basic skating skills

[evereg]

I think that I have said this before - I am not a skater. Therefore, I have a question for all you skaters. Can somebody explain to me what constitutes good basic skating skills? I have read on numerous occasions that Joannie Rochette and Yuka Sato both have excellent basic skating skills. On the other hand, I remember Barb Underhill saying that if she was Surya Bonaly’s coach; she would take Surya back to the basics and work on her stroking and other basic skills. So, what is the difference between someone like Yuka and Surya? Why do some top-level skaters have better basic skills then others? Is it coaching or just plain natural talent?

Thank you,

[Lurking Skater]

To me basic skills are edges, stroking, crossovers, mowhawks, 3-turns, brackets, choctaws, rockers and counters. When a skater has these moves solid, they look smoother and the skating looks secure and effortless. On a move like crossovers, you can use less energy and accelerate faster if you do them correctly (taking advantage of both pushes, keeping your weight over the correct part of your blade). For instance, when I started skating, it took me about 10 pushes to get down the length of the rink and about 5 crossovers to get around the ends. Now, I take 6 pushes and 3 crossovers.

I think it's coaching more than anything. If your coach is a stickler for those basics, you'll develop good habits that will stick with you. If your coach pushes you through the level and doesn't worry about the little flaws, you'll probably have bad habits that stcik with you. Part of it is probably the skater, too. If you're patient and work hard on the basic skills, you'll be better off.

Hopefully this helped a little. :)

[icenut84]

Lurking Skater is right. Surya & Yuka are probably good examples to compare. Have you got a tape of them skating as eligibles?

If you watch Surya's stroking (skating), each stroke is very short. She doesn't hold the landing edge on any of her jumps, she hops out of it instead. Her edges are not that deep and often don't look very solid - e.g. sometimes when she goes into a spiral, it's a very jerky movement and she doesn't hold it for long. Her footwork sequences are also very simplistic and uncomplicated.

In contrast, Yuka's skating is of very high quality. Her footwork sequences are difficult and well controlled, using lots of edge turns and moving in different directions. Her edges are also deeper and much more solid than Surya's. Her blades don't create snow.

Disclaimer - I haven't seen Surya's skating post-98 Olympics, and some say she's improved a lot :)

[evereg]

If you watch Surya's stroking (skating), each stroke is very short. She doesn't hold the landing edge on any of her jumps, she hops out of it instead. Her edges are not that deep and often don't look very solid - e.g. sometimes when she goes into a spiral, it's a very jerky movement and she doesn't hold it for long. Her footwork sequences are also very simplistic and uncomplicated.

In contrast, Yuka's skating is of very high quality. Her footwork sequences are difficult and well controlled, using lots of edge turns and moving in different directions. Her edges are also deeper and much more solid than Surya's. Her blades don't create snow.

Disclaimer - I haven't seen Surya's skating post-98 Olympics, and some say she's improved a lot :)Thank you both Icenut and Lurker. Your explanations are great! Is basic skating one of the reason why Surya placed 2nd to Yuka in '94?

[Isk8NYC]

Is basic skating one of the reason why Surya placed 2nd to Yuka in '94?It's part of the reason for her 2nd place. Demonstrated control and style does tie into every element's "grade." Just as in Diving, every jump and spin has a "technical difficulty" mark. Surya performs very difficult moves, but the choppy edges and quick finishes distract from the overall performance.

Here's a recently published an interview where Surya discussed her competitive career. It was very candid.

http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/articles/2004/04/02/positive_spin/


(Revised link to original source)

[flippet]

That link only goes to Brennan's most recent column. Any idea what date the Surya story is? Or where else it might be located?

[icenut84]

Is basic skating one of the reason why Surya placed 2nd to Yuka in '94?

I haven't watched that competition for ages but I believe so, yes. I think it was also one of the reasons Surya placed second to Oksana Baiul in 93 Worlds, despite Surya having more difficult jump combos etc - Oksana's quality of skating was much superior. I think Surya's lack of basic technique held her back a lot, and the quality of her programmes too - they tended to often be jump-jump-jump, with crossovers.

As for how you learn it, it is largely down to coaching, yes. Obviously natural talent etc comes into it, but good basic skating skills take a lot of time and effort to develop. The will be a noticeable difference between a skater who spends time working on their basic skills, edges and stroking (and maybe figures), and someone who does minimal work in this area and instead spends almost all their training time working on the jumps, etc.

[evereg]

As for how you learn it, it is largely down to coaching, yes. Obviously natural talent etc comes into it, but good basic skating skills take a lot of time and effort to develop. The will be a noticeable difference between a skater who spends time working on their basic skills, edges and stroking (and maybe figures), and someone who does minimal work in this area and instead spends almost all their training time working on the jumps, etc.Hmm interesting. Timothy Goebel (sp.) comes to mind. So, that begs the questions, why wouldn’t the coach of a "world class" skater stress both basic skating techniques along with jump technique? Their skater would be further ahead in the end.

On the same vain, I am perplexed why more coaches are not like Joannie Rochette’s and have their skater relearn a jump entry to ensure that they are using proper technique.

[Isk8NYC]

That link only goes to Brennan's most recent column. Any idea what date the Surya story is? Or where else it might be located?
I updated my original message. Here's the link:

http://www.boston.com/sports/other_sports/articles/2004/04/02/positive_spin/

[kermit]

I have heard skaters described as "scratchy".

I'm still fairly new to skating, so was wondering what is meant by this term.

Does it mean that the blades are loud when they skate? Short stroking? Lots of toe picks?

Just curious. Can someone please explain to me? Thanks.

[sk8er1964]

I have heard skaters described as "scratchy".

I'm still fairly new to skating, so was wondering what is meant by this term.

Does it mean that the blades are loud when they skate? Short stroking? Lots of toe picks?

Just curious. Can someone please explain to me? Thanks.

It means that instead of being secure on the correct part of the blade, they are skating on the forward part and scratching the toepicks. On backwards crossovers, for instance, there should not be any scratching sound from the toepicks - just a kind of crunching sound as the blade cuts into the ice.

[hebequeen]

On the same vain, I am perplexed why more coaches are not like Joannie Rochette’s and have their skater relearn a jump entry to ensure that they are using proper technique.
Because Rochette's coach has vision! She knows that Joannie is a champion material and when she becomes one, she'll be one with perfect techniques! Unlike several Olys winners and world medal holders!

[CanAmSk8ter]

Hmm interesting. Timothy Goebel (sp.) comes to mind. So, that begs the questions, why wouldn’t the coach of a "world class" skater stress both basic skating techniques along with jump technique? Their skater would be further ahead in the end.

On the same vain, I am perplexed why more coaches are not like Joannie Rochette’s and have their skater relearn a jump entry to ensure that they are using proper technique.

To answer your first question, some coaches really believe that the jumps are more important. On a superficial level, they appear to be what the judges reward, so some coaches think that *ok* stroking is good enough if so-and-so has all the jumps the other skaters at her level have. Sometimes it works that way- I'm sure there are judges who look at jumps and not much else when scoring- but most of the time the best skaters at a given level are the ones with all the jumps AND good basics.

As far as the second question, relearning jump technique is just plain HARD. It can take months, and in the meantime the jump may disappear- and it may or may not come back. It may well be easier to change the jump technique of a Juvenile skater, who's only been doing jumps the old way for five or six years, than a Senior who's been doing jumps the old way for a decade or more. That's why it's so important to learn good technique from the beginning.

[evereg]

As far as the second question, relearning jump technique is just plain HARD. It can take months, and in the meantime the jump may disappear- and it may or may not come back. It may well be easier to change the jump technique of a Juvenile skater, who's only been doing jumps the old way for five or six years, than a Senior who's been doing jumps the old way for a decade or more. That's why it's so important to learn good technique from the beginning.Thank you, I can understand that, but that begs the question of why so many skaters are not learning good technique at the beginning. Coaching problems again? I find it interesting that many American girls have problems with their Lutz. (Something that I can recognise - btw.) It is a general coaching trend that pushes them to do the jumps early without stressing the proper technique?

[Schmeck]

Well, when there appears to be no "penalty" for doing a flutz, or a flatz (a lutz that takes off on a flat) why would anyone do a much harder, yet clean, true lutz? My daughter is working on her single lutz right now - she's really trying to keep that deep outside edge, maybe only because I'm always pointing out triple flutzes to her on TV!

[Mrs Redboots]

And sometimes it's parents - if Mrs Bloggs' Jemima has been skating for six months and is already doing a loop jump, then Mrs Pooperak wants Polly to learn one too, even though Polly is not nearly ready.... and the coaches want to keep their pupils ("It's so much easier," sighed my coach once, "if there are only a couple of coaches at a rink, when you can tell the parents to take it or leave it!").

[evereg]

And sometimes it's parents - if Mrs Bloggs' Jemima has been skating for six months and is already doing a loop jump, then Mrs Pooperak wants Polly to learn one too, even though Polly is not nearly ready.... and the coaches want to keep their pupils ("It's so much easier," sighed my coach once, "if there are only a couple of coaches at a rink, when you can tell the parents to take it or leave it!").I am not around rinks to watch coach, skater and parent dynamics. However, I would not be surprised if some skating parents are as bad as some hockey parents are.* It is sad how some parents do not realise what a negative effect this kind of behaviour can have on their children’s development. (edited to add some)

* As a footnote - In Canada right now, there is a national advertising campaign aimed at hockey parents. The gist is "hockey is just a game – calm down parents".

[icenut84]

Hmm interesting. Timothy Goebel (sp.) comes to mind. So, that begs the questions, why wouldn’t the coach of a "world class" skater stress both basic skating techniques along with jump technique? Their skater would be further ahead in the end.

True. Ideally, basic skills etc should always be worked on - there isn't a time when you, e.g. learn crossovers and then go onto the next thing. You should be always working to improve. If you take an example of Michelle Kwan - she's a skater with great basic skills and technique (minus a couple of things, like the flutz - I'm talking stroking technique etc). I believe she also used to do figures (which I guess a lot of skaters wouldn't do any more, since they were eliminated from competition), and figures were definitely an asset to edges, form, and control. Because she has this strong base, you're right that she is further ahead in the field - so even when she has a less technically demanding programme than a competitor, she often comes out on top anyway.

The thing with basic skills though is, like I said, it takes a long time and a lot of effort and practice. And, really, you can never stop improving. And if a skater or coach or parent is concerned only or mainly with the jumps (because they often appear to be what is rewarded most), then this side of skating and technique will likely be neglected in favour of jumps.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Thank you, I can understand that, but that begs the question of why so many skaters are not learning good technique at the beginning. Coaching problems again? I find it interesting that many American girls have problems with their Lutz. (Something that I can recognise - btw.) It is a general coaching trend that pushes them to do the jumps early without stressing the proper technique?

That I can't answer. When I teach the classes for Freestyle 4 and 5 where they start the Lutz, I get out and show them a flutz and then a lutz and ask them to tell me why the two were different. Usually none of them can. I really pound it into them that a Lutz has to take off from an outside edge, and I usually add that some judges won't consider a flutz to be a lutz- that if they flutz, they won't get credit for their lutz as a required element. I know the judges who actually do that are few, but it does seem to motivate them to do it correctly.

On another note, I had all kinds of problems with my lutz when I was skating singles, but the one thing I never did wrong was flutz. That's probably the only aspect of the jump that I never had trouble with, but it was always off an outside edge, and that's because the coach that taught it to me in the first place really emphasized that. I remember her making me go back to doing half lutzes, presumably to make sure I was going in on an outside edge. So it definitely is possible to correct a flutz early on.

[dbny]

Thank you, I can understand that, but that begs the question of why so many skaters are not learning good technique at the beginning. Coaching problems again? I find it interesting that many American girls have problems with their Lutz. (Something that I can recognise - btw.) It is a general coaching trend that pushes them to do the jumps early without stressing the proper technique?
Since the parents and coaches have already been blamed for deficits in basic skating skills, I would like to add the skaters themselves. This is from personal experience. There are some kids who just won't listen. My daughter would have quit skating if her two coaches had not agreed to teach her an Axel. She wanted that jump long before she was ready. I did not know any better myself, at that time, but did know that her interest in skating extended only to jumps and spins. Her skating cleaned up later, but if a skater does not have the desire and the patience to work on the details of their basic skating when their coach tells them to, they are not going to improve those details. Even elite skaters still work on their crossovers!

[sk8er1964]

* As a footnote - In Canada right now, there is a national advertising campaign aimed at hockey parents. The gist is "hockey is just a game – calm down parents".

Off topic: USA Hockey makes parents sign a form each season stating that we understand that this is just a game, and that we won't get in the face of the officials, coaches and other parents. Pretty sad that it has come to this, hunh?

OK, back on topic:

When I was working on my Intermediate moves, I skated after a meeting at a rink where nobody knew me. One of the coaches there saw me working on them, and commented that I must have done figures as a kid (I did, but didn't get too far in them). She said the edge security really shows in the MIF's when figures were also done.

[twokidsskatemom]

And sometimes it's parents - if Mrs Bloggs' Jemima has been skating for six months and is already doing a loop jump, then Mrs Pooperak wants Polly to learn one too, even though Polly is not nearly ready.... and the coaches want to keep their pupils ("It's so much easier," sighed my coach once, "if there are only a couple of coaches at a rink, when you can tell the parents to take it or leave it!").
that is interesting, as we dont have a ton of coaches here.we havent been in long enough to see alot of that yet. :)

[SkateGuard]

If you take an example of Michelle Kwan - she's a skater with great basic skills and technique (minus a couple of things, like the flutz - I'm talking stroking technique etc). I believe she also used to do figures (which I guess a lot of skaters wouldn't do any more, since they were eliminated from competition), and figures were definitely an asset to edges, form, and control.

Well, Michelle was what, a juvenile in 1990? She passed her Senior free in 1993, years before all of her competition in the US. (Cohen and Kirk were juniors in 1999-2000.) She's probably the only Senior lady in the US who has a scribe!

If you want to understand basic skills, I highly recommend: 1) take skating lessons 2) go to your local ice rink and watch lower-level skaters. I knew that Bonaly had problems in '94, but when I started skating in '97, I got what everyone was talking about. For example, I remember her crossovers not having a second push: If you watch Kwan, Eldredge, etc. you will notice that on the crossover, they push twice: once before the cross and again with the back foot.

Erin
who saw a scribe for the first time today!

[Chico]

I do think a coach has a huge input on what a student focuses on. As a student you rely on your coach to direct you. If you knew everything you wouldn't need them! Some coaches do seem to focus on the tricks, others on the whole package which includes good basic skills. Saying that, I do think you need to learn the "two" combined. Moves are the vegetables of skating, and not always "fun". Spins and jumps are the treat. You need a little of both to be well rounded and have fun. I also think that moves are a process and improve in little steps and spurts. It would be upsetting to stop working on or learning new spins and jumps. New, is what makes skating fun and challenging.

Chico

[dooobedooo]

Then there are things like turnout (of the free leg), good extension (of the free leg, pointing your toes, bending your knees, good deportment including keeping chin up and arms elegantly extended ... etc.

[loveskating]

Aside from the proper techniques and proper process of mastery that people have mentioned, I believe that some people are simply possessed of a natural ability to balance on the blade that, given proper teaching overall, enables them to have noticibly superior edging. This would be the case with skaters like Gordeeva & Grinkov.

In speaking of Alexander Abt, Dick Button said, "Great edging can be seen in the complete lack of resistance of the body to the blade." Its in the result, not the depth of the edges themselves, and the result is high speed with great posture, the ability to accellerate on the blade and gain speed rather than losing it outside of crossovers.

[dbny]

Aside from the proper techniques and proper process of mastery that people have mentioned, I believe that some people are simply possessed of a natural ability to balance on the blade that, given proper teaching overall, enables them to have noticibly superior edging. This would be the case with skaters like Gordeeva & Grinkov.


IMO, all of the elite skaters have what I call "perfect balance". I teach beginners, and can tell almost from the first time a student gets on the ice if they have superior balance. My own husband is a case in point. He had never skated until the age of 19, and then only a few times. I had him start skating seriously three years ago (at the age of 50), and except for a few lapses of form, he looks like he has skated his whole life. The kids who have half a chance of getting to the elite levels stand out immediately, and part of that is their perfect balance. I think the difference in basics among the elites is a matter of coaching, listening, understanding, and work.

[passion]

Interesting that Yuka Sato's name was mentioned. She was my role model when I first started skating and she still remains my favourite number one skater. She is a strong skater; a skater with excellent basic skills. That means deep edges, power, speed, effortless flow. She has very strong core abdominal strength and it shows in her skating. She is also an overall, whole package skater. By that, I mean her spins are fast, centred, excellent positions. Her jump technique is near perfect (I love her triple loop and double axel). Extensive footwork of excellent quality joins one element to the next making her skating very interesting to watch. She is very musical - ie. skates with the music and feels the music from within. She has excellent presentation - ie. she knows how to hold her body, head, eyes, arms, energy runs out her fingertips. Every movement she does has meaning. And as I said before, she has incredible speed, power, deep edges, and effortless flow to her skating. She has everthing that I strive for.

[Chico]

Yuko Sato is one of my favorite skaters too.

Chico