Outsports article - gay pioneers on ice

[dcden]

Gay Pioneers on Ice
by Patricia Nell Warren
http://www.outsports.com/history/skatingpioneers.htm

[dooobedooo]

:?? ...yawn ...

[dooobedooo]

Following a brief online chat with dcden, perhaps I had better elaborate on my "yawn" comment ....

I have absolutely no problems with gay sexuality, although I am not gay myself. However, I do have a problem with some of the content of the article, and the interpretation and politicisation it places on personalities and events. The author also makes the fundamental error of relating personal sexual orientation to caricatured and dated gender differentials.

Of course, figure skating is chockful of formalised gender stereotyping, without adherence to which success is impossible, but this has little to do with personal sexual orientation. Also, the incident with the gay youngster was more to do with personal conduct, moral code, and athletic focus, than with simply "being gay".

My "yawn" comment was more to do with these and similar spurious connections drawn by the author, than to the subject matter.

Stephen, where are you, when we need you, for a comment ....?

[La Rhumba]

I couldn't get through the whole article, as it was far too long and inaccurate. You'd think a professional journalist would check her facts before publishing.

Quote: "Even in Great Britain, where Oscar Wilde was once thrown in prison for “buggery,” the establishment had no problem knighting openly gay John Curry, and choosing him to carry the British flag at the Olympic Games."

The phrase "even in Great Britain" implies this is a backward, morally repressed country. Infact, people in the public eye, be they actors, singers, politicians, are more matter of fact about being Gay than you are in America. Being openly Gay in the UK doesn't harm your career. This also applies to "the Establishment". Oscar Wilde got into a personal, but very public, dispute with the Father of his male lover, whilst he also had a wife and children. THIS is what caused outrage over a cenury ago.

Quote: "Curry put his neck on the line and came out at a London press event."

Actually John Curry was a very private, sensitive individual, who was stitched up by a journalist after making an "off the record" comment. The way his having to publicly come out was dealt with thereafter, which distressed Curry greatly, meant that other Gay skaters who followed him chose to keep their private lives private, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

Quote: "He was even named England's sporting personality of the year, and the British government knighted him. 1976 was the Year of John Curry."

John Curry was NOT knighted! Where on earth did this inaccuracy come from? :roll: Was he called Sir John Curry? No! Because he was not knighted! Every year the BBC holds a Sports Personality of the Year Award which VIEWERS vote for and John won in 1976, as his great achievements that year were recognized, as did Robin Cousins in 1980 and Torvill and Dean in 1984 - also Olympic winners and SPOTY recipients. The QUEEN confers honours on various people who have served the country in different ways, and John Curry may have received the OBE, MBE or CBE as T&D did [I'd have to look it up].

Essentially, John was a uniquely beautiful skater, and a troubled individual in his private life. Whilst I'm delighted that his Skating Legacy is written about and recognized by the wider world, a bit of fact checking wouldn't go amiss before going to print.

:roll:

[icenut84]

Great post, Huriye. I was going to say all that too. I haven't read the article (I don't think I'll bother if it's that full of inaccuracies). And John Curry was actually *British* sports personality of the year, not just English.

[La Rhumba]

Thanks Rachel. :) It's funny how it's "England's John Curry" but "the British Government", who seem to have strange powers over us all.

BTW I did email a copy of my post to the author, but surprise surprise, I've had no reply. :o

[icenut84]

Originally posted by La Rhumba
BTW I did email a copy of my post to the author, but surprise surprise, I've had no reply. :o

WTG :D I'm not surprised you had no reply though, with comments like "a bit of fact-checking wouldn't go amiss" ;) (It's good if she's told how many inaccuracies there were though, so she can do more research next time...)

[La Rhumba]

Well, it probably wasn't too diplomatic, but I think errors as big as saying "John Curry was knighted by the British Govt." do need correcting, as it proves very little research went on at all, and we're all used to correcting eachother on internet skating sites.

I don't know why there are always errors in skating articles, either published in print or on the net? Even very well known skating journalists make glaring errors, and when you read them, you think..... 8O :?: :?: How is this possible?

But even if you point it out politely, and give them the correct facts, they still don't bother to reply. Whereas on the net, we always say, "thanks for the correction", "thanks for your reply", etc etc. Or maybe that's just us Brits? ;)

:P

[Italiano]

Didn't Scott Hamilton make homophobic remarks in a book he wrote? Scott's book was called "Landing It" in which he outs skaters Brian Pockar and Rob McCall after their deaths. Not too cool.

[Mel On Ice]

I though Pockar and McCall we outed at the time of their deaths. Hamilton's book was released well after that, so character assasination in this case is unfounded.

I also cannot find fault with either Hamilton or Weiss (in Brennan's book) admitting to their homophobia, and in trying to deal with it. Face it, in middle America, homophobia is still status quo. It's not right, but people have to learn to become more accepting of others, it's not part of the way of life.

[WeBeEducated]

Talk about bias! Weiss and Hamilton admitted to their "homophobia"???? No, they were just tired of hearing that folks think that all men in figure skating are gay. They are straight and want that to be known as much as Rudi Galindo wants everyone to know he is gay. Is Rudi suffering from heterophobia? Because he sure goes out of his way to assert his homosexuality. Why is it in skating circles that is considered ok, but if Michael W. shows up with his wife and kids on camera he is "flaunting" his homophobia??????
Only in the warped world of skating is a man looking like a man, dressing like a man, skating like a man, and behaving like a man frowned upon and ridiculed.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Only in the warped world of skating is a man looking like a man, dressing like a man, skating like a man, and behaving like a man frowned upon and ridiculed.

Just exactly what are you saying? It seems to me that ALL of the men who skate look like men, dress like men, skate like men, and behave like men.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Mel On Ice
I though Pockar and McCall we outed at the time of their deaths. Hamilton's book was released well after that, so character assasination in this case is unfounded.

Character assasination?

[Italiano]

I can only go by the rainbow site for gay skaters I was reading last night. It's pretty interesting and they seem to document everything with hard facts. Yes Scott outed the two skaters at the time of their death. Either in his book or before it was published, in public. He even apologized for it later and for his homophobic remarks which were many at the time. I also don't think it's right to say Micheal W. is flaunting being straight by having his wife and kids with him. That is wrong too.

[Little Bit]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Talk about bias! Weiss and Hamilton admitted to their "homophobia"???? No, they were just tired of hearing that folks think that all men in figure skating are gay. They are straight and want that to be known as much as Rudi Galindo wants everyone to know he is gay. Is Rudi suffering from heterophobia? Because he sure goes out of his way to assert his homosexuality. Why is it in skating circles that is considered ok, but if Michael W. shows up with his wife and kids on camera he is "flaunting" his homophobia??????
Only in the warped world of skating is a man looking like a man, dressing like a man, skating like a man, and behaving like a man frowned upon and ridiculed.

Finally something we agree on!;)

[Doug]

I'm getting uncomfortable with the tone of where this thread may be going.

Let's remember that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal in most of our countires, and that supercedes the right to free speach. So I suggest to those that openly flaunt their right or the reasonableness of their homophobia, that you may want to be more prudent.

Keep in mind that if in this forum, discussion on the relative reasonableness of intolerance towards people of other minorities were to arise, the moderators would have a serious situation.

Now I'm not saying any of this has really manifested itself yet, but I'm getting worried. This forum should be about skating. If sexual orientation is relevant to the sport (and it is), it should be respectfully discussed in that context. If you want to discuss the politics of hetero or homosexuality in and of itself, there are far more interesting places on the web to do so.


Doug

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Doug
This forum should be about skating. If sexual orientation is relevant to the sport (and it is), it should be respectfully discussed in that context.

Just a question - why do you think sexual orientation is "relevant to the sport"? I don't understand that. To me, sexual orientation is a part of a skater's private life - it's something personal, nothing to do with their athletic careers.

[Italiano]

Thank You Doug, I was thinking the same thing.

[Louis]

Originally posted by Doug

Let's remember that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal in most of our countires

This is going off topic, but I don't believe that the above is true. In the United States, homosexuals are not a protected class. While individual municipalities and individual organizations may establish equal rights policies with respect to sexual orientation, they are not required to by federal law.

I don't think Hamilton or Weiss are homophobic; in reality, they are probably very gay-friendly by society's standards. I don't have a problem with any of the statements I've heard/seen from them.

OTOH, some of the gender stereotypes on this thread are, IMHO, completely representative of the small-mindedness of Middle America.

[icyboid]

Originally posted by icenut84
Just a question - why do you think sexual orientation is "relevant to the sport"? I don't understand that. To me, sexual orientation is a part of a skater's private life - it's something personal, nothing to do with their athletic careers.

ITA. I wish we lived in an ideal world where the skating spoke for itself. Unfortunately there's such a prevalent social stigma that this sport is gay that it's almost inseparable.

[Doug]

Sexual orientation IS relevant to figure skating as it combines the arts (music, dance, choreography,) where the presence of gays is typically overrepresented and well integrated, with sports, where the presence of gays is typically unnderrepresented and poorly integrated.

The result is gays involved in figure skating fall into a situation that is difficult to navigate - they tend to be overrepresented in the sport, yet experience forms of discrimination and intimidation.

This dilemma has been described over and over again by those brave enough to come out in the sport.

Perhaps the issue is more homophobia than one of sexual orientation, as I would agree that one's sexual orientation in and of itself is not likely relevant to a mature discussion of the sport. The presence and impact of homophobia, however, is hard to divorce from the sport.

[Italiano]

A wonderful website to browse through is Rainbow Ice. It is just full of statistics, stories, things I never knew before. While I am a grandmother and not really part of the gay community, I enjoyed this site so much. If you are a skating fan, you will like this. This is an informative site and goes into detail about Scott in the elite skaters section- Ronnie Robinson part. Very interesting. This is not primarily a "gay Games" site. Check it out.

[icyboid]

Originally posted by Doug
Sexual orientation IS relevant to figure skating as it combines the arts (music, dance, choreography,) where the presence of gays is typically overrepresented and well integrated, with sports, where the presence of gays is typically unnderrepresented and poorly integrated.

The result is gays involved in figure skating fall into a situation that is difficult to navigate - they tend to be overrepresented in the sport, yet experience forms of discrimination and intimidation.

This dilemma has been described over and over again by those brave enough to come out in the sport.

Perhaps the issue is more homophobia than one of sexual orientation, as I would agree that one's sexual orientation in and of itself is not likely relevant to a mature discussion of the sport. The presence and impact of homophobia, however, is hard to divorce from the sport.

Gay skaters aren't the only ones that face discrimination and intimidation. Heterosexual skaters often face harassment stemming from misdirected homophobia in spite of not being gay.

[WeBeEducated]

This thread started with name calling and labeling of 2 very popular skaters as "homophobic".
Being pro-gay isnt a license to point the finger with cries of "Bigot!" toward those who dont share your feelings on the issue, yet expect everyone to go out of their way to protect your feelings and self esteem!
Both sides are judgemental, and both have the right to voice their opinions.

[flippet]

Actually, this thread started out with the posting of a link to an article. (Not to mention that the skaters weren't labeled homophobic--a question was asked as to whether they had made homophobic remarks. Related, perhaps, but not one and the same.) You might want to get your facts straight (no pun intended).

[MizEdiesBoy]

Originally posted by Italiano
Didn't Scott Hamilton make homophobic remarks in a book he wrote? Scott's book was called "Landing It" in which he outs skaters Brian Pockar and Rob McCall after their deaths. Not too cool.

McCall and Pockar were outed in PEOPLE Magazine at least 3-4 years before Scott's book. I remember the article -- it was about the effect the AIDS virus was having on the skating community and the attempts made to fix this.

In Scott's defense, he never struck me as a man who hated gays; rather he disliked the effeminate costumes and postures that were (are?) expected of male skaters.

I mean, Brian Orser is gay, and I never would have suspected because to me, his skating style is so masculine (but graceful). He and Scotty went way back, and I am sure he knew about Brian and it didn't matter to him. To me, both men went a long way into presenting a strong, masculine presence on the ice. OTOH, Urmanov and Plushenko are straight men, but their costumes could easily be worn by transvestites. And it takes away from what they are trying to do out there...

[MizEdiesBoy]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Talk about bias! Weiss and Hamilton admitted to their "homophobia"???? No, they were just tired of hearing that folks think that all men in figure skating are gay. They are straight and want that to be known as much as Rudi Galindo wants everyone to know he is gay. Is Rudi suffering from heterophobia? Because he sure goes out of his way to assert his homosexuality. Why is it in skating circles that is considered ok, but if Michael W. shows up with his wife and kids on camera he is "flaunting" his homophobia??????
Only in the warped world of skating is a man looking like a man, dressing like a man, skating like a man, and behaving like a man frowned upon and ridiculed.

Sorry, but in "Inside Edge", Weiss was quoted as making homophobic remarks.

[Roma]

Originally posted by MizEdiesBoy
Sorry, but in "Inside Edge", Weiss was quoted as making homophobic remarks.

I would not rely on ANY work by Christine Brennan to support an opinion in an argument. She is a horribly biased and inaccurate writer. "Inside Edge" is full of factual errors and terribly flawed logic, written with the maturity of a junior high school newspaper reporter.

[MizEdiesBoy]

Originally posted by MizEdiesBoy
Sorry, but in "Inside Edge", Weiss was quoted as making homophobic remarks.

[MizEdiesBoy]

Originally posted by Roma
I would not rely on ANY work by Christine Brennan to support an opinion in an argument. She is a horribly biased and inaccurate writer. "Inside Edge" is full of factual errors and terribly flawed logic, written with the maturity of a junior high school newspaper reporter.

I believe her -- I have been a fan of her column in USA Today and have watched her on several TV interviews -- to me, she comes across as quite knowledgeable. And certainly better than the Johnnie-come-latelys who jumped on the bandwagon after the Nancy/Tonya mess. And her writing is hardly what I'd call "junior high school level".

I am sure that Weiss, who loves to complain, would have come out and said something in protest if she'd been wrong.

[skatepixie]

Its Alois Lutz....not Thomas....

I dont think that calling someone "unladylike" is the same as calling them a lesbian...

Sonia was 15, not 13 when she won in '28...

I dont see a problem that girls in this sport are expected to dress/look like girls. In fact, I think its a good thing. Why cant we be feminine and athletic at the same time?

i dont see a problem with Scott mentioning that those skaters were gay if they had already been outed...

RR did quads? I dont think so, people...the skates back then would make it impossible...and even if you *could* do it, the toll on your body from the lack of support wouldnt be worth it at all...