Kwan shrugs about historic achievements [Archive]

hiliairyh

03-12-2004, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Italiano
This does not mean I think she is a great skater.

This is a free country, and we are all entitled to our opinion, but I think it is the opinion of the judges and the hall of fame voting committee that counts.

It is Michelle's fans that I find curious. Tearing down Sasha signs at arenas, ect.

Are you assuming those were Michelle fans? Did they have a sign in their t shirts or on their foreheads? Could they be workers in the arena? I see workers taking down signs all the time, e.g. one time I saw Yoshie signs being taken down, but I did not automatically assume that they are Fumie fans. To think about it I have seen people taking down Michelle signs too, and I am not assuming they are fans of any other skaters, I just thought they are arena officials.

They seem the ones who want to drag all her medals out.

What do you mean by that, Michelle's medals are safe in her keeping, I seriously doubted her fans are going to break into her house and drag her medals out.

I'm guessing because she does not have Olympic gold?
That is right she does not have an Olympic gold, and she wants to be Olympic champion, so that is one thing she wants. Many others skaters don't have national gold or world gold or even world medals, so I guess they are wannabes in all of the above. Actually some of them had publicly stated that they want to have Michelle and Sarah's success.

no reason for their continuel odd behavior which is very cult like in manner. If I were Michelle, they would frighten me.

I am sure there are cult like manner in fans of all skaters, but so far what you have listed is not in any way convincing at all that thsoe were cult like behavior.

hiliairyh

03-12-2004, 12:56 AM

I already said, MK wants to look into the future. Looking into the future and not dwelling in the past is not "judge by each single event"

We have a difference of opinion here, you don't have to be insulting.

adrianchew

03-12-2004, 01:38 AM

Anyone who thinks MK fans are non cult-like is in serious denial and needs to pay a visit to MKF where there has been discussions about the behavior of MK fans at US Nationals this year. Even MK herself has hinted on TV about how her fans seem to follow her every move that her agent can figure out what she's doing by just visiting her fan forum on the Internet.

Italiano

03-12-2004, 02:09 AM

Yes, the fans tearing down Sasha signs are MK fans, with shirts, signs, banners, pompoms- ect. They behave this way at every event. I've been to many. At Nationals, security was called on them. The statement about dragging out all MK's medals, I was refering to the fact that her fans continuely mention them and list them as if that is going to belay the fact that after two Olympic games, she has no gold Olympic medal. This is not a slur, just a fact. Michelle never mentions her medals but her cultish fans do. This is I think because they think if they mention her medals long enough they will all morph into Olympic gold. It doesn't work that way.

nyskatefan

03-12-2004, 06:36 AM

I will tell you all something about Atlanta Nationals, and the "supposed" bad behavior of MK fans. It absolutely did not happen the way some people have reported. I was there ... the entire time ... and witnessed very little of all this nonsense. Unfortunately, there seemed to be great delight by some people to run with this story, without any first hand knowledge of what really occurred.

And as far as cult-like behavior at MKF ... I won't deny there are probably some, but they exist everywhere. They are just more evident at MKF because of the size of that board. So go ahead and trash MKF, if that's what floats your boat.

Kabooke

03-12-2004, 07:18 AM

Oh lord!:??

I'm sorry I posted it
in the first place!

When will the day come when you can read a very well done article
without talons beign drawn out each and every time? From both sides!

I guess it'll only happen
years after she's
hung it up!

Also, Adrian,
I resent your blanket statements!
Yes, some Kwan fans are like that as well as other
athlete's fans! You can say what you will but don't lump
everyone together, please!

Thank You.

Kemy

03-12-2004, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Italiano
Yes, the fans tearing down Sasha signs are MK fans, with shirts, signs, banners, pompoms- ect.

These people were told to take down most of the banners by security. they even had to tear down their own, according to reports. Also, as a Michelle fan (and a Sasha fan as well, but still...) I think it's not fair to group the ALL of Michelle's fans together. There are many who do tear down others to raise their own skater, but there are also a great many who do not. Every skater has a cult following, but Michelle has been around far longer than most skaters and the cult following has grown larger than most.

Trillian

03-12-2004, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by Kemy
Also, as a Michelle fan (and a Sasha fan, but as well still...) I think it's not fair to group the ALL of Michelle's fans together.

Really. I've been a Kwan fan for ten years--I do find the behavior of some of her other fans pretty obnoxious, but it also bothers me that I have to worry that if I mention that I like her skating, people will assume that I'm one of those people. And the fact that I don't get particularly excited about Sasha's skating just adds to it--which is ridiculous, because I've felt exactly the same way about Sasha's skating since long before she ever competed against Kwan, when she was still at the junior level. I respect her plenty, she just doesn't do anything for me. Too bad so many fans of one skater can't be respectful of the other.

Incidentally, Kwan isn't the only skater with an extreme following. Considering I've heard stories about Sasha and her friends being weirded out at a few events by the behavior of certain fans (who also have an online presence), I find some of the comments on this thread really ironic.

Samskate

03-12-2004, 08:56 AM

I'm a Kwan fan, but that doesn't mean I should be put in the same category with those who behave in a "cult" manner. I also do not bash other skaters, whether I like them or not, so don't lump everyone together in a statement about fans. I really don't understand the mentality that makes people tear down one skater to make themselves feel better about their favorite or justify why that skater is their favorite. Wouldn't a simple statement like "I'm not particularly a fan of his/hers" suffice?:)

Samskate

03-12-2004, 10:18 AM

Bondo, it also seems too simplistic to refer to all Kwan fans as cultists. And I'm not assuming the only reason someone criticizes a skater is to make them feel better about another. Criticism is one thing; bashing and making nasty statements about a person, either a skater, or a fellow board member, is something else again. I still think a simple statement as to whether a person likes a skater or not should be enough to let others know how you feel. It isn't necessary to make snide or insulting comments. Let's face it; all skaters want to do their best and some are better at certain things than others. And everyone doesn't like the same things or people. That's part of what makes everyone individuals.;)

Kemy

03-12-2004, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Bondo
Samskate, it seems a bit simplistic to assume that if someone criticizes a skater that they are doing it to feel better about another. Personally, my view of every skater is separate from all others, based solely on that skater. It is only natural that people will like some skaters and not care for others.

When I mentioned those people who bring down a rival skater to make themselves feel better, I wasn't referring to everyone who ever criticizes a skater. Just the ones who do it for the reason I listed above...because they feel the need to bring everyone else down to make it seem like their own favorite is heads and shoulders above everyone else, when they're not THAT much ahead. Those are the cultish fans out there that tend to give bad impressions of fans...

Let's face it...the freaky fans are the ones that get noticed. The nice normal fans here that just come to talk about skating and debate a bit get caught up in the uber-fan fight a lot of the time. I guess we can just get referred to as "casualities of war", eh?

loveskating

03-12-2004, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by hiliairyh
Bondo

Bondo, reading Michelle's mind again? There is nothing for Michlle to prove per event or collectively.

All the rough stuff started in this thread right here...Bondo didn't say ANYTHING out of hand, in fact, he said MK was right to approach each event for its own sake....and then he got totally attacked in a personal way for it.

IMHO it IS just plain good sense for each skater to approach each competition and event for its own sake..."you are only as good as your last peformance" said Luciano Pavarotti!

And I agree with Bondo, whether she can up the level of her skating is another question, and we will just have to wait and see on that.

Italiano

03-12-2004, 03:08 PM

Yes security was called at a practice session on a group of out of control MK fans. They also made themselves obnoxious at the events themselves. Next time they will be captured on film so they won't be able to deny it. Sam, nobody is saying all MK fans are cultish. Most people know who we are refering to. A large group from another board who have made Michelle into some kind of God. It's scary and even Michelle mentioned it in her interview. Re- Adrian's post.

nyskatefan

03-12-2004, 04:19 PM

Italiano ... I was at every MK practice that week ... and in as much as the arena was not very full, it would have been very evident if people had been asked to leave for unruly behavior. I didn't see it ... I know it keeps getting referred to (not just on this board BTW) ... and I keep asking what were the people doing who were out of control. Nobody can really give an answer ... they just keep repeating what they've heard. Noone seems to have any real details about what went on. I have heard siily things about people cheering too loud (?) and the ever lasting signs being torn down story. You may not want to believe me, but I am being honest when I tell you that I was with a good size group from MKF that day ... all who I know personally. Noone was even so much as spoken to by security ... except one person who was tossing candy down to the skaters in the tunnel. She was asked to stop and did ... there was never another word about it. All this bad behavior talk seems to keep making the rounds, without any specifics to back it up. If you know of some, please feel free to let me know.

peaches

03-12-2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by nyskatefan
Italiano ... I was at every MK practice that week ... and in as much as the arena was not very full, it would have been very evident if people had been asked to leave for unruly behavior. I didn't see it ... I know it keeps getting referred to (not just on this board BTW) ... and I keep asking what were the people doing who were out of control. Nobody can really give an answer ... they just keep repeating what they've heard. Noone seems to have any real details about what went on. I have heard siily things about people cheering too loud (?) and the ever lasting signs being torn down story. You may not want to believe me, but I am being honest when I tell you that I was with a good size group from MKF that day ... all who I know personally. Noone was even so much as spoken to by security ... except one person who was tossing candy down to the skaters in the tunnel. She was asked to stop and did ... there was never another word about it. All this bad behavior talk seems to keep making the rounds, without any specifics to back it up. If you know of some, please feel free to let me know.

A lot of things went on that no one wants to admit to. I spelled it all out on the MKF and was promptly called a troll by a moderator there. They don't want facts. They didn't want proof. They just wanted to go on their merry little kwantastic way. Some members were questioning some of the behaviour at one point, and they were slapped down for turning on the group. Never mind one of their own members was sending emails threatening me and Sasha Cohen with bodily harm. Not pretty. Those uber fans were watched at Nationals, and not just in a random way either. A lot more went on behind the scenes than you might think.

The uberKwanatics were notorious before they even arrived in Atlanta for using their "relationship" (read: donation of a platinum medal to Michelle) with Michelle to get their way in a matter of security.

They were asked to remove their signs that *blocked the view from the VIP seats*. They just don't think!

A member of the LOC had to get on the phone to make sure that the Olympic rings that were on one MKF sign weren't in violation of a copyright or trademark - a person that didn't need fans putting somethign else on the plate for that day, there was already enough going on.

A friend on mine put up Sasha signs and they mysteriously disappeared. Arena employees? Probably not. At least they said they weren't the ones that did it. I know the GMs of the arenas and they'd have told me if that was the case.

They were loud. Across the arena loud. And yes, it was the MKFers because tons of them would congregate in one section.

Some of the behaviour was plain annoying, and some of it was downright obnoxious as hell. I lost respect for them when they used the medal to get what they wanted. Shame on them for being jerks and on the LOC for caving in to a bunch of overweight, middle-aged, entitlement minded fans!

There was a lot more related to that cult of fans, but I'll just leave it at what I've posted already. They're nuts.

nyskatefan

03-12-2004, 04:56 PM

I've read all that on MKF. I can't speak to the email threats, except to say that if whoever sent them could be indentified, they should get what's coming to them. That is unacceptable.

As to the other stuff ... I have no doubt that a great deal went on behind the scenes. I have heard people were being watched ... presumably in the group I was in. But ... yet again I say ... not one of us was spoken to or asked to leave ... nothing. I would have to conclude that the secret police did not find that the behaviour warranted any action. Otherwise ... why weren't we given the heave ho? Or at the very least, asked to cease whatever it was we were doing that was causing so much havoc.

peaches

03-12-2004, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by nyskatefan
I've read all that on MKF. I can't speak to the email threats, except to say that if whoever sent them could be indentified, they should get what's coming to them. That is unacceptable.

As to the other stuff ... I have no doubt that a great deal went on behind the scenes. I have heard people were being watched ... presumably in the group I was in. But ... yet again I say ... not one of us was spoken to or asked to leave ... nothing. I would have to conclude that the secret police did not find that the behaviour warranted any action. Otherwise ... why weren't we given the heave ho? Or at the very least, asked to cease whatever it was we were doing that was causing so much havoc.

Like I said, some just won't come out and admit what went on. There were things that were handled privately. If you know nothing of them then you weren't involved and have nothing to worry about. ;)

The MKF owners aren't interested in handling any of it and I'm sure they'll just continue to wreak havoc on other LOCs in the future. Like I said, they're nuts. They fail to realize that the behaviour of a relative few is making all MK fans look bananas. Some tried to speak out about it, but they were shot down. It's sad when people on the inside of a group realize that there's something wrong, but no one will listen. :(

loveskating

03-12-2004, 05:17 PM

I think filming the cultists is a great idea.

I wish I could have filmed the 15-20 Kwan cultists sitting behind me at Campbells who had the unmitigated gall to actually boo in chorus when Sasha Cohen took the ice!

Thankfully, the cheers for her, which equalled those for MK, were so loud that I don't think Sasha heard them.

Of course, some people say I am lieing, but I am not lieing. I could not even dream up such an outrageous thing...I myself have never in my life booed ANY skater, not even Candeloro when he took his frigging clothes off at COI, which was the ONLY time I even felt like booing a skater.

Furthermore, the two ladies who sat next to me promptly informed me that they thought Sasha COhen was a "snot". After gulping in total shock, I replied to them that she was my favorite, and not a "snot" at all, and I wondered why God chose to put us together for this night. They were not just "for" Michelle, which I could respect, but they were calling Sasha names and insulting her...and they also just assumed that would be ok with me, a total stranger!!!!

And no, I did nothing to provoke them, just asked them who they were rooting for....and all this came out!

peaches

03-12-2004, 05:24 PM

loveskating, I can relate. At Nats two women asked me if I thought Sasha would have more fans if she had bigger boobs and looked more like a woman. As if having big boobs makes someone a woman. Guess they didn't notice Jenny is just as flat and Michelle is not far behind. None of the ladies have big ones, save Vika.

I was also asked who I thought would win and when I said Michelle, the person snickered and asked me if that's because Sasha always falls. These people didn't know me from Adam and I'd made no mention of having any favourite skater, they just didn't like Sasha. 8O

I was a little shocked to see total strangers saying some of the things they did. It was really disheartening to see only fans of a skater, not fans of skating. That's their choice, but I think they'd enjoy more if they gave some credit to someone other than the holy Kwan. All the skaters work hard, why can't they be recognized instead of being torn down?

Editing to say I do intend to film the next time I see the kinds of crap that went on at Nats. It's skating, not a rodeo, not a reunion.

turtlehead

03-12-2004, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by peaches
Like I said, some just won't come out and admit what went on. There were things that were handled privately. If you know nothing of them then you weren't involved and have nothing to worry about. ;)

The MKF owners aren't interested in handling any of it and I'm sure they'll just continue to wreak havoc on other LOCs in the future. Like I said, they're nuts. They fail to realize that the behaviour of a relative few is making all MK fans look bananas. Some tried to speak out about it, but they were shot down. It's sad when people on the inside of a group realize that there's something wrong, but no one will listen. :(

I am just curious...how exactly should the owners of MKF handle this situation? What would be the ideal way? by banning thses members for behavior outside of the MKF? Doesn't seem sane to ban someone for real-life activities. Or perhaps they could tell them to not represent MKF in such a way? Wouldn't prevent them from still acting obsessed and obnoxious at events. I guess I just don't see how it's up to the owners of MKF to control fan behavior. I can see them telling them to stop it, but nobody there has to listen. I am sure most of them are grown-ups. MKF is an internet forum...how do you control the behavior of adults you don't even know? And in real life? They can control how they behave on the internet (which they grossly neglect), but I think it's out of the realm of possibilities to control behavior of these people in real life. I just don't think it's realistic to think it can be done by the owners of the MKF.

Italiano

03-12-2004, 05:50 PM

No, it is not impossible to stop their insane behavior. They are about to find out at Worlds.:roll:

turtlehead

03-12-2004, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Italiano
No, it is not impossible to stop their insane behavior. They are about to find out at Worlds.

Prehaps you should re-read what I wrote, and perhaps this time you will understand it. I said it's impossible for the OWNERS to control it. Not that it is impossible period! The owners have no control over these strange people in real life. And maybe having a big production with security is the reality check these people need!

Italiano

03-12-2004, 06:07 PM

:roll: The two owners one of who is not active now, have done nothing so far. Since these lunitic fans are representing their board at these events with signs, posters, ect; you would think that the MKF owners would have a vested interest in their uber fans behavior at all events. But no, they have not posted any messages about not acting like total idiots and ruining everyone elses evening. As it stands now, they have put a ban on even discussing the problem. I'm not a member of that board but am interested in this arena problem so I thought they would at least admit there was a problem. I went to check it out and according to these fans, nothing ever happened and they won't talk about it, and have been forbidden to talk about it on that board by a moderator who has banned all thread discussion on the subject. Quite unbelieveable but true none the less.

hiliairyh

03-12-2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Italiano
No, it is not impossible to stop their insane behavior. They are about to find out at Worlds.:roll:

Hmm.. interesting, so what are your plans for worlds, now I am really curious?

turtlehead

03-12-2004, 06:20 PM

It is rather pathetic that they think they did nothing out of the ordinary and wrong. It seems to me that the whole online skating board community would not be discussing it and have first-hand knowledge of it had nothing really occured. And I agree that the owners should adress it. But I also think that it would do little to change the uber-fan behavior. So I say let security deal with them and "ruin" their world's experience. They seem to have ruined Nationals for some people. Perhaps then they would re-think their actions!

IgglesII

03-12-2004, 07:08 PM

You want true insanity? Visit this site:

http://www.livejournal.com

Search for the name of any fairly well known skater you can think of - perhaps even a few who aren't well known.

There are people out there who are writing blogs while PRETENDING to be well known skaters. Writing as if they are actually the skater themselves - and these blogs are out there for anyone to see.

A few have disclaimers that state they are not actually the person they are pretending to be, but just as many do not carry said disclaimer.

Italiano

03-12-2004, 07:51 PM

I do not blame Michelle for the idiotic behavior over at MKF but have wondered in the past why she didn't just contact the board owner and ask her to shut it down. I suppose you can't do this but it's a thought. These fans, I believe to be so far out that at some near future time, they could be considered dangerous. Im talking about their behavior at all skating events. They really have their head in the sand if they don't think people are noticing and talking about this subject. I'm quite sure this has become a concern for Michelle and her security staff.

sk8cynic

03-12-2004, 08:23 PM

IIRC, the word Michelle used in an interview in a Florida newspaper to describe some of the fan behavior was "creepy."

At Nats I was seated two empty seats away from a Kwan fan (best I know she was NOT affiliated with MKF), who got in my face because I held up a sign for Sasha after she skated her SP. She asked me if I was a fan of Sasha's. I told her I was a fan of both Michelle and Sasha but preferred Sasha's style of skating. The woman blocked my way out of the aisle and wanted to argue about it.

During the next group of skaters, this woman kept saying loudly (to the point of people sitting three rows in front of her turning around and staring) stuff like "That's just like Michelle's!!" "That's a Michelle move!" etc. When Jenny Don skated her SP, it came to a head when she kept saying (on the verge of yelling) "She's been studying Michelle" and when Jenny did a Spread Eagle, the woman practically shouted "She stole that from Michelle!!" :roll: The guy sitting on my other side finally asked her pointedly to please be quiet. She shut up, but it was obvious she was really pissed about it.

About the signs and banners - I was seated above the judges on the lower level for the entire competition and had a great vantage point of the Club and VIP seating. Not only had signs for Sasha been taken down by Friday afternoon, but signs for Michelle had been put up in their place.

I'm not going to re-hash all the stuff about MKF behavior at Nats over here as I've discussed it ad nauseum over there and on another board that's more sane. Bottom line, if you're going to go to a competition en masse and wear clothing or hang signs identifying yourself as a member of a forum, you can bet your sweet *** its going to reflect on the forum as a whole. Regardless of one's opinion or bias one way or another, it's apparent that something DID happen for attention, both positive and negative, to be garnered in their direction. Add to that the fact that the Atlanta Journal-Constitution profiled MKF and interviewed a couple of hard-core members from that forum. What did they expect? Absolute worship and praise? No increase or focusing of attention to them? They wanted the attention, and they got it in spades. Now they're just reaping what they sow.

I'm a regular poster over there, but I've become persona non-grata because I go against the grain of blind worship and paying homage to the Altar of Kwan. I'm a trouble-maker in a lot of people's eyes, including the Moderator over there who needs to be removed due to his inability to remain objective when dealing with opinions and facts he doesn't agree with or like, simply because I point out the inconsistencies and at times, the hypocrisy of some of the comments made. I've been told that if I don't agree with things there, that I need to find another forum.

I hate to say it, but the uber-worship from not only MKF, but several skater-specific boards, has started to detract from my enjoyment of the sport. I'm at a place where I'm ready to ignore skating discussions on the Internet altogether and go back to just watching my TV.

Thank heavens I've found a home board where I can post my opinion without being railed on, have a sense of humor without being accused of bashing, and doesn't ascribe to group think, and whose members are above all, fans of figure skating as well as having a favorite.

Cyn

Italiano

03-12-2004, 09:24 PM

SK8- Thank you for filling us in. I've had similar experiances at other events. I even wondered if they were drunk? Maybe they are tanked up. Well, I think after last Nationals at least security is more aware and something can now be done about this. Maybe if everyone going to events from now on complains, something permanate will be done.

jcspkbfan

03-12-2004, 09:43 PM

I can't comment on the remarks about US Nationals since I wasn't there, but out of curiosity, I did check out some of those LiveJournals IgglesII mentioned...and some of those truly did make me 8O . Not only are there LiveJournals by people claiming to be well-known skaters, but I also noticed a couple claiming to be written by well-known skaters' children (where the only disclaimer to the contrary was only written in the "user info" profile which most people probably don't bother to check anyway). Now that is definitely crossing the line too far! :evil:

Granted, a lot of those journals are obviously fakes, but some of them could easily been mistaken as written by the real skaters if you didn't know any better.

Truly the most disturbing example of fans "crossing the line" I've come across in quite some time...

adrianchew

03-13-2004, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Italiano

:roll: The two owners one of who is not active now, have done nothing so far.

In their defense - they aren't truly owners. Ezboards are typically funded by community contributions ie. the members of the board, and the costs for a high traffic Ezboard isn't exactly peanuts. Having the community fund the board in part adds to the problem - there are no true real owners, and some that chipped in monies feel a sense of entitlement.

For the longest of times I tried to avoid having moderators here - it isn't easy to pick and make the right choices for moderators, and each one is going to react to situations slightly differently. I'm not surprised they have had some problems since adding moderators at MKF, and especially since the community there has a much stronger sense of entitlement.

I'm not sure what can be done - people who run boards can't really control and determine what their populace does - their only choice really is to either disassociate certain people (banning them, etc) from the community. And whenever such a choice is made, the ones that are told to go away turn around and start accusing the admins/moderators/etc as being the devil incarnate. Sometimes its just a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation.

As for the behavior at events - I think that USFSA and LOCs have a much bigger onus on them to ensure the safety of the atheletes and they seem to have gotten it done upside down - go crazy on the fans trying to get a bus pass to get around, yet failing to properly screen the volunteers. If you look around hard enough you'll find posts on the Internet by some volunteers on their behavior while officially on duty, and they see nothing wrong with it.

Kemy

03-13-2004, 10:12 AM

Very insightful Adrian. I don't blame the moderators. I blame the few that go out of their way to "show support" to their skaters. What happened to good old screaming your support at events. Now it's gone totally overboard in everybody's one uppance. Some fans do something at the event that other fans hear of, and then now THEY want to do something...and it goes on and on and on.

This does exist, and while the ones guilty do not admit wrongdoing, other fans do see the problems and just wish to disassociate themselves from those "Cultish" fans, which is why I find it offensive to be grouped together with them. I don't go to that forum anymore...I can get my info from more realistic forums. The "cultish ones" are only a minority over there, but when a minority becomes SO loud and obnoxious, you can't ignore them so the you just stop visiting...and that's a shame.

FYI...Before my attendance dropped, I saw some fans bringing up a subject about makign rules for behavior outside the forum. The idea was shot down as being too controlling and beyong the scope of the job of the moderator.

turtlehead

03-13-2004, 10:30 AM

Adrian, great post! Thank you for shedding some rational light on this situation. I think you should know better than most of us here about the ins and outs of owning a board.

proam

03-13-2004, 12:13 PM

I don’t get into the Michelle’s frays, or Sasha’s either for that matter, but I just happen to start reading this thread and I’m appalled at the reporting of fan behavior.
I don’t like Yags for many reasons, but when I went to SOI I applauded his appearances, that is called good manners.

Unbelievable those adults would go so overboard, how fanatic can a fan become without being labeled creepy zealot. Bad behavior may be excusable in teens, youth, and all that, not excusable in adults.

As for the fan with the claim that others “stole” Michelle’s moves, that is laughable. A come back response would be all the moves Michelle “stole” from other skaters, like going back to the twenties. Too funny.

There was a thread on RRSIF, I think that was the place, that debunked, as in the identity of the skater that did a certain move first, all the moved Michelle supposedly “invented”. Her score O.

And before I’m labeled, I like Michelle and Sasha, and yes that happen in the non-fanatic world.

turtlehead

03-13-2004, 01:44 PM

I don't think it matters who the skater is...they all have some freakish fans. But the MKF is quite large and got a ton of attention in Atlanta. The more attention they got, the worse they acted it seems. And the more attention they got, the more people joined in to get some of the glory. You would think that they would want to act a bit more polite considering that they claim that Michelle Kwan is who they love the most. She has been nothing but polite to others, you think they would want to follow suit.

Tapper

03-13-2004, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by sk8cynic
At Nats I was seated two empty seats away from a Kwan fan (best I know she was NOT affiliated with MKF), who got in my face because I held up a sign for Sasha after she skated her SP.... The woman blocked my way out of the aisle and wanted to argue about it.

During the next group of skaters, this woman kept saying loudly (to the point of people sitting three rows in front of her turning around and staring) stuff like "That's just like Michelle's!!" "That's a Michelle move!" etc. When Jenny Don skated her SP, it came to a head when she kept saying (on the verge of yelling) "She's been studying Michelle" and when Jenny did a Spread Eagle, the woman practically shouted "She stole that from Michelle!!" :roll: The guy sitting on my other side finally asked her pointedly to please be quiet. She shut up, but it was obvious she was really pissed about it.
Cyn

Now I see what people mean when they refer to "uber fans" or "fanatic" fans (redundant?). Sounds to me like this woman who confronted you has a personality disorder that maybe a few sessions with a good therapist would help. Fans, fanaticism, fanatical behavior... I say don't blame the subject of the fanaticism, blame the fanatic.

Kwanisaswan

03-13-2004, 04:51 PM

And what great historic achievements they are! ;)
Michelle Kwan:

Lady World Champion (5 titles in all 2nd on the all time list)
1996(7 triples)
1998(6 triples)
2000(7 Triples including 3/3)
2001(7 Triples including 3/3)*sucessfully defended world title*
2003(6 Triples)

Olympic Medals
1998-Silver
2002-Bronze

Natinal Champion(8 titles only 2nd on all time list)
1996
1998
1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004

Seven time Skate America Champion(Most Skate America Titles by skater)
1995
1996
1997
1999
2000
2001
2002

Peak Years: 1995-????
World Titles: 5
National Titles: 8
Olympic medals:2

Records of note
*Most medals at the world championshiops by any US skater
*2nd on the all time list of most lady world champions
*2nd behind Owen for most Ladies US titles
*Most consecutive ladies US titles
*Nearly 10 consecutive years of podium finishes. 1995-2004:)

Record since 2002: a record 99% of skaters would love to have

3 national titles
1 world title
1 skate america title
1 olympic medal

sk8cynic

03-13-2004, 05:53 PM

KwanisaSwan, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why do her uber-fans feel compelled to drag out her resume and competitive history every time someone mentions anything in Michelle's past? It seems to have become some sort of reassuring mantra or the Litany of the Kwan, but it's old and beyond old to hear it over and over :roll:

We have eyes and ears and don't need to be browbeaten with it. If I had a nickel for every time some OTT fan of hers has done what you did, I'd be a wealthy woman.

Then again, this is the time when Uber-Fans from all sides start whipping themselves into their histrionic pre-World's frenzy and turn into intolerable zealots.

-Cyn

valuvsmk

03-13-2004, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by sk8cynic
KwanisaSwan, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why do her uber-fans feel compelled to drag out her resume and competitive history every time someone mentions anything in Michelle's past? It seems to have become some sort of reassuring mantra or the Litany of the Kwan, but it's old and beyond old to hear it over and over :roll:

We have eyes and ears and don't need to be browbeaten with it. If I had a nickel for every time some OTT fan of hers has done what you did, I'd be a wealthy woman.

Then again, this is the time when Uber-Fans from all sides start whipping themselves into their histrionic pre-World's frenzy and turn into intolerable zealots.

-Cyn

The Litany of the Kwan - just reading that brings up an image like something out of the "Dune" series, where Paul Atreides has been turned into a god even though he is still alive.

With acolytes like Kwanisaswan, who needs fans (directed at all the acolytes and high priests/esses, not Michelle)? :roll:

Interestingly, in that series, Paul eventually rejects all those who worship him. 8O:

Italiano

03-13-2004, 06:46 PM

It is pretty sick.

sk8cynic

03-13-2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by valuvsmk
The Litany of the Kwan - just reading that brings up an image like something out of the "Dune" series, where Paul Atreides has been turned into a god even though he is still alive.

With acolytes like Kwanisaswan, who needs fans (directed at all the acolytes and high priests/esses, not Michelle)? :roll:

Interestingly, in that series, Paul eventually rejects all those who worship him. 8O:

PML!!! Come to think of it, Michelle hasn't posted over there in a while......

turtlehead

03-13-2004, 10:06 PM

I know when I go to a competition I pay money to watch the skaters compete. I don't waste my time on what the fans are doing. Trying to bring a board down because of the actions of some its members is very uber in and of itself. Perhaps some of us need hobbies?

peaches

03-13-2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by turtlehead
I know when I go to a competition I pay money to watch the skaters compete. I don't waste my time on what the fans are doing. Trying to bring a board down because of the actions of some its members is very uber in and of itself. Perhaps some of us need hobbies?

When the uber fans are ruining the atmosphere and disturbing others who also paid a hefty sum for their tickets, it's not need of a hobby that makes people pay attention, it's plain old obnoxious behaviour. If they'd settle down and act like normal, responsible adults no one would give a whit what the heck they were doing. No one had to try to bring down that board, they did it with their own actions. ;) No one MADE them act that way, they did it all by themselves and since they did I think everyone has a right to discuss it. They got themselves into the spotlight, now they'll have to deal with the criticism.

icyboid

03-14-2004, 02:08 AM

I was PML when all the uberfans had purple pompoms at Nationals to match her earlier Tosca outfit, and then she skated out in her brand new orange Wang creation....:lol:

apache88

03-14-2004, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by adrianchew
Anyone who thinks MK fans are non cult-like is in serious denial and needs to pay a visit to MKF where there has been discussions about the behavior of MK fans at US Nationals this year. Even MK herself has hinted on TV about how her fans seem to follow her every move that her agent can figure out what she's doing by just visiting her fan forum on the Internet.

Adrian, I think it's totally unfair of you to throw this at Michelle fans. It's ok to refer it to fanatic Michelle fans but to make a sweeping statement like that about Michelle fans in your first sentence is uncalled for. As a moderator the more you shouldn't make such statements about other boards the same way ministers should avoid criticizing other races. You will lose respect not because of your criticism of Michelle's skating which is totally fine, but because of such unwarranted sweeping statements you make. You may want to know the so-called infamous MKF is being run by a wonderful, classy lady called Heather. I have never read a single negative post from her about other skaters or other boards. All she has been doing is gushing about Michelle.

Please allow me to share something with you. I have read obnoxious posts from Sashiacs as much as from Kwaniacs which I detest. I was horrified by some of the posts I read about Michelle after her win at 2003 Nationals at a Sasha Board, then it was deja vu after her win at 2003 Worlds and it was deja vu all over again after her recent win at 2004 Nationals. I understood it was due to some black sheep and it never made me think Sasha fans were horrible. In fact I am glad there are so many nice Sasha fans who would admonish those who bash. Similarly there are many sensible Michelle fans at MKF who would have no qualms to do the same. Please, this is not just for Adrian but for those who are quick to label. Don't be surprised that Michelle isn't the only one who has fanatic fans. Thanks. ;)

luvtoskate

03-14-2004, 01:02 PM

Thanks, Apache88, for your post - very well said.

I think this whole issue has been blown out of proportion (and it always seems to be the same handful of posters who are spreading this stuff across the Net). There are always going to be posters who like to "stir the pot" so to speak - I certainly don't believe everything I read on the Net.

Can we just move on and enjoy the skating.

Italiano

03-14-2004, 01:26 PM

This isn't about the net at all. We are discussing MKF behavior at the events. Not other Michelle fans, simply MKF at events. They have made it very hard to enjoy the other skaters and there is talk of action to stop their behavior. As Peach mentioned, they have brought this on themselves by their loud and obnoxious behavior at the last event. They have been acting this way for some time.

sk8cynic

03-14-2004, 01:56 PM

Again, to make this clear: It is not fair to lump all members of MKF into one bunch. It was definitely a minority of the members there whose behavior was brought into question by others attending Nationals. Granted, this minority is the most vocal, but it isn't right to label all 6000+ members of that forum as out-of-control and obnoxious.

I met several MKFers in person at Nats, and for the most part, the ones I met were all very nice and as normal as the next person. I never met the ones whose behavior has been discussed, save 1 or 2.

My point was only that if one is going to publicly identify his or herself with a group, the actions of one will reflect on the group as a whole.

And to whomever said that there are OTT fans for other skaters, they are absolutely correct. Every skater has them (Sasha and Yagudin come to mind first), and though I've never witnessed it personally, I know things like this have happened before, but not on the scale of which MKF has received criticism.

-Cyn

Italiano

03-14-2004, 03:01 PM

Yes, of course there are many members of MKF who don't act this way but the minority are the ones who always show up representing the forum and making it impossible for others to enjoy the event. The rest of the large forum aren't there. This unfortunetly makes it seem that the entire forum has the problem. The fact that they won't discuss it is very telling.

peaches

03-14-2004, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Italiano
Yes, of course there are many members of MKF who don't act this way but the minority are the ones who always show up representing the forum and making it impossible for others to enjoy the event. The rest of the large forum aren't there. This unfortunetly makes it seem that the entire forum has the problem. The fact that they won't discuss it is very telling.

ITA! Well, actually members that were at Nationals DID try to discuss it and tell what they knew and they were verbally flogged and called character asassinators. 8O Everyone has been told to not discuss it AT ALL until the moderators and owners get together. It's been over a month since they've been under heavy censorship over there and I see no light at the end of the tunnel. When members of their own pompon squad say that some things went on at Nats, and it all gets hushed up really quickly, it's very telling. They're trying to practice some CYA on that forum, but it's too late.

Kwanisaswan

03-14-2004, 10:04 PM

I don't care what ya'll say MKF is better than 99% of the other forums on the net.
It is high time someone defended MKF and make this thread fair and balanced:
MKF has 2 things:
a police AGINST bashing-those that bash are quickly repremanded
a friendly, forum that members come go gush about michelle

It seems to me the real beef is that those that hate Kwan and her acomplishments(i.e the anti-kwans) hate MKF be it is a place where Michelle fans can go to gush over Michelle. It is their right to have a forum on the internet to talk about a comment intrest(MK). MKF has donated $10000 to a childrens Charity in Michelle's name, When has a nother fan forum dont something comparible like that???

MKF ROX!!

Kwanisaswan

03-14-2004, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by sk8cynic
KwanisaSwan, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why do her uber-fans feel compelled to drag out her resume and competitive history every time someone mentions anything in Michelle's past? It seems to have become some sort of reassuring mantra or the Litany of the Kwan, but it's old and beyond old to hear it over and over :roll:

-Cyn

Well I say to you sk8cynic...let's not allow the dissusion to be controled by 2 polor opposite extreams, one that hates sasha/loves michelle and the other hates michelle/loves sasha. Let's allow the moderates to dictate the debate. I just posted my message to keep this thread "fair and balanced".

ETA: Yes I do presend Michelle resume whenever other attack her. I will continue to do so. I have every right to point out Michelle's career record when I defend her. I have the right to bring up examples from the past when Michelle has skated well.

peaches

03-14-2004, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Kwanisaswan
MKF has donated $10000 to a childrens Charity in Michelle's name, When has a nother fan forum dont something comparible like that???

Oh yes, I knew they'd play the "We donated tons of money in the name of Michelle, that makes us the BESTEST of all fans" card. So predictable! :lol: :lol: :lol: It's really disgusting to use her that way.

BTW, I'm not anti-Kwan, I really like her, I'm just anti-MKF and anti using Michelle and the charitable donations to get things for the forum. They didn't raise that money for the charity, they raised it to make her a platinum medal....they just raised more than needed and then decided to give it away. ;) If they'd done it all for a charity only, and never mentioned it again then I'd think that was great, instead they made her a medal that probably got used in a broomball match one night after a COI show. And we have to hear about how wonderful they all are for being such angels and donating to a charity. Ya right. What about the money wasted on a medal? How many more children would that have helped? ;)

It also disgusts me that a member of that board threatened Sasha. How far will they go next time? 8O

Italiano

03-14-2004, 10:34 PM

Kwanisaswan, I think you are missing the point. This discussion is about how they act at the events and the cover up going on.

valuvsmk

03-14-2004, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by peaches
Oh yes, I knew they'd play the "We donated tons of money in the name of Michelle, that makes us the BESTEST of all fans" card. So predictable! :lol: :lol: :lol: It's really disgusting to use her that way.

BTW, I'm not anti-Kwan, I really like her, I'm just anti-MKF and anti using Michelle and the charitable donations to get things for the forum. They didn't raise that money for the charity, they raised it to make her a platinum medal....they just raised more than needed and then decided to give it away. ;) If they'd done it all for a charity only, and never mentioned it again then I'd think that was great, instead they made her a medal that probably got used in a broomball match one night after a COI show. And we have to hear about how wonderful they all are for being such angels and donating to a charity. Ya right. What about the money wasted on a medal? How many more children would that have helped? ;)

It also disgusts me that a member of that board threatened Sasha. How far will they go next time? 8O

I agree with peaches here. The platinum medal, IIRC, came up after Irina (through no effort of her own, mind you) was given a solid gold medal by some private individual, I believe, after SLC 2002.

MKF came off as having to outdo Irina's benefactor because "platinum is more precious than gold".

Having viewed the videos of the "presentation ceremony", I feel that I can safely say that Michelle was far more moved by the check to CMN than by the medal. Too bad, IMHO and that of several others, that the money spent on the medal wasn't also donated to charity.

hiliairyh

03-14-2004, 11:11 PM

Is this thread off topic or what.

It is supposed to be about Michelle shrugs about historic achievements, and it has turned into the sins of MKF. OK my interest is pique.

Since you brought it up, at least provide a link to the stuff you are talking about at MKF

valuvsmk

03-14-2004, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by hiliairyh
Is this thread off topic or what.

It is supposed to be about Michelle shrugs about historic achievements.

Since you brought it up, at least provide a link to the stuff you are talking about at MKF

Here's the link to the forum - happy reading.

http://pub165.ezboard.com/bmichellekwanforum

hiliairyh

03-14-2004, 11:19 PM

I know the link to MKF, I mean the specific threads that talk about nationals and fan behavior.

sk8cynic

03-14-2004, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Kwanisaswan
ETA: Yes I do presend Michelle resume whenever other attack her. I will continue to do so. I have every right to point out Michelle's career record when I defend her. I have the right to bring up examples from the past when Michelle has skated well.

I never said you didn't have the right to do so, I merely was pointing out that it gets really old really quick. I have eyes, I have ears, and I have a good memory. I know her competitive record, as do most people who follow skating.

It's just more predictable behavior IMO. A knee-jerk response whenever someone feels the Kween is being critiqued in any way, shape, or form.

Kwanisaswan

03-15-2004, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by peaches
Oh yes, I knew they'd play the "We donated tons of money in the name of Michelle, that makes us the BESTEST of all fans" card. So predictable! :lol: :lol: :lol: It's really disgusting to use her that way.

However you spin it, it is strong eveidence that MKF is not the freak show you try to protray it as. The fact that we raised $10000 for a childrens charity and donated it in Michelle's name...well I don't know how anyone could call that "disgusting"(your words):(

Kwanisaswan

03-15-2004, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Italiano
Kwanisaswan, I think you are missing the point. This discussion is about how they act at the events and the cover up going on.
REALLY?? Shouldn't the discussion be about "Kwan shugs off historical acheivements"

It just amazes me that people attact MKF for donating money in michelle's name to a charity calling it "disgusting" and such. MKF is damned if they do damned if they don't...well hear this, the level of bashing that has been going on in this thread would not be tolerated at MKF.

ETA:
sk8cynic,
I will continue to defend Michelle when she is attached. Michelle's competitve record speaks for itself that is why I will continue to post it to put the anti-kwan in their place. Also construtive critisizim is welcome. I am more than happy to engage in a intelligent conversation about the Kween but anti-kwans will be greeted with the "list".

Italiano

03-15-2004, 01:03 AM

hila, the threads in question at MKF have been removed.That is part of what we are talking about. The only thread remaining is a locked thread located in the MKF forum feedback section of the board. This was huge on the board right after Nationals and then all threads pertaining to this situation in MK Chat were locked, people's posts were erased, others were banned for reporting what they saw at Nationals, some received threatening pm's from the rowdy attendees. I could go on, but I'm exhausted just thinking about it. As it stands now, nobody is allowed to talk about this until futher notice,if ever. Also, Kwanisaswan, nobody is attacking Michelle, none of this is her fault. She herself has not posted there in a long time.

nyskatefan

03-15-2004, 03:53 AM

I have to say something here. I think it is unfair for anyone to try and say what was in someone's heart. Noone can say with any authority that they know why each person decided to contribute to the medal/charity at MKF. If people were a part of that, unless I know for a fact differently, I will assume they did it for the right reasons. And how can anyone tell someone else how much they should give to a charity ... that is each person's individual choice.

And Kwanisaswan, I would not have brought that up here ... you open yourself up for criticism.

Kabooke

03-15-2004, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by Bondo
I think is is a sign of being a bit crazy for all these fans to put so much money up. I mean, if I actually had money to be donating to charities, I would probably pick one on my own and have it be a quiet thing rather than collect it together so that MKF can get attention for giving a big donation in her name. It isn't much charity if it is also publicity. Charity should be done to feel good and do good, not to look good (or to write it off on your taxes).

What do you care?

It was their money to do with as they saw fit!
Also, it wasn't for publicity! They did it to show appreciation for Kwan. They got a medal, looked gorgeous from the pics and they donated the rest of the money to her favorite charity! She was genuinely touched and appreciated it so much, as well as CMN I'm sure. That is nothing different than other celebrity's having fans care that much.

Also, how was it publicized?
Maybe a little article or something?
From what I've heard it was a little presentation for Michelle before a COI show in the hallway. Yeah, they really alerted the media didn't they!8-)

Wasn't Irina given a gold medal by some Russian company or something?
They wanted to show her appreciation and felt she was not given her due in SLC! She was just as happy as anyone would be to know people cared that much! And not that I care but that was more public than Michelle's, IIRC.:P

You only seem to want to critisize
anyways, so do as you will.

Both Michelle and Irina were touched by
the gestures and that's all that matters.

NorthernLite

03-15-2004, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by sk8cynic
this woman kept saying loudly ... stuff like "That's just like Michelle's!!" "That's a Michelle move!" etc.

Because many of y'all weren't Sarah fans, you may not have noticed Kwanatics did that constantly re: Sarah too.

I especially recall "learning" from MKF that Sarah and Robin had stolen the last part of Michelle's free skate and inserted it into the revamped Daphnis and Chloe at SLC. I guess when you're dysfunctionally bitter about Sarah having *skated* better than Michelle, all you're left with is screaming "copyright infringement." :P

the uber-worship from not only MKF, but several skater-specific boards, has started to detract from my enjoyment of the sport. I'm at a place where I'm ready to ignore skating discussions on the Internet altogether and go back to just watching my TV.

I hear you about the uber-worship of several skaters. I haven't been to events where behavior by any particular fan group has been out of hand. Just the usual boorish behavior you get at any live event these days.

But you can't totally get away from the Weird Fan Stuff merely watching TV either. During one or more cheesefest broadcasts I've been annoyed by this high-pitched random screeching from a few fans during MK's skating.

I think even the general crowd response to Kwan comes partly from people who are just excited to see "Michelle Kwan," not from those who can really discriminate about what they are seeing on the ice. You could say the same thing about several skaters who've reached a certain level of fame.

peaches

03-15-2004, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Kwanisaswan
However you spin it, it is strong eveidence that MKF is not the freak show you try to protray it as. The fact that we raised $10000 for a childrens charity and donated it in Michelle's name...well I don't know how anyone could call that "disgusting"(your words):(

I didn't spin it. You raised money for a MEDAL. There was more than needed so the rest was donated to a charity. It didn't start out as a feel-good charitable thing, it started out trying to make Michelle feel better for losing again. But that part is always left off, it's always just "We are so kwanderful to have raised so much money for charity". THAT's what disgusts me. That and the fact that the charity thing gets used ad nauseum to "prove" that those people are normal. If they were so normal how come a lot of them, including one of the moderators (kwanluv), spent the better part of the summer of 2001 conspiring to keep Michelle's music a secret, even going so far as to start a secret board? How come one of them posed as a CHILD and started another board to post fake practice reports from Michelle's rink? Is that a freakshow? In my book, hell YES! Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. ;)

Michelle is a lovely, gracious young woman who doesn't deserve fans like that.

bunghodog

03-15-2004, 09:14 AM

I agree she does not deserve crazed fans,( as other skaters do not either). I can not imagine doing those things just for a skater.

manleywoman

03-15-2004, 10:18 AM

kwanisaswan...nobody here is attacking or bashing Michelle. They are distressed by the behavior of some of her fans.

Learn the difference.

As for my views on internet forums: I prefer fsuniverse for overall news, and skatingforums for the "On Ice" section because there's a strong competitive adult community here. I occasionally go to MKF, but I do find that it's too Kwan-centric for my taste (understandable of course for a board dedicated to her!). I find that they gush over Kwan too much at the expense of other skaters, and personally being a skater myself I appreciate the talents of all the skaters because they each bring a special talent and uniqueness to the sport. Even the girls who come in dead last at Nationals have something to offer.

That's why I find booing of other skaters at competitions so appalling and unnecessary. This is not ice hockey! Rather than tear other skaters down, crazed fans should be more impressed that their favorite mens/ladies skater has been able to beat such talented competition. Certainly Kwan herself would never stoop to such levels. So if the few MK fans that are consistantly causing havoc at competitions would just act as classy as the woman they admire, there wouldn't be any trouble.

So while I love the TV Schedule over there, and the general news about Michelle, I ignore a lot of the other sections.

And I'm a huge Kwan fan.

Samskate

03-15-2004, 10:45 AM

Well said, manleywoman!;)

Kabooke

03-15-2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by manleywoman
kwanisaswan...nobody here is attacking or bashing Michelle. They are distressed by the behavior of some of her fans.

Learn the difference.

As for my views on internet forums: I prefer fsuniverse for overall news, and skatingforums for the "On Ice" section because there's a strong competitive adult community here. I occasionally go to MKF, but I do find that it's too Kwan-centric for my taste (understandable of course for a board dedicated to her!). I find that they gush over Kwan too much at the expense of other skaters, and personally being a skater myself I appreciate the talents of all the skaters because they each bring a special talent and uniqueness to the sport. Even the girls who come in dead last at Nationals have something to offer.

That's why I find booing of other skaters at competitions so appalling and unnecessary. This is not ice hockey! Rather than tear other skaters down, crazed fans should be more impressed that their favorite mens/ladies skater has been able to beat such talented competition. Certainly Kwan herself would never stoop to such levels. So if the few MK fans that are consistantly causing havoc at competitions would just act as classy as the woman they admire, there wouldn't be any trouble.

So while I love the TV Schedule over there, and the general news about Michelle, I ignore a lot of the other sections.

And I'm a huge Kwan fan.

I think the only thing that kwanisaswan and others get upset about is the uneccessary pot shot's taken at Kwan fans in general over a couples unseemingly behvior. Blanket statements.
But whatever, everyone controls their own actions.

End for me.

Woofy2

03-15-2004, 12:26 PM

i haven't post here in a long while; just lurking. it's quite refreshing to read how some posters are so passionate of their skating view points, especially during these times of skating's decline in popularity.

imo, there's nothing wrong with these "kwanatics"....we need to thank them for their energy, money, and visability to the sport of figure skating. yes, MKF got major publicity during '04 nationals. what's wrong with that? skating promoters love that. dick and peggy too. :) if michelle kwan sells, than why not? these kwanatics just further confirm how great michelle is. who wouldn't want to revere michelle? she's hot, nice, and an awesome skater to boot.

sure, many of michelle's fans do go to the extreme to show their loyalty by shouting and making obnoxiuos behavior/remarks. i just find them amusing. some of these fans may be "young" or young at heart, but who cares?! let them be. :) :) :)

peaches

03-15-2004, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Woofy2
but who cares?! let them be. :) :) :)

When I've paid as much $ for tickets as they're charging these days, *I* care. Everyone has a right to complain about *******s. And no, no one should "let them be". They're doing more than just yelling and cheering in case you didn't read the rest of the posts.

show their loyalty by shouting and making obnoxiuos behavior/remarks.

Can't believe people condone obnoxious behaviour. Lovely.

Woofy2

03-15-2004, 12:47 PM

peaches. with all due respect and let's get real. figure skating is also a sport, not a nite at the opera. competitive spirit, cut throat actions, holding up your pride/accomplishments to tear your competitors and fans down is part of the game.

in every competition, there's always a loser (s) and winner. there's always unhappy and happy fans. that's the reality. you pay top notch dollars to these skating events, so deal with them (obnoxious behavior). otherwise, just sit home and suffer thru peggy's and dick's commentary. ;)

adrianchew

03-15-2004, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Kwanisaswan

However you spin it, it is strong eveidence that MKF is not the freak show you try to protray it as. The fact that we raised $10000 for a childrens charity and donated it in Michelle's name...well I don't know how anyone could call that "disgusting"(your words) :(

The collection wasn't done for charity - but so much was collected that the excess was given away to charity. The rest went into a rather IMO "tacky" gift for Michelle.

As for stereotyping a whole group for the actions of a few bad apples - perhaps the group needs to deal with the individuals giving the group a bad name. That's up to the group, and if they choose to sweep problems under the carpet, then they certainly haven't done themselves any favors - your silence ends up giving consent to the bad apples to continue their actions in the future.

The funny thing is the people in the group that tried to address the problem ended up being the ones told to hush up.

P/S - Normally I wouldn't encourage discussion about other boards/forums because what they do is up to them as a community, but in this case it has spread beyond the confines of the community and affects the general skating populace given the misorderly conduct at events and so on.

peaches

03-15-2004, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Woofy2
peaches. with all due respect and let's get real. figure skating is also a sport, not a nite at the opera. competitive spirit, cut throat actions, holding up your pride/accomplishments to tear your competitors and fans down is part of the game.

in every competition, there's always a loser (s) and winner. there's always unhappy and happy fans. that's the reality. you pay top notch dollars to these skating events, so deal with them (obnoxious behavior). otherwise, just sit home and suffer thru peggy's and dick's commentary. ;)

Yes, let's get real. Skating was much more refined before the internet gave birth to the uberfans. I'd like to see the sport maintain whatever dignity it can.

I pay top dollar to see skating, not fanatical behaviour. I don't think fanatics should be included in the ticket price, nor should anyone have to "just deal with them". Letting people get away with that kind of behaviour only encourages it and puts a stamp of approval on it.

Hopefully the jerks will tone it down at future events. If not, I hope security at the arenas and the LOCs become more apt to throw them out than to let them get away with the sorts of things they've done in the past.

HSF

03-15-2004, 01:57 PM

I have to somewhat disagree with you, Woofy2.

I put figure skating in the same classification as tennis and golf. A certain amount of common sense and just plain old courtesy is demanded of the fans attending those competitions and if things get out of hand, the offending fan(s) are ejected.

These "rules of etiquette" are not in place to make it a pleasant experience for the fans in attendance, but to create an atmosphere where the athletes can perform to the best of their abilities.

I'm not commenting on what went on at Nationals as I wasn't there and know nothing about it. I'm simply stating that I think a certain amount of common courtesy should be extended to the skaters that have worked so hard to reach the elite level in their sport.

Kemy

03-15-2004, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by adrianchew
As for stereotyping a whole group for the actions of a few bad apples - perhaps the group needs to deal with the individuals giving the group a bad name. That's up to the group, and if they choose to sweep problems under the carpet, then they certainly haven't done themselves any favors - your silence ends up giving consent to the bad apples to continue their actions in the future.

Exactly what is "the group" supposed to do? Tackle people they feel are acting out of line? This makes no sense...You already said before the what happens outside of the forum is outside of the moderators responsiblity. Other than banning, what else can be done anyways? Even if banned, these uberfans will still be going to the competitions and acting out of hand.

As to how MKF handled the situation, many voiced concerns over the lack of dignity of some of its members, but since those members are also the most vocal in in the group, a lot of people's concerns were shot down as being anti-kwan. It's so not worth it to argue against people who refuse to see anything wrong with their actions.

Also, Kwanisaswan,

Could you please stop relisting the same informatin over and over again? It's rather redundant and unnecessary. Michelle is not concentrating on her past, so you should not be forcing it down people's throats either. That informastion doesn't belong in this thread and you've already posted it everywhere else on the internet.

I'd like to see the fans start emulating the skaters that they so admire. A peaceful rivalry is healthy, but those who go overboard and either voice hatred of such-and-such skater or defend their hero against critical analysis actually can affect others' views of that skater.

adrianchew

03-15-2004, 03:01 PM

Kemy,

I don't think there are any easy answers - but ex-communicating some and preventing them from being a part of activities is a possible alternative. If the group plans a get-together like a dinner at the event, don't invite the abberants, etc. The moderators can't ensure this, only the community can do that by self-governing themselves.

Sticking heads in the ground and just pretending it didn't happen isn't going to fix anything.

But as I said previously - I think the USFSA/LOC need to figure out their security policy better. Of greater concern is the fans that got credentialled as volunteers and ended up having much greater access than they should have.

turtlehead

03-15-2004, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Kemy
Exactly what is "the group" supposed to do? Tackle people they feel are acting out of line? This makes no sense...You already said before the what happens outside of the forum is outside of the moderators responsiblity. Other than banning, what else can be done anyways? Even if banned, these uberfans will still be going to the competitions and acting out of hand.

As to how MKF handled the situation, many voiced concerns over the lack of dignity of some of its members, but since those members are also the most vocal in in the group, a lot of people's concerns were shot down as being anti-kwan. It's so not worth it to argue against people who refuse to see anything wrong with their actions.

Also, Kwanisaswan,

Could you please stop relisting the same informatin over and over again? It's rather redundant and unnecessary. Michelle is not concentrating on her past, so you should not be forcing it down people's throats either. That informastion doesn't belong in this thread and you've already posted it everywhere else on the internet.

I'd like to see the fans start emulating the skaters that they so admire. A peaceful rivalry is healthy, but those who go overboard and either voice hatred of such-and-such skater or defend their hero against critical analysis actually can affect others' views of that skater.

AMEN! To your whole post!!! Especially to what you wrote to kwanisaswan. This poster is a fine example of the problem over at MKF. And posting that information is not only unnecessary, but it's also a waste of bandwith, which someone who is not you has to pay for.

Italiano

03-15-2004, 04:18 PM

:idea: I'll tell you what can be done. The next time you attend an event and are bothered by these fans, you can report them to security. I plan to do this and I know others are as well. Yes you can follow through on this to put a stop to this behavior that disturbs others who, like Peach said, paid good money to see the events and have their veiwing ruined. I,for one, will not sit by and put up with this. I will be pro-active.

Woofy2

03-15-2004, 05:30 PM

HSF! great post! i actually totally agree with everything you said, especialy the part where fan's behavior should not affect a skater's performance...that's a great point. :) however, as much as figure skating is a "nice" sport like golf and tennis, it's still a sport, and we need to treat it as such. if we all can be honest with ourselves, don't we always want our faves to win, and wish our opponents to lose (everything being equal)?

case in point: as you know, michelle is a regular at many LA lakers home games (basketball). she would relish each jump shot missed from the opposing team, so that the lakers could get ahead. would that make her evil? i wouldn't be surprised if she would even participate in very loud and obnoxious chants to psyche the opposing team from scoring a free throw (try to visualize the annoying wiggling noodles and loud boos from the home fans).

again, if i was at an opera, my behavior would be different, mainly cuz of the elegence of the evening, and the fact that it's not a competition. my view is perhaps due in part of my personality (very competitive in nature generally...i like passion, high drama and intensity).

turtlehead, italiano, bondo, & peaches: sour grapes. :) that's good, though.

for the record, i'm not for behavior that would block an audience view or enjoyment, but if michelle does great, you bet that i'll savor each moment with loud shouts of 6.0s onto turtlehead's, italiano's, bondo's, peaches's, and adrian's faces.

Woofy2

03-15-2004, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Italiano
:idea: I'll tell you what can be done. The next time you attend an event and are bothered by these fans, you can report them to security.

but what if security is a kwan fan?

turtlehead

03-15-2004, 06:33 PM

turtlehead, italiano, bondo, & peaches: sour grapes. that's good, though

Whatever. You obviously have not read all my posts in this thread. I wouldn't say I have sour grapes, I would say I am a voice of reason. Perhaps you should research posters better before slinging insults at them. :roll:

Italiano

03-15-2004, 06:39 PM

There is nothing wrong with cheering for your favorite. We are talking about upsetting behavior and interfering with paid spectators right to see a competition. The MKF contiue to boo other skaters, scream and yell so nobody can hear the music, tearing down opposing skaters posters and signs-ect. To the point security did intervene at the last Nationals. If they continue, don't be surprised if they are removed at up coming events. This is not a sour grapes issue, it's a security issue.

sk8cynic

03-15-2004, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Woofy2
HSF! great post! i actually totally agree with everything you said, especialy the part where fan's behavior should not affect a skater's performance...that's a great point. :) however, as much as figure skating is a "nice" sport like golf and tennis, it's still a sport, and we need to treat it as such. if we all can be honest with ourselves, don't we always want our faves to win, and wish our opponents to lose (everything being equal)?

case in point: as you know, michelle is a regular at many LA lakers home games (basketball). she would relish each jump shot missed from the opposing team, so that the lakers could get ahead. would that make her evil? i wouldn't be surprised if she would even participate in very loud and obnoxious chants to psyche the opposing team from scoring a free throw (try to visualize the annoying wiggling noodles and loud boos from the home fans).

again, if i was at an opera, my behavior would be different, mainly cuz of the elegence of the evening, and the fact that it's not a competition. my view is perhaps due in part of my personality (very competitive in nature generally...i like passion, high drama and intensity).

turtlehead, italiano, bondo, & peaches: sour grapes. :) that's good, though.

for the record, i'm not for behavior that would block an audience view or enjoyment, but if michelle does great, you bet that i'll savor each moment with loud shouts of 6.0s onto turtlehead's, italiano's, bondo's, peaches's, and adrian's faces.

Dude, did you even bother to read this thread? I'm a fan of both Michelle AND Sasha, and I am a regular member over at MKF, and yes, there was behavior that was out of line.

Sure, I expect people to cheer for their favorite to win. What I DON'T expect are a bunch of histrionic banshees shrieking during a program from start to finish.

Comparing figure skating to fan behavior at a Lakers game is laughable IMO (oh and for the record I also find it irritating as hell when I have attended football and/or basketball games and wind up having to stand because if I don't, I won't be able to see the game in front of me because of all the yelling fans on their feet).

You brought up the sports of golf and tennis and labelled figure skating as a "nice" sport. My turn for a case in point: Do you think people would stand for the same type of behavior of Tiger Wood's fans at the Masters? Hell, Arnie's Army is world reknowned, but they didn't engage in the type of behavior now being discussed in this thread. I have a fat honking suspicion that if what went on at Philips Arena were to take place in Augusta or at Wimbledon, the "perpetrators," for lack of a better word, would have been tossed out on their arses, if not by security, then by other fans of the sport.

Sour grapes, my fanny. You just don't like the fact that the posters you singled out are right. The mere fact that the Mods over at MKF have chosen to sweep things under the rug and would prefer to remain ostrich-like about this only bolsters what many fans, both from the general realm of skating fandom and from MKF itself pointed out.

,,,,Or is it that you have a personal axe to grind with these folks, eh?

Kwanisaswan

03-15-2004, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by turtlehead
AMEN! To your whole post!!! Especially to what you wrote to kwanisaswan. This poster is a fine example of the problem over at MKF. And posting that information is not only unnecessary, but it's also a waste of bandwith, which someone who is not you has to pay for.

Why do you hate me??

Well since MKF is getting ripped to shreds and even when I point out that the vast majority of posters on MKF are not the crazy uberfans you make them out to be. I am simply defending myself and you call me crazy?? Anyway sashafans.com has got some uber-fans of it's own, but you'll never hear me say anything about that. Thanks for the personal attacks.

peaches

03-15-2004, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by Woofy2
if we all can be honest with ourselves, don't we always want our faves to win, and wish our opponents to lose (everything being equal)?

No. I wish for the best skater of whatever particular event to win, period, no matter who that is.

Maybe others are mean spirited enough to wish for their fave to win and all others to falter, but I'd consider those to be fans of a skater, not skating in general. Their loss.

sk8er1964

03-15-2004, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Kwanisaswan
Why do you hate me??

Well since MKF is getting ripped to shreds and even when I point out that the vast majority of posters on MKF are not the crazy uberfans you make them out to be. I am simply defending myself and you call me crazy?? Anyway sashafans.com has got some uber-fans of it's own, but you'll never hear me say anything about that. Thanks for the personal attacks.

I don't think people hate you, Kwanisaswan. It's just that it gets rather tiring to see the same list over and over again. Kind of like a kid in an argument who doesn't have any comeback, and resorts to sticking out his tongue and saying "so there!"

The internet behavior of some of Michelle's fans makes me want to root against MK just so her uberfans will go away and be quiet. Irrational, I know, but true. It takes away from my enjoyment of her skating, and she is a beautiful skater. I was at the Michigan cheesefest this year, and was horrified to hear the boos when Sasha's name was announced. What poor behavior. MK make a point of clapping when Sasha was announced, I think to try and negate the nasty behavior of the uberfans. She's a class act - too bad some of her fans are not.

valuvsmk

03-15-2004, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Kwanisaswan
Why do you hate me??

Gee, nothing like taking electrons on a computer screen and interpreting it as hatred of you personally, is there? No one knows you well enough to hate you personally, but many people disagree with the contents of your posts.

Well since MKF is getting ripped to shreds and even when I point out that the vast majority of posters on MKF are not the crazy uberfans you make them out to be. [/QUOTE]

Some of them are, many are not - however, the actions (or inactions) of the moderators and the majority of posters there regarding issues about the Uberfans and their actions don't help the board's reputation at all.

I am simply defending myself and you call me crazy?? Anyway sashafans.com has got some uber-fans of it's own, but you'll never hear me say anything about that.[/QUOTE]

I thought you just did.

Thanks for the personal attacks. [/QUOTE]

Why take them personally - do you see the truth in any of the comments? If so, you should examine what you say and how you say it - maybe after doing so, you might understand why your posts have been received here as they have.

hiliairyh

03-16-2004, 12:21 AM

If you can not produce a link to the stuff over at MKF, then it is from memory? I am not doubting people here, but memories could be distorted. So from the point of view of someone who has not read the original message, and just reading what is post here, sorry, some posts come across as nit picking, e.g. the medal and the charity. The lumping overgeneralization of Kwan fans and MKF (or any skater's fans and skaters forums) does not come across as reasonable either.

If the board dragging is for the overall better purpose of the general topic of better security in the future, then I say it is good. Right now, the criticism is too general lumping all Kwan fans, and condemning the entire forum, that comes across as unfair. Believe me, I have been to enough sports events and skating events to see bad fan behavior from other skaters too. There is no way bad fan behavior is just Kwan fans specific. I guess since Kwan has a lot of fans, it is not unreasonable to use MKF and Kwan fans as an example for an overall discussion about bad fan behavior. OTOH, if people are trying to claim that only Kwan fans are bad, only MKF is bad, then sorry, I don't agree.

About the medal and $ to charity. So they collected $ for a medal and gave left overs to charity, I see nothing wrong with that. I see nothing wrong with the medal either. It is their project. How is that a more tacky gift than Irina's gold medal or Sasha's gold bracelet? If there is $10,000 given to charity I say good. How many people who give $ to charity is really giving away the widow's last 2 pennies. People give to charity for all sorts of reasons, e.g. tax purpopse etc. To call that craze is over the board criticism IMHO. Anything that is overboard, diminish credibility in my book.

I think there is valid points being brought up about overall security for skaters.

Kwanisaswan, try not to take things too personal. :)

skater1964

MK make a point of clapping when Sasha was announced, I think to try and negate the nasty behavior of the uberfans. She's a class act - too bad some of her fans are not

From reading forums over the years, Michelle Kwan claps for other skaters all the time, I seriously doubt she even know Sasha was booed, or was trying to negate the behavior of uberfans. So what happens if Sasha is booed and Kwan did not clap for Sasha, will people blame Michelle for not negating her fans behavior. She is not responsible for her fans behavior period. Whether you enjoy Michelle or not is up to you, but I never let fan behaviors influence how I enjoy the skaters.

Italiano

03-16-2004, 12:22 AM

Kwanisaswan. I have not seen posters attack Michelle on this thread. We are discussing the strange behavior of the MKF not Michelle. Michelle has nothing to do with this and I don't see anyone saying any of this is Michelle's fault. hil, try accessing the last pages of MKchat on the board because you will come in on page 1- go to the bottom of the page and start reading pages 15-20 (approx) or the archives.

hiliairyh

03-16-2004, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Italiano
hil, try accessing the last pages of MKchat on the board because you will come in on page 1- go to the bottom of the page and start reading pages 15-20 (approx) or the archives.

It is so much easier if you just give me a link. thanks

apache88

03-16-2004, 02:07 AM

MY GOD, I can't believe what I have read, I can't believe even the sweet gesture in the form of donation (nevermind that it was the excess money from the fund raised originally for the medal) given by MKF was frowned upon, criticized...ec. If I were a total stranger to MKF, I would think it must be one hell of a horror board or that MKF members are evil. This is so unfair, so unfair. Such collective criticism hurled at the board as a whole due to some black sheep.

I'm not even an active poster there, I have posted much more at Golden Skate and here than I have in an entire year at MKF. I lurk there very often though. What I have seen there is but a closely knit family comprised of very sensible, sweet Michelle fans. There are black sheep no doubt. But so are there at other boards like Sasha forum, Tara foum..etc (on that particular Tara forum, even the administrator would take part in bashing Michelle, I stopped browsing almost instantly). For those who say only MKF is capable of bashing, wanna bet? For every basher you find for me at MKF, I can give you bashers from other boards, in the same ratio relative to the total members. Because MKF happens to have 6000+ members, with the same ratio, the bashers in absolute number definitely dwarf other boards and this unfortunately gives the wrong impression. I'm totally disappointed with some of the posts that show such total lack of objective and unbiased opinions. I have never for once formed any general impression of Sasha or Tara fans due to some obnoxious posts I have read. Why can't everyone do the same? And what's with "typical of Michelle fans who are quick to jump to her defense everytime her skating is critiqued". Again wanna bet with me, let's go to every skater-specific board and start a thread that critiques the skater and see the responses. I don't think that's necessary.

Kemy

03-16-2004, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Bondo
I reserve all booing for the judges, the one group that it seems is tactful to boo ;).

You forgot Cinquanta.

Woofy2

03-16-2004, 09:39 AM

it seems to me that some posters' underlying reasons for this debate is: michelle v.s. sasha, no matter how you cut it. that's fine to play favorites. of course, there are a few that enjoy both of these skaters, like sk8cynic. :)

by sk8cynic:

"Comparing figure skating to fan behavior at a Lakers game is laughable "

could you please elaborate on why? why is it okay to boo and scream when the opposing team attempts to score? why can't SOME fans do the same in skating events? are you holding figure skating on higher standard in terms of fans' expressions?

"bunch of histrionic banshees shrieking during a program from start to finish."

lol. let's not try to exaggerate this to further your argument. come on, how many times have you seen fans scream and yell "from start to finish" on a skater's performance, except for claps, high 5s, & screams for each jump/element landed? certainly not boos.

"irritating as hell when I have attended football and/or basketball games"

deal with it. it's being part of a live audience. would you say the same if your team actually scored? :)

"You just don't like the fact that the posters you singled out are right."

lol...i may be wrong here, but i'm questioning the intention of these posters' replies. i wonder if their viewpoints are similiar if their faves are somehow not diminished by michelle's skating. the original intention was to talk about michelle historic achievements, how we started to talk about fan's bad behavior is beyond me.

this whole debate on fan's bad behavior is quite amusing, actually. i'm not familir with incidents from some MKF posters, and i may not approve of their actions either, but we need to put everything in perspective here. ever watch will and grace? this whole debate is like a sitcom; i could totally see jack doing all these crazy things, and i'll just be laughing all the way thru. you know how catty he could be; no real harm intended. what's wrong with a little fun here and there, when no one's health/saftey is in danger?

as a broader debate, i would like to hear from some of you what's appropriate/inappropriate of fan's behavior in SKATINGHEVENTS/COMPEITIIONS. so far, we have:

1. "front of me because of all the yelling fans on their feet": tell that to nancy kerrigan of michelle's LP performance at '04 US nationals. :) 'nuf said.

2. "tearing down opposing skaters posters and signs": i don't approve either; it's just plain not cool.

3. "upsetting behavior and interfering with paid spectators": upsetting in what way? when the biggest competitor to your fave did an outstanding job?

well, you get the idea. :)

Kwanisaswan

03-16-2004, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by apache88
MY GOD, I can't believe what I have read, I can't believe even the sweet gesture in the form of donation (nevermind that it was the excess money from the fund raised originally for the medal) given by MKF was frowned upon, criticized...ec. If I were a total stranger to MKF, I would think it must be one hell of a horror board or that MKF members are evil. This is so unfair, so unfair. Such collective criticism hurled at the board as a whole due to some black sheep.

I'm not even an active poster there, I have posted much more at Golden Skate and here than I have in an entire year at MKF. I lurk there very often though. What I have seen there is but a closely knit family comprised of very sensible, sweet Michelle fans. There are black sheep no doubt. But so are there at other boards like Sasha forum, Tara foum..etc (on that particular Tara forum, even the administrator would take part in bashing Michelle, I stopped browsing almost instantly). For those who say only MKF is capable of bashing, wanna bet? For every basher you find for me at MKF, I can give you bashers from other boards, in the same ratio relative to the total members. Because MKF happens to have 6000+ members, with the same ratio, the bashers in absolute number definitely dwarf other boards and this unfortunately gives the wrong impression. I'm totally disappointed with some of the posts that show such total lack of objective and unbiased opinions. I have never for once formed any general impression of Sasha or Tara fans due to some obnoxious posts I have read. Why can't everyone do the same? And what's with "typical of Michelle fans who are quick to jump to her defense everytime her skating is critiqued". Again wanna bet with me, let's go to every skater-specific board and start a thread that critiques the skater and see the responses. I don't think that's necessary.

Thabnk you apache99 and woofy2 for keeping it "fair and balanced". It seems to me this thread has morphed from "Kwan shugs about historical achievements" to "lets bash MKF".:roll: MKF has really taken an, unfair beating. Also note that at MKF there is a rule agains board draggging and talking about another skating board.

Let me reinterate:
The Vast majority of MKFers are sweet, kind people who want a online place to gush over Michelle(isn't that within their rights??)

luvtoskate

03-16-2004, 10:20 AM

First of all, I attended Worlds last year and witnessed a small group of Sasha fans booing MK. And while I did not attend Nationals this year, I have heard reports of bad behavior by Sasha fans as well (including booing and nasty comments). I personally find this behavior both immature and unacceptable, but unfortunately it happens.

IMO, some of the comments in this thread have gone totally over the top and will do nothing but promote similar behavior at future events (i.e., Italiano’s comment about “just wait until Worlds” – what’s that suppose to mean??). I’m not a regular poster at MKF but do read there quite frequently. I agree that it’s basically a nice Board with a close knit group of posters. Unfortunately, as with most sites on the Net, some just post there every now and again to stir things up. I have seen posts made there by certain respondents to this thread which to me were made solely for this intent (including one in particular who did everything in their power to stop the use of pompoms). I really don’t see what the big deal is (unless you are a fan of another skater and just don’t like people cheering for their favorite).

Like I said before, I wasn’t at Nationals and cannot comment on that, but I have read comments by Jenny Kirk, Amber Corwin and others that they enjoy the support (there was a pairs team who thanked MKF in particular in their online journal, but I can’t think of their name at the moment).

I’m sure the Security people at events are more than capable of handling anyone who gets out of control – that’s their job. And since this didn’t happen, things couldn’t have been that bad – JMHO.

P.S. to Woofy2 – Great posts!!

turtlehead

03-16-2004, 01:13 PM

As I posted here earlier, and which nobody, including Woofy2 seems to have read, all skaters have their strange and wacked out fans. Booing and being disrespectful isn't unique to Michelle Kwan fans. And I am sure that a majority of the fans of ALL skaters act appropriate. You can't blame the whole group of fans for the behavior of a few. Each person is responsible for their own actions, especially if they are adults. I just have to wonder though, how many fans were at nationals? And how many of the unruley MKF fans were there? From what I understand there were a lot of MKF member there in comparison to fans congregating from other skater specific boards, but in the grand scheme of things, not a large number in comparison to the number of people there in general. I have to wonder if they were really all that bad during the competition. Or was it that they were bad at practices? Or was the bad behavior limited to "tearing down signs" and being loud? I don't think tearing down a sign would ruin someones enjoyment of nationals. But if there was a crowd of, let's say 30 MKF members, they must have been REALLY loud and obnoxious to get so much attnetion over 2 months after the event. and it seems to me that if they were really that bad, security would have been forced to do something about it. I don't doubt for a second that some MKF memebrs acted inappropriate, but I don't think that they all did. And I don't think that the owners are responsible for a code of conduct for these members. I am also not stupid enough to think that only Michelle Kwan fans are capable of inappropriate behavior.

peaches

03-16-2004, 02:20 PM

My last post on this because Woofy is trying to distract posters by claiming this is some sort of grudge match and turn this into a discussion of Sasha vs. Michelle when that's not the issue at all.

My concerns aren't, for the most part, with the obnoxious *public* behaviour, although that was a pain in the butt and certainly took away from the enjoyment of the events. My real concerns are ones of security and the fact that there are people out there from the MKF, that think that its ok to make threats against other posters and skaters. Talk about a grudge! Who would stoop to such a low level? And why? Michelle was the favourite to win, so why threats against Sasha? One email I got was chillingly similar to Woofy's post about booing, screaming, and distracting opponents as well as geting in peoples faces if Michelle won. Why do things like that? They can't rely on the athletes to do their job, they're so insecure about their favourite that they must interevene on their behalf? Where does that kind of sick mentality come from?

For me, this was never about one skater vs. another, it was about basic safety, security, common decency, and respect of athletes. Seeing as how I didn't receive threats from any other skating board, my beef obviously lies with the MKF (not Michelle herself, I like her just fine). Anyone trying to turn this into a Sasha vs. Michelle issue obviously hasn't been paying much attention or has severe reading comprehension problems. This issue is not about the skaters, it's about the fans.

Italiano

03-16-2004, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by hiliairyh
It is so much easier if you just give me a link. thanks .................................................. .................................................. ................................hil, that is the link. The mods locked the thread on MKchat and that was like a month ago so you will have to go to the back pages to read it. It is quite long. There are no other links as this happened on MKF concerning their own behavior at Nationals and other events. There is also a locked thread concerning it in their forum feedback section. To Apache and Woolfy, people are discussing MKF behavior at events not online bashing. The online MKF thread comments are in connection with what happened at Nationals and the extent to which MKF went to cover it up. People who dared to comment had threatening pms sent to them and some were banned for daring to say they were there when security was called at Nationals. This is not about cheering for your favorite when they do a jump, this is about unacceptable behavior that was so far out it became a concern for other paying spectators and finally security. Unfortunetly, this band of MKF'ers are the same group that shows up representing the forum at all events and makes the viewing and enjoyment of other people very hard. In the future they will be monitored more than any other groups as they have finally crossed the line and made themselves a public concern and a security concern. That is what I ment by future events. They only have themselves to blame, nobody forced them to act this way. Michelle is in no way responsible.

hiliairyh

03-16-2004, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
I think there is a distinct issue with a subset of the population of MK Fans

A subset of fans, so you mean some Michelle fan, then I won't argue, but some posters did lump all Kwan fans and MKF in general as "cult", and I think that was not right.

So we are talking about 2 things:

1. Threatening behavior: that is bad and should be reported.

2. Loud and booings, that is not appropriate, but I have been to enough skating events and sports events to see fans from other skaters did the same. Michelle received harassments too, I never assumed that they were Sasha fans, since they did not wear any t shirts or paint the name Sasha on their foreheads. You can not convinced me that these inappropriate behavior including threats are subset Kwan fans specific. Didn't Michelle Kwan received some death threats some time ago?

IMO calling the medal and charity project as "craze" is over the line.

Italiano, I don't have the time to go through pages and pages of threads at MKF. I guess if posters are more fair in their approach of telling us what happen without the overgeneralization of all Kwan fans or putting down the medal and charity project as craze and tacky gift, then I will give more credit to the rest of the things they are trying to say. :)

This thread is not about Michelle vs another skater, it is actually about an article on Michlle. The first available chance it was detoured into Michelle fans, and it turned in some ways into Michelle fans vs fans of other skaters too.

Actually one of the creepiest incident I have seen was 2001 Skate America, a creepy Sasha fan approached her with a gift and this guy must have done that before, I saw real fear in her eyes as she signaled Nicks for help saying something like "It is him again" . Nicks yelled at the guy and threatened to call security if he did not leave Sasha alone. That guy looked about late fifties.

turtlehead

03-16-2004, 09:28 PM

http://pub165.ezboard.com/fmichellekwanforummkfanchat.showMessage?topicID=21 562.topic

http://pub165.ezboard.com/fmichellekwanforummkfanchat.showMessage?topicID=21 508.topic

I hope that this is allowed. Here are links to two threads over at the MKF about this whole thing. I posted them here because people were asking for links and assuming that it never happened because no links were provided. Do with them what you will and draw your own conclusions.

Kwanisaswan

03-16-2004, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
MKF is a location that brews this bad behavior for some reason and makes Michelle fans much more than any other skater's fans, likely to misbeahave.

Talk about hyperbole!! Bondo,tell us what you really think...

Don't paint with a board brush MKF as this crazy cult. Those comments are just simply out-of-line and entirely over-the-top. I will not let internet rumors start about MKF. It is not the place you just described. I don't know what place you are going to Bondo but MKF is not a location that "brews bad behavior". I don't know where you are getting that from. One could assume that you beef is with Michelle fans as you feel that they don't have a right to a online home to gush over their favorite.

Look Bondo, nobody said sashafans.com is a place the brews bad hbehavior and makes sasha fans more likely to misbehave. so I really don't understand the attacks against MKF specificly. If fans at nationals were out of line attack THEM not MKF. Bashing MKF is simply misdirected anger any fair minded person can see that. Your attacks aginst MKF make you look bias to you pre-determined opinion that MK fans are crazies and Michelle Kwan is overrated. Fine that is your opinion but the hyperbole used to attack the honor of MKF is not helpful to the discussion.

That being said...MKF is a kind-hearted fan website. The vast, vast majority of posters are friendly, kind, and very supportive of Michelle(any suprise there?). Also MKF has rules in place to deal with those that bash other skaters. MKF prides itself on it's a family/community centered posting enviroment. Your lumping of ALL Michelle fans and ludocris comments about MKF is irresponsible and misguided.

Italiano

03-16-2004, 09:38 PM

It is no use for those of us who know what went on at Nationals to continue to debate with people who do not know what went on. Security directly went after clearly marked members of MKF. These people are always clearly idenified as MFK members because they want to be. Now they have become a security risk. They of course deny being singled out but they can't because too many people saw it. Kwanisaswan, MKF is a place of extreme bad behavior. More so than any board I have ever visited. If all they did was gush over Michelle it would be fine but that is not it's sole purpose. They are in the business of tearing down every skater that is even a minor threat to Michelle and also any lady who is not American that dared win the gold medal. Their comments in the past about Katarina, Oksauna, Tara, Sarah and Sasha are worse than any comments made anywhere. Through the last few years, they have called these women sluts, pigs, and many other horrible things. They are in the business of extreme bashing and nothing else. About the medal, I have no opinion either way and never have.

Kwanisaswan

03-16-2004, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Italiano
They are in the business of tearing down every skater that is even a minor threat to Michelle and also any lady who is not American that dared win the gold medal. Their comments in the past about Katarina, Oksauna, Tara, Sarah and Sasha are worse than any comments made anywhere. Through the last few years, they have called these women sluts, pigs, and many other horrible things.

Let's look at this like fair minded adults...

Who is the "they" you are talking about??
MKF is not a "they". I remember the thread about katerina. I defended her to the hilt(wittisqueen88!) Individual poster may have said bad things but not MKF. By useing the word "they" you are lumping collectively MKF into one board group. That is unfair. This debate is useless because is always comes back to individual posters who you disagree with, the entire MKF should not be judged by those individual posters. MKF is a community of over 6000. Lumping them all together is not fair.

Italiano

03-16-2004, 10:47 PM

Kwanisaswan, by "they"I am not only refering to the many posters that see nothing wrong with this type of vicious name calling but also the moderators who allow it. The problem is that the worst bashers are the moderators personal friends and part of the main group that show up at events to continue their rampages agaist whoever is Michelle's latest rival. It is the responsibility of the moderators to see that Olympic gold medalists and all other skaters are not called these names but the MKF moderators choose to do nothing.

Kwanisaswan

03-16-2004, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
All I know is the couple of times I've posted at MKF I've been insulted and told not to post there...how friendly.

Certainly I get response (both positive and negative) on the other forums but nothing like the pure vitriol faced from MKF.

Concidering how friendly MKF is and your feelings about MK skating I wonder what is was that you posted, Bondo, to get such a response, care to share??

Italiano

03-16-2004, 10:51 PM

kwanisaswan. There is nothing friendly about MKF, read my above posts.

Kemy

03-17-2004, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by Bondo
All I know is the couple of times I've posted at MKF I've been insulted and told not to post there...how friendly.

Certainly I get response (both positive and negative) on the other forums but nothing like the pure vitriol faced from MKF.

Bondo,
You reputation probably preceded you in those situation, if I recall correctly. Someone who has admitted to critiquing Michelle more to irk her fans would not be accepted at MKF. Am I right? I can think of another forum where you weren't exactly welcomed with open arms either.

Kemy

03-17-2004, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Italiano
Kwanisaswan, by "they"I am not only refering to the many posters that see nothing wrong with this type of vicious name calling but also the moderators who allow it. The problem is that the worst bashers are the moderators personal friends and part of the main group that show up at events to continue their rampages agaist whoever is Michelle's latest rival. It is the responsibility of the moderators to see that Olympic gold medalists and all other skaters are not called these names but the MKF moderators choose to do nothing.

How do you know so much about MKF Italiano if you don't like it? Compared to the majority of posts, there is very little bashing that actually goes on. It's just the few bad posts that raise the ire of people and get remembered. The worst thing you can say there is that MKF tends to critique other skaters without critiquing their own Michelle. But that's not bashing.

loveskating

03-17-2004, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by NorthernLite
Because many of y'all weren't Sarah fans, you may not have noticed Kwanatics did that constantly re: Sarah too.

I especially recall "learning" from MKF that Sarah and Robin had stolen the last part of Michelle's free skate and inserted it into the revamped Daphnis and Chloe at SLC. I guess when you're dysfunctionally bitter about Sarah having *skated* better than Michelle, all you're left with is screaming "copyright infringement." :P

[B]

I hear you about the uber-worship of several skaters. I haven't been to events where behavior by any particular fan group has been out of hand. Just the usual boorish behavior you get at any live event these days.

But you can't totally get away from the Weird Fan Stuff merely watching TV either. During one or more cheesefest broadcasts I've been annoyed by this high-pitched random screeching from a few fans during MK's skating.

I think even the general crowd response to Kwan comes partly from people who are just excited to see "Michelle Kwan," not from those who can really discriminate about what they are seeing on the ice. You could say the same thing about several skaters who've reached a certain level of fame.

I agree, Sarah and many before her who challenged or beat Michelle got bashed to smithereens, including Tara and Maria...a MICROSCOPE is put to their skating, while the Kwan UBERFANS bash ANYONE who puts even an eyeglass to MK's skating!

At Campbells, about on half of the Kwan fans popped out of their seats after her performance (about 1/4 to 1/3 of the rink), although it was a highly substandard performance...she missed her first lutz combo and badly popped her second lutz, and was tight, other problems as well. I was prepared to stand up for her if she skated well, although I am not a big fan anymore...but her UBERFANS popped out of their seats as if she had a great skate! I thought that was insulting to her, really! Its as if they don't SEE her at all...they just see the name and the hype, not Michelle, the skater, the person.

Then those two ladies, who earlier had called Sasha a "snot" popped up out of their seats, and glared at me because I remained seated. I just said, "look that was not a great skate by any stretch of the imagination...she will skate better in the future, and certainly has in the past."

loveskating

03-17-2004, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Kwanisaswan
Concidering how friendly MKF is and your feelings about MK skating I wonder what is was that you posted, Bondo, to get such a response, care to share??

Oh, PUHLEEZE! He probably didn't say anthing! I was once bashed to smithereens and for months on a now defunct forum because I was trying to kindly console the Kwan fanatics after the SP at Worlds in 2001...they were claiming that the judges hated MK because they put her 3rd out of the SP, so I just pointed out that MK slightly two footed and flutzed her lutz while Irina and Maria were perfect. I told them that MK was a strong LP skater, and that she might win, and that the judges did not hate her...STILL they had a FIT! They denied that this happened, denied that MK made the mistakes; they called me a "kwan hater" and continually bashed me! Of course, I was right, MK did have a very great LP skate, flawless and the best presentation I've ever seen her put out, and did win in fact.

No good deed goes unpunished, not from the Kwan Uberfans, anyway! I guess that is when I just gave up on the Kwan fanatics...YUCK! So biased they can't even tell when you are trying to help them! (again, not all of Kwan's fans are uberfans).

Kemy

03-17-2004, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by loveskating
I agree, Sarah and many before her who challenged or beat Michelle got bashed to smithereens, including Tara and Maria...a MICROSCOPE is put to their skating, while the Kwan UBERFANS bash ANYONE who puts even an eyeglass to MK's skating!
I've seen you putting a microscope to Michelle's skating of late. Does that make you a Michelle anti-uberfan? I guess you were NEVER guilty of bashing another skater you beat your favorite in an important competition, eh?

People were cheering Sasha at Nationals after her fall. Are they considered uberfans? Nope! Just regular fans who wanted to show their support to their favorite.
Originally posted by loveskating
Then those two ladies, who earlier had called Sasha a "snot" popped up out of their seats, and glared at me because I remained seated. I just said, "look that was not a great skate by any stretch of the imagination...she will skate better in the future, and certainly has in the past."

THIS is uberfan activity though. :??
Originally posted by loveskating
Oh, PUHLEEZE! He probably didn't say anthing! I was once bashed to smithereens and for months on a now defunct forum because I was trying to kindly console the Kwan fanatics after the SP at Worlds in 2001...they were claiming that the judges hated MK because they put her 3rd out of the SP, so I just pointed out that MK slightly two footed and flutzed her lutz while Irina and Maria were perfect.

No good deed goes unpunished, not from the Kwan Uberfans, anyway! I guess that is when I just gave up on the Kwan fanatics...YUCK! SICKOS who are so biased they can't even tell when you are trying to help them! (again, not all of Kwan's fans are uberfans).

I guess there's a reason why the forum you visited is now defunct, eh? This thread has been heated, but people have refrained from calling others names. I would suggest that you do the same. Idolizing someone to the point of not seeing their faults does not make someone a "SICKO" as you so charmingly put it. There are to many REAL sickos in the world to call a fanatic that (unless they were to stark stalking in a totally illegal sense.)

Woofy2

03-17-2004, 11:06 AM

lol..what an awesome thread! if anything, i'm getting so much entertainment from reading these posts form all sides. as mentioned, this whole debate reminds me of will & grace (and seinfield)...we are all acting like children. we are all whiners and losers. :) we just need to take a breather and chill. i'm glad that we are all so passionate about our sport, but there are far worse behaviorial display in the world, like what happend in spain a week ago. let's put everything into perspective here, people! :)

if we wanna talk about what's bad fan behavior, i suggest we start another thread; this one is about michelle's achievments.

loveskating

03-17-2004, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Kemy
I've seen you putting a microscope to Michelle's skating of late. Does that make you a Michelle anti-uberfan? I guess you were NEVER guilty of bashing another skater you beat your favorite in an important competition, eh?

No, I like to put a microscope to everyone's skating...because I like to learn everything about skating.

People were cheering Sasha at Nationals after her fall. Are they considered uberfans? Nope! Just regular fans who wanted to show their support to their favorite.

Oh, you misunderstand my point! At Campbells I CHEERED Michelle, and all the skaters, a number of whom fell...my previous post was about POPPING OUT of your seat, a standing ovation. I always cheer for all the skaters, sometimes I pop out of my seat for a great performance, sometimes I just stand up, there ARE degrees...and MK at Campbells just did not skate well, did not deserve a standing ovation, much less people popping out of their seats! I'm sure she knew it too.

I guess there's a reason why the forum you visited is now defunct, eh? This thread has been heated, but people have refrained from calling others names. I would suggest that you do the same. Idolizing someone to the point of not seeing their faults does not make someone a "SICKO" as you so charmingly put it. There are to many REAL sickos in the world to call a fanatic that (unless they were to stark stalking in a totally illegal sense.)

I did not call anyone in this thread a name, but I agree, that word was thoughtless and wrong of me as applied to that situation and those fanatical posters long ago who would rather, apparently, think the judges hated MK than to think that she simply two footed her lutz combo!! I have edited it out. Thanks for the helpful criticism. However, some of the recent activities described in this thread by Kwan Uberfans are scary, very scary, and quite cultish.

BTW, FYI that forum's demise had nothing to do with me.

kwanette

03-17-2004, 12:50 PM

Wasn't MK third after the sp at the 00Worlds for her ADITL program? I believe she had a wide swinging leg on her 3 flip.

I think that she flutzed/two-footed at the 01 Worlds, EOE sp, where she ended up second behind Irina.

Kemy

03-17-2004, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by loveskating
BTW, FYI that forum's demise had nothing to do with me.

Sorry that my post implied that...I meant that it's the behavior of those people there that caused it's own demise.

apache88

03-17-2004, 10:33 PM

What infuriates me is when people make sweeping statements. It's tantamount to saying muslim is an evil religion or that its followers are evil in nature because most of the terrorist attacks have been committed by muslims. Kids usually make sweeping statements and I don't believe most of those who are guilty here are kids and if they are I can understand.

I find it both hilarious and disgusting when the very same posters who criticize Kwaniacs of certain online bad behaviour are practicing exactly just that. Quotes like "typical Michelle fans who can't accept critique of Michelle's skating....etc...etc" just amuse me as I have seen these same posters behave the same way when their favourite skaters are critiqued. Again if you challenge my claim here, I can pull out those posts from the archive from here or other forums. At this juncture, that's not necessary unless you really want me too. I'm saying all this because it's sickening to make groundless allegations against a group as a whole. I don't care if you criticize just those guilty persons but please don't conveniently lump it up and direct it at the whole group.

Something to ponder, if you think you have the right to label others as uberfans, fanatics or what-have-you based on your perception then they have the right to label you as haters based on their perception. You call a poster a uberfan based on his/her posts then why do you jump off your seat when the other party calls you a hater based on your posts? They could be wrong about you the same way you could be wrong about them. What makes you think you're right and they are wrong? ;)

Italiano

03-18-2004, 03:49 AM

Nobody is making false allegations. The MKF behavior at Nationals was witnessed by too many people not to know what went on. Security was called. They were clearly idintifing themselves as MKF. While this group doesn't represent the entire MKF board, they do represent them at all events because of their horrible behavior and their large MKF signs. People are recognizing their bad behavior and they give interviews to the press, inbetween tearing down signs and causing all manner of arena problems. They always identify themseves as MKF . Then when everyone returned home and to the board they started denying everything and banning people who dared to say what they saw. The mods locked all threads pertaining to the issue and so it stays, total and complete denial.

hiliairyh

03-18-2004, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Woofy2
lol..what an awesome thread! if anything, i'm getting so much entertainment from reading these posts form all sides. as mentioned, this whole debate reminds me of will & grace (and seinfield)...we are all acting like children. we are all whiners and losers. :) we just need to take a breather and chill. i'm glad that we are all so passionate about our sport, but there are far worse behaviorial display in the world, like what happend in spain a week ago. let's put everything into perspective here, people! :)

if we wanna talk about what's bad fan behavior, i suggest we start another thread; this one is about michelle's achievments.

ITA about LOL, and this thread is enterataining. It is supposed to be about a Michelle artticle. The first chance some posters get, they change it completely in the direction of Michelle fans. An over arching broad stroke generalization of Michelle fans. I agree that security issue is important. In no way are MK fans the only offender. I don't mind if they are using MKF or some MK fans as an example, but be fair minded enough to acknowledge that there are bad behavior from fans of other skaters. If skater security is the prime focus then they should pay some attention to creepy stalkers like the one I saw stalking SC at SA 2001.

BTW turtlehead thanks for the links to MKF threads. LOL, some people are talking about hysterectomy!! Yes, it is entertaining.

I guess by now it is totally hopeless to try to turn this thread back to original topic?