Maria Butyrskaya Interview

[adrianchew]

From...

http://www.pressball.by

Translated at...

http://www.frogsonice.com/gateway/skatefans/msg04611.html

About her career...

[b:422cb5ed29]Did you ever think about ending your skating career before?[/b:422cb5ed29]

[i:422cb5ed29]Others wanted to force me into retirement. Remember, how press was rocking in my twice golden year, 1999 - I won World and Europeans at the age of 26! I kept skating in spite of everybody. As last season showed, it paid off. The gold medal from the Europeans was a reward for my efforts, worries, deprivation, and stubbornness. I was tolerant that whole year because I had a goal: to skate well in my last Olympics.[/i:422cb5ed29]

About the Olympics...

[b:422cb5ed29]Do you think you've reached that goal?[/b:422cb5ed29]

[i:422cb5ed29]It's a little painful for me to remember the Salt Lake City. Not everything depends on the athlete, there are many factors that influence the results. I realized very well that ladies event is probably the only event where Americans can take the gold. It wouldn't be hard to guess that judges will protect the hosts in any case. I could only get a medal if Irina Slutskaya skated short program badly. By the way, that happened during the Olympic season more than once. If Slutskaya would fail, they would pay attention to another Russian - me. Russia could've not be left without ladies' medal. I was just a backup.

Slutskaya skated short program well. She should have not stopped later - she didn't even try triple/triple combination. American girl, Sarah Hughes, risked and she made it! Under-rotated jumps? So what! Those who were not happy with competition results had to find something to pick on Sarah. They pointed that she wasn't artistic. I think Hughes looked brighter than Slutskaya, she was more professional. Slutskaya behaved like a whiner. Why did she had to cry and yell everywhere she went that 5.6 for presentation is an never seen before mix-up and make a galactic tragedy out of it?[/i:422cb5ed29]

[b:422cb5ed29]Did you say it to Irina's face?[/b:422cb5ed29]

[i:422cb5ed29]We don't talk to each other.[/i:422cb5ed29]

[b:422cb5ed29]So, you think Hughes deserved to be an Olympic champion?[/b:422cb5ed29]

[i:422cb5ed29]It would've been fair if Michelle Kwan won in Salt Lake City...[/i:422cb5ed29]

The future of ladies FS...

[b:422cb5ed29]Your prediction: what is the future of ladies skating?[/b:422cb5ed29]

[i:422cb5ed29]Very soon American Sasha Cohen will get all the gold at Grand Prix and Worlds. This American with Ukrainian roots is genius. She's got beautiful soft and smooth edging, plus Cohen is very flexible and that allows her to do tricks sometimes. The biggest strength of that miniature girl is that her jumping ability connects with her emotions. She can play with the audience, she reached the spectators. She is already well known and well received.[/i:422cb5ed29]

[b:422cb5ed29]What does Cohen lack? Maybe she feels inferior to famous Michelle Kwan and new Olympic champion Sarah Hughes?[/b:422cb5ed29]

[i:422cb5ed29]I think it's the other way around. Sasha understands that she is good. This girl just have to mature psychologically and replace her Slavic liveliness with American coolness. So, I bet on Cohen.[/i:422cb5ed29]

[adrianchew]

Here's my thoughts now...

Russian Rivalries

This is clearly evident amongst Russian skaters - Aleksei/Plushy/Abt, Irina/Maria, etc. The intensity of which seems to be greater than seen amongst US or Canadian skaters.

SLC Podium

Maria seems to not mind that Sarah won, or even if Michelle had won. Its nice to see the respect she has for American ladies skaters.

The Future

I'm speechless! She picked Sasha as the future - that speaks volumes of how big an impact Sasha had on the skating world last year. Its nice to that even rival skaters recognize her talent and potential.

[AxelAnnie22]

[quote:a4e79e0d6a="adrianchew"]Here's my thoughts now...



SLC Podium

Maria seems to not mind that Sarah won, or even if Michelle had won. Its nice to see the respect she has for American ladies skaters.

The Future

I'm speechless! She picked Sasha as the future - that speaks volumes of how big an impact Sasha had on the skating world last year. Its nice to that even rival skaters recognize her talent and potential.[/quote:a4e79e0d6a]

[color=indigo:a4e79e0d6a]I have a slightly different take on her comments about SLC. I got the impression she thought an American was going to win because it was the host country....not because American Ladies were good. I also thought she was happy that anyone but Irina won! LOL!


Regarding The Future: How cool is that. Maria's artistry is quite wonderful, so to have her give the nod to Sasha is extra special. Also, a former world champion, Maria's opinion is held in high regard. To have any skater say those wonderful things about another skater, is pretty amazing!! [/color:a4e79e0d6a]

[quote:a4e79e0d6a]
What does Cohen lack? Maybe she feels inferior to famous Michelle Kwan and new
Olympic champion Sarah Hughes?

I think it's the other way around. Sasha understands that she is good. This girl just have to mature
psychologically and replace her Slavic liveliness with American coolness. So, I bet on Cohen.[/quote:a4e79e0d6a]

[color=blue:a4e79e0d6a]I agree 100% with that assessment. I don't think "feeling inferior" is in Sasha's repetoire[/color:a4e79e0d6a] 8)

[jeffisjeff]

[quote:0f41096bd9="AxelAnnie22"][color=indigo]I have a slightly different take on her comments about SLC. I got the impression she thought an American was going to win because it was the host country....not because American Ladies were good. I also thought she was happy that anyone but Irina won! LOL! [/quote:0f41096bd9]

Well, to provide a more complete view of what she said:

[i:0f41096bd9]"It wouldn't be hard to guess that judges will protect the hosts in any case. I could only get a medal if Irina Slutskaya skated short program badly. By the way, that happened during the Olympic season more than once. If Slutskaya would fail, they would pay attention to another Russian - me. Russia could've not be left without ladies' medal. I was just a backup."[/i:0f41096bd9]

So really she seemed to think the bias went both ways.

[duane]

thanks adrian for posting that awesome interview. i've always loved maria's frankness, and wish more skaters were as open as she is.

and, anyone who picks sasha cohen as the future of ladies skating knows what she's talking about! :D

[Woofy2]

thanks adrian for the link. and hello duane! :)

"I realized very well that ladies event is probably the only event where Americans can take the gold."

maria is perhaps right on this. of all the 4 disciplines in SLC, the ladies was the best bet for the americans to take gold. furthermore, she may be right also that the host country usually do better overall than if they are not.

"It would've been fair if Michelle Kwan won in Salt Lake City... "

i wish that she could expand on that, but my interpretation is that she would prefer michelle to win, and that would be nice. i mean, after all, maria does acknowledge that michelle is a tough competitor, and perhaps there's some sympathy factor in it too in that both skaters have longevity in them. between michelle and irina, maria has made it clear that she would want michelle to win. however, i think she's fooling herself if she thinks that it would still be fair if michelle had won gold in SLC.

it's nice to see that maria acknowledges sasha's skating on the world level. hey, she may be right. :)

talking about being nasty, but does anyone know why she does not have any high regards to irina? i mean, it's not on the same level of michelle v.s. sarah, sasha, or even tara here in the states. :)

[rack]

I have read the discussions of this interview with Maria Butyrskaya both here and at FS Universe, and I've been startled both by Butyrskaya's cynicism, and the lack of response to it. While I grant you that Butyrskaya projects a kind of Mayo Methot/Bette Davis-when- she-was-young-and-blonde-quality, both on the ice and off, what she's saying is pretty hard boiled.

Here are some of her points: There are many factors that influence the results. The ladies event is probably the only event where Americans can take the gold. It wouldn't be hard to guess that judges will protect the hosts in any case.

I could only get a medal if Irina Slutskaya skated the short program badly. If Slutskaya would fall, they would pay attention to another Russian-me. Russia could've not be left without ladies' medal. I was just a backup

To the first point, I have to wonder where it's written that the host country is guaranteed gold for at least one discipline. I thought performances and not national origin was what was being judged.

The second point, that the only way Butyrskaya could medal was if Slutskaya didn't, is even more upsetting. Again, I didn't know there was a national quota (apparently neither did the judges- unless it's all right for two Russian men to medal, or two U.S. ladies). Nor did I know that Russia was guaranteed one medal (if only one) in ladies (assuming I read through all the double negatives in the translation correctly).

Maria Butyrskaya has been a top flight figure skater for many years, and a very recent World Champion. Are other skaters of her caliber that cynical about judging? And if she's right, that results are to a great extent predetermined based on nationality, are we fans also so cynical that it's not even worth noting?

[duane]

[quote:3c5a6df765="rack"]Here are some of her points: The ladies event is probably the only event where Americans can take the gold. It wouldn't be hard to guess that judges will protect the hosts in any case.

I could only get a medal if Irina Slutskaya skated the short program badly. If Slutskaya would fall, they would pay attention to another Russian-me. Russia could've not be left without ladies' medal. I was just a backup.[/quote:3c5a6df765]

i see these points differently.

regarding the first, i think that maria is saying that judges protect the hosts of any country, not just when the US is the host. again, "protect" the hosts--not just award medals to unworthy performances. to be honest, i do think that if the 2002 Olympics had been held in Russia, irina would have definitely won gold. also, i remember many posters believed that maria should have placed over sarah in the SP. i think if the Olympics were held in russia, she would have.

i think maria is right on target when she said that the ladies event "is probably the only event where Americans can take the gold." IMO, the probability that an American would win the gold in the men's, pairs', or dance was zero.

i'm not sure exactly what maria means when she states that "russia could've not be left without ladies medal". i dont believe she is talking in terms of a quota (i mean, both maria and irina were at the 98 Olympics, and no russian lady won an Olympic medal that year). perhaps she is still talking about what she believes is a host bias, and that irina--being the top-ranked skater in the world--was the only skater who, other than the americans, the judges would pay close "attention" to. maria seems to be saying that her (or russia's) only chance of garnering the "attention" would be if irina (the "top" russian, who many agreed was guaranteed a medal baring no meltdown) [b:3c5a6df765]had[/b:3c5a6df765] that meltdown, and erred badly in the SP. in a way, maria [b:3c5a6df765]was [/b:3c5a6df765]russia's "backup" skater.

[icenut84]

[quote:2dd8e88809="Woofy2"]"It would've been fair if Michelle Kwan won in Salt Lake City... "

i wish that she could expand on that, but my interpretation is that she would prefer michelle to win, and that would be nice. i mean, after all, maria does acknowledge that michelle is a tough competitor, and perhaps there's some sympathy factor in it too in that both skaters have longevity in them. between michelle and irina, maria has made it clear that she would want michelle to win. however, i think she's fooling herself if she thinks that it would still be fair if michelle had won gold in SLC.[/quote:2dd8e88809]

The word "fair" can be used as the opposite to unfair, but another meaning of it is "nice". I don't think she was saying that Michelle deserved to win following the performances, but that it would have been nice if Michelle had won. Maria competed against her in 98 and they were close rivals on the ice following that, so Maria will probably know a lot about Michelle's career. She probably had the opinion that a lot of fans have, that it would have been nice if Michelle won the gold because she lost out last time and she's been at the top of the game for so long. I think it is a sweet thing to say about your competitor, instead of saying you wanted to win, period.

[Gaela]

I tend to take her comments as quite honest--in SLC, there probably was a 'plan' to give a Russian girl a medal, and American girl the gold. Perhaps this kind of scheming goes on all the time--the skater indicate that it does--sort of a pre-competition preference or bais or bloc judging or whatever you call it--.

It is kind of refreshing, but I am yet to be convinced that it is the truth. We tend to make patterns out of what we see--take the Rorschash test as an example--and as discussion on the boards show, for every rule found about judging preferences there is always an exception.

Admit the bias--sure--but skate to win. Neither B&S or S&P did that in SLC, but Sarah Hughes did. Maria did not skate her best, and had she outskated Irina--would she have beat her? It's possible, isn's it? Maria has never had the nerves of a champion, although she is by far my favorite among the women at SLC.

It is a sport. Don't blame it on the host country. But maybe I'm wrong--Maria would be on the podium were the Olympics in Russia?

Somehow I think the podium would look much the same. There have always been Russians and Americans on the podium, and I wonder if we go back through Olympic history--can we find proof that Russians win more medals and Golds in Russia than they do in North America? And vice versa?

What bothers me--the Russian ladies haven't gotten anywhere near the attention as the Russian men, pairs, and dance. They have not been nurtured and encouraged as the rest.

Its sad, ultimately, to see Maria leave her amatuer career on such a sad note.

[rack]

I almost included the Michelle comment in my previous post, thinking that Maria meant Michelle was entitled to a lifetime achievement award gold, but then I realized if Michelle had taken second in the long program, she would have won the gold.

I decided it was perfectly possible Maria thought that Michelle had outskated Irina in the long program (there have been others who have argued that, at least at the late lamented FS World), so I felt that was the most likely explanation of Maria's comment about Michelle and left it out of my discussion.

[AxelAnnie22]

[color=blue:460113fa40]I didn't take Maria's comment that Ladies was the only place as American could win as any kind of collusion or back room deals. I think it was a statement of the fact that Ladies is the only discipline of the four where the American's had a skater good enough to win.

Also, I think the interpretation that Maria thought it would have been "nice" if Michelle won is probably closer to the truth.

It is not surprising that Maria has bitter feelings toward Irina. Although the feelings may not be "personal", Maria must be pretty bitter over the disparity of treatment between Irina and herself. Irina received oodles of support, and Maria kept being told to take up a different sport! I suspect that inherent in the Russian system is the breeding of this fierce type of rivalry.
[/color:460113fa40]

[NorthernLite]

[quote:b8bd9c80a5="rack"]
I have to wonder where it's written that the host country is guaranteed gold for at least one discipline. ... [/quote:b8bd9c80a5]

Actually rack, I have seen translations of comments by other Russians that the Americans had the advantage because they were the host country (and even implications that S&P had an advantage being from North America). I too found that bizarre.

Evidently Tatiana Danilenko didn't get the memo during the GPF and Olympics about being nice to the North Americans. :lol:

Also I don't know if this is going OT but it's on my mind because I just posted on it elsewhere. It's worth remembering that Sasha has yet to do *two* clean programs back to back. She'll have to do *three* pretty clean ones at a GPF and Worlds if she's going to medal/win.

[hiliairyh]

[quote:03e87fae8f="rack"]

I decided it was perfectly possible Maria thought that Michelle had outskated Irina in the long program (there have been others who have argued that, at least at the late lamented FS World), so I felt that was the most likely explanation of Maria's comment about Michelle and left it out of my discussion.[/quote:03e87fae8f]

Maria has never cared for the "15 year old girls". I thought she meant Tara, and Sarah, when she made that statement a while back. Interestingly one fo the 15 year old phenom who beat Maria in world 96 was Michelle. Seems like over the years Maria has developed a respect for Kwan. Maybe in time she will feel the same way about Sarah, who at 15 beat Maria in worlds 2001. Oh I do not mean Maria does not like Sarah. If SH stays till 2006, she may be the first lady skater since Witt to win 2 Olympic gold medals.

I do not really know whether Maria meant Michelle should have won based on her skate at SLC, or her lifetime achievement.
Whats up with Russian skaters not like Irina's skating? Yagudin said she, "skates like a man", and he prefers Michelle's skating.

About Sasha's fuiture, it will be interesting to see the Sarah and Sasha match up.

[Dragonlady]

Irina is not the "classic" skater that one normally coming out of Russia. Her style is more athletic - emphasis on speed and power, not balletic at all, which is practically a Russian trade mark.

That's why I find this whole argument that the European judges have a cultural preferance for the "Russian" style of skating (balletic, detailed), therefore they place B&S first over the more "North American" (athletic and more technically challenging) S&P. And their reason for placing Irina (atheltic and more technically challenging) over Michelle (balletic, detail) would be? It seems to me the so-called "European style preference" is based more on nationality than skating style.

I like both styles of skating so, not surprisingly, I like both B&S and S&P, and Irina, Michelle and Sarah. Elvis' style, however, leaves me cold.

[loveskating]

Very interesting interview...I always adore the straight up rivalry talk amongst the Russians...as opposed to the easy virtue "fluff" nonsense and dirty tricks that we seem to engage in...when it is as clear as water that some of these competitors here absolutely hate their nearest rival and would do anything to them they could get away with! Its always refreshing to me to hear it straight from the horses' mouth, so to speak, LOL, and yet I don't see any dirty tricks from the Russians?

I don't think it was "unfair" that Sarah won at SLC....but at the same time, I could never agree with "underrotated jumps, so what" except on the loop combos. Sarah was brighter than Irina and certainly more than Michelle...not more than Sasha.

I do think Maria's comments added up to stating that the outcomes are as rigged as heck, braodly speaking, and that might be true, or perhaps not.

I just hope Maria is right about Sasha...and I agreed with everything she said about her. Upon seeing a tape of Sasha skating for the first time in 2000, my daughter said, "My, she has great edges for one so tiny...look at those backward crossovers...bet she has quiet edges." My kid was a natural on edges, for some reason, had great edging.

[Gaela]

"And their reason for placing Irina (atheltic and more technically challenging) over Michelle (balletic, detail) would be? It seems to me the so-called "European style preference" is based more on nationality than skating style."

There reason was simple: to give Sara the gold. Had Sara been in third after the SP, Michelle would likely have been given the silver. I would have had Irina first in the short and Michelle second in the long, but wouldn't that have still given it to Sara?

The Russian ladies don't usually get the preference--except maybe Oksana Bauel but I've not seen Oksana vs Nancy. Pairs and dance is traditionally Russia's Gold territory--look at how B&S and the men prepared, compared to the ladies. The ladies just don't get that extra attention and primed to win.

I'd still like to believe that maybe, sometimes, the best skater can win. Sometimes I wonder if all these ideas about so-and-so should win, will win work out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Having the Olympics in Canada certainly didn't get a gold for Liz Manley or Brian Orser!! But--the rules were better then? Having the technical be the tie-breaker--I actually agree with that.

[loveskating]

[quote:0bdf358d4b="NorthernLite"]Also I don't know if this is going OT but it's on my mind because I just posted on it elsewhere. It's worth remembering that Sasha has yet to do *two* clean programs back to back. She'll have to do *three* pretty clean ones at a GPF and Worlds if she's going to medal/win.[/quote:0bdf358d4b]

Isn't this inaccurate? Sasha skated two clean programs at Cup of Russia in 2001, before her injury forced her out prior to Nationals. Her skates at Nationals 2002 were clean (a hand down is not going to disqualify the jump...although the Zayak rule violation might...I've never been clear on that...if its just a mandatory deduction in the LP or if it disqualifies the jump entirely?). She has skated two clean programs at some of the Pro Ams.

[b:0bdf358d4b]In any case, its an abstract construct and fallacy that two clean skates is necessary all the time to win: [/b:0bdf358d4b]Michelle Kwan (and numerous other skaters) won numerous gold medals, not to mention silver and bronze ones, with less than clean back to back skates:
Gold at Worlds 1998: waxed 2 axel in the LP
Silver at 1997 Nationals: Numerous splats
Silver at 1997 Worlds: Splat in SP
Silver in 1999 at Worlds: splat on 2 axel in SP
Nationals 1999: splat on 2nd lutz
Nationals 2000: splat in SP on 3 toe loop and on loop in LP
Gold at 2000 Worlds: almost fell on jump in SP and was in 3rd behind Butereskaya and Irina as a result
Gold at 2001 Worlds, Kwan flutzed and two footed her lutz in the SP.
If the pro ams are included, lots of errors as I recall.

Medals don't imply clean skates....[b:0bdf358d4b]or[/b:0bdf358d4b] great performances; sometimes, one wins because they skated better, not their own personal best! For instance, if Irina had splatted in her LP at the Olympics, Kwan would have won the gold, not Sarah, despite a splat on her (Kwan's) flip jump and two footing her 3 toe loop and a generally very substandard skate in the LP, not to mention an underrotated flip in the SP.

[NorthernLite]

[quote:519d5c64c6="loveskating"]its an abstract construct and fallacy that two clean skates is necessary all the time to win .....
Medals don't imply clean skates....[b:519d5c64c6]or[/b:519d5c64c6] great performances[/quote:519d5c64c6]

I wasn't implying that a skater has to skate perfectly cleanly -- or brilliantly -- to win a gold, let alone any other medal. But it certainly helps to be consistent over the course of an event. You must always perform just that little better than your opponents do at that particular competition. And Sasha has yet to quite achieve that at any major *international.*

And since IIRC the free skate has usually been where Sasha has had problems, it was worth remembering that at Worlds and the GPF, skaters need to perform two longs.

Even if MK doesn't compete, with Sarah/Irina/Fumie/Sasha, etc., on the scene, plus the new, anonymous judging procedure @ Worlds ... I predict there will be much to discuss. :D

[duane]

[quote:1a8793fbc8="NorthernLite"]...it certainly helps to be consistent over the course of an event. You must always perform just that little better than your opponents do at that particular competition. And Sasha has yet to quite achieve that at any major *international.*[/quote:1a8793fbc8]

perhaps, but give credit where credit is due. in sasha's [b:1a8793fbc8]first[/b:1a8793fbc8] year as a senior eligible skater, she came in 4th place at the two most prestigious competitions (and at THE most prestigious competition--the olympics--a serious argument can be made that she should have made the podium). she didnt skate two clean programs, but it's sez a lot when a skater, after faltering, can contain her composure and perform so well in such pressure-filled events.

[Dragonlady]

Uh, Duane, this was Sasha's second year as a senior elligible. She skated the Grand Prix events in 2000/2001 as well. No she didn't do Nationals or Worlds, but she was still doing senior elite events last year, and given her results and the way that Sarah and Angela skated at Nationals, it's highly unlikely she would have gone to Worlds even if she had skated Nationals.

This is not to take away from Sasha's fine results at the Olympics or Worlds, just that it was not her first senior season.

[jeffisjeff]

Well, at this time last year I was really annoyed with all the Sasha hype she recevied relative to other skaters with similar records. I felt that she had not done much to deserve all the hype. But this year is a different matter entirely. I now feel that, through her performances last year at Nationals, Olympics and Worlds (whether entirely clean or not), she has proved her doubters (including myself) wrong.

[originalQA]

[quote:f4826572a2="jeffisjeff"]Well, at this time last year I was really annoyed with all the Sasha hype she recevied relative to other skaters with similar records. I felt that she had not done much to deserve all the hype. But this year is a different matter entirely. I now feel that, through her performances last year at Nationals, Olympics and Worlds (whether entirely clean or not), she has proved her doubters (including myself) wrong.[/quote:f4826572a2]

I used to say that Sasha was a fluke, and while I no longer feel that way, I am far from crowning her the next/current "big thing".
She almost has a Bobekish off/on/off again quality about her.
While I feel that Sasha is 1000% more serious with training than Nicole, I have yet to see anything that makes me think she will take the crown from Michelle. IMO.

[adrianchew]

[quote:4622781a22="Dragonlady"]Uh, Duane, this was Sasha's second year as a senior elligible. She skated the Grand Prix events in 2000/2001 as well. No she didn't do Nationals or Worlds, but she was still doing senior elite events last year, and given her results and the way that Sarah and Angela skated at Nationals, it's highly unlikely she would have gone to Worlds even if she had skated Nationals.[/quote:4622781a22]

From my impressions being in Boston for 2001 US Nationals, neither Sarah nor Angela were unbeatable - they did better than the other ladies there save for Michelle (who performed brilliantly for the short, and a pretty outstanding freeskate too). Surprises do happen - a skater can do average at the Grand Prix and still pull a surprise at Nationals - Sasha's GP season was not nearly indicative of what she did later this past season at 2002 US Nationals.

And she did win silver at 1999 US Nationals - a better result than both Hughes or Nikodinov. This was what produced the hype - on her first senior year, 2nd at Nationals. Hype often relates to potential, that may not be realized immediately - but serves as an "eye opener". Sometimes hype leads to "duds" but just 2 years later, the hype seems have proven herself as a contender, much as some might not like to admit.

[LAVENDER]

I feel that Maria felt Michelle should have won overall. I think she felt Sarah won the long and that perhaps Michelle should have come in 2nd and won overall.

[Amy L]

Remember- if Michelle had been second in the long program, she would have won overall. I think Maria was saying that Michelle should have beaten Irina in the LP (not surprising, Maria and Irina are obviously not buddies), which means that Michelle would have won, Sarah would have been second, and Irina third. That's what I took it to mean when she said it would have been more fair if Michelle won.

[loveskating]

Well, I disagree that Sasha has ever had any hype...in fact, I think she has been the most harshly judged skater given the quality of her skating in some time. She certainly won silver at U.S. Nationals in 2000 fair and sqaure, and an argument could very easily be made that she deserved to win gold there!

Sasha is also very popular with the public...remember when she won the Internet vote for the Improv in 2001? She is just the kind of skater people love to see, as Dick Button said, she "floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee".

In any case, she did skate two back to back clean programs in 2000/2001 at Cup of Russia, where I think she finished 4th, and more than a few pro ams she has skated two clean programs...and again, in any case, skating 2 clean programs back to back is NOT necessary to win gold or any other medal...I can't even believe the number of gold medals skaters have won with serious mistakes, and even splats...among them Kristi in 1992 at the Olympics!!

[jeffisjeff]

[quote:57089c7e77="loveskating"]Well, I disagree that Sasha has ever had any hype...in fact, I think she has been the most harshly judged skater given the quality of her skating in some time. [/quote:57089c7e77]

Well, being hyped and being harshly judged are not mutually exclusive. More likely, Sasha has been harshly judged (by internet fans anyway) because she has been so hyped.

[adrianchew]

[quote:81f03b60e3="jeffisjeff"]Well, being hyped and being harshly judged are not mutually exclusive. More likely, Sasha has been harshly judged (by internet fans anyway) because she has been so hyped.[/quote:81f03b60e3]

While we're on the topic - I'm curious - can anyone quantify the "hype" and explain what exactly they're referring to? Is it the press predicting she'll win tons of medals, or fans predicting the same for her? Is the hype more about the quality or preceived quality of her skating, that some were disappointed were not up to the levels they had heard?

Media hype is goes as fast as it comes - right now Sasha is sometimes given mentions, but the actual reporting will be on Sarah Hughes or Michelle Kwan. You could say both these skaters are receiving some media hype at this point of time - its foolish to make predictions for '06 Olympics, and Sarah despite winning the Olympics is not perfect in her skating.

Sarah has been "hyped" for quite a while on TV too by Peggy Fleming - for quite a while she never had results either. But in due time, that hype turned to real results. Perhaps Sasha's time is yet to come.

So then - why some folks have chosen to single out Sasha is beyond me. She does get hype - but so do other skaters. Seems that no matter what some folks claim - its personal biases and irrational rather than rational motivations, that drives this constant harping of rather frivilous hype supposedly said about a fine skater.

[jeffisjeff]

[quote:df7d16a005="adrianchew"]
While we're on the topic - I'm curious - can anyone quantify the "hype" and explain what exactly they're referring to?
...
Media hype is goes as fast as it comes - right now Sasha is sometimes given mentions, but the actual reporting will be on Sarah Hughes or Michelle Kwan.
...
Sarah has been "hyped" for quite a while on TV too by Peggy Fleming - for quite a while she never had results either. [/quote:df7d16a005]

I guess I should have been more clear. I was really thinking about "internet hype". I guess I would define "internet hype" as developing a following of ardent fans promoting someone as the next great thing when the actual results, at that time, are not strong enough to merit such claims.

Thus, I do not think the term, as I define it, applies to Sarah or Michelle (in the past couple of years) since both have the results. Michelle we know. Sarah, I believe, was 7th, 5th, 3rd, 1st in the world in the past few years (based on the most important competition of each year). Also, Sarah receives less ardent devotion from her internet fans than does Sasha (IMO).

Notice, as I pointed out in my previous post, I wouldn't say that Sasha is really being "hyped" NOW. I think in the past year she has proved that she may well be the next World champ. Thus if someone says they think she'll win everything next year, I wouldn't call it hype. Her results last year provide at least some evidence for such a statement.

[duane]

[quote:aa6559881f="originalQA"]I am far from crowning her the next/current "big thing".
She almost has a Bobekish off/on/off again quality about her.[/quote:aa6559881f]

i dont think nicole had an off/on/off again quality. in international competitions, she had an off/usually-off/off again quality. she would deteriorate under pressure, and once she made a mistake, many more would follow. this was more common than not throughout her eligible career. i think she should even thank her lucky stars for the only time she made the World podium, where she had those two awful, disasterous falls in the LP.

it's still very early in sasha's career, and none of us knows how it will end up. however, based on what we've seen so far, i see few similarities to nicole. i hope maria's prediction of sasha's career is more correct! :)

[loveskating]

The only way Sasha is like Nicole is that she is very naturally gifted.

I think Sasha pushes the envelope...she is not a conservative skater, and her elements are extremely difficult, in some cases setting a new standard. One senses from her skating that its not so much the metals she is after...that with her, its the performance that really counts. This is more of a Kurt Browning or Ilia Kulik quality, IMHO...but Sasha, unlike Ilia (or Nicole Bobek for that matter) is not very tall, it being harder to be consistent on the 3 jumps when one is tall.

[AxelAnnie22]

From Merriam Webster:
[quote:e82e5bd782]Main Entry: 4hype
Function: noun
Date: 1955
1 : DECEPTION, PUT-ON
2 : PUBLICITY; especially : promotional publicity of an
extravagant or contrived kind
[/quote:e82e5bd782]
[color=darkblue:e82e5bd782]
Assuming we are not alleging Deception, and using the dictionary definition, I do not think that Sasha has been Hyped by the media.

As far as "internet hype" as defined as crowning someone as the most exciting up and coming skater to hit the scene, and the results not supporting that, I wonder this:

How does a person with proven results qualify as an up and comer, or the next best thing? By definition, they either are the NEXT best thing to, or they have arrived. Therefore, medals do not enter into the mix while the person is in the "next best thing" phase.

I would like to assert the following: Sasha is the most exciting skater to come on the scene in the last three years (since NNN). Can anyone name a better, more exquisite new skater? The results will follow. The internet hype (as you define it) is completely merited, as Sasha IS exciting, and unless you can think of another skater of her calibre to hit the scene, she is also THE MOST EXCITING.

As far as media hype, - that would not be Sasha. Michelle and Sarah fit this bill. How many times have we watched Michelle sit on the beach and talk about UCLA - same clip - I could recite it! How many times have we listened to the ABC commentators talk in glowing terms about the two skaters who have ABC contracts: Michelle and Sarah? That is hype: promotional publicity of an extravagant kind!

Please note: I did not say any skater was not deserving of compliments. I did not say Michelle was not the most decorated skater. I did not say Sarah should not have won SLC, nor did I say that anyone had warts! I am simply speaking about hype - which is the topic, I think. [/color:e82e5bd782]

[rack]

Sarah signed a contract with General Electric, which is the parent company of NBC.

I haven't read anything about Sarah signing any contracts with ABC. I know she's scheduled to do a couple of skating specials, but I assumed they'd be on NBC.

Am I wrong about this?

[nits]

Every skater gets his/ her share of hype. Even Sasha. Sasha was hyped much more during the Olympics than Sarah. Sasha had the whole cellphone incident with the president, and some say that event was planned. Sasha has also had the quad hype this past season, and despite landing this cleanly in competition, she was being called the "quad queen."
Yeah, Michelle, Sarah, and even Irina (talks of 3/3/3, 3/3/3, 3axel) have had their fair share of hype, they are accomplished skaters. I think when Sasha proves herself, people will understand the hype a bit more. I think this season will provide Sasha with an excellent opportunity to show the world what she can do. With Michelle's absence, Sasha will have the opportunity to go head on with Sarah...depending on what Angela delivers.
It will be interesting to see what the judges do.

[loveskating]

IMHO its news when any woman lands a quad, anywhere, any time, in or out of competition. I undrestand no top lady skater since Surya has even attempted a quad in competition, and I've heard of few that have landed one anywhere at all.

If she is not "the quad queen" she is certainly among the quad queens!

I think its great that we have footage of Sasha landing a quad salchow in practice, and it was a beauty too...she made it look so easy.....we never would have gotten the footage if she hadn't gone for it. For me, seeing a girl, especially a tiny, elegent girl like Sasha, land a quad is as inspiring as can be.

AxelAnnie, I agree, all the skaters are hyped...and your language is circumspect...."extravagence with the facts", LOL!!!! I'd say, however, that if anything, Sasha has had a lot of negative hype...and very undeservedly, IMHO. Put another way, the Italian judge who gave her a 5.9 on presentation at Cup of Russia in 2001 was correct.

[~*balletic*~]

I think if Sasha was hyped at all it was at 2000 Nats. But since then, she has had a lot to overcome from various problems, including the whole warm up "incident" at 2002 Nationals.
Sasha has made her own hype by standing out in a very strong American field. People can't help but notice her on the merits of her skating.

[AxelAnnie22]

[quote:9da8ac14d9="rack"]Sarah signed a contract with General Electric, which is the parent company of NBC.

I haven't read anything about Sarah signing any contracts with ABC. I know she's scheduled to do a couple of skating specials, but I assumed they'd be on NBC.

Am I wrong about this?[/quote:9da8ac14d9]

[color=darkblue:9da8ac14d9]You are probably correct. After five teen agers, my brain is pretty iffy! LOL! I had thought that two or so years ago, Sarah had some kind of deal going with ABC. I remember thinking at the time that that went a long way to explain Peggy's excitement over Sarah. Not that I didn't think Sarah's skating was enjoyable - did. I just thought Peggy was a little over the top about it. [/color:9da8ac14d9]

[jeffisjeff]

[quote:70fb113a45="AxelAnnie22"]The internet hype (as you define it) is completely merited, as Sasha IS exciting, and unless you can think of another skater of her calibre to hit the scene, she is also THE MOST EXCITING.
[/quote:70fb113a45]

Well, that is your opinion. IMO, until last season, Sasha had not earned all of the predictions of glory spouted by her fans. And, IMO, it has nothing to do with whether or not there is a better up and coming skater. Rather, it has to do with whether the predictions made re Sasha were merited based on her performances and results. Certain people seem to not want to address this issue. Yes, Sasha had that 2nd place at Nationals. But I, in my personal analysis of Sasha's potential, combined that Nationals result with her disappointing performance at Junior Worlds and her very severe injury the following year (that could have ended her career). The net result was, IMO, a feeling of uncertainty about Sasha's potential and a feeling that she could just as easily disappear from the scene as be the next best thing.

Again, I point out tha this was my feeling prior to last season.

[adrianchew]

[quote:1ab4aafda7="jeffisjeff"]Well, that is your opinion. IMO, until last season, Sasha had not earned all of the predictions of glory spouted by her fans.[/quote:1ab4aafda7]

I'm not really sure what was going on the Internet then, but its important to differentiate "buzz" from "predictions of glory". I believe people recognized her potential, but were never certain of the results at that point.

[quote:1ab4aafda7]The net result was, IMO, a feeling of uncertainty about Sasha's potential and a feeling that she could just as easily disappear from the scene as be the next best thing.[/quote:1ab4aafda7]

Certainly very understandable. It seems though to me that Sasha has been singled out somehow by some folks, unfairly - when even till today, there is "buzz" about Naomi Nari Nam.

Sasha and NNN both blew into the senior scene with their 1st outing at US Nationals and won the silver medal each - this is something unusual. This is not just my opinion either - this is factual history.

Michelle, Sarah, Angela, etc, etc, etc all never had that kind of impact on their 1st year at senior US Nationals. The "buzz" that followed is pretty natural - but it usually takes time to tell the tales of what potentials will be realized and what won't.

[Mayra]

[quote:72dbc2f56e="AxelAnnie22"]

As far as media hype, - that would not be Sasha. Michelle and Sarah fit this bill. How many times have we watched Michelle sit on the beach and talk about UCLA - same clip - I could recite it! How many times have we listened to the ABC commentators talk in glowing terms about the two skaters who have ABC contracts: Michelle and Sarah? That is hype: promotional publicity of an extravagant kind!

[/color][/quote:72dbc2f56e]

I think there is a difference between publicity and hype. One is name recognition based on achievements and the other is based on contrived and sometimes unwarranted events. I don't think you can call the media attention that a 4 time World Champion and an Olympic Champion reveive, hype. The year the UCLA clip ran over and over, Michelle Kwan won Skate America and Nationals and then went on to become World Champion, and the media attention given to Sarah this past season was just as warranted as she was getting results and became Olympic Champion. Thats not hype that earned recognition IMO.

[rack]

So I'm fast forwarding over a tape that has the 1994 World Men's long program on it and I fast forward a little too far and end up seeing a happy Elvis discussing quad jumps. This is immediately followed by a teaser for the next day's showing of Ladies' Long.

Three skaters are featured in the teaser- Michelle, Josee, and Surya. They start and end with Michelle.

I check my record books, and Surya won the silver that year. I have no idea where Josee was following the short program, but Michelle ended up eighth, so it's unlikely she was in the top three going into the long program.

I cannot guarantee that the network (I think NBC) knew the results already. But I suspect they selected Michelle for the teaser not because they thought she was going to win, but because she was American, she was a skater of enormous promise, and ultimately because they thought showing her would bring in higher ratings than showing Yuka Sato.

Was Michelle Kwan hyped in 1994? I think so. Did she live up to the hype? You'd better believe it, although it took another year or two.

And if Sasha, or Sarah, or Angela and her perfect layback have also been hyped, they've lived up to the hype as well. They have all achieved enormous success, with the possibility of still greater triumphs to come.

[CMc]

[quote:f518593fb9="AxelAnnie22"][quote:f518593fb9="rack"]Sarah signed a contract with General Electric, which is the parent company of NBC.

I haven't read anything about Sarah signing any contracts with ABC. I know she's scheduled to do a couple of skating specials, but I assumed they'd be on NBC.

Am I wrong about this?[/quote:f518593fb9]

[color=darkblue:f518593fb9]You are probably correct. After five teen agers, my brain is pretty iffy! LOL! I had thought that two or so years ago, Sarah had some kind of deal going with ABC. I remember thinking at the time that that went a long way to explain Peggy's excitement over Sarah. Not that I didn't think Sarah's skating was enjoyable - did. I just thought Peggy was a little over the top about it. [/color:f518593fb9][/quote:f518593fb9]
Annie, call me "Mr. Over-the-top" then, because I've been just as vocal about Sarah before this season, and I never even worked for ABC! ;) I believe Peggy was genuinely taken aback by Sarah, and you saw how emotional she was when Sarah won the gold medal, so please don't assume ABC was paying Peggy Fleming to hype Sarah. What reason could they possibly have to do that anyway?
And yes, GE does own NBC.

[Mayra]

[quote:4897beeed9="rack"]

I cannot guarantee that the network (I think NBC) knew the results already. But I suspect they selected Michelle for the teaser not because they thought she was going to win, but because she was American, she was a skater of enormous promise, and ultimately because they thought showing her would bring in higher ratings than showing Yuka Sato.

Was Michelle Kwan hyped in 1994? I think so. Did she live up to the hype? You'd better believe it, although it took another year or two.

[/quote:4897beeed9]

If I remember correctly, Michelle Kwan had won the Jr. World Championships that season and was the girl who missed out on the Olympics while Tonya Harding went. The fact that she was American IMO had a lot to do with the amount of hype she was getting but the fact that she was 13, at her first worlds and her placement would have a BIG impact on how many entries the United States would have at next years World Championships also played a part. I can't remember what happened to Nicole Bobek, but thats a lot of pressure at 13 and IMO she lived up to the hype by placing top ten in her first Worlds.

[AxelAnnie22]

[color=darkblue:8a073c465b]Hi Mayra

The UCLA clip ran for three years running. I didn't mind it the first few times I saw it, but after that.....

My comment with regards to Sarah had to do with her first two years on the Sr. Ladies scene (I should have been more specific). Sarah obviously showed a lot of promise (at least to Peggy), but certainly did not have much in the way of medals, artistry, conntecting moves, or excellent technique to back it up. No doubt about it, Sarah has improved gads since then.

I think perhaps [/color:8a073c465b][color=violet:8a073c465b]HYPE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER! - Or the one who thinks the praise is not warranted [/color:8a073c465b] :wink:

[memememe76]

Re: the "fair" comment, I take that while Maria didn't think Michelle had have the best free skate (Sarah's was the best), Michelle was better than Irina (apparently, anyone's better than Irina), so Michelle, on the basis of placement, should've won gold. Thus, it's "fair." And Maria doesn't have to concern herself with whether Irina should've beaten Michelle in the SP, since I'm sure she thought Michelle was better.

As for home court advantage, when was the last time the host country won figure skating gold? Before Sarah, of course...

[loveskating]

I think the difference here is that some of us view the medals as "results" while others of us view the performance itself as "results" (considering that many medals come from less than stellar skates or are even due to the mistakes of far better skaters).

For instance, IMHO Alexander Abt had one of the best skates of last season...and lost to Yags anyway.

Personally, I will NEVER forget Naomi Nari Nam's performance at 1999 U.S. Nationals in the LP...I STILL watch it from time to time (and no, I don't think she won the competition, no lutz or lutz combo for one thing, but I enjoyed her more than anyone else that night, that is for sure). The fact she has been unable to go forward does not take anything from her, IMHO.

IMHO, the best that can be said of longevity for its own sake is that the law of averages would suggest that if one is good, one will have MORE spectacular performances with longevity.

I suppose both POVs are valid in their own way, but sometimes, it feels like constructs are being set up as if they were "objectively" true, and with a closer, more careful look, they might not be so objective.

[olivia]

[quote:66a0e4e1c9="AxelAnnie22"][color=darkblue:66a0e4e1c9]

The UCLA clip ran for three years running. I didn't mind it the first few times I saw it, but after that.....
[/color:66a0e4e1c9][/quote:66a0e4e1c9]

Maybe it seemed that way because it *was* overplayed, IMO, but IIRC, Michelle didn't go to college until Fall 1999 ... and the UCLA beach thingy clip didn't run at all last season, so ... But, whatever. US networks will always overplay the favorites in any sport. Watched golf lately? :frus:

As for Maria's interview, she has never been one NOT to speak her mind. I'm not at all surprised she's opinionated in this particular interview, especially since she's done with her competing days and has secured a position commentating. What I'm even more interested in is how she'll commentate Skate America 2002! I think I'd rather hear that than Dick, Peggy, et al. Hope she's as forthright in her commentary there as she was in her interview.

O-

[duane]

[quote:3d07c2371a="olivia"]...especially since she's done with her competing days and has secured a position commentating. Hope she's as forthright in her commentary there as she was in her interview.[/quote:3d07c2371a]

i didnt know that! i look forward to hearing her commentary, as i'm sure she wont hold back! :D