no vested interest to gain - yet these very champions of yesteryears are questioning the ISU.

Its sad, but Chuck Foster and most of the USFSA leadership are caving to Ottavio Cinquanta and the ISU. I expected as much - Chuck Foster seems to be a spineless controlled puppet of a portion of the USFSA leadership.

And that has been my point! CoP is fine in terms of giving points for moves on the ice. It does not address cheaters. It just does a darn good job of hiding them! Cinquanta uses figure skating to fund his beloved speed skating. Well, less money for figure skating will mean less money for speed skating and Speedy just doesn't get it.

The USFS leadership is non-existent. I totally agree with the RFSF on this one!

Your comment about former skaters speaking out is true. They must speak out. Current skaters can't thanks to Cinquanta's new rule that says if you speak out against the ISU you will be banned from participation in ISU events. This applies to Federations, judges, referees, and athletes. Someone should remind Cinquanta that art of dictatorship is dying out.

The real power and solutions lie with athletes. If they refused to show up and skate, the ISU might just figure it out.

[jumpstart]

[QUOTE=singerskates]
"Actually the second mark is made up of many things and is accountable too. Program Components - Five skill sets define the categories of assessment under the old “Presentation Mark”:

Skating Skills
Transitions
Performance
Choreography
Interpretation

Each of the above is graded in levels 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2, -3.
Walk Through of a Program Using the COP System"


In fact, the second mark is graded on a scale of 10 for each of the above components. It is only the elements that are given a level of execution from 3 to -3. The caller also has no say in how a judge chooses to interpret the 5 components of the second mark.
I believe the judges have the ability to select a mark from 1 - 10 in .25 increments.

[Tapper]

Re: Anonymity and CoP in general

This makes perfect sense to me. If I feared retribution from my federation, or was getting death threats in the middle of the night during the Olympics, I would want to be anonymous too!!

icedancer, who generally likes to live under a rock most of the time anyways... 8-)


ITA! Death threats, I would think, are a lot harder to sleep with than booing (which isn't much fun either)!

That skating could be so vicious... So who knew?! :??