Michelle's Spreadeagle Quality?

[adrianchew]

Look at this picture...

http://www.jayadeff.com/US2004/IMG_1127.jpg

The left foot is on a much deeper edge than the right foot. Its like she's using her right foot more in a forward glide position than a true edge that will form the circular pattern of the spreadeagle. Try tracing an imaginary line from the pick of the left blade to the pick of the right blade and the blades along the way, you don't get a nice ( pattern that a spreadeagle should have.

Contrast that to this picture...

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003skateamerica/exhibition/ac-scex02.jpg

And you can easily see how Sasha has much more even edges in the spreadeagle and toepick to toepick you can for a very nice ) pattern.

The other problem is the bend she does at the waist, which is the sign of a not so good spreadeagle...

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_g_spreadeagle.htm

The two things that Michelle doesn't do right is...

1) "the 2 feet are in a single line relative to that travel (they make a single tracing on the ice)."

2) "In a well-executed Spread Eagle, the skater's body is in a straight line. Many skaters who have not quite mastered the Spread Eagle bend at the waist, which gives a "butt sticking out" appearance which is not attractive."

Let the discussions begin - I know the topic of spirals by both skaters have been discussed ad nauseum, so how so Michelle and Sasha's spreadeagles match up?

[Debbie S]

Oh come on, Adrian!;)

Michelle does not break at the waist. Her shoulders are in line with her hips.

The angle of the 2 photos is different, which makes it hard to compare. The pic of Michelle, especially, doesn't give you a good look at the edges and feet b/c it's taken from the front and not the side. I think the pic of Sasha is simply better at picking up this detail.

Keep in mind that we're not sure at what point in the spread eagle each picture was taken - getting into position, during the move, or coming out of the move, so let's take all of our analyses with a grain of salt.

At first glance, it appears that Michelle may be on deeper edges than Sasha, so she appears to be leaning further back. But, as I said, the picture angles make it hard to compare the two.

[adrianchew]

Just another photo to look at - bad technique should be found in different events/programs and such is the case with Michelle's spreadeagle...

http://www.pbase.com/image/25350558

Try imagining how those two blades are going to get that single tracing - it just isn't going to happen.

[peaches]

I really appreciate a lot of things Michelle does, but the eagle is not one of her finer moments in any program. The fact that she's bowlegged as all getout detracts from it, it's not her fault, just the way she's built. And she does have the irritating habit of breaking at the hips or waist which makes it easier for her to get on the edge. She does a lot of things well, but the spread eagle is not a good move for her. I think in her case the ina bauer would be a better fit.

[Little Bit]

I do like to watch Michelle skate. If you are going to use the photos posted then in all fairness Sasha's look better. But you also need to keep in mind what Debbie S said. What part of the spread eagle are they doing going in or coming out. The angles are different. Typically Sasha stands tall, no break at her waist while Michelle does break at the waist. Not much though I have seen much worse!

You should have done a poll with this one. :lol: Seams like a can of worms have been opened.:roll:
Remember to just have fun with this and not take it to personally!

[adrianchew]

Find me some photos of Michelle that you think show a very good example of both her feet making the same tracing over the ice. It can't be that hard finding the picture proof? ;)

I know all about how pictures can lie - but they can also point out a deficiency. Its a beginning point for people to start wondering and forming an opinion. I'm just curious why people pick apart certain little details of some skaters and don't seem to want to question if say Michelle doesn't really do that great a spreadeagle? ;)

This shot was taken just before the other shot with her hands up in the air...

http://www.pbase.com/image/25350557

Again, you cannot form that straight line tracing. ;)

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Debbie S
...Michelle does not break at the waist. Her shoulders are in line with her hips.
The angle of the 2 photos is different, which makes it hard to compare. The pic of Michelle, especially, doesn't give you a good look at the edges and feet b/c it's taken from the front and not the side. I think the pic of Sasha is simply better at picking up this detail...

normally (well, maybe that's not a good term for me to use) i don't get into these sasha vs. michele things because i compare them not on a technical level but on a performance psychology level.

but here i make an exception because the spread eagle maneuver is particularly interesting (as is the bauer-sp?-).

i agree totally with adrian here. while the angle of the photos are very different, i still see that michele is, in fact, breaking at the waist. sasha has an incredible turnout.

this is physiological. i have noticed that no matter how fine a skater, if the physical structure of the hips won't let you do an easy turnout, no amount of training will change that. i've seen little kids just go out an do perfect outside edge spread eagles without any effort or practice. mature, strong skaters with different pelvic structures, can't do a respectible one no matter how hard they try.

i've also observed that the ability to perform such an elegant outside edge spread eagle as sasha's doesn't conclude who is the better skater, but only that if the skater can't do one they shouldn't include it in their program. (hint, michele!)

i shall duck and run now.

[danibellerika]

I actually kinda always noticed that before you said something adrian(and then seeing that tosca pic and her left knee bending like that in a funky looking fashion REALLY made me know something was up). Even in this pic

http://www.jayadeff.com/US2003Kwan3F.jpg

it looks like her left blade is barely on the ice so she pretty much drags the left leg while gliding on the right foot(which just so happens to be the back one so she's gliding from the back). I had been checking out her spread eagles and stuff lately actually because when I start doing outside ones, I want to know what parts of the blade should be used. Guess I should discard Michelle as a good example on how to do it correctly.

[peaches]

Originally posted by adrianchew


2) "In a well-executed Spread Eagle, the skater's body is in a straight line. Many skaters who have not quite mastered the Spread Eagle bend at the waist, which gives a "butt sticking out" appearance which is not attractive."



In defense of skaters, sometimes arching the back can give the bubble butt look as well as the break at the waist. Sasha stands up very tall and straight, but arches her lower back and sometimes that makes her butt stick out just a wee bit. I'd rather see the butt tucked, but if it has to be out there, I think it's more tolerable to see it by way of a lower back arch than by breaking at the waist. Just my humble preference.

Dani, you're right, Michelle is hardly on her blade at all and I think that's because it's a weak move for her and she's letting one leg do the work. Kudos to her for trying it, but again I think the bauer would be the better move and wouldn't bring attention to her bowleggedness. (sorry to harp on the bowlegged thing, but the moves that call attention to it really bother me.)

[danibellerika]

I noticed that too with Sasha! I think the arch looks better than the waist break as well. Here's a good pic of it:
http://store3.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1782_207998040

and it goes without saying that her legs are in line with e/o.

[peaches]

Originally posted by danibellerika
I noticed that too with Sasha! I think the arch looks better than the waste too though. Here's a good pic of it:
http://store3.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1782_207998040

Awesome pic! She's secure enough in the move to lean into the curve without breaking in the middle and that's what I like to see.

[what?meworry?]

so, i'm supposed to keep this polite i suppose. but i find i really hard to understand, looking at the latest examples of mk, how anyone can continue to insist that mk has a quality outside edge spreadeagle.

and, by the very nature of the maneuver, your butt is there, so the sasha photo with the supposed "bubble" butt comment in not valid. you have to draw a line from the top of the head down thru the body. look at the relationship of the head, spine, legs, knees, and feet. it should be straight. sasha's is.

sasha had it, michele does not.

[Kemy]

The first picture is when Michelle transitions from a back spread eagle to a front spread eagle, all of which takes place in less than a second. Michelle also has a habit of bending her knees to get into the spread eagle position before straightening her legs out.

Michelle pics:
http://www.pbase.com/image/25350558
http://www.scratchspin.com/2003/worlds03/fs-0302027.jpg
http://jayadeff.com/Worlds2003Kwan5F.jpg
http://www.dallasnews.com/img/photo/01-03/T_NS_18Girls240832.JPG (good tradcing here)
http://www.jayadeff.com/US2003Kwan3F.jpg

Sasha pics:
http://www.pbase.com/image/25350747
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gall...n/ac-scex02.jpg
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gall...long/Image2.jpg
http://jayadeff.com/Worlds2003Cohen2Q.jpg
http://jayadeff.com/Worlds2003Cohen3Q.jpg


Brian pic: :)
Brian...for fun
http://jayadeff.com/Bacharach/IMG_3233.jpg

It's all a matter of catching the right monent during a spread eagle.

[icyboid]

All seems like a bunch of nitpicking to me.

Although Michelle breaks at the waist, I think her spreadeagle leans back more than Sasha, although both pale in comparison to Boitano.

[what?meworry?]

given the precedent set on this thread for posting a counter, i would politely suggest you find a visual example of your point. put up or, well, you know....(boitano pix?)

[Italiano]

Sasha's is much better.

[hebequeen]

Originally posted by Kemy


http://jayadeff.com/Worlds2003Cohen2Q.jpg
http://jayadeff.com/Worlds2003Cohen3Q.jpg


Wow, she's is practically on a beautiful flat in those pics 8-)

[nyskatefan]

Great pictures kemy ... a much better indication of the quality of her spread eagle.

For the record ... both ladies have gorgeous spread eagles!

[Schmeck]

ewww, Sasha's knees pop to the other side of her legs - to me that's just UGLY!

[Samskate]

It's been my observation that in general, females don't do spread eagles as well as men do. Maybe it has something to do with anatomy, but I've never seen a woman do a spread eagle as well as Brian Boitano or say Paul Wylie. Even Katarina Witt has a slight break at the waist sometimes and she uses spread eagles fairly often in her programs. Anyone else think this is true? If you see pictures of Brian B. when he was younger, his spread eagles weren't great either though! But he sure perfected them as he got older.:)

[peaches]

Originally posted by icyboid
All seems like a bunch of nitpicking to me.

Although Michelle breaks at the waist, I think her spreadeagle leans back more than Sasha, although both pale in comparison to Boitano.

Michelle gets on a deeper outside edge (with one foot anyway, notice the left blade doesn't make full contact with the ice) by breaking at the waist. The fact that she has to break and lean forward to maintain the edge is not good. And she never fully straightens her legs because she can't. Again, it's not her fault, she can't help the way she's built.

Sasha may not be on as deep of an edge, but she's lifting up through her body and is secure enough to push her shoulders back and arch.

Women as a general rule have more turnout in the hips than men, just the way we're built, and are able to do a better eagle in that respect, but they often lack solid secure edges that allow them to really lean back. IMO, no one can touch Boitano. He gets the deep edge, good turnout, and is arrow straight in his line. He has serious skater butt but manages to tuck it under. Wylie has an awesome eagle as well, but he arches like Sasha and therefore the butt stucks out. But, like I said before, better to see butt because of an arched back than because of a break at the waist.

I think it's just a matter of preference, whether you'd rather see bad line on a deep edge or good line on a not-so-deep edge. I prefer the latter, and therefore Sasha's, but hardcore MK fans will probably prefer hers over others simply because she's MK.

[nyskatefan]

" I think it's just a matter of preference, whether you'd rather see bad line on a
deep edge or good line on a not-so-deep edge. I prefer the latter, and
therefore Sasha's, but hardcore MK fans will probably prefer hers over others
simply because she's MK."

Peaches ... I have to say this is just the type of comment that turns what should be a good conversational thread into a snarky one. Why is it if you prefer Sasha's spread eagle, it's because you specifically like the way she does it better ... as opposed to if you prefer MK's spread eagle, it's only because it's MK ... nothing to do with the actual move itself?

[peaches]

Originally posted by nyskatefan

Peaches ... I have to say this is just the type of comment that turns what should be a good conversational thread into a snarky one. Why is it if you prefer Sasha's spread eagle, it's because you specifically like the way she does it better ... as opposed to if you prefer MK's spread eagle, it's only because it's MK ... nothing to do with the actual move itself?

I never said all people who prefer Michelle's eagle prefer it just because she's Michelle, but I think a lot of her, and I'll say it again, hardcore fans will prefer it for just that reason. It's the same reason they like her layback and speed in spins, they just love everything she does.

As I said before, but you *obviously* missed it, some, not all, will prefer a deep edge over a more shallow one and disregard body line. Others will take the shallower edge and better line. It's just a preference.

[WeBeEducated]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Look at this picture...

http://www.jayadeff.com/US2004/IMG_1127.jpg

The left foot is on a much deeper edge than the right foot. Its like she's using her right foot more in a forward glide position than a true edge that will form the circular pattern of the spreadeagle. Try tracing an imaginary line from the pick of the left blade to the pick of the right blade and the blades along the way, you don't get a nice ( pattern that a spreadeagle should have.

Contrast that to this picture...

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003skateamerica/exhibition/ac-scex02.jpg

And you can easily see how Sasha has much more even edges in the spreadeagle and toepick to toepick you can for a very nice ) pattern.

The other problem is the bend she does at the waist, which is the sign of a not so good spreadeagle...

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_g_spreadeagle.htm

The two things that Michelle doesn't do right is...

1) "the 2 feet are in a single line relative to that travel (they make a single tracing on the ice)."

2) "In a well-executed Spread Eagle, the skater's body is in a straight line. Many skaters who have not quite mastered the Spread Eagle bend at the waist, which gives a "butt sticking out" appearance which is not attractive."

Let the discussions begin - I know the topic of spirals by both skaters have been discussed ad nauseum, so how so Michelle and Sasha's spreadeagles match up?
I am glad someone finally pointed this out! I was just talking about it yesterday while my daughter and I were watching the Nats exhibition tape. I said that MK could never do a good spread eagle, and that if I was Mk I would make sure no photos of my second rate, intermediate lady quality spread eagle were published. It is really a problem with her hips and knees. She doesnt have turn out...something Sasha mastered years ago, and something the average skater lacks. MK has one knee bent and her rear sticks outs in her spread eagle, and the truth is , alot of Asian skaters cant do a great spread eagle.
Watching the Nats exhibition again also confirmed for me that Michelle is a very self concious skater when she doesnt have a "role" to play. When she just skates to popular music as she did in the exhibition, there is nothing there.
Jeny Kirk was brilliant in the exhibition, and Sasha was the most soulful I have ever seen her.

[nyskatefan]

peaches ... I did understand what you were saying. It was just the last part of your statement that I thought was unfair. The inference you made was that hardcore MK fans would not look at the move and make a fair judgement ... but instead just like it better because they will say that about everything Michelle does.
If that's not what you meant, I apologize.

[WeBeEducated]

And now that I went back to read all the posts on this subject let me just say that without bothering to compare MK's spread eagle to anyone else, I can tell you that it is wrong. She is not doing a good spread eagle, certainly not a great one. If you look at her spread eagles during the programs you can plainly see one foot barely engages the ice, one knee is always bent, and she isnt in true spread eagle line.
It is one of those elements that she is not good at. Anyone who pretends otherwise is simply being blind to the obvious truth...it isnt brain surgery. it isnt opinion. It is a well defined skill that can be easily judged for quality. MK does not have a great spread eagle and I am sure she is aware of that. Very few skaters have a great spread eagle becasue it takes alot of work in the early days, and Michelle worked on jumps in the early days and not much else, like spins and spirals, and spread eagles. Her original spiral was truely hideous, and I have it on tape. However, at that time Nicole Bobek was doing the most impressive spirals and MK began to work on hers as a SENIOR lady when she had to compete against Nicole. Little by little hers began to improve, but her early days as a senior lady showed low, unstretched, ugly spirals. I have a tape of Sasah as a tiny intermediate lady...her spiral was breathtaking and her spread eagle beautiful. The layback was state of the art. Her jumps were just ok. Those two skaters chose to develop their skating differently. Michelle always worked on jumps, small and reliable, consistant jumps. Her coaches said when she entered the senior ranks that she had no style or musicality. They had to teach her how to express music because it didnt come naturally. I remember Frank Carroll chuckling about it in interviews.
Sasha has natural body line for a skater/dancer and a great sense of musicality. MK has a mediocre spread eagle by any skater's standards.

[Sydney]

I don't blame Michelle for not having a good spread eagle. I think it has a lot to do with what your bone structure and your hip joints. But I agree that she maybe shouldn't include it in her programs, or at least not at key points in the music that would highlight the spread eagle.

I think Josee Chouinard has always had a very good spread eagle. Among the ladies, one of the best. No bending at the waist.

http://www.scratchspin.com/2001/canopen01/fs-0107312.jpg
http://www.scratchspin.com/2002/elvistour02/fs-0205624A.jpg
http://www.scratchspin.com/2003/dreams03/fs-0303103.jpg
Inside edge spread eagle for good measure because the edges are gorgeous (http://www.scratchspin.com/2003/dreams03/fs-0303105.jpg)
Another inside edge spead eagle (http://www.scratchspin.com/2000/canopen00/fs-5085.jpg)

[MQSeries]

Yawn.

We all know that it's difficult for any skater, including MK, to match Sasha's position. MK doesn't have the natural flexibility and open hips to do a text-book spreadeagle. But so what? After watching a MK's performance, most people don't go "That was a really good performance but gee, her spreadeagle's position was distracting." When MK skates, it's the sum of everything she does that move most people, not the individual elements.

Worrying so much about making every positions perfect will make great photographic moments but can also make a program emotionally cold for the audience.

[peaches]

Sydney, those pics are incredible; Josee definitely puts most ladies to shame with that spread eagle!

[WeBeEducated]

Originally posted by MQSeries
Yawn.

We all know that it's difficult for any skater, including MK, to match Sasha's position. MK doesn't have the natural flexibility and open hips to do a text-book spreadeagle. But so what? After watching a MK's performance, most people don't go "That was a really good performance but gee, her spreadeagle's position was distracting." When MK skates, it's the sum of everything she does that move most people, not the individual elements.

Worrying so much about making every positions perfect will make great photographic moments but can also make a program emotionally cold for the audience.
Yes, in fact I do watch skating element by element. I always marvel at the poor quality of Mk's spins and spread eagles, the lack of height in her jumps, and I always wonder how she racks up high points with that kind of skating.
I expect Sasha to start landing her jumps more consistently if she wants to win championships, (she has everything else first rate)and I expect Mk to perform quality spins and elements like spread eagles, and triple triple combinations if she wants to win championships.(she has reliable jumps under pressure)
I wouldnt give it away to anyone who failed to do so.
A champion who is given 6.0 marks should not have such obvious flaws in her basic skating elements.

[Schmeck]

Flaws in basic skating elements? Like the flip/lutz jumps that can't be differentiated? The bent knee in a spin? Lacking flow out of a spin? Could these be considered basic skating flaws as well?

[icedancer2]

I'm finding this conversation HILARIOUS!!

It reminds of back in the late '80s when we had "The Battle of the Brians", there were similar comparative discussions, albeit no internet chat rooms then (thank god).

I remember though, sometime after the '88 Olympics Brian B. and Brian
O. did an impromptu, largely unrehearsed "duet" at Sun Valley. It was an "anything you can do I can do better" type of situation. Brian O. couldn't do a spread eagle for the life of him (closed hips) and Brian B. couldn't do fast, intricate footwork like Orser. Competitively both men competed within their strengths and the results were awesome (and yes, still widely debated).

I see flaws in both Sasha and Michelle's skating, but hey, they both are great and it's what we have, right here, right now (and in a month when the next "showdown" occurs at Worlds).

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
A champion who is given 6.0 marks should not have such obvious flaws in her basic skating elements.

MK gets 6.0s on the artistic impression/presentation mark. If judges were really anal retentive about "perfect" positions then they would deduct points for a "poor" spreadeagle on the technical marks.


And didn't a certain skater get 6.0 at Nationals this year eventhough her landing leg completely skidded sideway on a triple toe and fell?

[icyboid]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
given the precedent set on this thread for posting a counter, i would politely suggest you find a visual example of your point. put up or, well, you know....(boitano pix?)

There's an excellent Brian pic right in the post above my earlier post.

Repeat: http://jayadeff.com/Bacharach/IMG_3233.jpg

[WeBeEducated]

Brian B and Paul Wylie had great spread eagles...and they looked nothing like Michelles, so I think that makes it clear that her spread eagle (and some of her elements) are lacking seriously in quality, that everyone can see it and compare, and that it isnt so complex that the average skaing fan cant see it.
They are glaringly bad examples of major elements, not just on an off day! And they are regularly overlooked. Why?
For her small, low jumps?
For her spiral that she copied from Nicole Bobek?
I have never seen her actual skating quality as superior, before I was a fan of Sasha's even, I thought Michelle was unoriginal and over hyped, and over rated. I think she is very steady under pressure, very confident, and very consistant within her comfort zone.
But great jumps, spins, spread eagles, speed? no, I dont see them as superior elements
Great musicality? no, she acquired the necessary skills to fake it after she was given intense one on one tutoring in choreography
but it is the reason she has never done diverse types of programs...she cant. A great skater like Yagudin can do heavy drama but can also do techno with a real sense of rhythm, and same for Plushenko. They can do jazz, technp, classical, etc because they are great with technique and style and musicality. Michelle does the same thing over and over. Her long program at nats was literally empty of choreography and expresion. She could have been skating to anything, as long as it was somewhat impersonal

[danibellerika]

Originally posted by hebequeen
Wow, she's is practically on a beautiful flat in those pics 8-)

That was at Worlds and I was there when she did it. Her spread eagle is on a flat because she was purposely doing the pattern straight across ice(and not in a circle, which she'd been doing for the whole season up until there) and out of that she did her 3 toe.

[hebequeen]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Brian B and Paul Wylie had great spread eagles...and they looked nothing like Michelles, so I think that makes it clear that her spread eagle (and some of her elements) are lacking seriously in quality, that everyone can see it and compare, and that it isnt so complex that the average skaing fan cant see it.
They are glaringly bad examples of major elements, not just on an off day! And they are regularly overlooked. Why?
For her small, low jumps?
For her spiral that she copied from Nicole Bobek?
I have never seen her actual skating quality as superior, before I was a fan of Sasha's even, I thought Michelle was unoriginal and over hyped, and over rated. I think she is very steady under pressure, very confident, and very consistant within her comfort zone.
But great jumps, spins, spread eagles, speed? no, I dont see them as superior elements
Great musicality? no, she acquired the necessary skills to fake it after she was given intense one on one tutoring in choreography
but it is the reason she has never done diverse types of programs...she cant. A great skater like Yagudin can do heavy drama but can also do techno with a real sense of rhythm, and same for Plushenko. They can do jazz, technp, classical, etc because they are great with technique and style and musicality. Michelle does the same thing over and over. Her long program at nats was literally empty of choreography and expresion. She could have been skating to anything, as long as it was somewhat impersonal
Let's put it ths way. Cohen doesn't do better than Kawn in any of the catagories mentioned above (and actually does worse in some), except for having better extension, which I (more often than not) find disturbing and unnatural because her body just looks so rigid and unfluid. So I guess you are fan of hers just because of her extension.
As for the spread-eagle, her spread-eagle is pretty poor in that she is practically on the flat and has to maintain balance by breaking at the hip/waist so she doesn't fall backward, while Kwan only has breaks at the knee and a much slighter break at the hips, yet her lean of the blade and entire body is twice larger than Cohen's. Kwan's balance is achieved by doing the spread-eagle at a much higher speed than Cohen, which allows her to defy gravity for a short while thus achieving the lean.
Frankly both Cohen and Kwan bore me, and watching them is just a matter of who bores me more.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Great musicality? no, she acquired the necessary skills to fake it after she was given intense one on one tutoring in choreography
but it is the reason she has never done diverse types of programs...she cant. A great skater like Yagudin can do heavy drama but can also do techno with a real sense of rhythm, and same for Plushenko. They can do jazz, technp, classical, etc because they are great with technique and style and musicality. Michelle does the same thing over and over. Her long program at nats was literally empty of choreography and expresion. She could have been skating to anything, as long as it was somewhat impersonal

No, I don't think she had "intense turtoring in choreography"... no one has "intense tutoring in choreography" unless they are planning on becoming a choreographer, or dance teacher, and even then the concept strikes me as rather strange. It takes years of study to become a choreographer. Michelle is not a choreographer. Neither is Sasha. That's not to say that they may each make major contributions to the choreographed pieces they skate, but they are not "choreographers". What you may be referring to is the period where Michelle blossomed into a lyrical skater... when she first started to feel the music and express it... it was much talked at the time.

And, back on this divisive topic of MK's spread eagle vs. Sasha's, it looks to me like you can find fault with anyone and can slant the argument any way you want based on the pictures you select. Well, argue away, you guys... whatever makes you happy...

[Dustin]

Originally posted by hebequeen
As for the spread-eagle, her spread-eagle is pretty poor in that she is practically on the flat.

With all due respect, I really need to ask you what you are looking at? All of the following pictures are on a deep secure edge:

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003skateamerica/exhibition/ac-scex02.jpg
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003skateamerica/exhibition/ac-scex03.jpg
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003worlds/exhibition/fs-0301835A.jpg
http://www.jayadeff.com/GPF2003/GPF2003.htm
http://store3.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1782_207998040

Where's the flat there? It's not.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by icyboid
There's an excellent Brian pic right in the post above my earlier post.

Repeat: http://jayadeff.com/Bacharach/IMG_3233.jpg

sorry i missed it before. it's nice of you to post this for me here.
i remembered that he has a gread spreadeagle, but this picture is spectacular. thanx again.

[nyskatefan]

" I expect Mk to perform quality spins and elements like spread eagles, and triple triple combinations if she wants to win championships. "

WeBeEducated ... I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but she already has many, many championships. Guess the judges don't mind her spread eagle.

[dooobedooo]

To me, in Adrian's first picture, it looks as though Michelle meant to do an Ina Bauer rather than a spreadeagle, but has not stretched her left leg far enough back.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by nyskatefan

WeBeEducated ... I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but she already has many, many championships. Guess the judges don't mind her spread eagle.

The judges are forced to look at the sum total and not just individual elements. There's been many a time she's been beaten when the competition matches or outdoes her in jumps, but her jump consistency managing to eek out clean and nearly clean programs so many times is what keeps her winning.

You can take two cars as a simple example - a Ferrari and a Toyota - and take them on a 100,000 mile road trip. The Ferrari will have tons of problems and may never make it to the end, the Toyota will, but does that mean the Toyota is a better car? No - its just more reliable, consistent, but if anything, boring.

Does Kwan really have superior skating? In many areas with regards to technique and details, she falls far short, but she managed to be old reliable and has found a formula to winning medals - yet no medal count will mean her flawed elements like the spreadeagle is better than some other skaters. The only standout elements Kwan has is the spiral and split falling leaf - everything else she does in elements can be improved upon, though her footwork is pretty good but none of the ladies have worked on their footwork enough to match what the men can do.

A medal count is only useful if all you care about in skating as a fan is picking the winners.

[Emanfan]

Well, I think I'd rather watch Michelle's less than perfect spread eagle than Sasha sprawled on the ice after yet another missed jump. At least Michelle manages to stay on her feet.

I also think Sasha's SE would look a lot nicer if she kept her skates uncovered. The line of her SE, IMO, is not attractive - something about the line from knee to ankle just doesn't look right.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by dooobedooo
To me, in Adrian's first picture, it looks as though Michelle meant to do an Ina Bauer rather than a spreadeagle, but has not stretched her left leg far enough back.

i doubt it. here is her bauer. bauers start out with a forward lean and stay there. they are really difficult in that it takes great strenght to hold the direction on the ice. her back is arched but her back leg/hip aleighment is forward.

http://www.jayadeff.com/US2003Kwan4E.jpg

very different

http://www.jayadeff.com/US2004/IMG_1127.jpg

the outside edge spreadeagle starts out with a totally different orientation and is much more difficult. there is no way a skater can go from a starting bauer to an outside edge spread eagle attempt by "accident"

[nyskatefan]

"Does Kwan really have superior skating? In many areas with regards to technique and details, she falls far short."

Well, you certainly have a right to that opinion, but that is all that it is ... an opinion. Frankly, I have never seen so many people trying so hard to convince so many others that a decorated figure skating champion is just this flawed creature who has had a few timely successes in her career.

Michelle plays the game fair and square and gets the job done. I bet if you asked Sasha which she would like more ... a world title or a perfect spiral ... my guess is she would answer the question like a true competitive athlete.

[AxelAnnie22]

Michelle does not do a good spread eagle. And, that photo points it out perfectly. I read an article about the physiology of the spread eagle. It was really interesting. Has to do with how the femur is attached into the hip. (Our office is in the middle of moving, so I can't get my hands on it). I, personally, don't like the line at all. The break makes it look so ugly to me. The article goes on to say that some people just shouldn't do that move.

The physiology of it is similar in nature to the extension limitations Irina has in her spiral. Somethings just are the way they are.

[nyskatefan]

Well if the article says that, it must be true.

[MQSeries]

I love the spread-eagle move in general anyway, so I don't usually care if someone butt stick out or they aren't "straight as an arrow", as Dick Button would say. Katerina and Karyn Kadavy have the butt-sticking out thing on their spread-eagles, but I haven't heard anyone say that it ruined their performances.

Among the men, for speed, power, drama, extension, etc. no one can beat Paul's spreadeagle, but it's weird how Brian B is the one that most people identify with that move. I love Paul's split-eagle-split-eagle move in his "JFK" program.

[lilwish]

You know, I have always loved Michelle. She has always been my favorite skater, but now that this horrific, terrible spread eagle has been pointed out to me, I see the true error of my judgement and have suddenly decided I love Sasha more. These threads amuse me.

[nyskatefan]

LOL lilwish ... I guess we should be grateful to know the real truth now. How could we have been so misguided this whole time? :oops:

[hebequeen]

Originally posted by Dustin
With all due respect, I really need to ask you what you are looking at? All of the following pictures are on a deep secure edge:

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003skateamerica/exhibition/ac-scex02.jpg
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003skateamerica/exhibition/ac-scex03.jpg
http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003worlds/exhibition/fs-0301835A.jpg
http://www.jayadeff.com/GPF2003/GPF2003.htm
http://store3.yimg.com/I/prodigion_1782_207998040

Where's the flat there? It's not.
Sorry about that. I should have worded differently...edge is actually not the right term here.
I see a good spread-eagle as when the skaters has body line with absolutely no breaks anywhere from the blade up to the head, as well as acheiving a great lean of the entire body by doing it with great speed (in order to counter gravity; think circular motion), as demonstrated by Boitano, Wylie and Sandhu). Cohen dos have lean on the blades, but she obviously has to break quite a bit at the hip (with upper body (center of graivty) leaning forward) to maintain balance. Due to the lack of speed, her balance has to maintained that way. But any skater can achive that kind of lean with body leaning the opposite way.
Kwan on the other hand, has much slighter break at the hip, but it looks more like an anatomical issue than speed issue. Also, her enitre body falls backward, not just the blades and the legs. I don't find her spread-eagle that attractive either because of her imperfection of body line, but it is a much more difficult one with reasons mentioned above. And her speed going into the spread-eagle also allows her do the spread-eagle for a long time.
In simpler words, Kwan's spread-eagle is far from perfect (for aesthetic reasons), but Cohen's is worse.

[flippet]

Originally posted by lilwish
You know, I have always loved Michelle. She has always been my favorite skater, but now that this horrific, terrible spread eagle has been pointed out to me, I see the true error of my judgement and have suddenly decided I love Sasha more. These threads amuse me.

The object of a thread discussing a particular move and comparing it between skaters isn't always to determine which skater is loved more. Sometimes it's just about the details. Stick any head on those bodies, and the flaws in each will still be apparent. It really doesn't matter who is doing the move.

Anyway. Nice attempt at misdirection, but I've been enjoying the technical discussion. I hope it continues.

[Chico]

Well, on the car thing. If I had to had to pick between a RELIABLE car and a car that just MIGHT go the distance, I'd pick the reliable one. I don't care how good something MIGHT be, I want the one who IS. As for hip flexibility....I have it. I don't have to work for it either, it is just the way I was made. I'm willing to bet this is true for Sasha. It's obvious Michelle isn't. I agree that Sasha's spread eagle is cleaner looking. Michelle's is on a better edge I think. These are my opinions, just like the rest here. Opinion. Both are great skaters.

Chico

[Italiano]

How in the world could anyone look at Michelle and Sasha's spread eagle and think Michelle's is better? Please don't say it's in the eye of the beholder, just look at the 2 of them and get honest.

[Sing_Alto]

Originally posted by MQSeries
Among the men, for speed, power, drama, extension, etc. no one can beat Paul's spreadeagle, but it's weird how Brian B is the one that most people identify with that move.

Why is it weird that most people identify Brian Boitano with the spread eagle? Boitano's spread eagle is incredible and has just as much speed (if not more), power (if not more), drama and extension as Wylie's.

Oh, and at the risk of seeming nitpicky --so sue me ;)--, someone posted that Brian's "eagle" hasn't always been great. I beg to differ. I've got videos of Brian doing the "eagle" back in his early 20's, and it was just as impressive back then.

And for the record, I like both Michelle and Sasha, but Sasha's "eagle" is much better, imho.

[AshBugg44]

Of course it's not Michelle's fault that it is the way she is built and she can't help it. But if she can't do a nice spread eagle, then she shouldn't do one. Just my opinion. Sasha's is undoubtedly better. Spread eagles are not an easy thing - I lack turn out and cannot do one myself so of course major kudos to both girls for doing them. Michelle needs her knees straightened and that would make it look a lot better.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Sing_Alto
Why is it weird that most people identify Brian Boitano with the spread eagle? Boitano's spread eagle is incredible and has just as much speed (if not more), power (if not more), drama and extension as Wylie's.

Oh, and at the risk of seeming nitpicky --so sue me ;)--, someone posted that Brian's "eagle" hasn't always been great. I beg to differ. I've got videos of Brian doing the "eagle" back in his early 20's, and it was just as impressive back then.

And for the record, I like both Michelle and Sasha, but Sasha's "eagle" is much better, imho.

ya, but he's also gotten an enormous amount of skating exposure frop all the televised specials he's done.

if anyone could post a link, i'd like to see paul's spreadeagle.

[Samskate]

Sing Alto, I was the one who said Brian's earlier spread eagle wasn't so great and I was basing that statement on a picture in his book from when he was probably 12 years old or something! :) I didn't mean when he was older. If you have the book (and I'm sure you do!), check out the picture. It's a black and white photo and he's a skinny little kid compared to when he was in his 20's. ;)

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by Sing_Alto
Why is it weird that most people identify Brian Boitano with the spread eagle? Boitano's spread eagle is incredible and has just as much speed (if not more), power (if not more), drama and extension as Wylie's.


Boitano's spreadeagle only gives the illusion of grandeur. His height and large body mass and that he holds it for a relatively long time make people fawn over it, but there is nothing extraodinary in Brian's upper body position. His body is just sort of there, whereas Paul's looks like he's trying to touch the ceiling with his finger tips.

[Smiley0084]

I think the reality is that neither of them have great spread eagles. Sasha does not have good turn out, (I don't know where the myth came from that she has good turn out) and Michelle is bowlegged. I think Jeff Buttle and Yukina Ota have beautiful spread eagles.

[Samskate]

Several people have commented on that fact that Michelle is bowlegged. Sorry, but I must be missing something since I don't see much evidence if any of that. Now, Irina is bowlegged and so is Midori Ito, but I don't think Michelle is or if she is, not all that much.:o

[danibellerika]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
I think the reality is that neither of them have great spread eagles. Sasha does not have good turn out, (I don't know where the myth came from that she has good turn out) and Michelle is bowlegged. I think Jeff Buttle and Yukina Ota have beautiful spread eagles.

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2003skateamerica/exhibition/ac-scex02.jpg

http://www.toeloopy.com/images/events2002-2003/StarsStripesSkates/sc02sss1024.jpg

Hmm...I see good turnout there. Maybe I'm blind or something.:??

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Smiley0084

I think the reality is that neither of them have great spread eagles. Sasha does not have good turn out, (I don't know where the myth came from that she has good turn out) and Michelle is bowlegged. I think Jeff Buttle and Yukina Ota have beautiful spread eagles.

Note - when comparing spread eagles - you have to take into account whether they're inside or outside edge spread eagles and not compare an inside edge with outside edge SE as far as turn out goes. I know both Jeff and Yukina have inside edges in their SEs whereas both Sasha and Michelle don't normally do the inside edge eagle.

The turn out for an inside edge eagle is naturally much easier to achieve than for the outside edge eagle.

[danibellerika]

Buttle has nice IE and OE eagles I think. I also personally say IE spread eagles have turn IN and OEs have turn OUT, but of course the turn in thing isn't official or anything.

[AshBugg44]

Sasha has amazing turnout. I don't know what you've been looking at!

[DancinDiva]

Sasha's turnout really is not very good at all. Yes, her feet are turned out at 180 degrees, but her hips are not. One only has to look at her kneecaps in the pictures. They are not lined up with her toes as they would be if she were turning out properly, from the hip. Not only is this distracting, or at least for me it is, its dangerous. It places stress on the knees which can lead to injury. I point this out not to make Michelle's seem better, because I don't find hers to be particularly outstanding either, but because it is anatomically incorrect. I am rather new to skating, but I have been in ballet for nearly two decades and one of the first things we learn is the way to turn out properly so as to avoid injury. Now, I know (from personal experience) then skating is not merely ballet on ice, but I also know that if not turning out from the hip in that position is harmful in ballet, it is harmful while skating as well.

[Rebekke]

Sasha:D Sasha, Sasha, Sasha:P
MK is a great skater, to say the least, but I am not a fan of her spread eagle...I don't think she should include it in her program. Sasha's spread eagle is textbook perfection--gorgeous and beautiful! Just like the rest of her skating. ;)

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by DancinDiva
Sasha's turnout really is not very good at all. Yes, her feet are turned out at 180 degrees, but her hips are not. One only has to look at her kneecaps in the pictures. They are not lined up with her toes as they would be if she were turning out properly, from the hip. Not only is this distracting, or at least for me it is, its dangerous. It places stress on the knees which can lead to injury. I point this out not to make Michelle's seem better, because I don't find hers to be particularly outstanding either, but because it is anatomically incorrect. I am rather new to skating, but I have been in ballet for nearly two decades and one of the first things we learn is the way to turn out properly so as to avoid injury. Now, I know (from personal experience) then skating is not merely ballet on ice, but I also know that if not turning out from the hip in that position is harmful in ballet, it is harmful while skating as well.

Thankyou DancinDiva. As a ballet dancer ITA, with everything you've said. Sasha doesn't have good turn out, but it's not a huge deal it doesn't make her a bad skater just a simply flaw. Anyone who is saying Sasha has amazing turnout either doesn't know much about turn out (nothing wrong with that) or is simply deluded.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by adrianchew


The turn out for an inside edge eagle is naturally much easier to achieve than for the outside edge eagle.

:?: Have you ever even tried this? If this were true than we'd be seeing a lot more inside edge spread eagles. Because I find it to be the exact opposite, although everyone is different.

[peaches]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
:?: Have you ever even tried this? If this were true than we'd be seeing a lot more inside edge spread eagles. Because I find it to be the exact opposite, although everyone is different.

Actually it's true, for the inside eagle the feet do not have to be as turned out.

[Sing_Alto]

Originally posted by MQSeries
Boitano's spreadeagle only gives the illusion of grandeur. (Huh? That's strictly your opinion. I've heard plenty of people, fans & experts alike, go ga-ga over Brian's SE.) His height and large body mass and that he holds it for a relatively long time make people fawn over it (Which makes it all the more difficult), but there is nothing extraodinary in Brian's upper body position. (I repeat myself, HUH?) His body is just sort of there, whereas Paul's looks like he's trying to touch the ceiling with his finger tips.

I don't know why you feel the need to put down Brian's spread eagle in order to show your admiration for Paul's. They both have great spread eagles, and I've come up with some photographic evidence that proves my point about Brian's "eagle".

Exhibit A (http://bbimages3.homestead.com/9622517.html)

Exhibit B (http://bbimages3.homestead.com/9621832.html)

Exhibit C (http://bbimages.homestead.com/blushrtse.html)

I rest my case. ;)

[FSWer]

Rebeke COOL!!!!!! I'm a really big Sasha fan myself. I would love to chat with you, and welcome.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by peaches
Actually it's true, for the inside eagle the feet do not have to be as turned out.

It may be true for you, but not for me. It's way easier to go on the outside edge.

[peaches]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
It may be true for you, but not for me. It's way easier to go on the outside edge.

It may be eaisier, but we're not talking easy vs. hard, I thought the question was which required more turnout. Maybe I read it wrong. Anyway, that's what I was talking about. When you're on the inside edge going around the circle the feet do not have to be completely turned out. There are some pics of Josee Chouinard doing a great inside eagle and you can see her feet are not as turned out. http://www.scratchspin.com/2003/dreams03/fs-0303105.jpg If they were completely turned out you'd be on more of a flat or even on an outside edge. If you have good control you can ride the inside edge and go straight down the ice, with no curve, but most people can't do that, they end up on the flat. If you can do the outside, you should be able to do the inside with no problem since it's technically the easier one. They're both easy for me, I learned eagles before I learned to skate backwards, lol.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by peaches
It may be eaisier, but we're not talking easy vs. hard, I thought the question was which required more turnout. Maybe I read it wrong. Anyway, that's what I was talking about. When you're on the inside edge going around the circle the feet do not have to be completely turned out. There are some pics of Josee Chouinard doing a great inside eagle and you can see her feet are not as turned out. http://www.scratchspin.com/2003/dreams03/fs-0303105.jpg If they were completely turned out you'd be on more of a flat or even on an outside edge. If you have good control you can ride the inside edge and go straight down the ice, with no curve, but most people can't do that, they end up on the flat. If you can do the outside, you should be able to do the inside with no problem since it's technically the easier one. They're both easy for me, I learned eagles before I learned to skate backwards, lol.

For me the lean forward was so hard and because of that I had to "work" more for the turn out, even though I didn't need to be as turned out, if that makes sense. For me going on the outside edge just feels more natural. For some people, especailly me, it's hard to go on the inside edge, either because it's hard to sustain, or because of the "mental block" about leaning forward. For me I was always afraid of falling flat on my face :oops: :roll:

[peaches]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
For me the lean forward was so hard and because of that I had to "work" more for the turn out, even though I didn't need to be as turned out, if that makes sense. For me going on the outside edge just feels more natural. For some people, especailly me, it's hard to go on the inside edge, either because it's hard to sustain, or because of the "mental block" about leaning forward. For me I was always afraid of falling flat on my face :oops: :roll:

That makes sense. If it makes you feel better, I've yet to see anyone fall on their face on an inside eagle. I did fall on my head one time doing an illusion spin, but that's another issue entirely, lol.

[Little Bit]

Well, one thing this thread has done is made me look at everyone's spread eagles. I think that is a good thing too, because I am paying closer attention to the body line, speed and length of the move. I have looked at many pictures of both Michelle an Sasha. As someone said earlier, there is room for improvement with both of their spread eagles. But could I do one half as nice? No way, I would not attempt it, well maybe. But I am sure friends at the local rinks we go to would set me straight and fast. :D They are both nice, and I can't say anything bad against either really. But now I know what to look for and I thank you all for enlightening me on the facts of the proper way to do a spread eagle. Now I know a little bit more what to expect when I ask my child to do one.:lol:

[hebequeen]

OMG, this is still going on.
Good spread-eagle (http://dolshouse.com/queensmen/image/boitano1.jpg)
Bad Spread-eagle (http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/yagudin/images2/Cohen231102.jpg)
Geez, it's not that hard.

[Little Bit]

.....

[Samskate]

Great exhibits of Brian's spread eagle, Sing Alto!8-)

[apache88]

Look at those pics of Michelle's and Sasha's spreadeagles, both are bad and cheated. How anyone can say Sasha's so much better is beyond me. A good sp must have a straight line right from the blade to the head without any break. Of course one can do that by just standing straight up on the flat and that's where the edge comes in. The degree of lean is what differentiates 2 skaters who have a straight line from blade to head.

Now for both Michelle and Sasha, I'm sorry, both cheat in one way or another and both are bad. Michelle's lean extends from blade to knee and is interupted at the butt, that's cheating. Her knees also aren't totally straight. Sasha, while has a fantastic edge and a much straighter line, has an obvious flaw. Look at her ankles, a clueless observer can easily tell you she cheats by bending her ankles to achieve the deep edge, that's why she ends up looking like she's standing straight on the flat even though she has a deep edge. Bottomline, both are bad, it's whose you prefer. To say Michelle's very bad and Sasha's is good is just plain mind-boggling to me, at least technically speaking. As for whose is more aesthetic, it lies in the eye of the beholder.

Actually Michelle's position is harder than Sasha's. Try it yourself. Bend at the ankles and stand straight ala Sasha. Then tilt your body to achieve the same bend with straightness extended to the knees and stick your butt out ala Michelle. Tell me which is harder. You are more likely to fall doing Michelle's way. Think centre of gravity if you know Physics.;)

[JDC1]

As I've said before NO ONE besides Boitano should even bother doing a spread eagle, it's just pointless. Both Michelle and Sasha look like novices when you compare their spread eagles to Brians. Sasha's edge is barely there and Michelle does break at the waist. As for the poster who said Michelle hasn't "learned turn out" you don't LEARN turn out and you don't force it unless you want knee and hip problems. Michelle's Ina is much better than her spread eagle and Sasha's INa is beautiful.

[Kruss]

A butt-eagle is still a butt-eagle, no matter who does it.

...and I've seen both ladies do it.

[Kruss]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
ya, but he's also gotten an enormous amount of skating exposure frop all the televised specials he's done.

if anyone could post a link, i'd like to see paul's spreadeagle.


Here are some, although none from the side - but you get the picture...

http://www.dianesrink.com/paul/gallery/soipaul3.jpg

http://www.dianesrink.com/paul/gallery/soipaul6.jpg

http://www.amasci.com/~whtrose/pwylie/ap13bbm.jpg

http://www.amasci.com/~whtrose/pwylie/9622815.jpg

[icedancer2]

Boitano and Wylie both have great spread eagles -- but comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges:

Wylie -- tiny skater looks bigger

Boitano -- large skater takes complete command of the ice

I have to say that for me, when Brian Boitano won the '88 Olympics, that spread eagle stands out as a singular great moment in skating history.

I can't say the same for Wylie, although his spread eagles always sizzle as well.

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by JDC1
As I've said before NO ONE besides Boitano should even bother doing a spread eagle, it's just pointless.

There is nothing great about Boitano's body position, except that his butt isn't sticking out. His upper body is a lump of mass that is sort of just there .... no extension, no expression.

[Little Bit]

This really is educational, taking several looks at both Michelle and Sasha as what to "look" at really helps to understand the mechanics of a good spread eagle better. Thank you all for your posts, they are eye opening.:D

[Schmeck]

You know, how can we tell if Wylie's knees are straight, etc? He's wearing slightly loose pants, and you can't see his knees...

[Sing_Alto]

Originally posted by MQSeries
There is nothing great about Boitano's body position, except that his butt isn't sticking out. His upper body is a lump of mass that is sort of just there .... no extension, no expression.

Ah, but it's such a nice looking "lump of mass". ;)

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Kruss

A butt-eagle is still a butt-eagle, no matter who does it.

...and I've seen both ladies do it.

Oh I agree - but I do have to say not all skaters have the same butts and some butts are certainly quite aesthetically pleasing to look at. ;)

Not that butt-eagles are a good thing though. :P

[MQSeries]

Actually all skaters have great gluteus maximus. A skater can stick her butt out anytime she wants to.

[JDC1]

I really like Paul's inside spread eagle, I love his open chest, sigh..so hard to do that.

Brian's body is fine, it's expressive, his chest could be more open but it's not bad. What's impressive about Brian's is it's technically correct and it FLIES and he does a 3z out of it...ah.... There is nothing lumpish at all about his upper body.

[Debbie S]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Oh I agree - but I do have to say not all skaters have the same butts and some butts are certainly quite aesthetically pleasing to look at. ;)

Care to elaborate, Adrian?:lol:

[icenut84]

Just to make a point - I don't understand those people who say Michelle and Sasha don't have good turnout. :?? If you can do an outside spread eagle, you DO have good turnout - it's impossible to do otherwise! Whether their eagles are technically perfect or not, they can both still do respectable ones.

I also don't understand those that say nobody except Boitano or Wylie should even bother doing one. What?? Since when do you single out those one or two skaters who can do a move the best and say that because they're the best, and others aren't as good, nobody else should do the move at all?? I think that's totally barmy. IMO, Oksana Baiul has one of the best flying camels and donut spins I've seen, but that doesn't mean nobody else should do it, even if theirs isn't as good. Same for Irina Slutskaya and the 3loop, Midori Ito and the 3axel, Alexei Yagudin and the top-stomping footwork, Michelle Kwan and the change-edge spiral, Sasha Cohen and the I spin, Brian Boitano and the spread eagle, etc etc etc. Spread eagles, like most of the other moves in skating, are ones that are used by a great number of skaters - they are *skating moves*, not *Skater X's own personal move*. Who does it best is what competition is about.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by icenut84
Just to make a point - I don't understand those people who say Michelle and Sasha don't have good turnout. :?? If you can do an outside spread eagle, you DO have good turnout - it's impossible to do otherwise! Whether their eagles are technically perfect or not, they can both still do respectable ones.
I also don't understand those that say nobody except Boitano or Wylie should even bother doing one.

I think that if you read the entire thread the "turnout" issue makes more sense.There are lots of ways to turn parts of your body out, but "turnout" is a comes from the hip. A rotation of the femur from the hip socket. Pretty much you are born with it, or you aren't. I have perfect turnout (kind of like perfect pitch) doesn't buy me much at the grocery store, but it makes ballet moves safer and (some) easier to execute...and it does nothing for my horseback riding! Michelle does not have great turnout. It has nothing to do with her being a good person, or a great skater. Just how G-d put her body together.

I have an article from a skating publication that talks about spread eagles, and beagles (what Michelle does) with the break in the hip and the butte out.) A spread eagle is gorgeous - the line, the lean, the speed the edge. A beagle does not a thing of beauty make. That is why some say that skaters who can eagle should, and those who beagle should execute a move that shows them to better advantage. It is a fine point (although not that fine) but then, so is Michael Weiss mythical quad - with that foot down.

I will, btw, retype the article and post it over the weekend. It is interesting reading, and sheds light onto how the body build affects jumping.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
...I will, btw, retype the article and post it over the weekend. It is interesting reading, and sheds light onto how the body build affects jumping.

save yourself some time. take it to a kinkos or your local equivalent and have them scan it.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
save yourself some time. take it to a kinkos or your local equivalent and have them scan it. Hi Why Worry. I scan legal documents for a living. So, that part's easy. But how do I get it into the little dialogue box from a pdf? I didn't want to ocr it.

[Italiano]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Yes, in fact I do watch skating element by element. I always marvel at the poor quality of Mk's spins and spread eagles, the lack of height in her jumps, and I always wonder how she racks up high points with that kind of skating.
I expect Sasha to start landing her jumps more consistently if she wants to win championships, (she has everything else first rate)and I expect Mk to perform quality spins and elements like spread eagles, and triple triple combinations if she wants to win championships.(she has reliable jumps under pressure)
I wouldnt give it away to anyone who failed to do so.
A champion who is given 6.0 marks should not have such obvious flaws in her basic skating elements. .................................................. .................................................. ......................................I agree with the idea of Michelle's getting all these high marks for not so high technical qualities. I hope the CoP will fix this problem. No skater should ever be given high marks for name value alone. Michelle has a large following and her name sells tickets. Is that any reason to keep letting her on the podium? What's wrong with this picture?

[nyskatefan]

Well now ... a new reason Michelle has so many championships. They "let" her on the podium because she sells tickets. :lol:

Keep telling yourself that, if it makes you feel better.

[fadedstardust]

Ok, lots of opinions from me on this one...

You are not born with remarkable turnout. You might be born with above average turn out, but the kind of turn out needed for perfect spread eagles, spirals, and stuff like that, it's WORKED on, just like stretches. Sasha was probably born with good extensions, but she wasn't made to kick her leg up at 180 degrees overnight. And if you are a skater, you figure these things out young, what you'll need. As a long term ballet dancer, I can say for sure that Sasha does NOT have good turn out. It's blatantly obvious if you know how good turn out is characterized...anyone (or many people, but not anyone truthfully...) can yank their leg sideways...it's how the body adapts to it that tells you if it's second nature to the person. Tatiana said so herself...she said "people think Sasha is a ballet dancer until they see her at the ballet barre and realize she doesn't have the turn out a dancer would have." Her turn out's fine...but it's not GREAT. And it doesn't have to be. It's good enough to do the move, although the knees don't line up properly which doesn't look good AND as has been said, is bad for the knees and hip joints. But the problem of Michelle's waist break and mostly one blade on the ice is a turn out one (which her turn out is worse than Sasha's...that's not a shame), she needs to position herself that way to make up for the lack of turnout, something you'd think she would have worked on. But extension and turnout don't seem like they were ever a huge part of her training, or of many of Caroll's kids for that matter. It's too late to change it now, for either skater...they have to deal with what they've got, but I think it's a bit too generous to say they were born with that turn out. They weren't, they just chose not to improve on it and now they have to deal with the fact that there's some great skating moves that they just can't pull off that well. Period. It doesn't make them mediocre...VERY FEW people can do spread eagles, let alone good ones. Michelle just shouldn't. She has a great Ina Bauer, she should stick to it. Sasha's spread eagle looks better in comparison, but it's not her best move.

Meanwhile, I've seen The Great Sasha/Michelle debate on every single board and I hope my comments don't fuel it, but I feel the need to voice these thoughts I've had in my head about the whole thing:

I don't take anything away from Michelle's skating...and I certainly am not sitting here saying *I* could beat her, but...I think the reason she's won so many times isn't necessarily because she's got such amazing technique, or artistry, or anything. I think she's won because she's the best, which yes...is a sublime feat to achieve. But...I don't find her technique GREAT. Her jumps are low and they don't rotate fast, she doesn't do triple/triple, the one she used to do was the easiest combo there was, her speed isn't incredible, her spins aren't inventive (or all that fast) except for that AWESOME reverse camel which I loved, and as many have said...the past 5 years- same program, new (yet similar) music. It's either middle-east inspired or piano-ish lyrical style. Doesn't change. And she has exactly one facial expression. But she's the best. Sasha (and assorted others) have better single elements...but not ALL of them at once. Sasha has 3 or 4 AMAZING elements, her jumps rotate faster, her spins are prettier...but she falls on landings, drops edges in spins...and overall she can't pull it all together. Michelle has less spectacular and less amplified elements, but maybe by minimizing effort on each little thing, she manages to bring everything together when it counts, and the consistency is definitely what puts her time after time over the top...which is great, consistency is hard to achieve, and it's a key factor. But it doesn't make her triple flip the best, or her flying camel the best. It makes the performance the best out of everyone currently in the event, which is usually a big splatfest cause a) they haven't been at it as long or b) they are doing more difficult things or c) they just aren't good, haha.

I personally would rather watch a program with failed jumps but amazing artistry, or blurred fast and centered, interesting spins but bad footwork, I'd rather just see one amazing move done that sets the skater apart, that takes my breath away...than a bunch of run of the mill cautious programs done one after the other in the same old repetition. That, however, is PURELY a matter of what you think a good performance consists of, and I can understand why people would prefer to watch Michelle. I personally admire her for staying at the top so long, and I think she's earned it not by her name but by her consistency and hard work. I don't, however, enjoy her skating or her programs very much, and if she is the best in the entire world (which she is) it just makes me think that we really need a lot more talent in the top ladies than we currently have. Seriously, I wish the judges had more QUALITY skating to pick from in the Senior Ladies scene. Maybe someday.

-FadedStardust

[danibellerika]

Wow! What an excellent post. When I practice spread eagle(off ice), my knees line up with my toes(and all the work is coming from the hip). Would that be a different story if I tried one ON ice?

[WeBeEducated]

I agree with every single word of the post by fadedstardust!

great post

[nyskatefan]

FadedStardust ... bravo to you! I appreciate that you can see that Michelle winning so many times isn't the result of cheating judges, pure luck or ticket-selling ability.

I do agree with you on some other points. I feel that Michelle does many things very well ... just not necessarily best of the best. Her spins are her weakest area, but they are not by any means bad. They have great centering and back position ... but need additional speed and variation. I have always acknowledged that Sasha's spins IMO are THE best!
I do feel MK's split falling leaf is as good as they come, and I would put her spiral right up there also. I understand that many prefer Sasha's because of her incredible extension ... but I like Michelle's COE, together with wonderful extension. Just my personal preference ... both are excellent.
I disagree with you on Michelle's jumps. Minus the loop (which is just average for her) I believe her jumps are secure and beautiful. I hear so many complaints about the 3/3 issue with her ... but how many 3/3's has Sasha landed? One, I think?

What this all comes down to is that figure skating is about putting all these elements together successfully at the right time. God knows MK has had a few big disappointments of her own ... when she wasn't the best she could be. However, the major part of the time ... she is right on target ... she answers the call for what is needed on THAT day. Noone would complain if Bobby Bonds won Game 7 of the World Series with a single ... instead of a homerun. The only part that would be important is that he got the job done. It's really no different in skating. Each skater needs to do their best on a given night, and hope it's enough. If the competition outskates you, then you'll lose. If not ... you win. Simple as ABC.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by fadedstardust
Ok, lots of opinions from me on this one...
-FadedStardust

Two comments, FadedStardust...
1) that was a wonderful post
2) I absolutely LOVE your name!

Tapper

[Italiano]

I love your name too FS. Your post is terrific but I disagree about Michelle's greatness. I think Mchelle is the queen of consistancy. Being consistant is great but they should give a whole other medal for that. You are right in that her jumps are small. I also would much rather see a skater fail at attempt than never attempt.

[fadedstardust]

Thank you everyone for reading the LONGGG post and being so receptive and open to the ideas I voiced. I really appreciate it. :D Thanks also on the compliments for my username...it came about totally out of the blue. I use it for a lot of different things, I figured I'd just smoosh my two favorite words together. I should make up a more interesting story for it...haha. Anyway, Thanks again for all the feedback, this is a great forum.

-FadedStardust

[apache88]

Fadedstardust, excellent excellent post. I appreciate your tell-it-like-you-think-it-is in an objective way although I don't necessarily agree with your assessment totally specifically about Michelle's jumps.

Italiano, you may want to ponder over just what it is that all great athletes in other sports have in common that ordinary or very good athletes don't have - yes consistency. I don't know, I just cant help but infer from your posts that consistency is a crime. It's boring alright but it's a darn difficult quality to achieve for any athlete. You don't see many great athletes with longevity in any sports every decade. And there is a a darn good reason why there aren't. :)

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by fadedstardust


I personally would rather watch a program with failed jumps but amazing artistry, or blurred fast and centered, interesting spins but bad footwork, I'd rather just see one amazing move done that sets the skater apart, that takes my breath away...than a bunch of run of the mill cautious programs done one after the other in the same old repetition. That, however, is PURELY a matter of what you think a good performance consists of, and I can understand why people would prefer to watch Michelle. I personally admire her for staying at the top so long, and I think she's earned it not by her name but by her consistency and hard work. I don't, however, enjoy her skating or her programs very much, and if she is the best in the entire world (which she is) it just makes me think that we really need a lot more talent in the top ladies than we currently have. Seriously, I wish the judges had more QUALITY skating to pick from in the Senior Ladies scene. Maybe someday.

-FadedStardust Great post. I appreciate not only the opinions you express but the time you took to put a complete series of thoughts together. And, I couldn't agree more!

[peaches]

Originally posted by fadedstardust
Ok, lots of opinions from me on this one...

You are not born with remarkable turnout. You might be born with above average turn out, but the kind of turn out needed for perfect spread eagles, spirals, and stuff like that, it's WORKED on, just like stretches.

I dunno. I was told by a ballet dancer very early in my skating career that I should have been a dancer instead of a skater because of my turnout and such. It's not anything I ever worked on before that, and didn't work on it afterwards either, so I think that some people are just born with incredible turnout. My mom is the same way and she never danced, skated, or did anything to work on it.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by fadedstardust
Thanks also on the compliments for my username... I should make up a more interesting story for it....
-FadedStardust

I don't think you have to come up with a story about it... the name inspires stories all on its own! :D

[Italiano]

Apache, we just have differant opinions on this. Yes consistancy is great but not in and of itself. To be better is always the goal for most skaters. It's in doing something beyond expectations that greatness comes in my book. I believe Miki Anda is on the right track. I think Sasha is too.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by apache88
Fadedstardust, excellent excellent post. I appreciate your tell-it-like-you-think-it-is in an objective way although I don't necessarily agree with your assessment totally specifically about Michelle's jumps.

Italiano, you may want to ponder over just what it is that all great athletes in other sports have in common that ordinary or very good athletes don't have - yes consistency. I don't know, I just cant help but infer from your posts that consistency is a crime. It's boring alright but it's a darn difficult quality to achieve for any athlete. You don't see many great athletes with longevity in any sports every decade. And there is a a darn good reason why there aren't. :)

I disagree that its consistency that characterizes greatness in sport, and certainly not in skating...not Paul Wylie, not Ilia Kulik, not even Boitano or Kristi as amateurs (and its one heck of a lot easier to be consistent with only 4 jumps as a pro); not to mention Janet Lynn.

Its not that "consistency" is a crime...its more that being consistent does not necesssarily mean that one has great elements of ANY kind at all!

As for Kwan, she does have a truly great split falling leaf and spirals.

[AxelAnnie22]

Here is the article I have referred to. Enjoy!


From 6.0 Skate – Winter 2002
Written by Christie Allan Piper

Spread Eagles

Everyone brings gifts to skating. If you’re tall, that’s good (extra lean on edges). If small, that’s good (extra quickness). If in between, that’s good (a little extra of everything). Long legs allow extra extension. Low waists allow extra swivel. High waists allow extra backbend, high where the vertebrae are smaller, more easily compressed. Closed hips give extra control to jumps and spins. Open hips give extra spread to the eagle.

“Everybody should do spread eagles” Maribel Vinson Owen insisted. While
treasuring her lessons, on Eagles I have come to believe that not everyone should do them. Her own family demonstrated that eagles come more easily to some than others. Maribel could sweep across the ice dropping eagles on great arcs, with deep lean, while carrying a cup of coffee. One daughter, most memorable to “Whatever Lola Wants”, leaned back on an eagle, arms overhead and pulled on a long, imaginary glove, dropping her hand from the wrist in the final flourish. Her other daughter, also a beautiful skater, gamely did eagles, but with a rueful grin, bending forward, skate blade chattering.

Some of the world’s great skaters have eagles. Some of the world’s great skaters do not. Closed hips thwart eagles, but help spins and jumps. Open, flexible hips, if not consciously checked, thwart spins and jumps, and allow easy eagles. Open hip disadvantages can be overcome. Closed hips cannot become fully open.

Spread eagles are a glory when good, needless when not. “Beagles” (short for bad eagles) with crooked knees or jackknifed hips are not worth doing. To determine if you have the makings of an eagle, lie face down on the floor. If your feet turn in, shed no tears. You have easier access to centered spins and secure landings. Enjoy! Skip the beagle. If you have open hips, hurray! Control slippery hips in jumps and spins. Enjoy the eagle.

Here there are several paragraphs explaining how to learn an eagle.


The spread eagle is spectacular, perfect for musical highlights. It covers the ice while allowing moments to breathe in a program. The eagle is a gift. If it is yours, use it. If not, celebrate the gifts you have instead that will distinguish you in other memorable ways.

[apache88]

Italiano:
Apache, we just have differant opinions on this. Yes consistancy is great but not in and of itself. To be better is always the goal for most skaters. It's in doing something beyond expectations that greatness comes in my book. I believe Miki Anda is on the right track. I think Sasha is too.


Yeah we certainly have different opinions. Again I dsagree that to do better is always the goal of most skaters if I infer from your post correctly. It's not just to do better but also to be consistently good or rather very good. Sarah would be lying if she said she wasn't terribly disappointed with her performances post-Olympics. I'm glad she has found her strength to move on. She had had the best skate of her life at SLC, her goal achieved, but another goal of hers which was to be consistently very good was brutally destroyed thereafter. Back to your post, if Sasha cannot perform consistently, she won't be mentioned in the same breath with other greats, no matter how incredibly talented as she is. This is a sport, it's cruel. If she wants to join this sport, that's how things are. Otherwise, shows and exhibitions are excellent options for her to showcase her talents.

Loveskating, again I disagree with you. Maybe I didn't make it clear it my previous post. "consistently very good" or "ability to consistently perform at high level" is what separates great champions from the rest. So when I mentioned consistency, I certainly didn't mean consistently ok or mediocre, but consistently very good. Look at Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Steffi Graf, Pete Sampras, Bjorn Borg, McEnroe and the likes, they weren't the greatest at many of the elements in tennis, they all had strengths and weaknesses. They were great because they were able to capitalize on their strengths and most importantly perform at high level when it counted for many many years, consistently. There were however some players who were more talented than them in one way or another and even managed to steal some of their crowns but due to lack of consistency to perform at high level, they were never considered as great players despite their talents. This is what sports are. If you choose to see amateur skating differently other than a sport, that's perfectly fine, you are entitled to it, but it won't change the fact that it is a sport. Otherwise why even bother to have competitions, medals, talk about the history of Worlds, Olys, Nationals...etc, why not just talk about the performances per se?

[peaches]

Originally posted by apache88
if Sasha cannot perform consistently, she won't be mentioned in the same breath with other greats, no matter how incredibly talented as she is. This is a sport, it's cruel. If she wants to join this sport, that's how things are. Otherwise, shows and exhibitions are excellent options for her to showcase her talents.



So a skater is not great unless they've achieved the highest of consistency? Well there goes Wylie, Todd E., Janet Lynn, Harding, Bobek....guess they're banished from the list of great skaters.

:roll:

As for Sasha, I think she "joined this sport" when she came in 2nd at the US nationals in 2000. Rejoined when she rebounded from a really bad injury to make the Olympic team in 2002 and placed 4th. Twice 4th at Worlds, not too shabby. Yeah, she's been in it for a few years and already has had a better career than most skaters, I'd say she "joined" a while ago. ;)

[Italiano]

Since Sarah stated from the beginning that since she was a little girl her goal was to win Olympic Gold, she acheived that goal, something MK has yet to do. Yes, MK wants that Olympic gold, don't kid yourself. She will have to do more than be consistant for that. The Japanese are in town or haven't you heard? They'll be in town in '06 as well. I think Kimmie already heard about it. LOL

[apache88]

Peaches, Janet Lynn and the likes were some of the few who became great not due to consistency. But a majority of the great skaters mentioned in the history book were multiple champions of major competitions, and they were because of their ability to skate consistently at high level. Whenever Sonia Henie, Maribel Vinson, Carol Heiss...etc are mentioned,people would very likely first talk about their multiple golds, then their skating. A conspicuous exception is of course Janet Lynn. The bottom line is, yes we do have great skaters who have become great not because of their medals but in the history book, most of the all-time greats are considered so because of their multiple wins. The reason I started the post earlier regarding consistency is because I disagreed strongly with some of the posters who implied (sorry if I had inferred wrongly) that consistency was as easy as A,B,C and that it had little correlation to greatness. Every sport has already proven otherwise.

Italiano, please don't assume all Michelle fans are stuck with the thought that she doesn't covet the Olympic gold. I say you assume because I never said she didn't in any of my posts yet you told me not to kid myself into thinking she doesn't. Another popular assumption is most Michelle fans are deluded and unreasonable. ;)

I've always thought she covets the Oly gold. Really nothing wrong with that and I actually am delighted that she still has the fire to go for it. And yes, I think her spins are boring whereas Sasha's are superior and exciting. :lol:

[nyskatefan]

Apache ... don't waste your breath trying to explain. For some people, making assumptions about Michelle and her fans is what they most love to do.

[Italiano]

I'm glad to hear that some MK fans understand that she does want the gold. Maybe she can change her program to compete with the Japanese. As for Sonja and Carol H- what exactly did these women do besides skate around looking pretty? Yes they won Oly medals but doing what exactly? Sonja didn't really have much competion in those days, that's why she lasted so long. Even the men weren't jumping very much until Dick Button did his triple in the early 50's. I'm so old I remember Tenley and Carol, Peggy- ect. I remember saying to my mother, why can't the ladies jump? I would have to wait literal decades before that happened with Midori and Harding in the 90's. Then it all went away again until the Japanese got started. Hopefully this will increase degree of difficulty in all aspects of ladies FS and there will never again be a 40 year drought. Jumps are not everything but the Japanese have artistry as well. You can have both, it's not impossible.

[AxelAnnie22]

So, about that spread eagle.......that was the topic.

I would love your collective thoughts about the information in the article I retyped with my very own (tired) fingers.

From 6.0 Skate – Winter 2002
Written by Christie Allan Piper

Spread Eagles

Everyone brings gifts to skating. If you’re tall, that’s good (extra lean on edges). If small, that’s good (extra quickness). If in between, that’s good (a little extra of everything). Long legs allow extra extension. Low waists allow extra swivel. High waists allow extra backbend, high where the vertebrae are smaller, more easily compressed. Closed hips give extra control to jumps and spins. Open hips give extra spread to the eagle.

“Everybody should do spread eagles” Maribel Vinson Owen insisted. While treasuring her lessons, on Eagles I have come to believe that not everyone should do them. Her own family demonstrated that eagles come more easily to some than others. Maribel could sweep across the ice dropping eagles on great arcs, with deep lean, while carrying a cup of coffee. One daughter, most memorable to “Whatever Lola Wants”, leaned back on an eagle, arms overhead and pulled on a long, imaginary glove, dropping her hand from the wrist in the final flourish. Her other daughter, also a beautiful skater, gamely did eagles, but with a rueful grin, bending forward, skate blade chattering.

Some of the world’s great skaters have eagles. Some of the world’s great skaters do not. Closed hips thwart eagles, but help spins and jumps. Open, flexible hips, if not consciously checked, thwart spins and jumps, and allow easy eagles. Open hip disadvantages can be overcome. Closed hips cannot become fully open.

Spread eagles are a glory when good, needless when not. “Beagles” (short for bad eagles) with crooked knees or jackknifed hips are not worth doing. To determine if you have the makings of an eagle, lie face down on the floor. If your feet turn in, shed no tears. You have easier access to centered spins and secure landings. Enjoy! Skip the beagle. If you have open hips, hurray! Control slippery hips in jumps and spins. Enjoy the eagle.

Here there are several paragraphs explaining how to learn an eagle.

The spread eagle is spectacular, perfect for musical highlights. It covers the ice while allowing moments to breathe in a program. The eagle is a gift. If it is yours, use it. If not, celebrate the gifts you have instead that will distinguish you in other memorable ways.

[bunghodog]

I think the average viewer does not notice all these things that are pointed out, whether or not you like Michelle's spreadeagle? quality? who cares she does a great job using it in her program, and Sasha does too, I hate to see Michelle's quality put down, along with Sasha too.
I can say I am not a professional skater, I just love to watch figure skating, and I think Michelle has great quality in all her moves.

[fadedstardust]

I think it's awesome that you can watch skating and enjoy all of it, but inevitably, as some of us study figure skating technique for years and work on successfully achieving moves, it's easy to become very critical. It's not a good thing because I know I will sit and watch a comp and say " that move's wrong, that's a flutz, she cheated that..." instead of just enjoying the whole thing, but it really is impossible to switch that off when you're involved in the sport, you know? It's a bad thing but hey, it makes for conversations. :) I think in the end, we all appreciate all the skaters out there for doing what they do, it's a very difficult job and there will never be any such thing as perfect.

-FadedStardust

[HSF]

AA2, I thought Christie Allan Piper shot herself in the foot by starting her argument with the quote from Maribel Vinson Owen. I have such respect and admiration for Maribel that her simple statement, “everybody should do spread eagles,” carried more weight than all the words Piper came up with to defend her side of the argument.

I would much rather see a skater do an adequate, if less than perfect, spread eagle for a moment of “rest” than see a skater wiggling his/her hips and flirting with the judges at center ice.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by HSF


I would much rather see a skater do an adequate, if less than perfect, spread eagle for a moment of “rest” than see a skater wiggling his/her hips and flirting with the judges at center ice. I am with you on that! I really hate all that. I thought skating took a nose dive each time Phillipe C. undressed!

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by HSF
I would much rather see a skater do an adequate, if less than perfect, spread eagle for a moment of “rest” than see a skater wiggling his/her hips and flirting with the judges at center ice.

But those aren't the only two choices. If working on spread eagles is going to cause a skater pain and perhaps actual injury because their hips are not built to achieve that position without excessive forcing, wouldn't they be better off doing Ina Bauers (if they can do that well) or various spirals, or other types of edgework in the part of the program where a spread eagle would be appropriate for those who can do them?

Do you think all female skaters should do Biellmann spins? That all male skaters should be required to do laybacks?

[icyboid]

Originally posted by bunghodog
I think the average viewer does not notice all these things that are pointed out, whether or not you like Michelle's spreadeagle? quality? who cares she does a great job using it in her program, and Sasha does too, I hate to see Michelle's quality put down, along with Sasha too.

ITA. I rewatched clips of both of them doing spreadeagles, and all this nitpicking seems irrelevant when you see their spreadeagles in action and in the context of a program.

[HSF]

LOL, Ellyn, I did not mean to imply that all skaters must do a spread eagle but I can see why you made that assumption since I quoted Maribel's "everybody should do spread eagles" statement. Just goes to show you how different people interpret the written words in different ways. I did not interpret Maribel's words to mean everybody MUST do spread eagles but that they should have the option of using a spread eagle if they felt it fit the mood of the music and they could perform an "adequate" one.

I don't think many skaters that have an above average spiral would consider that move as a moment of "rest." A good spiral requires a lot of muscle strength and body tension.

Yes, there are other options but this thread is about spread eagles. I'm not a particular fan of Ina Bauers but that is a whole 'nother topic. LOL

I plead guilty to using the most rediculous example I could think of when comparing an "adequate" spread eagle to standing and vamping in front to the judges at center ice. Life's too short not to have a little fun.

[ARTIQUE]

Originally posted by icyboid
ITA. I rewatched clips of both of them doing spreadeagles, and all this nitpicking seems irrelevant when you see their spreadeagles in action and in the context of a program.

ITA. Just look at Michelle's series of gorgeous inside/outside edge spreadeagles in her East of Eden program at the 1998 World pro-am competition, which were so beautifully placed after her falling leaf as the music reaches a crescendo. :bow:

[Ellyn]

So you're just saying that any skater should be allowed to include spread eagles, even poorly done ones, if they want? I wouldn't argue with that, and I don't think Piper would either. I just read her comments about the "beagles" as warning skaters with closed hips that their efforts would be better spent elsewhere.

[skatepixie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Italiano
As for Sonja and Carol H- what exactly did these women do besides skate around looking pretty? Yes they won Oly medals but doing what exactly? Sonja didn't really have much competion in those days, that's why she lasted so long.

Ok...Im going to go off topic here...so deal with it, people...

Carol Heiss was the 1st woman to land a double axel...not so shabby...

As for Sonia having no competition...she did. In fact, Cecilia (i forget her last name...she was the 1st woman to do a double of any kind...so her last name should be easy to find...or someone who, unlike me, is running on a full nights sleep can tell you) of CAN, nearly beat her at the '36 Olympics. The layback was invented as part of Cecilia's attempt.

Ok....back on topic...

I talked to my mom about this...she did ballet for quite some time. She says, and I agree with her, that it is virtually impossible for a skate to fully turn out from the hips. This is beacuse a) it isnt done statically and must be done on an edge, b)the blade grips the ice, which resists turn out, and c)skaters dont spend nearly the ammount of time turned out that dancers do. I think the 3rd reason is really the most telling. In dance...turn out is needed...in skating its just a plus.

Also...if you force it in skating you arent forcing it for a long period of time...its not like dace where they spend all their time turned out. Sasha is unlikely to be dammaged long term from doing a few eagles.

Re: MK's eagle...an eagle is classed as a "grace element". That position isnt graceful, and isnt even and eagle because it traces two seperate circles...

So...Sasha's is about as close to perfect turn out as Ive seen (Brian and Paul are good...but theres something more "balletic" about Sasha's). Plus, we cant judge the guys' turnout cause of their pants...

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by skatepixie
As for Sonia having no competition...she did. In fact, Cecilia (i forget her last name...she was the 1st woman to do a double of any kind...so her last name should be easy to find...or someone who, unlike me, is running on a full nights sleep can tell you) of CAN, nearly beat her at the '36 Olympics. The layback was invented as part of Cecilia's attempt.

Colledge. She also invented the camel spin.

[skatepixie]

Thank you! It was on the tip of my tounge (or fingers, as the case may be)!

[hiliairyh]

Neither Michelle or Sasha's SP are perfect, there are strengths and flaws in both. I can tell who are the posters who love Sasha's and who love Michelle's and who are saying negative things about one and positive things about the other just by their usernames without even reading their posts.

For good SP in a lady skater one word Josee, with honor mention yukina Ota. :)

[Italiano]

My question is why does it seem so hard for most women skaters to do a proper and well executed spread eagle? It should not be that hard. Throughout the years there have been many things that were said to be only the domain of men skaters and yet now, the Asain woman are making tremendous strides. I just cannnot and will not believe that womaen can't execute this move properly and well.

[hiliairyh]

I disagree about Michelle's greatness. I think Mchelle is the queen of consistancy

I don't think anyone has claimed Michelle to be the greatest, just the best and she deserved all her wins.

[Clarice]

Originally posted by Italiano
My question is why does it seem so hard for most women skaters to do a proper and well executed spread eagle? It should not be that hard. Throughout the years there have been many things that were said to be only the domain of men skaters and yet now, the Asain woman are making tremendous strides. I just cannnot and will not believe that womaen can't execute this move properly and well.

This has been addressed earlier in this thread. The ability to do a good spread eagle has to do with how your body is put together. Some people simply do not have the degree of turnout required. In some cases, working on flexibility will improve the situation, but for others, nothing much can be done. Their hips simply don't open enough. It's a matter of physical makeup, not lack of ability. And it's not that big a deal. Those with closed hips may never be able to do a great spread eagle, but they'll have an easier time controlling their jump landings.

[Samskate]

Are you a skater, Italiano?:)

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by Italiano
My question is why does it seem so hard for most women skaters to do a proper and well executed spread eagle? It should not be that hard. Throughout the years there have been many things that were said to be only the domain of men skaters and yet now, the Asain woman are making tremendous strides. I just cannnot and will not believe that womaen can't execute this move properly and well.

What is it about a woman's physical makeup that you think should allow them to do a good spread-eagle with ease? Is it because a woman hip bone is designed for child-bearing (well, they're not really efficiently designed for that)?

The one skating position that does irritate me is someone who started skating as a kid and yet still cannot achieve a decent position in his camel spin, ie Joubert, Van De Perren. Daily stretching would have fix that problem.

[Italiano]

All I'm saying is years ago they always said women couldn't do quads and triple axels either, I remember. Then Midori and Tonya came along and proved them wrong. Now Ando is landing quads, another jump deemed impossible for women. I find it interesting. I'm sure there is a women out there who can land a perfect spread eagle. Whether we ever get to see her is a whole other question for a whole other thread.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by hiliairyh
I don't think anyone has claimed Michelle to be the greatest, just the best and she deserved all her wins.

Er, ah, there was a thread having to do with the use of Sasha's sillouette graphically on this board (a spreadeagle) in the last six months in which the majority bashed Sasha's spreadeagle and claimed that MK's was so much superior.

Frankly, I thought they were much the same -- any idiot like me can see the difference between a Boitano spread eagle (or a Wylie one) and Sasha's or Michelle's...but what I didn't know was that the tracings were supposed to show one line. On that basis, Sasha's is clearly superior to Michelle's seems to me, while both are not nearly up to Boitano's standard!

I think the standards set are important...and while I don't mind anyone doing a spreadeagle not up to the standard, its the outlandish refusal by superfans to allow ANY discussion of what the standards are that keeps ALL of us from learning anything about skating.

I think this is a great discussion...

[hiliairyh]

Originally posted by loveskating
[B]Er, ah, there was a thread having to do with the use of Sasha's sillouette graphically on this board (a spreadeagle) in the last six months in which the majority bashed Sasha's spreadeagle and claimed that MK's was so much superior.

ER, I do not post on this forum everyday, maybe once a month, I know nothing about the Sasha sillouette thread.

Frankly, I thought they were much the same -- any idiot like me can see the difference between a Boitano spread eagle (or a Wylie one) and Sasha's or Michelle's...but what I didn't know was that the tracings were supposed to show one line. On that basis, Sasha's is clearly superior to Michelle's seems to me, while both are not nearly up to Boitano's standard!

I think they both have strengths and weakness, neither are perfect, to me they are about the same overall.

I think the standards set are important...and while I don't mind anyone doing a spreadeagle not up to the standard, its the outlandish refusal by superfans to allow ANY discussion of what the standards are that keeps ALL of us from learning anything about skating.

Show me the standards, i.e. from the ISU rule book then. Sorry, to me both Sasha and Michelle's SP are overall about the same.

I don't have a rule book, I can clearly see Josee is the best among ladies, and Ota has an excellent one too.

Since Ellyn is here, maybe she can shed some light.

BTW, I did not say Michelle is the best skater or the greatest skater. I think she deserves all her elligible competition wins.

[icyboid]

Skating would be extremely boring if people only practiced and performed elements that they did perfectly or better than everyone else in the world.

Originally posted by Italiano
My question is why does it seem so hard for most women skaters to do a proper and well executed spread eagle? It should not be that hard.

Probably the same reason why most women skaters (Plushenko too) can't do Bielmanns like the Swiss.

I still find it hilarious that just having two tracings would make Michelle's spreadeagle less "graceful"/"artistic"/[insert subjective word]. I remember Olga Markova had this spreadeagle/Ina Bauer hybrid that I found quite unique and attractive, despite being on two distinct edges.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by icyboid
ITA. I rewatched clips of both of them doing spreadeagles, and all this nitpicking seems irrelevant when you see their spreadeagles in action and in the context of a program. It isn't irrelevant to me. There are a few things that I think are, visually, ugly ---a "beagle" like Michelle's, sit spins where the skater doesn't sit, are among my top pet peeves. They are easily recognizable, and just darned ugly!Don't know why skaters do them (well the sit is required), when there are so many other moves they could choose that would showcase their strengths.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by hiliairyh
Neither Michelle or Sasha's SP are perfect, there are strengths and flaws in both. I can tell who are the posters who love Sasha's and who love Michelle's and who are saying negative things about one and positive things about the other just by their usernames without even reading their posts.

For good SP in a lady skater one word Josee, with honor mention yukina Ota. :) Perhaps you "think" you can discern who is going to say what just by reading a name, however, you just might learn a few things if you actually read the posts. Not everyone is a "Fan" with a "F". I would like to think that most of us can enjoy the beauty and strengths in lots of different skaters. No skater is the best at everything all the time. And it is sad that people feel that they have to defend a skater as if they were.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by skatepixie
In fact, Cecilia (i forget her last name...she was the 1st woman to do a double of any kind...so her last name should be easy to find...or someone who, unlike me, is running on a full nights sleep can tell you) of CAN, nearly beat her at the '36 Olympics. The layback was invented as part of Cecilia's attempt.

You're talking about Cecilia Colledge, but she's British, not Canadian.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Italiano
I'm sure there is a women out there who can land a perfect spread eagle. Whether we ever get to see her is a whole other question for a whole other thread.

There is. Elena Berezhnaya. I think her spread eagles are probably the best of any woman.

[Italiano]

Thank you Icenut, I knew there had to be.

[hiliairyh]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Perhaps you "think" you can discern who is going to say what just by reading a name, however, you just might learn a few things if you actually read the posts. Not everyone is a "Fan" with a "F". I would like to think that most of us can enjoy the beauty and strengths in lots of different skaters. No skater is the best at everything all the time. And it is sad that people feel that they have to defend a skater as if they were.

Well, I try to speed read through the messages actually. Perhaps I think, but what I predicted before I read each post and the outcome of the FANS' vote has not disappoint me yet ;) When I think about it, I haven't seen any FANS vote different whether the discussion is on SP, spirals, footwork, basic skating skills, jump technique, artistry, presentation, Russian split, falling leaf etc.

BTW, I did not say I didn't learn anything. I for sure have a lot of fun reading too. :) It will be more fun, if the FANS will say something nice about their non favorites, and I don't mean, I like her footwork, I think her footwork is second best compare to my favorite skater's footwork.

Back to topic, I have to add Arakawa's SP. In her Turandot program and the exhbition program this year, there are some really nicely done SP.

Talk about beagles, I think Richard Callaghan needs to help Jennifer Kirk on the SP. I am a big Jenny fan, but SP is not her strength LOL

About the car comparison of "a Ferrari and a Toyota ". Actually I think it is more of a DeLlorean, remember those cars with gull wing doors versus a Mercedes or Delorean vs a top of the line Volvo. :) Mercedes or top of the line Volvo may not have sexy looking gull wing doors, but I choose a Mercedes or top quality Volvo over a DeLorean anyday, even a Toyota beats a DeLorean by miles in my book. :)

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by hiliairyh
Well, I try to speed read through the messages actually. Perhaps I think, but what I predicted before I read each post and the outcome of the FANS' vote has not disappoint me yet ;) When I think about it, I haven't seen any FANS vote different whether the discussion is on SP, spirals, footwork, basic skating skills, jump technique, artistry, presentation, Russian split, falling leaf etc.

BTW, I did not say I didn't learn anything. I for sure have a lot of fun reading too. :) It will be more fun, if the FANS will say something nice about their non favorites, and I don't mean, I like her footwork, I think her footwork is second best compare to my favorite skater's footwork.

B :) Thanks for the nice response. It is appreciated. I, too, think it would be refreshing for FANS (as you say) to point out the great things about some of the other skaters. In fact, I think it would be a great thread in and of itself.

If I had more time this am, I would set it up.......something like: Who is your favorite lady. List three things that you feel are superior in her skating, and two you would like to see improved. Now, the other ladies....list three things they are great at, and one you would like to see improved.

I am not a Michelle FAN, (with huge big letters). However, that doesn't stop me from saying the following:

Her falling leaf is the best I have ever seen.

Her jumps are so secure, you are never left wondering if she is gonna make it.

She is the smartest competitor out there.

She revolutionized skating, and has given us some of the most memorable skating moments in history.

Now, if I had time to watch only one skater, I would choose another. But, I must say, I have watched her 2004 Nats LP over and over.

Back to spread eagles. I agree....Jenny Kirk needs find a better move. When you are talking about SP, do you mean SE? (spread eagle). I got a little confused in there.

[danibellerika]

Hmmm...this could be a new thread. I'll start one.

[Italiano]

I have to ask just how Michelle has revolutionized skating? To me she has always stayed the same. She has won many times because others fell. I also think she has been the money shot for the U.S federation for years, meaning her name sells tickets. She has been held up at Nationals and way over scored time and again. Some women skaters revolutionized skating by doing things that were thought of as impossible, In my opinion, Michelle is not one of them.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Italiano
I have to ask just how Michelle has revolutionized skating? To me she has always stayed the same. She has won many times because others fell. I also think she has been the money shot for the U.S federation for years, meaning her name sells tickets. She has been held up at Nationals and way over scored time and again. Some women skaters revolutionized skating by doing things that were thought of as impossible, In my opinion, Michelle is not one of them. I agree with a lot of what you say. However, if you look back before that, with Solome, Michelle re-invented "presentation". She pushed the bar and importance of the presentation mark, and was virtually alone in that end of the competitive field. You just always knew that Michelle could make up whatever she missed with her presentation. That is how she could win, even when she fell. The second mark was so far and away ahead of anyone else, that she had lots of room for error in the first mark.

[Italiano]

It will be interesting to see if presentation marks will hold her scores up under the new CoP.

[duane]

Italiano,
I disagree with your claim that michelle has been "held up at Nationals...time and time again". I think the only questionable win for Michelle at Nationals was in 2000. All the others were easily well deserved.

Ok, back to the thread (which I have no comment on, mainly because I dont think the spread eagle is--or has ever been--the deciding factor in a competition)...

[Italiano]

duane, I was repling to Axelannie's post about MK revolutionizing skating.

[hiliairyh]

Originally posted by duane

Ok, back to the thread (which I have no comment on, mainly because I dont think the spread eagle is--or has ever been--the deciding factor in a competition)...

Well, I still hope Ellyn will return to this thread and post more about the spread eagle, otherwise this thread too is becoming yet another Mk versus SC thread.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
I agree with a lot of what you say. However, if you look back before that, with Solome, Michelle re-invented "presentation". She pushed the bar and importance of the presentation mark, and was virtually alone in that end of the competitive field. You just always knew that Michelle could make up whatever she missed with her presentation. That is how she could win, even when she fell. The second mark was so far and away ahead of anyone else, that she had lots of room for error in the first mark.

I'm not sure about that. If you're talking about Salome, that was the same year as Lu Chen did her Rachmaninov LP, and they were considered to BOTH be that good in the artistic part of skating. Re: the marks, at Worlds Michelle got two 6.0s for presentation and Lulu also got two 6.0s. They were judged as quite equal in that respect.

I also don't understand why you say Michelle "re-invented presenation" - I find that a bit strange. Yes, she was great, but there were several skaters before her who pushed the presentation-boundary. Katarina Witt with Carmen in 1988 was *the* artistic skater of the time - a lot of people think her performance was the best Carmen interpretation there's been, and we all know how many there've been! Plus you can't forget Oksana Baiul. There's also probably many others, such as Kristi Yamaguchi. I'm a fan of Michelle, but IMO she just continued on from others as an artistic skater. (Though I don't think all her programmes are that artistic any more, certainly not compared with some of the ones she's done before.)

[Ellyn]

All I can say is that the spread eagle is a very old skating move that has been around for 200 years or so. Obviously the quality of the positions has varied widely among skaters who have performed it in various eras, depending on the anatomic makeup of the individual skaters and how much time they devoted to improving their flexibility in the necessary directions, and the aesthetic standards of the time.

It is never a required element (except a brief inside edge eagle in the man's part of the Golden Waltz) precisely because the ability to perform it well depends more on the skater's anatomical structure than on their skating skill. Some beginners to whom that position comes easily can do better spread eagles than some elite skaters who don't have the necessary turnout.

Therefore there are no written rules about what constitutes correct execution of that element. Just generally accepted standards for what makes a good spread eagle.

A fully extended and turned out position that emulates what ballet dancers achieve and also includes deep lean over the edges is obviously difficult to achieve and deserves admiration.

But in comparing skaters who do better at one aspect of the move than another, different judges might disagree on how much to value the body position as opposed to the edge quality, for example. Very few skaters can do every aspect of the move perfectly, but a skater who can do it reasonably well for the level he or she competes at certainly should receive credit for doing so. And sometimes skaters will vary the move on purpose in ways that intentionally deviate from the standard (e.g., spread eagle with bent knees) and should be taken on their own terms.

It's not a question of Wylie standard or worthless, with nothing in between. Watch preliminary level skaters, and you'll see plenty of examples that would stand out like sore thumbs in elite competition but are valuable elements at that level. Watch intermediate skaters, and you'll see some pretty good ones.

[Giselle]

er..sorry to butt in here..but I am curios about this skaters's sp. Is it a good one or is it flawed?
http://www.pixieworld.net/takeshihonda/photos/taho-ske-gsoi03-4-22.jpg

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by icenut84
boundary. Katarina Witt with Carmen in 1988 was *the* artistic skater of the time - a lot of people think her performance was the best Carmen interpretation there's been, and we all know how many there've been!

Just going off topic a little bit here ...

I always find it odd that Witt was labeled as an "artistic skater" in the late 80s. In the early and mid 80s commentators always referred to her as the athelete while Roz was the artist. Janet Lynn once commented that Witt's lower body was only trained to jump, or something like that. Suddenly after the 84 Olympics, commentators started calling her the artist while labelling Debbi Thomas the athlete. Witt stroked across the ice like her blade was digging into the ice instead of floating above it, and she didn't really strike any particularly beautiful positions, eg. no extension, no pointed toes, no arched back, .... I think her high presentation marks in the late 80s came mainly from her on-ice personality and image. She knew that people find her striking and charming on the ice, and she and her coach played up those aspects of her pesonality to the hilt.

[DDSK8]

Here is another good example of a spread eagle. I also think Jordan Wilson has one of the best ones out there.......

http://http://www.pixagogo.com/0175155202

[DDSK8]

http://www.pixagogo.com/0175155202