Initial Grand Prix Assignments

[sk8pics]

The initial assignments for all the Grand Prix events are posted on the isu web site: www.isu.org

There's a link on the main page.

Pat

[angelskates]

Well done to Miriam Manzano (AUS) who has been invited to TWO GP events - USA and Japan!

[Bailey]

Joannie Rochette is not going to be at Skate Canada according to this list. She will skate in China and France. I'm disappointed...

[cygnus]

I'm a little surprised that Canada has only 2 dance teams on the GP circuit. They really need to get some new blood out there. I thought L/M were eligible this year (for the GP) - why don't the have any assignments? Or L/Z?

[skatepixie]

Hmmm...Im glad Sashie isnt over working herself this season. Looks like Ira is doing Russia and China...

[MQSeries]

Hooray that Michelle will be competing in the GP this season. I'm looking forward to seeing COP-type programs from Michelle. I wonder if Michelle will go for another choreographer or if Morosov will be capable of doing something different for her this coming season.

[Kabooke]

Hooray that Michelle will be competing in the GP this season. I'm looking forward to seeing COP-type programs from Michelle. I wonder if Michelle will go for another choreographer or if Morosov will be capable of doing something different for her this coming season.

ITA!

It's great to see Michelle back!


I think she will keep Nikolai but it will be something different
from what we've seen the past couple of years, especially
with Rafael at the helm.

Rafael wasn't pleased with "Tosca" and with
his contemplation of scraping "Tosca"
last season before nationals,
I'm sure with hisinput we'll see
more interesting and exciting things from Michelle.

[schnood]

Looks like an awesome roster for Skate Canada! I'm thinking of going now! Surprising to see Michelle Kwan competing :) I though Stanislav Timchenko retired. Hmm...sad to see only 2 Cdn dance teams out there. Aren't Lefebvre & Markov eligible this year? Or any other team?

[Emanfan]

[QUOTE=schnoodAren't Lefebvre & Markov eligible this year? [/QUOTE]

I'm thinking that he hasn't yet been released from the Russian Fed. Does anyone actually know that?

[evereg]

Looks like an awesome roster for Skate Canada! I'm thinking of going now! Surprising to see Michelle Kwan competing :) Yes, it is an awesome roster. Where is Skate Canada being held anyway? I do no remember. Does anyone know off hand? (Feeling too lazy to go to Skate Canada's web-site.)

Thanks - evereg

[Emanfan]

Yes, it is an awesome roster. Where is Skate Canada being held anyway? I do no remember. Does anyone know off hand? (Feeling too lazy to go to Skate Canada's web-site.)

Thanks - evereg

Halifax, Nova Scotia

[Schmeck]

Glad to see MK back on the rosters, but of course this doesn't mean she is competing, just that she's been invited - right?

And what's the significance of three names above the black bar, then the rest below?

Schmeck, happy to see Angela Nikodinov on the list, and Jenny Kirk as well.

[PAskate]

And what's the significance of three names above the black bar, then the rest below?


The initial 3 are the seeded entries in each event. The "A" following the country indicates that is their optional non-scoring event.

[missflick]

[QUOTE=schnoodAren't Lefebvre & Markov eligible this year?

I'm thinking that he hasn't yet been released from the Russian Fed. Does anyone actually know that?[/QUOTE]

He doesn't have to be released by the Russian Fed to do the GP, does he? I thought that was just for worlds (and the 2-year wait period as well). :?:

[MQSeries]

Glad to see MK back on the rosters, but of course this doesn't mean she is competing, just that she's been invited - right?

Schmeck, happy to see Angela Nikodinov on the list, and Jenny Kirk as well.

If Michelle plan on competing at World in Russia then she better has at least one GP event marked down definitely on her competition calendar. She cannot afford to wait until World to find out how she'll be judged under COP. I'm sure Aruturian will not allow that. Michelle has been up, down, up, down ... in her long career. I think it's good for her that she isn't always expected to win anymore. Let the burden of being no. 1 falls on the hot skater of the moment.

Yes, it's nice to see Angela on the GP list for at least one event. However, if she continues to double jumps and show a lack of attack again this year then I think the USFSA should give up on her and award GP spot to some newcomer who isn't afraid to attack. Angela had plenty of chances in the past to prove herself but has rarely been able to. I know she has a few adversities in life to deal with in the past. But this is a competition, and the only thing that matters to the judges is what the skater is putting out on the ice, not any emotional baggage that she might be carrying.

[Kabooke]

Glad to see MK back on the rosters, but of course this doesn't mean she is competing, just that she's been invited - right?

And what's the significance of three names above the black bar, then the rest below?

The U.S. will be represented in the Grand Prix Series by a total of 41 entries, including Michelle Kwan, who returns to the series for the first time since 2002

http://www.usfsa.org/Events.asp

Oh, those above the black line are
seeded skaters and those below aren't.

[Schmeck]

Kabooke, thanks for the link!

I also wish Michelle would pick a different GP event instead of Skate Canada - only because SA and SC are back-to-back weekends, and so early in the season as well. I don't see the big deal about her not wanting to travel to Europe or Asia - all these GP events are judged by a mix of international judges, so who cares if the event is in North America or Antartica? :lol:

[MizEdiesBoy]

Does anyone know why Kevin Van Der Perren was invited only to Cup of Russia?

How do they determine who gets seeded and who gets invited? I would really like to know, please.

[Debbie S]

Does anyone know why Kevin Van Der Perren was invited only to Cup of Russia?

How do they determine who gets seeded and who gets invited? I would really like to know, please.

Seeded skaters are those that finished in the top 6 in a discipline at Worlds the year before. No more than 3 seeded skaters are allowed in each discipline per GP event. Those that did not finish in the top 6 at last year's Worlds or did not attend Worlds, are "invited" skaters. What happens is that each national fed puts the skaters it wants to give GP assignments to on a list, and it is up to the host country federations/organzing committees to invite skaters.

If Van Der Perren was only invited to 1 event, it may be that that's all the Belgian fed wanted him to get.

[Sk8Bunny]

YAY for Ryan Jahnke for receiving two GP assignments!!!

[3Loop3Loop]

I'd like to throw out a few thoughts on the US Grand Prix assignements-

I'm unsure about Evan Lysacek being on the Grand Prix due to the recent injuries he's had. His triple axel was shaky and not even a 3/3 combo. Never had a quad. With those injuries I don't think he will be in any shape to compete and be consistent. Loved his performances at last years nationals tho.

I would question Beatrisa Liang's assigment too for similar a similar reason- she's been injured off and on for the past few seasons. I know she has done tough 3/3 combos, but look how long she has struggled.

I'm an agreement with the previous post about Angela Nikidinov- she doesn't stand up in competition, and no 3/3. I love her basic skating, spinning, and jumps (when she lands them) though. Her artistry is wonderful. But how long has she struggled?

I also wonder why AP McDonough wasn't given an assignment. Any news on her?

Any news on Ye Bin Mok?

I would much rather see new faces representing the US who may be inexperienced, but would be at least injury free. Jane Bugaeva, Alexandra Patterson, Kimmie Meisner, Katy Taylor, Scott Smith, Jordan Brauninger, and Derrick Delmore would be examples.

I hope Johnny Weir consistently lands a quad. I also hope Ryan Jahnke can be consistent, especially the 3axel and 3lutz3loop, and lands a quad.

I hope our pairs show better consistency and artistry. Go Don/Hunt!

[SkateFan123]

Hooray that Michelle will be competing in the GP this season. I'm looking forward to seeing COP-type programs from Michelle. I wonder if Michelle will go for another choreographer or if Morosov will be capable of doing something different for her this coming season.
MK was invited to appear. It does not mean she will. Same with all skaters on the list. The initial lists usually changes by the time the events roll around.

[Kabooke]

MK was invited to appear. It does not mean she will. Same with all skaters on the list. The initial lists usually changes by the time the events roll around.

I think she will.
Especially with her coach there.

Besides that, last year Michelle wasn't on any
list at all. So, I think she has atleast told them
their is a good chance she will.

[Kabooke]

Kabooke, thanks for the link!

I also wish Michelle would pick a different GP event instead of Skate Canada - only because SA and SC are back-to-back weekends, and so early in the season as well. I don't see the big deal about her not wanting to travel to Europe or Asia - all these GP events are judged by a mix of international judges, so who cares if the event is in North America or Antartica? :lol:

Sure!

I've heard on numerous occassions that Michelle
doesn't like to travel of fly that much. And if she does
compete this season then going to Beijing and Moscow
will be enough travel for her indeed.

[nyskatefan]

How shocking, Michelle's events are restricted to N. America. Wouldn't want to risk it by skating outside her home continent ;) Not that it matters because I expect any minute now she'll announce she isn't competing in the Grand Prix series.


I didn't realize there was a "home continent" advantage now. Maybe someone should let the Canadian Federation know that Michelle will need preferential treatment ... since she's in her "home continent."

[nyskatefan]

Don't presume you can tell me what to do Bondo.

And yes, I did read your post. If you insist on getting snarky about Michelle, don't be aggravated when someone throws it right back at you.

[nyskatefan]

Funny, when one of your little sarcastic remarks gets challenged ... you start name-calling. Talk about pathetic. :roll:

[Hannahclear]

Aww geez Bondo, worried that one of your favorite snarking points on Michelle, her lack of competitions, is going away? How sad for you.......wellllll I'm sure you'll find SOMETHING to diss her about. :lol:

[Kemy]

For such a good topic, this thread is getting a little petty. I think it's great that Michelle is getting more (any) Gp comps this year and that Sasha is getting less. One had too few and one had too many and now they're meeting at that nice little place in the middle.

BTW Bondo, I think they're taking offense at you saying that Michelle wouldn't risk it by leaving her home continent. Perhaps if you explain what she's risking?

[MizEdiesBoy]

Seeded skaters are those that finished in the top 6 in a discipline at Worlds the year before. No more than 3 seeded skaters are allowed in each discipline per GP event. Those that did not finish in the top 6 at last year's Worlds or did not attend Worlds, are "invited" skaters. What happens is that each national fed puts the skaters it wants to give GP assignments to on a list, and it is up to the host country federations/organzing committees to invite skaters.

If Van Der Perren was only invited to 1 event, it may be that that's all the Belgian fed wanted him to get.

Thanks, Debbie. I didn't know that is how they were selected.

I wonder, if what you say is true about VDP and the Belgian fed, if they were unhappy with his performances at Euros and Worlds this year, not cracking the top ten and all. Last year he did finish in 10th at Euros.

[Hannahclear]

There was an article on the USFSA website that specifically referenced Michelle's return to the GP series. It's linked earlier on this thread. I think Michelle's coach is putting more heat into her training regime.

[Schmeck]

Let's see Michelle's "history" at GP events:

North American results (SA, SC) 10 1st place, 2 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 7th.

Others (Japan Open, Trophe Lalique, Nations Cup) 4 1st, 1 3rd

Two that I'm not sure where they were skated: Honda Prelude Cup (pre-Japan Open?) 1st

Continent's Cup 1st

Rats - thunderstorm coming - I'll do some comparison math later!

[Schmeck]

OK, I think I have a break in between storms...

North American wins 10/14 - 71%
Europe/Asia wins 4/5 - 80%

Average placement in North America - 1.7
Average placement in Europe/Asia - 1.4

Gee, I think she does better outside of the North American continent!

[jcspkbfan]

I hope nobody minds if I interrupt this discussion of which part of the world Michelle chooses to compete (personally, I'm just happy to see she's finally decided to commit to a full competitive skating season again) to go back to some of the other skaters mentioned earlier in this thread. :)

[QUOTE=schnoodAren't Lefebvre & Markov eligible this year?
I'm thinking that he hasn't yet been released from the Russian Fed. Does anyone actually know that?[/QUOTE]

I really hope that's the only reason why Lefebvre and Markov aren't on the GP event schedule yet. I honestly can't think of another reason why they wouldn't be competing on the GP circuit next season! But if L&M really aren't able to compete internationally yet, I hope some other Canadian ice dance team will be eventually named--surely there are more than two or three ice dance teams in this country who could use the competitive experience?

I'm disappointed Joannie won't be at Skate Canada, too. While I'm happy Lesley Hawker received a GP assignment and I'm just happy to see Annie will be back next season, period, I still would have liked to see Joannie and Cynthia compete head-to-head at least one more time before 2005 Canadians. Aren't the top three Canadian women usually sent to Skate Canada (as they've done with the men)? I wonder why that's not the case this time? I'm guessing Mira Leung will compete on the JGP circuit again this season.

I'm also disappointed Johnny Weir and Jeff Buttle aren't scheduled to compete against each other at any of the GP events. They're probably two of the most artistic skaters in the world right now, Johnny placed fifth at his first Worlds without a quad this year; Jeff placed eighth at his first worlds without a quad in 2003. It would have been interesting to see them compete head-to-head and see where they stand against each other (with or without quads!)

I also noticed there's no Canadian woman listed for Cup of Russia yet, but there is still a blank spot avaliable, so hopefully that will change eventually!

But even with these disappointments, there still appears to be plenty of interesting lineups in this year's GP series. I'm curious to find out who will fill up all those remaining blank spots! :)

[hiliairyh]

Actually history has shown that Michelle's own personal safety is a risk sometimes when she skates outside of US. In 1996 championship series in Paris, some nut was threatening to kill her, and then at world 04 there was the streaker fiasco. She came through both times like a great champion.

I agree with some of you that some poster's constant effort at dissing and digging Michelle is a bit much, but very predictable though.

[hiliairyh]

You conviniently ignore the positive things I say about Michelle...no one makes a fuss out of those so they drop out of mind and you only remember the negatives.



Oh was I talking about you? I said some poster's effort to diss and dig are predictable.

Hmmm.. I wonder who is overreacting? :lol:

The 6.0s at worlds are very well deserved.

Back to topic, I am so glad that Amber, Angela, and Bebe are all invited to some GP events.

[Tapper]

I don't think that Michelle is adverse to risk, though I know that many think she plays it too safe. IMHO, It's all strategy, and hopefully it will work for her this year and next. Personally, though she's still my all-time favorite, I really don't much care what happens this year... I don't care who wins or who loses. I'm so burnt out from arguing about politics that I can't begin to bring myself to engage in arguments about Michelle! :lol:

And, last season left me pretty bored (mostly). Something is missing... even Dick Button bores me! :)

And I've decided that it's gotta be ok with me if some people do not like Michelle, or SEEM to me not to like Michelle. Like Duh! It's a free country, isn't it? I mean, it's their business and everyone has a right to their own opinion, right?

Now let's see how long I can maintain this sort of distance... it's the only way I'll survive the season! :lol:

[Schmeck]

I believe this thread is about GP assignments, which is why I focussed on them.

[Schmeck]

Michelle's Olympics results:

Nagano, Japan 2nd place
SLC, Utah, 3rd place

OK, she does better at the Olympics outside of North America too...

[Annes]

I hope nobody minds if I interrupt this discussion of which part of the world Michelle chooses to compete (personally, I'm just happy to see she's finally decided to commit to a full competitive skating season again) to go back to some of the other skaters mentioned earlier in this thread. :)



I really hope that's the only reason why Lefebvre and Markov aren't on the GP event schedule yet. I honestly can't think of another reason why they wouldn't be competing on the GP circuit next season! But if L&M really aren't able to compete internationally yet, I hope some other Canadian ice dance team will be eventually named--surely there are more than two or three ice dance teams in this country who could use the competitive experience?

I'm disappointed Joannie won't be at Skate Canada, too. While I'm happy Lesley Hawker received a GP assignment and I'm just happy to see Annie will be back next season, period, I still would have liked to see Joannie and Cynthia compete head-to-head at least one more time before 2005 Canadians. Aren't the top three Canadian women usually sent to Skate Canada (as they've done with the men)? I wonder why that's not the case this time? I'm guessing Mira Leung will compete on the JGP circuit again this season.

I'm also disappointed Johnny Weir and Jeff Buttle aren't scheduled to compete against each other at any of the GP events. They're probably two of the most artistic skaters in the world right now, Johnny placed fifth at his first Worlds without a quad this year; Jeff placed eighth at his first worlds without a quad in 2003. It would have been interesting to see them compete head-to-head and see where they stand against each other (with or without quads!)

I also noticed there's no Canadian woman listed for Cup of Russia yet, but there is still a blank spot avaliable, so hopefully that will change eventually!

But even with these disappointments, there still appears to be plenty of interesting lineups in this year's GP series. I'm curious to find out who will fill up all those remaining blank spots! :)

Surely SC could invite a team that finished in the 5-8th range at Nationals to Skate Canada, since it is their own home event? Otherwise they are leaving no room whatsoever for future Canadian dance teams that need GP experience to develop.

[turtlehead]

Doesn't anybody realize that there is other news here then Michelle Kwan skating? Like Sasha only doing 2 events! I think it's smart for her to pace herself. And Irina coming back! Cup of China and Cup of Russia (which are also on her "home continent"). I can't wait to see Irina again!! So much more to discuss other then the same old garbage fights about Michelle. They get so repetitive. It's funny, those that find the most fault in Michelle usually say she's safe and same old, same old. Well so is this fight. :roll:

[Dilng]

Why is it that Kwan fans get physco everytime someone says the truth about her??? Bondo didn't say anything that wasn't true!!!!!

[lilwish]

I am soooooooooo tired of talking/reading/everybody infighting. I really would love if skating could be, as it used to be, for me, a respite from the contention and constant unpleasantness of the "real" world.

More and more I see these conversations, here, as a reflection of the troubles around the world. I love skating as a way to forget how difficult and complcated life is. I wish we could all approach these discussions that way. Often, I think that the discussions here are merely another way to argue about world events and not a way to find joy where it can be found.

I find my joy in skating through some skaters more than others but I find that less and less do I want to defend my ideas about that than to find a way to learn about the love each person here has for the skater they love. I am very disheartened that each thread becomes about Michelle/Sasha/quads/ the Japanese women... Each of which has value. But has become a way of finding fault with those who are achieving or with those who are not achieving what we might want them to....they are human ... Are we all not here because we love skating? Can we find some way to have a discussion without getting personal? Even about a particular skater?

In this world we live in now, tension is easy to find. We, here, on these boards, have more in common than we rise to the occasion to. I would love to see a thread that does not evaporate into vitrial. There is so much beauty and courage in this sport. Can we not talk about it with some grace and dignity. Can we not translate the love we have for each skater into some grace instead of a way to be intolerant and disdainful of someone who is equally glorious but not our chosen favorite? I know that there are times when there are pertinent conversation but I fear that the infighting here is leading in a direction where we will break off into little groups and not find a unity we value now but do not realize.

I am amazed Michelle is doing a full season for the first time in a long time. I am gratified that Sasha is pulling back and trying to figure out how to parlay last season into more medals. I am excited to see Jeff Buttle. The whole season is full of promise. I want to look for the hope and am interested in the insight of all of the people on this board and their well informed point of view. I just love to read it without dread that there will be some discourd. Don't we have enough of that in the rest of our lives? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, obviously, I just am begging all of us to try to remember the joy that brought us to the sport to begin with. And that each skater, great or fantastic is giving us a gift through skating.

[barnita]

Well, I would just like to say that I will be attending my first senior competition - ever - and it will be Skate Canada. I am just thrilled to see that Michelle is listed to be there. She is my all-time favorite; been watching her on TV since she was 13. Just to see her compete LIVE - what a birthday gift that will be. Also, to see Evgeni, Fumie and Shen / Zhao. And, of course, all our great Canadians. Go, Emanuel! Got my ticket today! :D

[Schmeck]

Thanks for responding directly to the content of my post.

History shows that Michelle has better results in the North America (especially the US since she has competed here much more) than in other continents/countries. Often as a result of crowds responding more excitedly and often judges responding as such. So it would seem either she skates better here or is judged easier, either way it would be a risk to skate elsewhere.

P.S. Hannahclear...I was being skeptical about Michelle skating in the GP series...after two years off. I hope she does skate. I have no ill will towards Michelle. If Michelle changed a few things that bother me about all skaters that do them, I would be more than willing to enjoy her skating.

Dilng, history does not show that Michelle has better results in North America (see my posts about a higher % of wins in Europe and Asia vs US and Canada, and her better placement at the Nagano Olympics compared to the one in SLC) so what Bondo stated above is not all true.

[AxelAnnie22]

Well, I would just like to say that I will be attending my first senior competition - ever - and it will be Skate Canada. I am just thrilled to see that Michelle is listed to be there. She is my all-time favorite; been watching her on TV since she was 13. Just to see her compete LIVE - what a birthday gift that will be. Also, to see Evgeni, Fumie and Shen / Zhao. And, of course, all our great Canadians. Go, Emanuel! Got my ticket today! :D
Hey, congrats. Watching it live is a whole new ballgame!

[Schmeck]

Uh, Nationals isn't an international competition...

[Kemy]

Kwan World's Competitive History
1994 Japan-8th
1995 Great Britain-4th
1996 Canada-1st
1997 Switzerland-2nd
1998 USA-1st
1999 Finland-2nd
2000 France-1st
2001 Vancouver-1st
2002 Japan-2nd
2003 USA-1st
2004 Germany-3rd

In her NA comps, she won 100% of the time. In her non-NA comps, she's won 0% of the time. So this supports the theory.

I suppose the her history at Nationals does show that she wins this event in North America more than she wins overseas, so I won't display those statistics. ;)

GPF she hasnt won since she won the 1996 ISU Champions Series Finals (before it was called GPF.)
1996-France-1st
1997-Canada-2nd
2000- France-2nd
2001- Japan-2nd
2002- Canada-2nd

in her NA comps, she won 0% of the time. In her non-NA comps, she's won 33% of the time.

[Kemy]

oops...double post

[icedancer2]

I am soooooooooo tired of talking/reading/everybody infighting. I really would love if skating could be, as it used to be, for me, a respite from the contention and constant unpleasantness of the "real" world.

More and more I see these conversations, here, as a reflection of the troubles around the world. I love skating as a way to forget how difficult and complcated life is. I wish we could all approach these discussions that way. Often, I think that the discussions here are merely another way to argue about world events and not a way to find joy where it can be found.

I find my joy in skating through some skaters more than others but I find that less and less do I want to defend my ideas about that than to find a way to learn about the love each person here has for the skater they love. I am very disheartened that each thread becomes about Michelle/Sasha/quads/ the Japanese women... Each of which has value. But has become a way of finding fault with those who are achieving or with those who are not achieving what we might want them to....they are human ... Are we all not here because we love skating? Can we find some way to have a discussion without getting personal? Even about a particular skater?

In this world we live in now, tension is easy to find. We, here, on these boards, have more in common than we rise to the occasion to. I would love to see a thread that does not evaporate into vitrial. There is so much beauty and courage in this sport. Can we not talk about it with some grace and dignity. Can we not translate the love we have for each skater into some grace instead of a way to be intolerant and disdainful of someone who is equally glorious but not our chosen favorite? I know that there are times when there are pertinent conversation but I fear that the infighting here is leading in a direction where we will break off into little groups and not find a unity we value now but do not realize.

I am amazed Michelle is doing a full season for the first time in a long time. I am gratified that Sasha is pulling back and trying to figure out how to parlay last season into more medals. I am excited to see Jeff Buttle. The whole season is full of promise. I want to look for the hope and am interested in the insight of all of the people on this board and their well informed point of view. I just love to read it without dread that there will be some discourd. Don't we have enough of that in the rest of our lives? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, obviously, I just am begging all of us to try to remember the joy that brought us to the sport to begin with. And that each skater, great or fantastic is giving us a gift through skating.


Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this. I think we have to say it again and again and again -- quit the fighting and sniping at each other!!!

[loveskating]

Well, these days, I am just very grateful that there is international skating at all, and I'm very, very happy because I cannot imagine a fall season without that level of great skating to see!

I remember the first time I saw skaters like Oksana Baiul and Yuka Sato, Elena Bareshnaya (saw her with that jerk she was with before Anton) and the first time I saw Sasha Cohen skate, which was at Good Will Games, all on television -- and so many others! I just enjoy it all so much!

I'm sure there will be changes, adjustments, surprises, and some great skates.

[Rogue]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[jcspkbfan]

lilwish, yours is one of the best posts I've read on this forum in a long time--I couldn't have put it much better!

And congratuations, barnita, for getting to see Skate Canada on your birthday. It looks like you'll get to see lots of great skaters there...and hopefully, lots of great performances, too! :)

[Tapper]

Lilwish, very sweet post! :bow:

[Kelli]

Kwan World's Competitive History
1994 Japan-8th
1995 Great Britain-4th
1996 Canada-1st
1997 Switzerland-2nd
1998 USA-1st
1999 Finland-2nd
2000 France-1st
2001 Vancouver-1st
2002 Japan-2nd
2003 USA-1st
2004 Germany-3rd

In her NA comps, she won 100% of the time. In her non-NA comps, she's won 0% of the time. So this supports the theory.



Really, I'm staying out of this discussion, except to point out that France isn't in North America... :oops:

[icedancer2]

Really, I'm staying out of this discussion, except to point out that France isn't in North America... :oops:

You know, though, if France WERE in N. America it would be so much easier to get there -- heck, I'd go there all the time!! 8-)

[Kemy]

You know, though, if France WERE in N. America it would be so much easier to get there -- heck, I'd go there all the time!! 8-)

Haha...I was doing that list while I was working...Can you tell?

[Schmeck]

Kemy, thanks for doing the research!

[Schmeck]

Using the previously posted stats and adding her Nats performance (that it isn't international means nothing to the argument she does better in North America.)

North America:
Nationals 8 of 11
GPF 0 for 2
Worlds 4 for 4
GP 10 of 14
Olympic 0 of 1

Overall, 22 of 32=65% approx.

Non-NA
Worlds 1 of 7
GPF 1 of 3
GP 4 of 5
Olympic 0 of 1

Overall, 6 of 16= 40% approx.

The descrepency is more noticable in major event competition (Oly, World, Nat, and GPF) but it is still significant including GP.

But nationals is not an international competition, and Michelle doesn't have the option of competing in say, at China's Nationals or Russia's, unless she wants to change nationalities, so I think it's really lame, and just a manipulation of data to include national results. I think it invalidates the entire argument.

The data without nationals:

North America average placement 1.67
Europe/Asia average placement 2.25

Worlds results brought down the E/A average, but then, Michelle has competed every year at Worlds, even those intimidating, frightening ones in Europe and Asia! She's done just fine at the Grand Prix events she entered in Europe and Asia, even at the GPFs.

[sssErinsss]

This is only my 3rd post here. I like visiting all sorts of different boards and enjoy the banter between fans. I am a fan of figure skating. I have watched these skaters come and go for more years than I care to admit but they have all brought me joy by skating their hearts out. The best of the best and the mediocre at best (the poor souls who never make it out of qualifying rounds) have given me some of the best "feel good" moments of my life.

I rarely check in over here and couldn't remember why so I came to the boards this morning and opened this thread. After Bondo's last post, I am done. I am never going to ask myself why again. I will delete this board from my favorites. I have never in my life heard a more irrational argument in skating. How can you include N. American Nationals in one column and not the other when doing a comparison? Either you leave it out or Michelle must be 0 for how many years outside N. American for Nationals in the other column, bringing the average down in that one. The same could be done with Plushenko or Slutskaya, etc. It's just stupid.

I am not just a Michelle fan or a Sasha fan or an Irina fan...hell, I prefer the pairs...but this is just ridiculous and not only can I believe that I wasted my time reading this thread but actually responded to it. Ick to myself and to the rest of you who engage in this nonsense.

Way to ruin a skating board. Good day...back to boards that may bicker but don't engage in irrational nonsense just for the sake of doing it.

You are no fan of skating Bondo. You are only a fan of yourself.

Cheers!

:frus: :frus: :frus: :frus: :frus: :frus: :frus:

[Kemy]

Okay...this debate is getting a little out of hand. I think people are interpretting the debate a little differently and thus this debate will never end.

Bondo,
Please explain the reasons why you think that Michelle wins more in NA then in the rest of the World. I think this will clear up whether or not Natioanls should be added or not...Just talking about her wins in general is kind of an open argument.

IMHO, I do think that Michelle wins more at home, but I'm not sure is that's true performance-wise. Her Nagano Olympics skate would have won her the gold at the Salt Lake City Olympics. She's won a few Nationals after falls because people made more mistakes. I think it all evens out performace-wise and her wins and losses just depends how others handle the situation.

[Tapper]

If my conclusion isn't significant...why has Michelle won 4 of 4 Worlds in NA and only 1 of 7 outside NA? Why is the geography not relevant and the disparity a fluke?


I think the problem here might be that though the numbers may indicate that Michelle wins more competitions in NA than outside NA, they do not explain why she wins or fails where she wins or fails. A simple statistical presentation like this does not show cause and effect, and I wonder if some people are thinking that you are suggesting that "in NA" or "out of NA" is the single factor that causes Michelle's successes and failures.

You see a pattern, and I see (in your next post) that you have a couple of hunches as to what might be factors that cause Michelle's wins and losses in and out of NA. IMHO, you have an interesting beginning to a complicated study of how place affects outcomes. I would think that the numbers are merely the jumping off point, and [personally] think that the most interesting study would be a qualitative study regarding the power/effects of place.

Do you think that the culture (NA or non-NA) of the arena affects the performer as well as the judges? Is one cultural arena (NA or non-NA) more objective than the other? How do the biases of the different cultures (NA and non-NA) affect the judgement call on this one skater's performances?

I would think that a case could be made to suggest that Michelle's losses are the result of cultural biases just as effectively as they could be made to suggest that her wins are the result of cultural biases.

I don't know... I think this particular argument could go on for eternity! Please note that I'm not arguing for or against! ;)

[prunes89]

Sasha is my favorite skater, but I'm disappointed that she's going to take it easy this season. I can't believe she's only skating in 2 GP events. I feel like she's "pulled a Kwan."
I just hope Sasha comes out with her 3/3's and her quad this season and shows them all why she's the best in the world right now.
Sasha is going to be World Champion this year.

[Tapper]

Tapper, I think that is definitely true, geography is not the ONLY aspect. Being fresh out of a social statistics class, I know there is basically always multiple independent factors that produce a result. However, researchers usually try to narrow it to two variables (location and result in this case) and just look at the strength of this hypothesis. If I felt dedicated, or had the time, I'd do a Chi-Square test of significance to see if these results are actually statistically significant.

Similarly to how I'm comparing geography and results, people could, and have, compared Sasha's results with either the significance of an event or whether Michelle was competing. Certainly the thought that Sasha chokes when its a big competition or when she is facing Michelle has been voiced. Usually it doesn't provoke quite the response.


Yes. It's just a comparison in results. These numbers would only show a correlation (if significant), not cause and effect. I think that people get 'provoked' because they think you are using your numbers to suggest cause and effect, which implies in this instance that cultural bias (judges in NA are influenced to give Michelle the win, but judges non-NA are not under those influences) determines the outcome of the event.

The idea of Sasha choking when skating in big events or when skating against Michelle... it is interesting, but to me it's a non-issue. I'm wondering if perhaps (this is just a possibility) the reason why the comparison regarding Michelle and the comparison regarding Sasha get such different responses is that the position on Michelle (NA vs non-NA) suggests that Michelle's success or failure in skating competition has little to do with her ability (or lack there of) and everything to do with where she skates, whereas the comparison with Sasha suggests that her success or failure is totally based on her own skills and how she uses them. The comparison (right or wrong) gives Sasha full credit for her win or loss (it's not blamed on the judges or the crowd but rather on her own reaction to the circumstances of the event), but the comparison for Michelle gives the credit to judges who are influenced by place.

These are just my thoughts on why some may react the way they do. Note that I myself and not 'provoked' but rather am doing my best to be a contributor to a rational discussion. Am I succeeding? ;)

[3Loop3Loop]

Is this a discussion of Grand Prix assignments for next year? Sasha and Michelle are not the only competitors worthy of discussion.

I'm going to ask my previous questions again-

Why was AP not given a spot and Bebe Liang was? Is AP still injured?

Was it was wise to give Bebe Liang a spot considering she's been consistently injured over the past few years?

How is Ye Bin Mok's recovery progressing?

Was it wise to give Evan Lysacek spots considering the major injury he sustained this past spring, especially with no quad and an inconsistent triple axel?

Why no Vanessa Gusmeroli?

Wasn't Anna Rechnio supposed to launching a comeback?

Have a great, and postive, day!

[Kemy]

Why was AP not given a spot and Bebe Liang was? Is AP still injured?Maybe Bebe is showing more motivation that AP at this point?
Was it was wise to give Bebe Liang a spot considering she's been consistently injured over the past few years?Why not? Everyone's been touting her as "the next big thing," but have assumed that she hasn't reached her potential because of her injuries. Plus, she didn't do too badly in past GP performances, I think.
Was it wise to give Evan Lysacek spots considering the major injury he sustained this past spring, especially with no quad and an inconsistent triple axel?Evan did well at last year's Nationals and has been doing well on the junior circuit. The injury happened this past spring. He has time to recover an if not, they can always add someone else in his place.

[prunes89]

Speaking of Sasha, prunes, I think it is a bit harsh to jump on Sasha's case for choosing not to do an extra event. The schedule is so dense in the fall that it really doesn't offer much extra experience/training value to do the third, and can be too much (as it may have been last year.) Besides, by not taking that third spot, she allows another American to get GP experience.

That's one way of looking at it Bondo, but it's still a cop out. I just don't agree with this decision at all. I hope it works to her advantage though and I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.
I have always admired Sasha for doing her own thing. Now it seems she is doing Michelle's thing.
I'm hoping for a few 3/3's this season (3loop/3loop she was supposed to have at Worlds, and the quad)

[likes2skate]

Hi Bondo, I think people are having a hard time with your statistics because US Nationals can only take place in the US. Basically, if you break down the arguement by the competition, including Nationals makes no sense.

Michelle's results at Worlds NA wins VS non NA wins
Michelle's results at GP events NA wins VS non NA wins
Michelle's results at US Nationals NA wins VA non NA wins

OBVIOUSLY, Michelle is going to have better results at US Nationals because the event is not heald anywhere else. I guess my point is, if your arguement is that Michelle gets better results at competitions when she skates in NA VS outside of NA...how is US Nationals relevent? You do not have US Nationas results outside of the US to to compare it to. Basically you are saying that Michelle wins US Nationals more times if the event is held in NA than if it is not held in NA. How is that even an arguement when the event is not skated outside of the United States? What are you comparing it to? If that is your arguement then it is safe to say that every skater that competes at US Nationals gets better results when the event is skated in NA.

Now, if your arguement is that Michelle SKATES better when she skates in NA, then I could see your point of including Nationals, however I guess someone would have to list how many times she skated clean VS not clean at each competition.

Finally my last question... Is it really a big deal that she does not like to travel? I once passed up a trip to the Bahamas because I hate to fly. I bet if Michelle was assigned to Cup of China, your arguement would be that she just chose the event because she is Chinese, and would have some type of home advantege. Michelle is evil because she does not skate the GP's, but now she is skating the GP's and she is a horrible person because she is not leaving North America.

[loveskating]

This attack on Bondo is kind of funny because for years, many of MK's fans have complained both on the MK Forum and otherwise that the international judges are not fair to Michelle (I disagree, but any check of the archives will illustrate that this has been a major issue) and precisely because she has not done as well in international competition as she has in national comps...probably including the pro ams.

One issue raised for a long time was that the European audience preferred Maria B. to Michelle...I think that might have even been mentioned by ABC commentators a few times! Generally, and quite obviously, the Europeans are not quite as enamored of MK as the US audience is.

For some time, this could be explained by the fact that the competition was not as tough...when MK was up against Nicole Bobek and Tonya Kwiatkowski after Tara quit; then Sarah Hughes and Angela made the national competition considerably tougher (despite her powerful performance in 1999, NNN never had a chance against MK without a lutz combo); then Sasha made it tougher still, while internationally, MK faced Maria B. and Irina S.

Additionally, MK has managed since 1998 to compete in only 2 ISU competitions before US nationals or three competitions twice in the GP Final.

On the other issue, me, I see a tendency in some of MK's fans to rush to attack THE POSTER, and anything they construe as "negative" about MK (which quite often is not even remotely negative in the first place objectively), and then blame the argument on the person who raised the issue (as if the MK fans had nothing to do with it starting the argument).

I'd just like to see rational discussion of the issue, is all, so that everyone can learn something, and here, Bondo has been far more rational IMHO.

But me, I think it all comes down to who you face in competition. Facing Naomi Nari Nam WITH a lutz combo and a second lutz would be tough for ANYONE. But she has not been competing.

Thanks for not leaving, Bondo, as so many people have...you always raise very interesting issues, IMHO.

[Schmeck]

I'd just like to see rational discussion of the issue, is all, so that everyone can learn something, and here, Bondo has been far more rational IMHO.

I think that using irrational logic (as in using national competition results in a comparison about international competitions) makes it difficult to see the so-called 'rational discussion'.

[likes2skate]

So basically all you are proving is that MK wins more in NA because she skates more in NA. Seems very logical to me...

If you are trying to prove that Mk's results are worse when skated outside NA, why include a competition that does not have international judges? That is all I am saying.

Loveskating- People disagree with Bondo because he is looking at judging results on specific competitions based on whether or not the competition happens to take place in NA. . Nationals does not take place anywhere else other the United States, and if you havn't noticed, the judges are waiting with bated breath to hand Sasha a title. Michelle is not winning Nationals because she is skating in North America, she is winning because she is skating better than everyone.


I wanted to edit this to ask another question...what conclusion are you trying to prove? If it is that Michelle generally skates better in NA then when she has to travel overseas, then I can see why you would add Nationals to the statistics.

[Schmeck]

Nationals is different from international competitions in one very important way - all national competitions use judges from their own country, exclusively. Now, if US Nationals had judges from Europe and Asia, and European and Asian countries used US judges at their national competitions, then maybe an argument could be considered. I'd add cheesefest results too, if they had any in Europe and Asia, since they do use international judges at the cheesefests.

[icedancer2]

I was going to start a new thread but thought I'd get this thread back to the original topic regarding GP assignments.

The USFS site had these additions to make today:

http://www.usfsa.org/Athletes.asp?id=216

Happy speculating!

[hiliairyh]

Reading MK forum and MK forum archives from people who previously have claimed they never go to MK forum. It must be off season :lol:

:lol:

icedancer thanks for the link.

[loveskating]

Nationals is different from international competitions in one very important way - all national competitions use judges from their own country, exclusively. Now, if US Nationals had judges from Europe and Asia, and European and Asian countries used US judges at their national competitions, then maybe an argument could be considered. I'd add cheesefest results too, if they had any in Europe and Asia, since they do use international judges at the cheesefests.

Yes, nationals is different. I think that Irina does better in her national Competitions as well, probably!

But IMHO the overall reason is that the competition at most Nationals is usually not quite as tough as it is internationally...id.

Its just not inaccurate to say that MK does better at Nationals...where she has often faced competition that is not as fierce as internationally... its a preception that is kind of obvious. The national champ of Canada sure does better nationally, see what I mean?

So why jump on Bondo and get all tense? Its just a very interesting issue, IMHO.

[likes2skate]

Its just not inaccurate to say that MK does better at Nationals...where she has often faced competition that is not as fierce as internationally... its a preception that is kind of obvious. The national champ of Canada sure does better nationally, see what I mean?

Loveskating, I agree 100% it is not inaccurate to say that Michelle skates better at Nationals. Her best skate was Nationals 1998, IMO. I think what Bondo is trying to say is International judges hold Michelle up if the competition takes place in North America, as opposed to somewhere else, and it just seems silly to include Nationals to prove the theroy when there are no international judges and the competition only takes place in the United States.

Her history at Worlds does support his theroy that MK gets better results in North America than if she is outside of North America. However, the way she skated shoud also be taked into consideration and IMO, none of her wins at Worlds were controversial, they were all very deserving. So what I have been saying to Bondo is, perhaps this just proves that Michelle tends to skate better when she does not have to travel far, as opposed to what I think Bondo was getting at.

[Haikurumba]

I'm a little surprised that Canada has only 2 dance teams on the GP circuit. They really need to get some new blood out there. I thought L/M were eligible this year (for the GP) - why don't the have any assignments? Or L/Z?

ISU world rank
determines who stays and goes
to grand prix events

Mr. Zukiwsky
and Miss. Longpree are not ranked
so they can not go

Russian and French girl
Skate Canada likely theirs
Open spot for them

No need for ranking
If you're sent to home event
Canada makes pick

Canada wants to
send more dance teams to grand prix
system holds them up

Stupid rank system
Juniors should not be in it
Does not work at all

[Haicool]

There is far too much
bitter in your heart, young man.
You should have a beer.