Verbally abusive coaches

[skatingatty]

I've read a lot on the other threads about coaches accused of sexually harassing or assaulting students, but what about verbally abusive coaches? I've seen coaches who scream and yell or put down their students. Should I tell their parents? Part of me thinks I should just butt out, because the parents are the ones who are paying for the coaches and surely they must know about it, though oftentimes the parents aren't right there at rinkside watching. Then again, I'd guess those are the same rationalizations that allowed other kids to be sexually or physically abused. Any thoughts?

[celtic]

I think the yelling and screaming is certainly a form of abuse. Maybe you could discuss it with the parents and also the skating director. Coaches who yell and scream, in my observation, rarely discern the more sensitive, timid students who are much more influenced by this, from the cocky, confident skaters who don't seem to be as affected.

Parents should not allow this and shouldn't let the coach tell them otherwise. After all, didn't all the skaters initially begin skating because they loved it? Competition is stressful enough without their coach yelling, screaming, and often swearing at them. The coach should be a supportive person for all students and should instill confidence, self-acceptance and a love of skating in his/her students. My heart goes out to the students of this coach.

[jenlyon60]

I've seen coaches do this to other coaches' students, also. Equally annoying...

[kisscid]

I have seen this a lot. What makes me made is when the coach is yelling at a student and the parent is right there watching, letting it happen. Or worse...There is one little girl at the rink who's father is her coach. He's always yelling at her . I have also seen him slap her thigh when she drops her hip. It's so disgusting. Sometimes a parent thinks this is what it takes to get their kid to the Olympics. I don't have children and I have obviously never been to the Olympics so I really shouldn't judge...but I'd like to think there is a better way.
Cid

[Caro]

Definately happens all the time. It's really sad to watch. Some little girls/boys burst into tears and all their parents do is look at them with a stern "get-back-to-work-or-else" look...

There's this "evil" coach that I've seen around who screams at her students and stuff. One day, another coach was screaming at her student and then the evil coach, passing by, said: "Now THAT's coaching!" . Like what the heck, do they encourage each other to scream and verbally abuse skaters?!?!

This verbally abusive way might work for some, but I know a couple of girls who quit skating because they couldn't take it anymore. They still enjoyed skating, but the hated being coached so they never improved. I mean, being abused on the ice takes away all the joy a skater may have for skating. I don't really think that's the way to go. These girls saw it like a kind of punishment to make them train with these coaches.... Is this what Olympic dreams are made of? I hope not!!!

[celtic]

Definately happens all the time. It's really sad to watch. Some little girls/boys burst into tears and all their parents do is look at them with a stern "get-back-to-work-or-else" look...

There's this "evil" coach that I've seen around who screams at her students and stuff. One day, another coach was screaming at her student and then the evil coach, passing by, said: "Now THAT's coaching!" . Like what the heck, do they encourage each other to scream and verbally abuse skaters?!?!

This verbally abusive way might work for some, but I know a couple of girls who quit skating because they couldn't take it anymore. They still enjoyed skating, but the hated being coached so they never improved. I mean, being abused on the ice takes away all the joy a skater may have for skating. I don't really think that's the way to go. These girls saw it like a kind of punishment to make them train with these coaches.... Is this what Olympic dreams are made of? I hope not!!!

I would guess that this abusive coach doesn't really know what is "coaching" and doesn't take anyone very far. Coaches are paid employees, and the parents/skaters are the employers. Many coaches use these kids to make a name for themselves. Interesting that most coaches with successful skaters don't behave this way: go to Nationals and you will not see this. I know there are some well-known successful coaches who yell and scream, but most don't -- they know they produce a better skater with encouragement, support and a pleasant atmosphere.

Maybe the parents at the rinks in question should look around for coaches who treat their skaters with kindness and have students who enjoy themselves during lessons.

Interesting thought: Put screaming coaches in the penalty box!

[2sk8]

Important point in this thread - I would guess verbal & emotional abuse is far more common than sexual harassment, but doesn't get as much attention. Also, it's probably a lot easier for other coaches, parents & rink management to "turn a blind eye" if they aren't forced to get involved. Even physical violence in front of a skater can be brushed off as the coach "had a bad day". Or, if the coach treats some kids worse than others, parents are afraid to speak up because their kid might be the next "victim". Most people can distinguish between a raised voice & screaming/swearing/etc. that rises to the level of abuse in other settings (like a school) - why is it so tricky in a rink? I echo skatingatty's question - any insight into this? Places that have successfully corrected a problem like this? How & using what standards?

[7302005]

I wrote a thesis on emotional abuse. Verbal abuse is certainly a part of emotional abuse.

It is a very difficult situation to intervene and most of us are uncertain as to what to do. Even though I wrote a thesis on the elements of emotional abuse, I am not certain that I could say anything to either the coach or the parents. I guess I am a coward. :frus:

[kisscid]

I guess I am a coward. :frus:

So am I. I have no right telling a parent or a coach how to act. I'm not a parent or a coach. I just look the other way. I think most people do. I feel bad for the child but it's scary to intervine.
Cid

[Schmeck]

Please, do intervene - get over being scared, and think of how you can help someone. What if you were the one being abused? Wouldn't you want someone to help you?

Luckily, our rink has some pretty strict behavior policies for all skaters on the ice, including coaches. There's even a line about not giving others dirty looks! I'd check with the rink management, just ask if you could have a copy of the policy that governs on-ice behavior of skaters. Most likely, if you are skating on contracted ice, you've already read and signed a copy.

[Chico]

This is a difficult subject. I don't agree that you should handle this. I would suggest telling your parent and let them talk to the skaters parent. And then, the parent should watch and talk to the coach. Verbal "abuse" is abuse. It can drain the spirit right out of a person. Your coach should be a person that you can talk to, listen to with respect, and trust with your well being as a skater. I do think some folks think they need to be controlling as a coach to maintain respect and teach. My experience is that respect is earned and good coaching can be accomplished with a positive attitude. There's a saying, can't remember the quote exactly, but it says something like....Your yelling so loud I can't hear you. Maybe, you just don't want to. Some coaches aren't aware they do "this", others just don't care. Sometimes, it's a little of both. Coaches can yell without being abusive. Yelling to check or stand up, etc. is not abuse, it's being a coach! You can feel the difference. One pushes you a little harder, the others makes you want to disappear.

Chico

[Aussie Willy]

I do think coaches who abuse students should be reported to their relevant professional association or if employed by the rink, then the rink. But then it depends on how effective that association or rink is.

We had a case here (not at our rink) where a coach abused another coach over their right to be in a particular figure session in front of his students. It was just disgusting, particularly seeing the abused coach has never raised his voice, even in pushing a student through program. A lot of skaters and parents complained about this coaches behaviour to our state association but there was not much that could be done because they as so ineffective.

However where you are there might be a better chance of recourse. Just remember that it is not just the student that is affected but I am sure it makes everyone else in the session feel uncomfortable and does not create a nice atmosphere - after all isn't skating meant to be fun too. Maybe if you approached the issue from the perspective of saying how uncomfortable it makes you feel to hear someone raise their voice like that, then that would be a better way of saying something. You don't even need to mention the particular student so you are not making it difficult for them.

Also are there others who feel uncomfortable too so you could put in a group complaint? Just as you are discussing it on this forum, do you discuss it with others at your rink?

[Mel On Ice]

These are many of the reasons I believe it should be a requirement in getting coaching certification that coaches also get training/degreed in child development.

[2sk8]

Luckily, our rink has some pretty strict behavior policies for all skaters on the ice, including coaches. There's even a line about not giving others dirty looks!
Any chance schmeck would be willing to post the language (without identifying details of course)? That would be really helpful. I happen to be in a rink where such a policy gets discussed, but not completed. Have you found the policy needs to be "implemented" a lot - or does its "existence" do the trick?
I also have come to agree with mel on ice that a degree, certification, etc. should be required - lots of time, the coaches spend more personal time with the kids than a schoolteacher does - and they need degrees, background checks, etc.

[kisscid]

This is a difficult subject. I don't agree that you should handle this. I would suggest telling your parent and let them talk to the skaters parent.

Well I am an adult skater. Hee Hee, I don't think my parents are going to help me with this one :). My biggest fear is the Parents. What If I mention that I don't think the coach is treating their child right. I could see them turning on me saying "don't give me parenting lessons, I know whats best for child." What if that parent thinks it's perfectly fine...they would think I was a huge interfearing jerk. Could make club meetings ugly.
Cid

[Schmeck]

I can't get the entire thing from our rink, since it is closed now, for major repairs :( but I do have this part from a contract my daughter and I both had to sign:

1. All individuals should be courteous, polite, and respectful toward other skaters, coaches, parents, and session proctors.

2. The skater wearing the colored vest has the right of way. Any skater who gets in the path of the skater must apologize at the end of the program.

3. Older skaters should set an example for the younger skaters. (My input - hopefully, it's a good example, LOL!)

The following will not be tolerated at any time:

No kicking the ice or the boards. No swearing. No stomping the ice. No throwing the vest. No unsportsman-like behavior on the ice (such as giving dirty looks, name calling or unacceptable remarks). No loitering along the boards.


Hope this helps - if you need info about the name of the club, who to contact if you need to about using this exact set of rules (do you? I'm not sure...) feel free to private message me!

Schmeck

[Chico]

Sorry! I don't know why I thought this. Yep, I can see your problem. As weird as it is some parents do seem to ignore this sort of thing. Heck, some parents are guilty. This is a touchy subject for an adult skater to bring up. Be careful and keep your thoughts open to ideas.

Chico

[Caro]

Oh i thought of another story about the "evil" coach i mentionned earlier. I didn't see this happen butsomeone told me about it.

One day the "evil" coach was teaching a student who had a rather feisty attitude. She's around 14 I think... Well anyway, one day this "evil" was grabbing her wrists and shoving her around (I don't know why). And apparently they started having a fight and then the "evil" coach really grabbed the girl hard, at the same time kind of pushing her. What does the festy little girl do? She slaps her! Ok this is probably not the way to go, but I thought it was kind of funny...

I don't remember who mentionned it earlier, but unfortunately this coach DOES have really good students and because she's pretty known in the city, I think that that is why some parents/students put up with it.

I agree that verbally abusive coaches should be reported. And definately definately they should be require to study child development/motivation/teaching. It would definately help!

[2sk8]

Thanks to Schmeck for the policy info. It's very helpful - but Chico & Caro bring out a good question. IF someone does step up and report the behavior, the question is to whom (PSA, USFS, the rink, club official, a local agency?) and there is no assurance anyone will really respond.

[Chico]

Okay, in the description described I would do something. I would get that child off the ice, contact the parent, and throw a fit to management. Nobody would physically hurt a child with me watching and have me do nothing. I feel very protective of the little dudes I skate with.

Chico

[twokidsskatemom]

Please, do intervene - get over being scared, and think of how you can help someone. What if you were the one being abused? Wouldn't you want someone to help you?

Luckily, our rink has some pretty strict behavior policies for all skaters on the ice, including coaches. There's even a line about not giving others dirty looks! I'd check with the rink management, just ask if you could have a copy of the policy that governs on-ice behavior of skaters. Most likely, if you are skating on contracted ice, you've already read and signed a copy.
hey Im so with you on this one, but i open my mouth about things like that.I speak out , even when others might not. Its just how i am.

[Mrs Redboots]

Mind you, it's not only parents who put up with abusive coaches - I've seen an adult being put down by her coach after skating less than her best; my husband said, at the time, "If that was my coach I'd not stay with him two minutes to be spoken to like that!" I rather agreed, and have always disliked that particular coach ever since (he doesn't teach at my rink, thankfully!).

On the other hand, some years ago now our rink was creamed at a 3-way match against two other rinks. One rink did especially well, and my coach at the time said that this was because they had very few coaches, so the skaters had to do as they were told, or else! Whereas, with a wider choice of coaches, you rather had to pander to the little dears or their parents would move them to someone who was "nicer" and didn't push them so hard - net result, skaters didn't know what was expected of them in competition, and came in last.

Mind you, the intelligent ones looked and learnt and copied their peers!

[twokidsskatemom]

Mind you, it's not only parents who put up with abusive coaches - I've seen an adult being put down by her coach after skating less than her best; my husband said, at the time, "If that was my coach I'd not stay with him two minutes to be spoken to like that!" I rather agreed, and have always disliked that particular coach ever since (he doesn't teach at my rink, thankfully!).

On the other hand, some years ago now our rink was creamed at a 3-way match against two other rinks. One rink did especially well, and my coach at the time said that this was because they had very few coaches, so the skaters had to do as they were told, or else! Whereas, with a wider choice of coaches, you rather had to pander to the little dears or their parents would move them to someone who was "nicer" and didn't push them so hard - net result, skaters didn't know what was expected of them in competition, and came in last.

Mind you, the intelligent ones looked and learnt and copied their peers!

I feel a coach can push without being verbally nasty to anyone.My dd coach told her a month ago she was going to push and be more serious this month as a usfsa comp is coming up.Now granted my dd is young, but she knows her coach just wants her to do well. as do all of us.She has no reason to raise her voice or yell to teach.

[Skatewind]

Informing rink management of the problem can often help. However, I would suggest doing so from the point of view that paying customers come to the rink to skate in a generally pleasant environment & the behavior being exhibited is very disruptive, inappropriate & disrespectful to all the skaters, rather than getting involved in the he saids/she saids of the individuals.

[IceAngel2007]

my former coach at jp igloo was totally mean to me, dshe always embarrassed me in front of all the little skaters who were more advanced than me! So I quit taking lessons! It definitely wasnt worth all that money to be yelled at!

[skatingatty]

Iceangel, did you find another coach then? I hope that rude coach didn't scare you away from skating altogether. As for my original post, I don't know who's out there reading my posts (could be the coaches I was writing about! :lol: ), so I don't want to comment further about the situation, except that in one case I did tell the kid's parent. In another case, I was so appalled that I told the skating director and was quickly told that it was the person's spouse! Hah! Good thing I hadn't said something like, "You should kick that coach out of the rink pronto!"

[2sk8]

Did anyone read Diana Ronayne’s “Coach to Coach Ethics” article in the July/August 2004 issue of “Professional Skater”? Or the article she references in the article; “Coach Fitz’s Management Theory”, Michael Lewis, New York Times Magazine, Mar. 28, 2004? (Unfortunately, I don’t think these articles are posted on line.) Now, I have nothing against Ms. Ronayne, don’t even know her, but I found these 2 articles left me thinking a lot about the comments in this thread & where we “draw the line” on abusive behaviors. One thing I concluded, is that it is important to focus on each behavior/incident – not the person; some acts by a coach can be OK & some can cross the line. Conclusions get muddled if it’s all lumped under “that’s the way he/she coaches”.
Coach Fitz is a baseball coach & criticized by some for being too rough on the kids (who are in high school). The PSA article talks a lot about Fitz’s actions, approach to discipline & how he tries to teach “life lessons” to “pampered kids” in an age of “affluence”. Many of Fitz’s coaching actions may well do that, and perhaps these are the ones that resonated with Ms. Ronayne when she wrote the article. (For example, much of the parental ado arose from Fitz making his players run after a bunch of them were caught drinking & lied about it. Personally, seems like an OK response to me too – but it wouldn’t have been if it had been on a 100 degree day with no water, for example.) The point of Ms. Ronayne’s article was really that coaching does involve caring about the development of the whole person, a conclusion I’m sure we all agree with.
My problem with it arose when she referenced other Fitz actions I had found troubling. For example, 1 night 25 years or so ago, Fitz had his players slide into 3rd base over & over, on a rocky, hard-packed dirt field. “There was blood, there were even tears.” Question – “Too tough?” The parents 25 years ago didn’t complain; I think it’s pretty certain they would now. The NYT article goes on to say that Fitz did not allow the kids to wash their bloody uniforms after this night until they won a game. Ms. R seemed to think this was a positive example of coaching because the NYT writer thought this moment helped shape his life.
I found I disagreed, and struggled to define why. I found other of Fitz’s actions – described in the NYT article, but not by Ms. R – similarly troubling. Fitz was described as someone who yelled & screamed a lot (less now, than in the past – perhaps he is learning?); as someone who loses his temper in front of the team & had thrown trophies across the room, broken various items, etc. So, looking at these actions, I concluded:
1. Discipline by a coach isn’t OK if it’s done in anger (screaming, yelling, swearing, etc. are not OK.) This isn’t OK for a parent, why should it be for a coach?
2. Physically violent behavior, throwing & breaking things out of anger, in front of kids just isn’t OK – ever.
2. It isn’t “discipline” if it will (intentionally or negligently) result in physical or emotional harm to a child. – So, intentionally having kids slide into a base until they are bleeding is not OK; it is OK to have them run but not if it’s so hot they are a t risk of heat stroke (negligent, etc.)
3. Emotional harm does include humiliating, ridiculing in front of others – it’s OK to work with a skater on getting them to lose weight if they need to, it’s probably not OK to do those weigh-ins some coaches do, resulting in young girls with eating disorders. (What of Fitz making the kids wear the bloody uniforms for a couple of weeks?)
4. And, yes, it does matter who is on the receiving end of the coach’s act/words. Some of the things Fitz did to high school kids may have been OK for kids that age, but if a coach did that to a 7- 10 year old, it could be abusive.
I’d be really interested in hearing others’ opinions if you read the articles or have thoughts about “where the line is drawn”.

[Ice_So]

skatingatty,

In your situation I would do absolutely nothing. I'm surprised no one pointed this out but coaches have different methods and depending on the student and their personality, you never really know what method they prefer. I'm sure many students (or parents) prefer that the coaches are stricter and tougher, they believe they learn better. All you have to do is looking at how Russian coaches work. Probably very strict, some yelling going on, but you look at the results of their students and you have World and Olympic Champions all over the place. This is not to say they teach better, but obviously they don't do everything wrong if many of their students succeed. It depends on the person.

I understand you're probably talking about American coaches and American students, where the relation seems to be viewed as employer/employee. Still, different people, different methods and I think interfering with that isn't really a good idea.

[WeBeEducated]

Intense dialogue sometimes motivates athletes, and it can be considered "screaming" but it can also be thought of as an urgent kind of encouragement.
You can scream without being angry. If a coach is yelling directions, or trying to jump start a skater who is having no luck with the jumps that day, it doesnt mean always that anger or humiliation are involved.
My skater prefers an intense coach that pushes mercilessly, as long as the dialogue isnt on a personal level but is related to specifics on the ice.But it can be loud, strict,etc., without being negative on a personal level.

[Perry]

Please, please intervene.

I took from a verbally abusive coach from age 4 to 11. Since she was my first (and only at the time) real coach, my parents had no idea it was out of thhe ordinary; they simply thought that it was just the strictness that the sport demanded. I've subconciouslyblocked most of those lessons out of my mind, but I remember one particular day, when I was about 10 or so, that it got so bad in the morning practice session, that my mom actually came to my elementary school because I was so upset.

I actually never dropped the coach; she dropped me. She used to continually threaten to drop her students, for some minor problem they had had, and the parents, would, of course, come begging for her to please, please keep them. It was the second time she had seriously done it, though she had threatened it at every lesson, and my mom, finally realizing that this wasn't how skating was supposed to be, simply refused to beg for her to keep me.

I got a new coach, and I, as well as my parents, finally realized that that's not how skating is supposed to be (though I've only recently come to terms with the fact that those years were, in fact, abuse). I realized that it's not me, since my new coach, who is far more reputable and in-demand than the old, loves me, and realizes that I work harder than really any one else at the rink. She screams too, but in a way that coaches should, in the middle of my program, to push, or at the end of a jump, to turn my foot out. She treats me with respect, and none of her comments are ever directed at me, just my skating.

That's how a coach should be, and it took the new coach for me to realize that it wasn't me. I still have things that remind me of those years -- I skated for a while at the rink where the old coach taught (and heard her, upon several occasions telling her students to eliberately get in my way), I always have to wear a knee pad on one spot on my right knee because, for a period of several months, I couldn't stand up on the field moves brakets because my blades were off centered, so she made me do them, and consequently fall, for two hours a day, and wore down the cartiledge, and recently, a young girl at the rink has decided to switch to my old coach.

She never seemed to be as bad with her other students. I don't know if it was because I was younger, or because I was more serious about the sport, or simply because I had lessons at 6 in the morning, when there were only two or three other people to witness, but I know she still abuses her students. Not as much as when she taught me, myabe, but it still goes on.

For a while, my mom wouldn't let me be in the same rink as her if she or my dad wasn't there, and, honestly, it still makes me nervous. Because of her, I developed in ability to confront authority. I have trouble asking my current coach if we can work on something specific, not because she would be angry, but because my old coach would enrage at such a suggestion, I have had three major injuries because I don't pay attention to pain, since my old coach wouldn't let me (and the most recent has ended my competitive career), and I'm only beginning to conquer my fear of confronting teachers on mistakes they've made in grading, teaching, or anything else.

The point I'm trying to make is, even when you get out of such a situation, it doesn't just go away. I had nightmares, I still have issues talking to authority, and, even though I've subconciously blocked out most of those memories, the few that I've been unable to erase still haunt me. But the sooner you get someone out, the fewer the lasting effects. I was with that coach for 7 years, because I didn't know, because my parents didn't realize, that it wasn't all normal, but other people shouldn't have to be.

It's your job, if you think something's amiss, to intervene, to talk to the parents. My parents, who knew the sport inside and out, who cared about me more than anything else, didn't see it; none of her students' parents saw it, they still don't see it. Kids won't speak up, because they, like me, are taught that they are the ones at fault, that they are being yelled at because they're not good enough. (Of course, every coach is going to yell; it's when the yelling's so deeply personal that it's abusive). If you truly believe that a coach is abusive, please, please, do all you can to stop it, and maybe even just one kid won't have to go through what I did.

[2sk8]

Your post really puts it out there clearly. Thanks for speaking up - that takes courage from someone who has been on the receiving end of such behavior. I hope it leads many others - skaters/parents/rink managers with coaches who behave this way - to act & make changes when they have been hesitant to do so!