IFS "the List " [Archive] - skatingforums.com

Mazurka Girl

07-16-2002, 04:01 PM

I don't know where it is on line but I read it when I was at the bookstore & I can tell you one person who's on it whose work I really like. [b:1580248c93]Nathan Birch[/b:1580248c93] the choreographer. :!:

Others on the list I remember are Phyllis Howard, Kristi Yamaguchi, Dorothy Hamill, Sara Kawahara. I'm pretty sure Ron Pfenning was on it. That's all I can think of right now. Someone can probably fill you in on the others.

WylieFan

07-16-2002, 05:55 PM

Here is the "the list" from IFS. :D

Billings, Jef
Birch, Nathan
Button, Dick
Cinquanta. Ottavio :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Collins, Tom
Denkova, Albena
Dijkhuizen, Eric-Paul
Disson, Steve
Feld, Kenneth
Goebel, Timothy
Hamill, Dorothy
Hamilton, Scott
Howard, Phyllis
Hughes, Sarah
Kawahara, Sarah
Kwan, Michelle
Le Gougne, Marie-Reine
Miller, Lea Ann
Pfenning, Ronald
Plage, Lynn
Sale, Jamie & Pelletier, David
Shulman, Carole
Witt, Katarina
Yagudin, Alexei
Yamaguchi, Kristi

icenut84

07-16-2002, 06:15 PM

Is this list the "most influential" thing? Did they give a reason for each one?

adrianchew

07-16-2002, 07:17 PM

The could name Kawahara and Miller, but left out Nichols!!!

Sarah Hughes - as "most influential"?! She might be Olympic champion, but she's far too new to be categorized "influential" in the sport. And Tim Goebel? Same problem there. Todd Eldredge should be name instead.

The list of problems with the list goes on and on...

trixie

07-16-2002, 08:02 PM

Gotta agree with you , Adrian. Firstly, 25 is too many. The connotation of influential is not appropriate to each of these names. I too was hoping to find an in-depth discussion( defense) for each of these names, somewhere on line. I tried the IFS site but did not see it.

Your example of Sarah is well taken. Yes, she won the gold medal, and God Bless her heart, I love her to pieces, but she needs a few more scuffs on her skatebag to be considered in the same manner as , say, Ms. Hamill. I do think, that said, that she will be, in years to come the most loved champion since Dorothy.

The term " influential" does not accurately describe what they have generated. This list could be, perhaps, most in the news, most talked about on-line, most media attention...but then again, not all fit into a single category.

They need to pare it down to 10 and rename it or rethink the inclusion criteria.

Is the idea that individuals will want to be included year after year, and collect their inclusions like trophies ? How many people, be they athletes, coaches, broadcasters, choreographers, officials and/or others, can be influential repeatedly to warrant inclusion ? How many years do we want to see the same names on the list...any list ?

Did anyone go to the "unveiling" in NYC in June ? Love to hear about it.

Katt Witt ? C'mon, Mr. Lund.[/i]

adrianchew

07-16-2002, 08:16 PM

trixie - I didn't go, but from reports I've read, people felt sorta "robbed". I believe the excuse was one or two crazed fans forced tighter security. :roll:

kwanette

07-16-2002, 08:21 PM

Most influential is subject to debate, for sure...Most newsworthy, perhaps. I will never understand how Lori Nichol didn't make the list. And Robin Wagner should have made it, also.

CMc

07-16-2002, 08:51 PM

The "list" isn't nearly as much a rip-off as the screening of the friggin' movie was! In case nobody here read about it previously, I was at the screening in NY, and it was the biggest crock I've ever been invited to (OK, I requested and bought a ticket, but still, I was sent the invitation! ;))
The flim was a 5-minute trailer with pictures and bad music! I EXPECTED to see a retrospective of these people, but it was NOTHING like that! The only redeeming qualities of the night/day were that I saw Sarah, her brothers, mother and Nana, Oksana Bayiul and her hubby, Ina, Zimmerman and Sylvia Fontana, and Alexei Yagudin. Reportedly there would have been a Q&A for us the fans to partcipipate in, but some stupid crazy lady made security buckle down and we were all barred from such an acitivity. :cry:

BTW, it poured heavy rain all the way through, and I had to catch a cab in it coming out!

rack

07-17-2002, 06:54 AM

For those who believe that winning Olympic gold isn't sufficient to make you "influential," I beg to differ.

Every US lady Olympic Gold Medalist is in the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame, with the exception of Tara Lipinki, who is not yet eligible. For comparison, Annet Poetszch and Beatrix Schuba (non-US Olympic champions), and Linda Fratianne and Rosalyn Sumners (US Olympic silver/World champs) are not.

By winning Olympic gold, Sarah Hughes became the face of women's figure skating to millions and millions of people around the world. She is the one whose parade is televised, she is the one interviewed by papers throughout the country, she is the one at the ESPY awards, applauded for pointing out how difficult skating is.

And twelve years from now, the odds are that year's Olympic ladies figure skating champ will say, "My first memory of seeing skating was when Sarah Hughes won the Olympics and I said I want to do that someday."

Winning an Olympic gold makes you influential very young and very fast (and so far Sarah Hughes has used that position well).

Scott

07-17-2002, 07:20 AM

It seems to me that to be influential would mean to have a lasting impact. thsi come sabout only after years of work. I really finf it questionable that the likes of Sarah and Timmy would be included in such a list at this point in their carreers. If Timmy had been the first man ever to land a quad I might include him. I think that in a few more years I definately would put him on this list. Now is too soon. I also would not put Sale/P on the list either. They were part of a controversy and this was caused by some one else's actions.

trixie

07-17-2002, 08:15 AM

Rack,

You mean like Tara ?

Joking aside, the impact that Sarah has had in less than the six months she has won is vastly different from any Ms.Lipinski may have had. However, I stand by my previous comments.

In many ways winning the gold is just the start, and many Olympic Champions do not have the "influence " of others. Peggy Flemming has it, Annette Poetsch does not. Olympic gold does not equal influence. Kurt browning has great influence and no Olympic medal.

loveskating

07-17-2002, 08:22 AM

[quote:5c7ec3d74b="rack"]For those who believe that winning Olympic gold isn't sufficient to make you "influential," I beg to differ.

Every US lady Olympic Gold Medalist is in the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame, with the exception of Tara Lipinki, who is not yet eligible. For comparison, Annet Poetszch and Beatrix Schuba (non-US Olympic champions), and Linda Fratianne and Rosalyn Sumners (US Olympic silver/World champs) are not.
[/quote:5c7ec3d74b]

You post is noteworthy for its perhaps unintentioned candor....[b:5c7ec3d74b]every US Lady[/b:5c7ec3d74b]...of course, more recently, Oksana Baiul won gold...and for men, Urmanov, and it did not help them at all in the U.S. And despite the fact that Ilia Kulik is considered by his peers to be among the greatest skaters ever, it apparently did not help him a lot either.

On the face of it, this situation (not referring to you or your post) all seems just wrong, unfair, the situation evokes an image of the power of an elite clique imposing its preferences downward -- and not of merit...which is a thoroughly 'Un-American" construct. Additionally, given the multinational, global character of the world economic base, it adds insult to injury to insist on these nationalist constructs -- kind of like, "work for us, buy from us, but you cannot be part of OUR elite, even if you are elite by your accmplishments"; furthermore, considering the uniquely multinational cultural nature of the citizens of the United States, there it is also offensive or can be.

And the list is likewise, IMHO, and similar things are why I don't buy these magazines...

Mazurka Girl

07-17-2002, 09:54 AM

[quote:2586786aa8="loveskating"]On the face of it, this situation (not referring to you or your post) all seems just wrong, unfair, the situation evokes an image of the power of an elite clique imposing its preferences downward -- and not of merit...which is a thoroughly 'Un-American" construct. Additionally, given the multinational, global character of the world economic base, it adds insult to injury to insist on these nationalist constructs -- kind of like, "work for us, buy from us, but you cannot be part of OUR elite, even if you are elite by your accmplishments"; furthermore, considering the uniquely multinational cultural nature of the citizens of the United States, there it is also offensive or can be.[/quote:2586786aa8]
I'm no fan of either these lists or IFS, but this sounds like it is making the list out to be much more than what it actually is. I have no doubt that many people may not even be familiar with some of the individuals or their body of work or the philosophies they have brought to the skating community. I would much rather learn about their individual contributions in something other than a collective format myself, however I disagree that this group of individuals should be characterized in the way noted above.

Spinner

07-17-2002, 10:54 AM

Actually, I can sort of see how Tim made the list. I'd venture to guess it's due to the ease with which he performs his quads and the fact that he can land 2 different jumps successfully, thus forcing the hand of the other top-level men. Plushy, Yags, even Elvis all have currently far surpassed Tim in medals earned, yet who do they call the 'king of the quad'? ;)

Just an observation.
Spinner (who agrees with rack as to why Sarah made the list)

rack

07-17-2002, 03:20 PM

My candor is never unintentional (especially not first thing in the morning!).

I don't think it's a coincidence that it's the US Olympic champions who are in the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame, while some non-American champs are not.

The United States is the biggest single market for figure skating; it simply has more people with more money than other countries. Its skaters therefore have more influence.

I really don't care who IFS picks for its list, but I do want to point out that influential is a temporary thing. At one point Warren Harding was the most influential person in the United States, but that didn't last long.

The skaters who are on the covers of Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated, and TV Guide this year are the influential skaters of this year. Next year there probably won't be any skaters on the covers of those magazines, and the criteria for being influential will change accordingly.

Ellyn

07-17-2002, 03:56 PM

[quote:06031c2812="rack"]Every US lady Olympic Gold Medalist is in the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame, with the exception of Tara Lipinki, who is not yet eligible. For comparison, Annet Poetszch and Beatrix Schuba (non-US Olympic champions), and Linda Fratianne and Rosalyn Sumners (US Olympic silver/World champs) are not.[/quote:06031c2812]

Of course, one could argue that Schuba was influential in convincing the powers that be to amend the competition format so that an excellent figures skater who was a mediocre freestyler would not be unbeatable. ;-)

As for Poetzsch, are there any German posters here who could enlighten us on her influence in German skating? She certainly must have been an early influence on Katarina Witt when they were training together. I had heard that she became a skating judge -- how long did she judge for and at what levels? And she was undoubtedly a major influence on her daughter who became a pair skater.

One thing that's not clear from these lists is whether the listing is for who was most influential *this year* and who has been so influential over the course of a career that their name keeps coming up or their influence keeps being felt even if they didn't do anything particularly notable this year. Explanations would certainly help to clarify what the criteria are and thus give the list more credibility, and also make for more interesting reading than simply a list of names.

duane

07-17-2002, 04:25 PM

[quote:a54de618c9="rack"]For those who believe that winning Olympic gold isn't sufficient to make you "influential," I beg to differ.

By winning Olympic gold, Sarah Hughes became the face of women's figure skating to millions and millions of people around the world. She is the one whose parade is televised, she is the one interviewed by papers throughout the country, she is the one at the ESPY awards, applauded for pointing out how difficult skating is.

And twelve years from now, the odds are that year's Olympic ladies figure skating champ will say, "My first memory of seeing skating was when Sarah Hughes won the Olympics and I said I want to do that someday."

Winning an Olympic gold makes you influential very young and very fast (and so far Sarah Hughes has used that position well).[/quote:a54de618c9]

i agree with rack.

and what makes sarah's win even more "influential"--perhaps more so than past Olympic winners--is that not only did the United States host the 2002 Olympics, but this was the first post 9/11 Olympics. patriotism was extremely high, and this young American woman's amazing feat--moving from 4th place to 1st at [b:a54de618c9]THE[/b:a54de618c9] main attraction of the entire winter games--made her historic win even more influential and memorable.

loveskating

07-18-2002, 08:03 AM

While it is so for the casual skating fan in the U.S., I think it might be inacurate to insist that Sarah represents "the face of skating" the world over.

Am I mistaken, or was it not the view of the Russians that Irina Slutskaya should have won the ladies gold medal? I'm not sure, but I believe that much of the European press concurred...often based on stating that Irina actually won the SP?

Ergo, it follows that their view of Sarah would be quite different.

donnamarie

07-18-2002, 10:49 AM

I would be disappointed if Sarah hadn't been on the list this year. She was one of the most influentual skaters THIS YEAR in my opinion. Winning the olympic gold medal, coming from 4th to 1st, with an amazing performance that deeply affected even non-skating fans, she made a huge splash on the world and national consciousness in 2002. She followed up her astonishing feat with a series of appearances and speeches that showed her to be a great role model to young girls and young skaters everywhere. She showed immense poise and grace in victory. To have left her off the list this year would have been shocking.

Overall I do not agree with much of the list and find it always to be centered on the USA ... for instance, Tarasova should be on that list every year as she is amazingly talented and influentual. I also think that Irina should be on the list for finally winning Worlds and for her great comeback story the past few years. But I wholeheartedly agree with Sarah's place on it this year and I do think most people would agree with it.

As for Tim, what he accomplished was great for the USA but I think there are other skaters etc. who should have been on the list before him this year. There were many deserving people who were left off the list. Meanwhile, do we have to have Yamaguchi, Hamil, etc. every single year???????? It seems that they are influentual year after year simply because they are alive. Few people take this list seriously anymore. Perhaps the magazine shouldn't call itself INTERNATIONAL figure skating if it is going to focus mostly on US skaters.

Mazurka Girl

07-18-2002, 12:41 PM

[quote:1625b2299d="donnamarie"]There were many deserving people who were left off the list. Meanwhile, do we have to have Yamaguchi, Hamil, etc. every single year???????? It seems that they are influentual year after year simply because they are alive. Few people take this list seriously anymore. Perhaps the magazine shouldn't call itself INTERNATIONAL figure skating if it is going to focus mostly on US skaters.[/quote:1625b2299d]
- There are always going to be many deserving people who are left off the lists, not only in figure skating but any number of other subjects. That's why lists like these aren't really effective.
- I didn't realize people ever actually took IFS or any of their lists seriously in the first place. That's a new one to me. I think their magazine is pretty shallow myself & so do my skating friends.
- I haven't followed Kristi Y's activities in the past year, so I won't discuss her, but I can easily understand why Dorothy Hamill would be a repeat addition to any of these lists. Dorothy Hamill has a lot of staying power & has had the longest running marketing streak out of any current eligible or pro skaters, which last year included several new & well placed endorsements. How many other skaters were there when skater mass marketing & promotional opportunites began & are still very successful in this same area over 25 years later? She has maintained consistent performance standards & still does jumps (except double axel) & spins that she used to win the Olympics & her edge quality surpasses just about any eligible singles skaters, which is probably why she's still invited to so many pro-ams & other competitions. In addition, she has been instrumental in promoting & furthering the development of ensemble skating & increasing theatrical opportunities to present skating in a formal dance setting. She skated in the nationally acclaimed America's Dancing Series with the Next Ice Age at the Kennedy Center last fall.

Kristi has probably made such contributions to skating in the past year too so wouldn't it be more beneficial to have an awareness of their past year's activities before saying they've been recognized only because they're breathing?

[i:1625b2299d]Updated to correct my typos[/i:1625b2299d] :oops:

trixie

07-18-2002, 12:53 PM

Mazurka Girl ,

Excellent post. You explained most clearly , with facts why Dorothy Hamill is figure skating. I see so much of the same potential in Sarah.

CMc

07-18-2002, 05:05 PM

Regardless of "the List" and who did or didn't get on it, Mark Lund should be ashamed of himself for that ridiculous screening and at least offer us a second chance at having that Q&A session! I wouldn't even touch his book, now!

But even so, [b:4f9d31726d]rack[/b:4f9d31726d] makes such a wonderful point that Sarah Hughes [b:4f9d31726d]IS[/b:4f9d31726d] the one people are taking notice of right now, the one whose parade is being televised, the one dropping the puck for the Rangers or throwing the ball for the Yankees, the one representing skating at the ESPYs, and the one some young kid 12 years from now is going to point out was his/her reason for becoming a skater. For that last one alone, I'd say that's a great reason to name somebody influential.

donnamarie

07-18-2002, 05:48 PM

Perhaps I put it too strongly to say some of these skaters only have to be "alive" to be on the list, but I still stand by my point ... the list focuses mostly on U.S. skaters and U.S. officials ... and certain people can be guaranteed to be on the list year after year, for instance Kristi and Dorothy seem to be on every year, or that is my impression anyway.

The list is supposed to be the people who were most influentual in skating during the past season. Dorothy's edges and staying power are admirable but shouldn't qualify her year after year ... and a "marketing streak" is not my idea of influentual, but maybe to other people this is the criteria they use. If she did something influentual last season, such as "increasing theatrical opportunities" etc., then perhaps she was indeed influentual this year. In that case, thank you for the enlightenment. However, no doubt there were other skaters worldwide who had similar accomplishments who have been overlooked.

If the list is not something that oneself or ones skating friends take seriously, then why bother to defend it or debate it? I think a list that really considered the most influential people in a given season would be very interesting, could even be fascinating, so it's a disappointment to me that IFS wastes this opportunity by the choices they've made the past few years ... strictly my opinion, but to say in one breath that the list is meaningless and not to be taken seriously, and then in the next breath to spend considerable time and effort in defending the choices on the list, seems contradictory. Either the list is worth debating or it's not ...

hydro

07-18-2002, 06:39 PM

i'm suprised not to see Sandra Bezic's name on this list. not that i'd want to see her on the list, but her commentary alone changed the outlook of skating. her commentary at the Olympics sparked this whole controversy of S&P and B&S, and the judges, and i think credit should be given where its due, whether negative or positive. her swing on the decision helped push NBC ratings, and helped skating's prominence (though not necessarily in a positive way).

Mazurka Girl

07-19-2002, 09:02 AM

[quote:5e62678913="donnamarie"]If the list is not something that oneself or ones skating friends take seriously, then why bother to defend it or debate it? ... strictly my opinion, but to say in one breath that the list is meaningless and not to be taken seriously, and then in the next breath to spend considerable time and effort in defending the choices on the list, seems contradictory. Either the list is worth debating or it's not ...[/quote:5e62678913]
Please don't misunderstand my point. I was not defending the IFS list, or lists in general, as I thought I clearly stated in the beginning of my post. My comments regarding Dorothy were in response to the statement: "Meanwhile, do we have to have Yamaguchi, Hamil, etc. every single year???????? It seems that they are influentual year after year simply because they are alive."

It seems to me it's more productive to know what the skaters have actually been doing [b:5e62678913]before[/b:5e62678913] making blanket assertions during a discussion. So I offered examples of why I disagreed, list or otherwise, in response to an unsupported negative opinion, list or otherwise.

You & I may not feel the marketing issue is especially important, but many people in the industry do in fact consider it very significant. Skaters, fans, officials, business & industry, & the media all have different points of view about skating & each group has their own priorities about what's important & relevant. No matter which group applies to anyone of us personally, it can't hurt to try & be at least a little objective about the considerations of the other groups involved & gain some additional perspective through them. I think that's an attempt at understanding, not a contradiction.