Is it right to encourage your child to be an ice dancer or pair skater?

[Cupcake]

I think this part of the sport gets very little respect from the USFSA as well as media.No wonder people complain that we have such a small talent base in the USA. Would you want to go in and train your brains out everyday and break your family finances and then be treated like a second class citizen? The ice dancers get even less respect than the pair skaters.Would you encourage your child?

[WeBeEducated]

No, I wouldnt encourage any form of competitive skating, including pairs and ice dance, if I had to do it all over again.
Why?
Because the expense involved is just too great for the rewards that are reaped.
There are rewards of course, but not enough of them to counterbalance the toll skating expenses take on the family income.
The other reason is that skaters who want to compete at high levels put in nearly all of their freetime hours toward skating, and because of that they miss out on opportunites such as drama, and music and school sports/activites.
That kind of dedication and commitment should offer significant opportunites and in other sports it would! I have seen my childrens friends receive scholarship offers worth thousands of dollars to play volleyball, water polo, softball, etc, and none of those sports required even half the money or time commitment as skating.
As commited athletes they receive zero offers for nonexistent skating scholarships, very littel recognition among their peers(and for the males they actually often receive ridicule).
The rewards of learning to manage their time, etc, can be learned with any sport , so I dont see that competitive skating offers anything that other sports dont offer.
If I had known about the inconsistent judging standards, the politics, the influence of money/certain clubs/ certain coaches on results I would have reconsidered too.
My daughter recently received an invitation to try out with a junior dance partner.
the coaches informed her that weekly lessons would cost $400.
$400!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she also would be paying for ice time for herself AND her partner!
Costume costs were estimated at $5000 per Season!
Would I recommend that to anyone?
NO
It is insane.

[mary]

If I had to do it all over again (as a parent), I would have encouraged school sports. :roll:

[triple twist]

If a child shows talent and great potential, I would definately encourage them! Why in the world not!! And even if you knew they were never going to win a world championship, if they had a dream, I would work with them and encourage them until they reached it.

[dance__skater]

I totally agree with tripletwist!! I'm not a parent but I am a young Ice Dancer... I love to skate so much and my whole family encourages me! If I had children and they wanted to be in ice dancing or pairs skating I would definitly get them envolved and help them achieve their goals just like my preants do for me. I know the prices are very expensive but if it's something your children really want just like me then I would definitly encourage them and help them achieve their goals! I know I can't speak for every parent but I sure now thats how my parents feel or they wouldn't be doing this for me and I apreciate it very much!! They always encourage me and have and will keep encouraging me until I achieve my skating goals!!

[floor]

i agree as a parent of a skater i would let him do it again hes been doing pairs since 95 we are still behing him 100 percent

[Gaela]

This is interesting to me although I'm not a skater nor a parent of a skater.

I've often wonder what kind of cost skating represents to parents, say someone training to compete at regional and national levels.

I figure it must cost something like $10 grand a year?

We hear so much about how families like the Kwan suffered, and I think--geez, having to suffering to free up $10 grand a year is something that wouldn't constitute struggling for the poor.

However, even for a middle class family that is a whole lot of money.

Does a poor talented kid even have a chance?

And given that the Olympic champions of the world are few and far between, is there any way a parent can tell if there child is so talented they need to do everything they can to encourage it?

[Aurora]

From what I've seen - in pairs/dance the skater depends so much on the other that spending $12,000-15,000 per year and having to rely on another party to devote as much money, time, devotion, dedication and respect as the other is a huge gamble.

It doesn't work out for many - as you can see by the great number of changes you see every year in partnerships.

[Aurora]

To Gaela;

Some skaters have "assessments" done by their governing bodies - ie; Skate Canada has a type of develomental Athlete specialists. Parents have taken their kids to the specialists, have them assessed and ask for an honest opinion. I've known some who have been told to go the non-competitive route and just get their badges, tests and others who have been told to keep on the competitive route - "no matter what it takes!"

The few I've met who were told to take the non-comp route and refused to believe the assessment, continued on, money no object - and left the sport - broke in spirit and in the bank. Very sad.

The others have continued to be quite successful in many ways. So, I guess it depends on whether or not you believe the assessment, but it is available.

I wouldn't ask the coach, because they always tell you to continue - after all the song goes "money makes the world go round!"

[Pupiczech]

Originally posted by Gaela


I figure it must cost something like $10 grand a year?



Most of you know that I am friends with the Hartsells. At the height of their skating career, (98'-99'-2000') the cost for the family was $70,000 a year! Two kids skating in one family!

[Phuket]

Originally posted by Pupiczech
Most of you know that I am friends with the Hartsells. At the height of their skating career, (98'-99'-2000') the cost for the family was $70,000 a year! Two kids skating in one family!

Thanks Pupiczech for your reply. My experience was $30,000 to $40,000 per year for one skater. Who knows what the cost ends up being if one parent moves with the skater. Add the potential cost of private school or home schooling, and it's even more.

I'm not sure it's easy to pinpoint the exact cost of training an elite skater. But it is certainly much more than $10,000 per year.

Was it worth it? If we could go back would we do it again? Absolutely. Skating gave my child many opportunities both inside and outside the sport....and it continues to do so even though the competitve days are long over. It was something the whole family was involved in and I credit that involvement for the continued close relationship my husband and I have with our children.

[WeBeEducated]

Any sustained interest that a parent shares with the children is likely to result in a close bond.
That is not something only available to skaters and their parents though, it is available within all sports and hobbies.
What I am trying to say directly about skating is even more true of icedance and pairs-- that partnerships are a huge risk, and a greater expense for something statistically unlikely to result in significant achievement for most teams. The USFSA doesnt offer any incentives or make it any easier for teams to fund their efforts.
Skating is intense, often unfair and results are based on highly subjective volunteer opinions.
It requires families to live on the edge financially if they are not wealthy, and it forces out many, if not most poor kids.
The only way a poor kid can skate is if the coach doesnt charge him for lessons, and he gets a break somehow with ice fees.
In the end, what do you have?
A skill, yes.
But at what cost to the family and to the skater?
It is a very very expensive sport with few opportunites for good skaters and a high risk of unfulfilled expectations. Add the extra cost and problems faced by partnerships and the ice becomes even more slippery.
It is a luxury sport and for the wealthy it might be easy to say"oh, it was fun and it doesnt matter if great results were achieved" etc., but for the average family I would not recommend competitive ice dancing or pairs.
I would suggest another activity that offers friendships, challenges, fair and consistent standards, and college scholarship opportunities.
What does skating offer that other sports dont??

[KJD]

Webeeducated,
As a parent of a fairly young competitive skater, I have a question for you. I think all of your statements are perfectly valid (through experience). Do you think that some of the issues you mention are stronger for pairs/dance or is it true for the singles disciplinces as well?

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
No, I wouldnt encourage any form of competitive skating, including pairs and ice dance, if I had to do it all over again.
Why?
Because the expense involved is just too great for the rewards that are reaped.
There are rewards of course, but not enough of them to counterbalance the toll skating expenses take on the family income.
The other reason is that skaters who want to compete at high levels put in nearly all of their freetime hours toward skating, and because of that they miss out on opportunites such as drama, and music and school sports/activites.
That kind of dedication and commitment should offer significant opportunites and in other sports it would! I have seen my childrens friends receive scholarship offers worth thousands of dollars to play volleyball, water polo, softball, etc, and none of those sports required even half the money or time commitment as skating.
As commited athletes they receive zero offers for nonexistent skating scholarships, very littel recognition among their peers(and for the males they actually often receive ridicule).
The rewards of learning to manage their time, etc, can be learned with any sport , so I dont see that competitive skating offers anything that other sports dont offer.
If I had known about the inconsistent judging standards, the politics, the influence of money/certain clubs/ certain coaches on results I would have reconsidered too.
My daughter recently received an invitation to try out with a junior dance partner.
the coaches informed her that weekly lessons would cost $400.
$400!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she also would be paying for ice time for herself AND her partner!
Costume costs were estimated at $5000 per Season!
Would I recommend that to anyone?
NO
It is insane.

Well said. I totally agree with you.

Now if a child wants to skate, I would recomment Synchro Skating if you can afford the costs. At least with Synchros, your child will learn about teamwork and competition but you won't be as poor as if they skated singles, pairs or dance. And your child doesn't have to have all their jumps or have the perfect body type.

With the continued corrupt judging being supported, I'd think seriously about supporting the sport to that level for my child.

[Cupcake]

I was just reading something that someone posted on unseen skaters. It stated that the NACS would only hold one competition for novice pairs and dance, while single ladies and men each get two.Why is it that if the USFSA has to cut cost it is always the pairs and dance that suffer.With this mentality the USA will have a tough time producing top world class teams!

[jp1andOnly]

Syncro can also be very expensive, especially if you are a high ranked team and have to travel to competitions. It's also time consuming because of all the fundraising

As a family with a high level competitive skater, my parents always encouraged him in whatever stream he wanted. They supported him and told him when he didn't want to skate anymore to let them know. My parents don't regret all the sacrifices they went through for him because he ended up doing something he enjoyed greatly.

My parents didn't encourage him in one stream or the other. My brother was a talented freeskater and HATED dance. He actually did pairs for several months but found he didn't have the tempermant or the patience for the discipline. Being a pairs skater or an ice dancer, requires a certain personality in my mind. My brother was better at jumping and he had no interest in doing dance or really pairs. I would wait and find out if your child gravitates towards one stream rather than the others.

Most of all your child should be having fun.

[jp1andOnly]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
No, I wouldnt encourage any form of competitive skating, including pairs and ice dance, if I had to do it all over again.
Why?
Because the expense involved is just too great for the rewards that are reaped.
There are rewards of course, but not enough of them to counterbalance the toll skating expenses take on the family income.
The other reason is that skaters who want to compete at high levels put in nearly all of their freetime hours toward skating, and because of that they miss out on opportunites such as drama, and music and school sports/activites.
That kind of dedication and commitment should offer significant opportunites and in other sports it would! I have seen my childrens friends receive scholarship offers worth thousands of dollars to play volleyball, water polo, softball, etc, and none of those sports required even half the money or time commitment as skating.
As commited athletes they receive zero offers for nonexistent skating scholarships, very littel recognition among their peers(and for the males they actually often receive ridicule).
The rewards of learning to manage their time, etc, can be learned with any sport , so I dont see that competitive skating offers anything that other sports dont offer.
If I had known about the inconsistent judging standards, the politics, the influence of money/certain clubs/ certain coaches on results I would have reconsidered too.
My daughter recently received an invitation to try out with a junior dance partner.
the coaches informed her that weekly lessons would cost $400.
$400!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she also would be paying for ice time for herself AND her partner!
Costume costs were estimated at $5000 per Season!
Would I recommend that to anyone?
NO
It is insane.


As a competitive musician my flute lessons were well over 100 an hour, not to mention my 10,000 dollar flute, travel, etc. The arts is also expensive. Yes, skating is more but other activities can add up as well.

I don't think we should discourage children from trying the things they love, I think you just have to pay attention to how much time and money you do invest.

[loveskating]

I thoroughly enjoyed the time my daughter skated competitively...and looking back on it, I think I enjoyed it more than I did, LOL!

I'm glad she skated, but I'm really glad she is no longer skating...let's put it that way.

Without some kind of help, I'm sure I couldn't have sustained her anyway when she got too tall to ever hope to get her 3 jumps, and ice dance was the alternative.

I think she learned a lot of life lessons, and had a lot of fun, and has some very special memories...plus, when she skates recreationally, she always meets people and is one of those kids at the center of the rink, who knows a thing or two, even if she is not in shape.

Even when I was getting up so early several days a week and working overtime 4 nights a week, the only dream I had for her was that she could do a waltz jump at age 70, like some of the old timers I saw at our public sessions...and she can do a lot more than that.

But I'm really, really, really glad she stopped competing when she did.

Furthermore, these days, I guess due to corporatization, the chances of being the backdrop and forced to play the "evil one" to network/media "entertainment imperatives" is pretty high...I'd hate to spend all that money and make all that sacrifice only for my child to wind up herself publicly ridiculed, and/or humiliated nationally and internationally, or even charged with a crime!

This is what has been happening much of the time in skating recently, and its a great turn off to me -- or any parent, I'm sure.

I also agree...the days when a Nancy Kerrigan could train at an elite level are over. Its not just poor people, like Tonya Harding, its working class people...Nancy's father was a welder, and so was mine, and I know welders make considerably more than the average "line" worker, they are highly skilled. But it is now impossible for people like that mostly, unless they get some assistance, and also, most wives/moms in the "working class" of wage earners have to work, so they can't take their kids to the rink, even if they have enough disposable income to do so.

[ClevelandDancer]

My perspective as an adult skater (started at 24) and a long time fan ...

I would not *ENCOURAGE* my child to take up figure skating of any flavor, but I would *SUPPORT* this choice if they made it. If you've ever been around a skating rink you know there is a difference. I would encourage my child to take up a sport that is more convenient and economical, like soccer, track, baseball, etc.

If they chose to skate, I want them to do it because they love to be out there and that reason alone. I would discourage the "another competition every weekend" thing that some coaches push ... competition can be fun and more experience is good, but doing a ton of local comps is mostly financially draining without giving your child much ice time. If my child just wanted to be the next "Michelle Kwan" or win an Olympic medal, I'd have to take a good long look at whether they were actually enjoying the activities or not.

Synchro isn't a bad choice for a skater that likes to skate but isn't headed toward the Senior competitive ranks any time soon. There are a couple colleges (Miami of Ohio, Western Michigan) that have made this a varsity sport. I don't know that they offer scholarships or not, but I'm pretty sure they pay for the coaching, ice time, costumes, travel, etc. The number of schools offering synchro at the varsity level is likely to go up because of Title IX. I skated Adult Masters synchro one year and the costs were around $2000 with travel (varies with carpooling, room sharing, etc.) ... we won sectionals (9 teams) and came in fourth at Nationals (12 teams), so a competitive team for this level. I'm guessing the "lower" levels of synchro are typically in this range; the novice, junior and senior levels have two programs each and need more practice time, extra costumes, etc. It was too time consuming for me to continue, but it's a nice team oriented activity. It's actually one of the few "girly" team sports out there (no offense to male synchro skaters!), you know, with the costumes, music, dancey programs, makeup, etc. Most girly sports are solo ventures (freestyle skating, gymnastics). But again, this is something I would support but not encourage ... soccer is still a lot more convenient/cheap!

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by ClevelandDancer
My perspective as an adult skater (started at 24) and a long time fan ...

I would not *ENCOURAGE* my child to take up figure skating of any flavor, but I would *SUPPORT* this choice if they made it. If you've ever been around a skating rink you know there is a difference. I would encourage my child to take up a sport that is more convenient and economical, like soccer, track, baseball, etc.

If they chose to skate, I want them to do it because they love to be out there and that reason alone. I would discourage the "another competition every weekend" thing that some coaches push ... competition can be fun and more experience is good, but doing a ton of local comps is mostly financially draining without giving your child much ice time. If my child just wanted to be the next "Michelle Kwan" or win an Olympic medal, I'd have to take a good long look at whether they were actually enjoying the activities or not.

Synchro isn't a bad choice for a skater that likes to skate but isn't headed toward the Senior competitive ranks any time soon. There are a couple colleges (Miami of Ohio, Western Michigan) that have made this a varsity sport. I don't know that they offer scholarships or not, but I'm pretty sure they pay for the coaching, ice time, costumes, travel, etc. The number of schools offering synchro at the varsity level is likely to go up because of Title IX. I skated Adult Masters synchro one year and the costs were around $2000 with travel (varies with carpooling, room sharing, etc.) ... we won sectionals (9 teams) and came in fourth at Nationals (12 teams), so a competitive team for this level. I'm guessing the "lower" levels of synchro are typically in this range; the novice, junior and senior levels have two programs each and need more practice time, extra costumes, etc. It was too time consuming for me to continue, but it's a nice team oriented activity. It's actually one of the few "girly" team sports out there (no offense to male synchro skaters!), you know, with the costumes, music, dancey programs, makeup, etc. Most girly sports are solo ventures (freestyle skating, gymnastics). But again, this is something I would support but not encourage ... soccer is still a lot more convenient/cheap!


There are 17 colleges supporting Synchro teams. Info is on the USFS site. In fact, if they get a few more teams, Synchro can qualify for NCAA participation which will open up the door to scholarship funds. That's very exciting!

[SkateGuard]

As an adult skater who was a high school and D-III athlete...

I would encourage my child in whatever activity s/he had a passion for. But if my daughter had her mind set on being a skater, I would definitely encourage dance, pairs, synchro, or hockey before singles skating. It's a rewards thing...if I'm going to spend the money or time for something, the kid had better have a statistical chance at success.

When I see 120 Intermediate ladies and 90 Juvenile ladies at Upper Great Lakes, I realize that 200 kids will go home without a medal, and 150 without making final round. When there are 12 dance teams, there is a 25% chance of going to Jr. Nationals.

However, my attitude about sports is not about making Nationals, the Olympics, etc. I was never a good athlete. (There's a great family story about me "beating" a golf cart at a college cross country meet.) The thing about skating that you can't get as much from the traditional sports is $$$$. Try making $20/hour as a park district soccer coach...you're usually lucky if you make minimum wage. But it's a reasonable wage for a college-age private skating coach.

I have a friend whose parents paid for 10 years of dance lessons. She never had the talent to overcome the fact that she's 5'2"--about 6" too short to be a professional dancer. However, she makes a couple thousand dollars a year choreographing high school musicals and shows, in addition to her full-time job.

Erin
(who knows the mom of a male skater who is convincing him to test his dances so he can be a "paid" partner for test sessions in college.)

[supersk8er]

As a current figure skater having realized the extreme costs of skating, I will never put my child into it. I would love for my child to have the experiences and joys that I've had, but I also want more than one kid, and I've seen the ways that I've been spoiled and where my siblings have suffered. Plus, as much as I'd like to, I don't think I'll be able to shelf out all of that money every year to support my child in skating. However, if I could, I will.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
No, I wouldnt encourage any form of competitive skating, including pairs and ice dance, if I had to do it all over again.
Why?
Because the expense involved is just too great for the rewards that are reaped.
There are rewards of course, but not enough of them to counterbalance the toll skating expenses take on the family income.
The other reason is that skaters who want to compete at high levels put in nearly all of their freetime hours toward skating, and because of that they miss out on opportunites such as drama, and music and school sports/activites.
That kind of dedication and commitment should offer significant opportunites and in other sports it would! I have seen my childrens friends receive scholarship offers worth thousands of dollars to play volleyball, water polo, softball, etc, and none of those sports required even half the money or time commitment as skating.
As commited athletes they receive zero offers for nonexistent skating scholarships, very littel recognition among their peers(and for the males they actually often receive ridicule).
The rewards of learning to manage their time, etc, can be learned with any sport , so I dont see that competitive skating offers anything that other sports dont offer.
If I had known about the inconsistent judging standards, the politics, the influence of money/certain clubs/ certain coaches on results I would have reconsidered too.
My daughter recently received an invitation to try out with a junior dance partner.
the coaches informed her that weekly lessons would cost $400.
$400!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she also would be paying for ice time for herself AND her partner!
Costume costs were estimated at $5000 per Season!
Would I recommend that to anyone?
NO
It is insane. I so totally agree with everything you said and this is based on up close and personal contact with a wonderful, talented ice dancer. It is fun, exciting, challenging and dream provoking. When you are caught up you don't see the possible disadvantages and even when you do you rationalize, especially when this is a dream of someone you love. It is a sport that ignores education and depending on the coach actually encourages a student "drop out". The alternative schooling these serious skaters receive is sadly lacking and should be investigated. There are elite skaters that rise above and attend school and go on to college but so many more lose touch with the years they should be in a "disciplined educational experience". Once you find yourself, as a parent, caught up in the fame or glory you rationalize and become a part of a culture that does not encourage education. If you are lucky enough to escape the druglike effect of figure skating you can see from a sane perspective the waste of money, time and hard wear and mental abuse inflicted on young bodies. Yes, they have fun, excitement, travel and challenge and they learn many life experiences but I am not sure the sport is worth it. No one is there to tell you what serious business can evolve from a private lesson or the taste of competition. I look at the smiles and bravery on the faces of those kids at the Nationals and Worlds and know what sacrifice lies behind the fancy costumes and music and fancy tricks. Only a few get the gold and they all get the criticism of Dick Button and Peggy Fleming. Competitive figure skating is a tough world with little reward.

[FSWer]

In reply,I'd like to please add that even though not a skater myself I am the friend of a sk8mom and the aquaitance of a forme Ice-Dancer and my friend's daughter and being so I can only say that from what I've heard from my friend if you feel that your kid could ever get good enough to do either Pairs or Dance then ask her/him if they want to do it. However if your kid is desperate at trying Pairs then just remind your kid that it is dangerous and of all the dangers and that if they do want to do it as part of their dream your not going to stop them as that may make you look like a bad sk8parent. If your kid does not want to do Dance or Pairs it's their choice. However if they do the best thing you can do as a responsable sk8parent is at least sit down with your kid and their coach and see what the coach thinks as the coach could tell you if there's a Pairs or Dance coace just right for her/him. My friends daughter is only about 14-15 and gold and there are other partners even younger. Hope this helps.

[Stormy]

When I have kids, I honestly wouldn't encouage them to be singles skaters, but I would want them to skate. If I stay in the area I am, there's a zillion and one opportunities for synchro skating, which I feel in the long run would be SO much better than to encourage a singles "career". Synchro teaches so many positive things that girls can use their whole life, plus it can be contiuned into college and adulthood. I think it's a really great and fun and challenging side of skating that too many skaters miss out on.

[IceDanceSk8er]

As the parent of a competitive ice dancer I can tell you it cost us about $35,000 last year. Call me nuts, but it's been worth every penny and sacifice. You may equate the expense of skating with the reward of a medal, but if you do, you're missing the greater benefits that competition and skating has to offer.

My daughter has one medal from nationals in three trips, a team envelop assignment, and one JGP. What she has that can't be measured by money or medals is self-confidence, focus, determination and a desire to be (as the commercial goes) all that she can - to realize her potential as an athlete, but more importantly, as a person.

What she has learned about herself through skating is invaluable, and she'll carry these lessons with her well after her skating career is over. Let's see someone put a price tag on that!

I'm so proud of the young woman she is and excited for her potential.

[WeBeEducated]

Icedancesktr...I know your daughter and I think she is wonderful!
You should be proud of her.
But, what she has learned through competitive skating she could have learned through many other endeavors that dont have a $35000 price tag.
I know she did synchro, I know she is intelligent and friendly, and I know she is one of my favorite junior ice dancers, but her great personality was well established before she teamed up with her (equally nice) partner for ice dance a few years ago.
All I am saying is that there are many wonderful sports and fine arts that dont cost $35000 a year,with more professional methods of "judging", and now that I understand that it takes that kind of money to even have a slight chance of "making it" I dont feel it offers anything above and beyond what the less expensive sports/hobbies offer.
Anyway, we are still in it, but I wouldnt do it all over again because of the greatly overpriced lesson costs, and the irregular and irresponsible judging by nonexpert volunteers who manipulate marks in they so wish.
Best of luck to your team!

[butterfly]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
As the parent of a competitive ice dancer I can tell you it cost us about $35,000 last year. Call me nuts, but it's been worth every penny and sacifice. You may equate the expense of skating with the reward of a medal, but if you do, you're missing the greater benefits that competition and skating has to offer.

My daughter has one medal from nationals in three trips, a team envelop assignment, and one JGP. What she has that can't be measured by money or medals is self-confidence, focus, determination and a desire to be (as the commercial goes) all that she can - to realize her potential as an athlete, but more importantly, as a person.

What she has learned about herself through skating is invaluable, and she'll carry these lessons with her well after her skating career is over. Let's see someone put a price tag on that!

I'm so proud of the young woman she is and excited for her potential. You are fortunate that you can afford the 35,000 for a year on the ice. That is actually a low number considering what it can become with top coaching, choreography, ballet, travel, costumes, etc. It is amazing what people who are affluent find to do with $35,000. Don't get me wrong we have been guilty of the same wasteful indulgence in the name of a dream. Yes, a young woman or man can gain more in character building from working hard at a local store for the $7.00 an hour and from participating in a sport that is fair in a high school than in figure skating. I am sure your daughter is a wonderful young woman to be proud of but it is NOT because of skating. It is because you love and care for her and teach her to be who she is. There are thousands of wonderful young people in universities that are becoming wonderfully trained and useful adults without this horrible indulgent sport of figure skating. You say you want her to realize her potential as an athlete but more importantly as a person.....don't kid yourself it is to see if she can make it to the top of the podium and because you love her and want her to have whatever she wants. It is your money to spend but we lose perspective in this sport. We did!! Many good parents must put a price tag on what they allow their kids to do because they don't have $35,000 to blow on one sport. Be grateful that you have a wonderful daughter but don't make this about character development...it isn't. We have been there and done that. I know when you are caught up in the possibilities that you don't listen, but I will tell you that some day you will understand the futile use of money in this sport. I would like to hear some parent not duck the issue and say "we have the money, we want our daughter or son to be a winner" now that story I could believe. Please don't give me the character building deal at $35,000 a year, I just don't buy it.

[Phuket]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
As the parent of a competitive ice dancer I can tell you it cost us about $35,000 last year. Call me nuts, but it's been worth every penny and sacifice. You may equate the expense of skating with the reward of a medal, but if you do, you're missing the greater benefits that competition and skating has to offer.

My daughter has one medal from nationals in three trips, a team envelop assignment, and one JGP. What she has that can't be measured by money or medals is self-confidence, focus, determination and a desire to be (as the commercial goes) all that she can - to realize her potential as an athlete, but more importantly, as a person.

What she has learned about herself through skating is invaluable, and she'll carry these lessons with her well after her skating career is over. Let's see someone put a price tag on that!

I'm so proud of the young woman she is and excited for her potential.

Thanks IceDanceSk8er for your post. My skater and our family feel very positive about our overall experience with skating. You put some things into words much better than I ever could.

That's not to say we didn't have negative experiences or that we can't understand why other people might feel differently. We had some horrendous skating experiences. If I'd been asked during those times if I'd encourage my child to be involved in pairs or dance, I probably would have said no.

But stepping back from the competitive scene, years after many trips to Nationals, medals at Nationals, team envelope, international assignments, the experience was invaluable for my child....and no, another sport wouldn't have done the same. Colleges were excited about my child's background and experience with skating. It was unique and different. My child continues to have a positive relationship with many people in the sport by way of being on USFS committees. Coaches and judges continue to encourage my child to remain active in the sport in various ways....and this is a continued positive in college. Our experience has been that colleges love competitive figure skaters...especially ones with National and international credentials.

Who you know, where you've been, what you've done makes all the difference in the opportunities you are provided with. I feel that the experience with skating has provided my child with life long opportunities.

[viennese]

I would encourage my child to compete as an ice dancer or pairs skater. But I'd hope to work with a coach who'd understand that I'd want a well-rounded training program.

That means participating in off ice sports, i hope school and team sports. Gymnastics, weight/strength training, dance. It means learning about music, appreciating the arts.

I don't buy the argument that it's not worth it to pursue a sport (or art, or hobby) that the media and colleges don't care about. The media doesn't particularly care about chess or speedskating or archery either, but there are world champions in those sports, too -- if you love the sport, if you have the means and the talent, why not go for it?

[Gaela]

I agree that skating is not the only way to learn values like self-discipline, commitment and goal setting. There are many ways to do that, through sports and the arts or as someone says, though working at a job.

A family who has $35,000 plus to spend on their kids' extracurricular activities a year has a wide variety of choices among things that are very expensive--equestrian, figure skating, whatever.

It really seems to come down to disposable income.

But, the loss of education is something that would worry me a lot. There is really no substitute for education, and as Debbi Wilkes say, skaters run the risk of becoming a 'skating dummy'.

[viennese]

If I have kids someday, I'll encourage them in any sport they try. But I hope it will be one I can afford.

[skatepixie]

So, webeeducated, what would you recomend if you kid couldnt care less about school sports, music, drama, etc. I dont have outside activities, and i really dont care. I dont date, and I really dont care. Id rather skate than all that stuff. Lucky for me, my parents support me in it. Would you tell them that they shouldnt? Would you tell them to not allow me to compete? If so why? So I could do some other activity that wouldnt measure up in my mind? Why would you want to do that? What would the purpose be? Is there one at all?

Why do you measure it by money? Why say "Oh she can get the life skills elsewhere, so its not worth the $$$?" If this is something that they like to do, why take it away from them? Honestly, if you did that to me, you would be very lucky if I spoke to you again. I mean really. Im not saying that you have to send them to Nationals, or w/e, but xompeting and trying to be the best they can certainly cant be bad, and if skating is the sport they choose, then why ask them to settle for something else?

Also, why say that you would only allow syncro? One reason I like skating is that I have total freedom. I choose the music, the dress, the coach, the tights, the skates, the hairstyle, the make-up, etc. I dont want to be on a team where I would have to do their program with their music, their dresses, and then have nothing to sya for it if one of the oter people mess up. I like that my fate rests on me, not Suzy on the other line who cant seem to stay upright. I like the individual sport thing. Syncro doesnt encourage as much creativity as a skater and has a rule of no jumps higher than Lutz. I cant imagine doing that as ones only form of competitive skating.

[mary]

Originally posted by skatepixie
. . .

Also, why say that you would only allow syncro? One reason I like skating is that I have total freedom. I choose the music, the dress, the coach, the tights, the skates, the hairstyle, the make-up, etc. I dont want to be on a team where I would have to do their program with their music, their dresses, and then have nothing to sya for it if one of the oter people mess up. I like that my fate rests on me, not Suzy on the other line who cant seem to stay upright. I like the individual sport thing. Syncro doesnt encourage as much creativity as a skater and has a rule of no jumps higher than Lutz. I cant imagine doing that as ones only form of competitive skating.


As a parent of a former synchro skater, I totally agree with your statements.

[Skatewind]

Although I can agree with many points that have been made, it is humorous to turn skating into such a black & white situation, i.e. evil skating vs all other "good/fair" activities.

Has your child ever been judged in music, art or dance? Chances are very good the judging is going to be as subjective as figure skating, perhaps even more so. Often things like art shows or competitions utilize only one juror, not a whole panel, who makes a selection with his vision in mind, not only by reviewing works of art individually.

Yes indeed there are plenty more sports scholarships available. But I would venture to guess in a sport like soccer with a lot of player availability, the overall percentage for any individual athlete to get the college scholarship is at least comparable to the overall percentages for the USFSA Scholastic Honors Team due to the lesser number of eligible athletes. For some other sports or specific positions, the scholarship odds increase dramatically, but there's a reason for that. It's because not so many children want to devote years of their life playing some of those positions or sports, whereas, most children who figure skate take pleasure in the activity alone without competition or all the other incidentals.

I am hard pressed to come up with a job for young adults or college students with a higher financial return by the hour than teaching skating (for those who are qualified), at least in our area. So it can help create a good transition into adulthood for many kids.

There are problems, but no, it is not all bad. There is good & bad in all sports, but it's always easier to look for the greener grass rather than the pros & cons of both sides.

[WeBeEducated]

Originally posted by skatepixie
So, webeeducated, what would you recomend if you kid couldnt care less about school sports, music, drama, etc. I dont have outside activities, and i really dont care. I dont date, and I really dont care. Id rather skate than all that stuff. Lucky for me, my parents support me in it. Would you tell them that they shouldnt? Would you tell them to not allow me to compete? If so why? So I could do some other activity that wouldnt measure up in my mind? Why would you want to do that? What would the purpose be? Is there one at all?

Why do you measure it by money? Why say "Oh she can get the life skills elsewhere, so its not worth the $$$?" If this is something that they like to do, why take it away from them? Honestly, if you did that to me, you would be very lucky if I spoke to you again. I mean really. Im not saying that you have to send them to Nationals, or w/e, but xompeting and trying to be the best they can certainly cant be bad, and if skating is the sport they choose, then why ask them to settle for something else?

Also, why say that you would only allow syncro? One reason I like skating is that I have total freedom. I choose the music, the dress, the coach, the tights, the skates, the hairstyle, the make-up, etc. I dont want to be on a team where I would have to do their program with their music, their dresses, and then have nothing to sya for it if one of the oter people mess up. I like that my fate rests on me, not Suzy on the other line who cant seem to stay upright. I like the individual sport thing. Syncro doesnt encourage as much creativity as a skater and has a rule of no jumps higher than Lutz. I cant imagine doing that as ones only form of competitive skating.

Skatepixie, I would tell a petulant, demanding, self centered child that I simply couldnt afford anymore to support her $35,000 per year hobby.
I would tell her that the family could no longer endure the stress created by the incredible expenses that lessons, costumes,
music editing, ice time, competition fees, and travel arrangements cost.
I would tell her that while she blithely thinks she "deserves" to do anything she wants regardless of how it affects those around her, that I would have to start to consider the feelings, and desires, and the needs of others , including myself. And that others in the family would love to have $35,000 spent on their hobbies every year too! Afterall....if it "makes them happy" then it is "worth" it, right?
Almost every skater you know, even the really good ones, are not going to make it to the Olympics...I would remind her of this .
I would encourage any child to explore a variety of experiences, especially a child who says they dont want to do anything except skate. Rather than see that as dedication I would be concerned that she would one day emerge from the rink as one of those sad socially stunted creatures that has focused entirely on herself for so long that she cannot make friends, talk in depth about anything other than skating, and is depressed that skating itself didnt deliver the dream she actually wanted...the Olympics. If she had "no interest in drama and music" then I would have known that her skating success would probably be minimal too, since music is such an integral part of a great skaters life.
Fortunately my 2 skaters are very appreciative of the immense sacrifices made on their behalf (that have made my own life more difficult). They think it is amazing and surprising that I continue to find ways to "rob Peter to pay Paul", or in other words that I find a way to enable them to continue to train. They readily accept and graciously agree to alter their goals, their amount of time on the ice, and their options for number of lessons, etc. when I have no other choice. They know it is a priviledge, not a right.
So if I had to do it all again I wouldnt want that kind of stress financially. We have really struggled and it can be humiliating to owe for lessons all the time.
There are many other things both of my skaters enjoy tremendously such as ballet for my daughter, and violin, and golf and soccer for my son, and friends, and school, and yes, I am happy to say even dating, and attending all the dances and proms. We deliberately chose to pursue life, not just skating.
If your parents do not have to struggle to pay $35000 or more every year for you to skate then you should consider yourself lucky, and find ways to show how grateful you are that they allow you to use their money for such an expensive hobby.

[skatepixie]

I guess Im lucky you arent my parent then. As for no interest in drama and music, its because I dont enjoy memorizing lines, delaing with directors, etc. I express music just fine, thank you very much.

I know Im not going to the Olympics.

My parent arent paying $35,000+ a year either.

Also, skating seems a lot cheeper than "education", which, IMHO, pretty much leaves you with no time and a chance to make more money. Thats what really not good for kids. Thats what burns them out. Its SCHOOL. Not skating.

As for looking for other things in life, my question is why? Ive been more unhappy at a school dance than I ever have or likely ever will be in an ice rink. In my case, I physically cant do ballet (flat feet and inablitity to point my toes. I did dance for all of two weeks, which consistend of "Point your toes! You arent trying! Point them!" from my teacher and much pain and tears from me.) and I cant run (also flat feet). So, skating is the only sport I can really do with out making an utter fool of myself. I enjoy it, my coach is great, and Im having fun. What more could you ask?

I really doubt that I will "one day emerge from the rink as one of those sad socially stunted creatures that has focused entirely on herself for so long that she cannot make friends, talk in depth about anything other than skating, and is depressed that skating itself didnt deliver the dream she actually wanted...the Olympics." For one thing, I know that there are two ways that I will end up at the olympics. In the stands or as a coach. The same is most likely true for nationals as well. My main goals in the sport are to pass moves and FS through senior, land a triple, and coach. Pretty realizistic.

[Justine_R]

If your child has natural talent then it is a good thing that she goes into pairs/ice dancing.

But still if your child does have talent at something, dont push them too hard let them work at it for a while at there own pace, skating is meant to be a mortfiying experience but one that a skater can enjoy.

[peaches]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
As the parent of a competitive ice dancer I can tell you it cost us about $35,000 last year. Call me nuts, but it's been worth every penny and sacifice. You may equate the expense of skating with the reward of a medal, but if you do, you're missing the greater benefits that competition and skating has to offer.

My daughter has one medal from nationals in three trips, a team envelop assignment, and one JGP. What she has that can't be measured by money or medals is self-confidence, focus, determination and a desire to be (as the commercial goes) all that she can - to realize her potential as an athlete, but more importantly, as a person.

What she has learned about herself through skating is invaluable, and she'll carry these lessons with her well after her skating career is over. Let's see someone put a price tag on that!

I'm so proud of the young woman she is and excited for her potential.

You sound exactly like my parents. They never once complained about the cost of my skating and their comments have always been similar to yours. Your daughter is lucky to have a parent that is so supportive. I know many a skater who has parents who define success in the sport by how well the child does in competitions and rag on them about how much money they're shelling out. :( They fail to see the greater value of the participation and what life lessons could be gained through that alone.

I'll say this as well, I don't keep in touch with a single person I went to school with, but my skating friends are still part of my life (and I haven't competed in over 10 years).

I don't have children, but if I ever did and one of them was interested in pairs or dance, I'd definitely encourage their interest.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Encourage? No, not unless I thought they had a particular talent for one or the other and didn't seem to realize it. Support? Yes. When I have kids, I plan to support them in whatever they wish to pursue, in accordance with what their father and I can do financially and without neglecting their siblings' needs and wants. One of my greatest regrets about my own skating is that while my parents have been great about supporting my skating financially, emotionally I've always had to depend on other people- my coaches, my friends, even my friends' parents at times. They just don't get it. I couldn't do that to any child of mine, no matter how much I wished they might have chosen to do something else.

That said, I hope to God my kids want nothing to do with figure skating. I've had an inside view of this sport at every level, and as positive as most of my personal experience has been, I've seen and experienced too many things I wouldn't want any child of mine to go through. It's character building, sure. I can't put into words how much the adversities I've experienced in skating have shaped my character for the better. But like other posters have said, there are other character-building experiences outside of figure skating, and I'm sure I would have had some even if skating hadn't been how I spent my adolescence.

[emyh]

Originally posted by skatepixie
Also, skating seems a lot cheeper than "education", which, IMHO, pretty much leaves you with no time and a chance to make more money. Thats what really not good for kids. Thats what burns them out. Its SCHOOL. Not skating.

So are you saying skating is more valuable than an education? As much as a I love skating and hope to continue skating for the rest of my life, I would not trade one minute of my education (no matter how inept my teacher was) to be the greatest figure skater of all time. Education is just important as skating, if not more. It allows you to be able to function in real life, which guess what, doesn't revolve around skating! I love learning just as much as I love skating, and your statement is just too absolute for me to disregard. Besides, burnout comes from *poor time management* and *taking on too much* that a person can't handle.

I've gained just as much as discipline from holding a part-time job as skating has taught me. Each have both taught me different things, but they're each just as valuable. I'm also glad my mother isn't paying -any- money for my skating at all. It's her money. It's my hobby, so I'll pay it with my money (from what I earn through my job). It's taught me more than anything else, the value of money.

I realize that my skating is a joy and privilege that shouldn't be an obsession. I agree wholeheartedly that I would support my future child whatever he/she tries. But to pay several thousand a year for skating, I would have to take a long, hard, realistic look at my child's abilities to see if they could actually possibly actualize their dream.

Originally posted by skatepixie
As for looking for other things in life, my question is why?

Instead of asking yourself, why? try asking yourself why not? I've been pleasantly surprised how much I enjoy other activities that I thought I would hate.

[Justine_R]

Originally posted by emyh
So are you saying skating is more valuable than an education? As much as a I love skating and hope to continue skating for the rest of my life, I would not trade one minute of my education (no matter how inept my teacher was) to be the greatest figure skater of all time. Education is just important as skating, if not more. It allows you to be able to function in real life, which guess what, doesn't revolve around skating! I love learning just as much as I love skating, and your statement is just too absolute for me to disregard. Besides, burnout comes from *poor time management* and *taking on too much* that a person can't handle.

I've gained just as much as discipline from holding a part-time job as skating has taught me. Each have both taught me different things, but they're each just as valuable. I'm also glad my mother isn't paying -any- money for my skating at all. It's her money. It's my hobby, so I'll pay it with my money (from what I earn through my job). It's taught me more than anything else, the value of money.

I realize that my skating is a joy and privilege that shouldn't be an obsession. I agree wholeheartedly that I would support my future child whatever he/she tries. But to pay several thousand a year for skating, I would have to take a long, hard, realistic look at my their dream.



Instead of asking yourself, why? try asking yourself why not? I've been pleasantly surprised how much I enjoy other activities that I thought I would hate.

I agree with every letter of this post,emyh has a point.
I love skating but if I had to trade it in for my education I wouldn't thats because we need education for many things, like for instance us and to support our families, if we didnt have education then we wouldn't be able to get money and support are selves and are families and be honest not many jobs nowadays take a person that is completly "dumb".

My next reason would be that-What are your chances of making it as a professional skater?
We all have talent but actually wining olympic gold is a very rare thing and even then if you did win u still dont get alot of money.(but enough:))

And think about it say you did get to the olympics but you never won the olympic gold, you have wasted your whole life and you will never get to experience what it is like going to high school or university.

Its like dont let skating interfere with your education.

And this is comming from a 12 year old.

[mary]

Originally posted by Justine_R
. . .And this is comming from a 12 yr old.

Justine, how can you be 12 when your profile says your birth year is 1987?8-)

[Justine_R]

Because its its always good to act older, just in case i am 12 well im on march6th and yes the birthday says differnt and it is a long story but we are getting off track.

[luna_skater]

Originally posted by Justine_R
I agree with every letter of this post,emyh has a point i love skating but if i had to trade it in for my education i wouldn't because weneed education for many things like for instance us are families, if we didnt have education then we wouldn't be able to get money and support are selves and are families and be honest not many jobs nowadays take a person that is completly "dumb".

My next reason would be that-What are your chances of making it as a professional skater?
We al have talent but actually wining olympic gold is a very rare thing and even then if you did win u still dont get alot of money(but enough:))

And think about it say you did get to the olympics but you nevr won the olympic gold, youhave wasted your whole life and you will never get to experience wheat it is like going to high school or university.

Its like dont let skating interfere with your education.

And this is comming from a 12 yr old.

Could someone please translate this for me? And perhaps make use of some punctuation and a spell-check? 8O

[Justine_R]

sorri ok

[Justine_R]

Try it now I think your eyes will adjust to it more.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by Justine_R
Because its its always good to act older, just in case i am 12 well im on march6th and yes the birthday says differnt and it is a long story but we are getting off track.

So are you admitting to lying about how old you really are?

If this is true, will the administrators here please take appropriate action?

[Lindsay]

I find this to be a very interesting topic, so many different outlooks. I myself, am unfourtunatly not a skater. By the time I realized how much I wanted to be a skater...when i was about 12...(or 2 yearsago), i had already made other commitments and the money was to much for lessons. I myself am a synchronized swimmer, and i'm not a competitive one...we are rec...altho we do compete alot...but I have many friends who are competitive and I kno it costs them about 30,000-60,000 a year and they arent even top national competitiors. I also sing and play piano, and its upward of about 5000 a year between lessons/competition and all the travelling we do. my point here is that its so unfourtunate, that so many things cost this kind of money and time and effort. I kno how long it takes to work on all my stuff, and i can't imagine how long it must take to perfect a triple lutz:P But the thing is, even tho my parents are just normal ppl w/ normaal salaries, they still support my dreams of competiting in the olympics for synchro or being a famous singer, and they always have and they always will. I think thats something that every athlete or musician or anyone wants from their parents is the support, that they just stand by you and care about what you do. Just my perspective:D

[skatepixie]

I would trade my education to be "the best skater of all time". I mean, who wouldnt? If you really could do that, well....then you wouldnt need the money you would get from a degree. Honestly, if I were to do very well in skating (which isnt gonna happen), I would drop out the next day. I mean, I certainly wouldnt need it anymore.

Also, if someone could explain what education has to do with real life and when I will use anything of what Ive learned this year (ok, Ill admit it, religion class has been useful....world religions seems funtional...but my other classes...come on....) will be useful in "real life", and by this I dont mean what collage wants.

I wouldnt tade my skating, such as it is, for education, either. I wouldnt trade landing my lutz first try for a 4.0.

Oh, and Justine_R, I would pay any amount of money to not have to "experence" high school. Anyone who thinks its the best time of your life is lying....or they have a really bad memory...one or the other....take your pick. Will collage be better? God, I hope so...

School doesnt bring me pleasent experence. Skating does. If not for skating, there are so many people I never would have met. I never would have found a sport I enjoy (think, what else has no running in it at all, except for maybe horseback riding, which is even more expensive? I did it as a little kid, but I didnt like it much. So, basically, skating is my only option as far as sports go...). I wouldnt have a goal in life. I didnt have one before skating. Well, I used to think I wanted to be a lawyer, but only for the money. I would have hated it. So basically, its saved me from a life I wouldnt have wanted...

[mary]

Originally posted by Justine_R
Because its its always good to act older, just in case i am 12 well im on march6th and yes the birthday says differnt and it is a long story but we are getting off track.


What?

[WeBeEducated]

Originally posted by skatepixie
I would trade my education to be "the best skater of all time". I mean, who wouldnt? If you really could do that, well....then you wouldnt need the money you would get from a degree. Honestly, if I were to do very well in skating (which isnt gonna happen), I would drop out the next day. I mean, I certainly wouldnt need it anymore.

Also, if someone could explain what education has to do with real life and when I will use anything of what Ive learned this year (ok, Ill admit it, religion class has been useful....world religions seems funtional...but my other classes...come on....) will be useful in "real life", and by this I dont mean what collage wants.

I wouldnt tade my skating, such as it is, for education, either. I wouldnt trade landing my lutz first try for a 4.0.

Oh, and Justine_R, I would pay any amount of money to not have to "experence" high school. Anyone who thinks its the best time of your life is lying....or they have a really bad memory...one or the other....take your pick. Will collage be better? God, I hope so...

School doesnt bring me pleasent experence. Skating does. If not for skating, there are so many people I never would have met. I never would have found a sport I enjoy (think, what else has no running in it at all, except for maybe horseback riding, which is even more expensive? I did it as a little kid, but I didnt like it much. So, basically, skating is my only option as far as sports go...). I wouldnt have a goal in life. I didnt have one before skating. Well, I used to think I wanted to be a lawyer, but only for the money. I would have hated it. So basically, its saved me from a life I wouldnt have wanted...
pixie, the more you type the more my own points are backed up! scarey8O

[Justine_R]

Originally posted by valuvsmk
So are you admitting to lying about how old you really are?

If this is true, will the administrators here please take appropriate action?

Ok, well thanks now they are jut going to ban me.

[luna_skater]

Skatepixie, I will agree with you that while you are in junior high/high school, it seems like many of the things you learn have no application in the real world. But I wouldn't trade my University education for ANYTHING. I have a degree in English (literature). I don't plan to be an English teacher, and I probably won't get a Masters in English, or become a writer, or a journalist, or anything like that. In fact, I am currently working on a second degree in Fine Arts. But University taught me, above all else, how to THINK. I don't remember every book I read, or who wrote it, or what it was about. But I know how to reason my way through a situation, argue any point of view intelligently, and express myself very clearly through writing. I also learned the value of public speaking and interacting with people from all walks of life.

I do not think those things can be learned through skating alone. I have been a competitive synchro skater for the last 12 years, and that has greatly shaped the person I am today. But that's not because of the act of skating; it's because of the team interaction, the travel, the coaches, etc. I was also a kid in school who participated in many activities: volleyball, basketball, track, band, Student Council, news reporter, and others. I will probably never go to the Olympics unless it's as a judge or spectator, but my skating experience has not diminished because of it.

If someone offered me the opportunity to live my life over, I would include skating, no question. But I would not give up everything else for the opportunity to do nothing BUT skate, even for the chance to go to Worlds or the Olympics. That doesn't necessarily mean that someone who is a World or Olympic Champion isn't happy with their life. But only a very small percentage of the world's population are World or Olympic Champions. For the rest of us, I think the best life to live is one of balance.

[emyh]

Originally posted by skatepixie
I wouldnt tade my skating, such as it is, for education, either. I wouldnt trade landing my lutz first try for a 4.0.

Oh, and Justine_R, I would pay any amount of money to not have to "experence" high school. Anyone who thinks its the best time of your life is lying....or they have a really bad memory...one or the other....take your pick. Will collage be better? God, I hope so... School doesnt bring me pleasent experence. Skating does. If not for skating, there are so many people I never would have met....


skatepixie, not everyone hates school as much as you do. Just realize there are different people who enjoy different things. I, for one, enjoy school (I'm probably close to your age too, since I'm still in high school). I been to every single homecoming, some football games, etc., and I wouldn't trade in those memories. You say, for skating, there are so many people you never would have met.... what about the people you'll meet in your HS and eventually college? Just realize that there is a whole other world beyond skating, and if you're not ready for it (hence, education), you're in for a very rude awakening once you try to become financially independent.

[Gaela]

Originally posted by luna_skater
But I wouldn't trade my University education for ANYTHING. I have a degree in English (literature). I don't plan to be an English teacher, and I probably won't get a Masters in English, or become a writer, or a journalist, or anything like that. In fact, I am currently working on a second degree in Fine Arts. But University taught me, above all else, how to THINK. I don't remember every book I read, or who wrote it, or what it was about. But I know how to reason my way through a situation, argue any point of view intelligently, and express myself very clearly through writing. I also learned the value of public speaking and interacting with people from all walks of life.

lunaskater you took the words right out of my mouth. Education teaches you how to THINK. While much of the high school curriculum does seem kind of useless for real life, it is important in my view to develop a love of reading and in interest in world and human affairs. As citizens in a democratic society, we have a responsibility to participate in our own governance and society. That's real life.

Education doesn't stop in high school or university, it is a life long process. Learning is wonderful.

Much as I love to watch skating, it is a very small part of the real world. A young person who only valued skating and cared nothing about education and learning is setting out to become a very unaware person who is not intellectually developed. In Debbi Wilkes words, "a skating dummy".

[sk8rbean]

Originally posted by Gaela

I figure it must cost something like $10 grand a year?

Does a poor talented kid even have a chance?


(This is all in American $$ and how it is in the US - I have no idea about Canada)

I am a skater and I must say that to be competitive at qualifying (Juvenile and up) levels the low end (haha) is about $15,000 per year. A skater having an hour and a half of lessons a week would probably have to pay this much without any ice time deals or cuts in cost from coaches. However , there are a bunch of Nov-Sr skaters who have an hour a day - five hours a week of lessons plus choreography, which racks up the costs to $30,000-50,000.

And, unfortunately, a poor talented kid just doesn't have much of a chance because money from the USFS at least comes in after the results do, and those results require money to get there. Now if a coach cut a poorer skater some slack on lesson fees or the rink cut their ice costs, then it might be ok, but again, these things might happen if the skater had already demonstrated their talent through competitions or at least having some jumping skills in practice - - - all of which requires lessons and ice time to get.

[lola lasagne]

The best piece of advice given to me by another skating parent was to make sure that my daughter keeps up on other interests besides skating. This was told to me when my skater was 6 and her daughters were 13 & 16. I stayed true to that philosophy and am so glad for my daughter that I did. She figured out at 12 that skating was not going to be "it" for her. Thank goodness that she had other talents to fall back on. She is now a very happy and involved three sport varsity letter winner in high school. And her skating skills did land her on the varsity hockey team. Skating was great at the time, but alot of times when a child reached high school age they would rather be involved there. Too many of the skaters have not developed other areas in their lives to participate in all that high school has to offer...art, music, other sports, debate, etc. Keep them well rounded, I say.....

[CanadianSkater]

Originally posted by skatepixie
I would trade my education to be "the best skater of all time". I mean, who wouldnt? If you really could do that, well....then you wouldnt need the money you would get from a degree. Honestly, if I were to do very well in skating (which isnt gonna happen), I would drop out the next day. I mean, I certainly wouldnt need it anymore.

Also, if someone could explain what education has to do with real life and when I will use anything of what Ive learned this year (ok, Ill admit it, religion class has been useful....world religions seems funtional...but my other classes...come on....) will be useful in "real life", and by this I dont mean what collage wants.

I wouldnt tade my skating, such as it is, for education, either. I wouldnt trade landing my lutz first try for a 4.0.

Oh, and Justine_R, I would pay any amount of money to not have to "experence" high school. Anyone who thinks its the best time of your life is lying....or they have a really bad memory...one or the other....take your pick. Will collage be better? God, I hope so...

School doesnt bring me pleasent experence. Skating does. If not for skating, there are so many people I never would have met. I never would have found a sport I enjoy (think, what else has no running in it at all, except for maybe horseback riding, which is even more expensive? I did it as a little kid, but I didnt like it much. So, basically, skating is my only option as far as sports go...). I wouldnt have a goal in life. I didnt have one before skating. Well, I used to think I wanted to be a lawyer, but only for the money. I would have hated it. So basically, its saved me from a life I wouldnt have wanted...

Haha! This was a great post. And I have to say I agree. I'm a high school student, and I have to say for the most part it is quite boring, especially calculus, I mean, when am I going to have to calculate the intercepts, asymptotes, concavity, points of inflection, and sketch the graph of a rational function that contains a quartic in real life? Never. So what is the point of high school? But joking aside, high school does teach you how to think, and gives you general knowledge, and it lets you explore different areas to see what you want for your future career, and what careers you are actually capable of doing. As you can tell, I am not going to pursue math, because I think it is boring, but the world does need mathematicians, and I'm sure there are some crazy geniuses who are good at math and enjoying doing it. I love the social aspect of high school, but I still would much rather be at skating and skate all day long instead of go to school. Unfortunately, this isn't an option, as I realize you need a career to make money and survive, and also my parents wouldn't let me. I do fairly well in school, but just cause I have to, or else I wouldn't be allowed to skate, I have to earn all the money my parents invest in my skating, because they believe school comes first, which I don't want to believe, lol, but it is the harsh reality. My advice is, even if you don't like school, challenge yourself and push through it, do the best you can. You will be rewarded and discover careers that you will hopefully enjoying doing for the rest of your life........ or you could always just become a skating coach.

[Clarice]

Originally posted by CanadianSkater
[B... or you could always just become a skating coach. [/B]

Aarrgghh! Pet peeve - must chime in here! Be it skating or anything else, NEVER become a teacher or coach unless you enjoy teaching and want to be a teacher! People who go into teaching only because they couldn't "make it" as a skater, a musician, whatever, often become bad teachers. A good teacher not only has skill in their subject matter, but also has a talent for explaining how to do things and a genuine love for teaching. Teaching should never be merely a fallback career. The students should not be your "second choice" - they deserve better. (Apologies, CanadianSkater - your use of the word "just" doesn't necessarily imply that you think of coaching in this way, but it pushed a button for me.)

[Cupcake]

Although I have enjoyed everyones replies to my original post, this thread has gotten a little off subject. I never once suggested we should substitute skating for education. I guess I should have worded my question a little different. My point was that in the "skating world" pairs skaters and dancers are treated as second class citizens.Even the USFSA seems to promote the single skaters more.Dance is probably the most expensive branch of this sport , yet it get very little recognition. If you polled the average person on the street they could probably be able to name at least 3 or 4 women olympians but would most likely struggle to tell you one dancer.So I guess what I am saying is if our own Association is indifferent to this aspect of the sport is it right to encourage our sons and daughters to pursue dance and pairs?

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by CanadianSkater
........ or you could always just become a skating coach.
There are already many unprofessional & improperly trained skating coaches because young skaters sometimes believe they can 'just' do it irregardless of skating level, leadership ability or communication skills.

Coaching, if done well, requires a lot of responsibility, knowledge, research & information management. When I referred to it in my previous post, I meant highly skilled & trained skaters who receive the cross training needed in order to teach group lessons or coach. Not a job to do for skaters who haven't taken the time to receive a real education or seek easy money without responsibility. If you are in situation where you are only looking for something where you can settle for mediocrity when all else fails, please don't just become a skating coach.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Cupcake
Although I have enjoyed everyones replies to my original post, this thread has gotten a little off subject. I never once suggested we should substitute skating for education. I guess I should have worded my question a little different. My point was that in the "skating world" pairs skaters and dancers are treated as second class citizens.Even the USFSA seems to promote the single skaters more.Dance is probably the most expensive branch of this sport , yet it get very little recognition. If you polled the average person on the street they could probably be able to name at least 3 or 4 women olympians but would most likely struggle to tell you one dancer.So I guess what I am saying is if our own Association is indifferent to this aspect of the sport is it right to encourage our sons and daughters to pursue dance and pairs? First of all, you can encourage or discourage your child but most important is that they find the type of figure skating competition that they do best rather than what gets most attention. The dancers generally are more graceful, flexible and have the ability to have strong edges and soft knees. Dancers can be tall or short but dancers being tiny is usually not the best if you look like a child. Dancer's careers can span easily into their 30's and sometimes it takes that long to break into the limelight. Dancers must be dramatic. Pairs usually demand the male to be strong and larger and the female to be small. Pairs females must be fearless and both need to be strong skaters and have "some" triple jumps. Single skaters must be strong jumpers and have all their triples and the men should have a quad. Even with the jumps they need to be expressive and well balanced in presentation to be successful. Single skater's career is over in their early to mid 20's.

Money IS an issue when you encourage or promote figure skating. If your child is average, which most are, then you may not have such a problem. If your child is gifted you are in for a scary, expensive ride.

Most other sports are enjoyed in high school and college and allow the student to be more well rounded and involved in conventional education. A gifted skater may be encouraged, and often by the Russian coaches, to place education on the back burner or be home schooled or participate in some correspondence type education, in order to put more time into skating to succeed. It is a problem in figure skating that is overlooked by zealous parents, USFSA and skating clubs. Winning at all cost is the philosophy. I know of a few coaches that value the student's education. If you have gobs of money and don't have an issue with education....I say go for broke. If you do not have $50,000 a year to blow on coaches, travel, costumes and tutors...don't encourage figure skating. Believe me a 6 to 13 year old does not hire a private coach, take the kid to the rink everyday, plan costumes and travel to competitions. The parent does all of that. I have been in rinks where parents push a crying child on the rink to practice and I have heard parents encourage tired youngsters to do "just one more axel". It can be fun, exciting, character building and a few get a big time medal...I keep asking myself is all that worth a medal.

[sk8rbean]

Most importantly: DOES YOUR CHILD LOVE IT?

If you're paying for it you sure as heck should be doing it because that is *the thing* your child loves to do. I know that I skate because I love to do it. I tried lots of other things but skating has a blend of the things that interest me and is the only thing that can keep my interest for nine years! I love the drama, the athleticism, working toward a goal, and being independently in charge of how I skate. For me, this is the right sport. I could have done a school sport - I was pretty good at soccer - but that wouldn't have brought me half as much as skating has.

If your child loves dance or pairs or singles, that's what they should do. Unfortunately the cost keeps some people who love it out. But if you can do it, it's worth it!

And I disagree, I couldn't have learned all I've learned from skating from something much cheaper. School sports wouldn't have taught me what skating has.

[skatepixie]

ITA! Theres not JUST about coaching. I do disagree about the wanting to be a teacher part though. Teaching in a school seems too boring to me. talking til you lookse your voice, and then going home to grade papers doesnt sound like fun to me. Also, I love skating, I dont even like the things I would teach in a school. Ive always loved childern and people, and in that respect I want to teach, but on the ice, not in a classroom.

So, in my case, HS isnt showing me what I want to do, because I already know what I want....

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by skatepixie
ITA! Theres not JUST about coaching. I do disagree about the wanting to be a teacher part though. Teaching in a school seems too boring to me. talking til you lookse your voice, and then going home to grade papers doesnt sound like fun to me. Also, I love skating, I dont even like the things I would teach in a school. Ive always loved childern and people, and in that respect I want to teach, but on the ice, not in a classroom.

So, in my case, HS isnt showing me what I want to do, because I already know what I want....

No offense meant, skatepixie, but between your current age of 15 (based on your profile) and when you become an adult, it would not surprise me if "what you want" didn't change, because I believe that how you will perceive things during that time period will change due to your life experiences (whether related to skating or not). Just food for thought.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by skatepixie
So, in my case, HS isnt showing me what I want to do, because I already know what I want....
I guess you missed the earlier point that formal education can have a LOT to do with the development of a good coach, since good coaches must be able to communicate effectively & creatively with good verbal & written skills, know how to do research, maintain finances & complete many other administrative tasks. They need a background in music & physiology & the sciences that affect the athlete, in addition to complete knowledge of the ins & outs of skating, preferably by doing it to a level of high achievement themselves. Are you learning these skills on the ice alone? I don't think so.

[Skatewind]

Back to the original topic. There are a few situations where it would be positive & productive to recommend a skater for pairs or dance. What needs to be changed are things in the culture of the pairs & dance community. I agree there is sometimes general disrespect by a number of coaches & partners for the girls in these team situations. People should rethink the "buy a Russian" or "any partner is better than no partner" mentalities, expectations that the girl's parents are always expected to pay, or the girl's parents are expected to pay not only for ice & training costs for the boy, but also personal expenses like a car, tuition, or other extravagent incidentals. It's also not unrealistic to expect skaters over the age of 18 (or even 16) to work part-time jobs to help contribute, but you'd be amazed at the looks you get from a few parents when you actually suggest it.

Instead of searching the world over for a "perfect" partner (oftentimes meaning one who's breathing, forget about skill level, for skaters who feel compelled to take desperate measures), we should go back to working harder to match younger skaters earlier on within their general geographic location so they can develop good strong basics along the way. I am impressed by the skills of some of the younger teams I have seen who have been together several years & did not need to move across the country at the age of 10 to learn their technique. Bringing them up from this level is much better than having to beg skaters to crossover to pairs & dance to save the day at the novice through senior levels. But it's not going to happen unless there are changes in the culture of dance & pairs skating, particularly from parents & coaches, & more realistic expectations become the focus for everything from funding to results at the basic levels.

[Skatewind]

Sorry, double post

[SouthernSk8rMom]

In regard to the question as it was originally asked here, I am just wondering how is it that pairs and dance are slighted by the USFSA? My child is a dancer, and has been for several years, attending jns 4 times and Nationals once so far. I think there are lots of reasons not to encourage your child to team up, or even to become a skater in the first place. Most of those reasons have already been covered in this thread; many of them are valid and I even have a couple of others I could add. I would not, however, put bad treatment at the hands of the USFSA among them.

[peaches]

Originally posted by skatepixie
ITA! Theres not JUST about coaching. I do disagree about the wanting to be a teacher part though. Teaching in a school seems too boring to me. talking til you lookse your voice, and then going home to grade papers doesnt sound like fun to me. Also, I love skating, I dont even like the things I would teach in a school. Ive always loved childern and people, and in that respect I want to teach, but on the ice, not in a classroom.



Well, Pixie, please consider this:

While most teaching takes place on the ice, there's plenty to do once the skates come off. You will sometimes talk until you lose your voice. You'll have plenty to do when you come home, like listen to tons of music to find just the right piece for a student, you'll have to cut/edit the music (unless the student's parents are rolling in $ and want a pro to do it), make tapes and CDs, etc. There are phone calls to take and calls to make with students and parents. You don't just leave the ice and leave your job, it sort of follows you home.....and sometimes keep you up all night worrying.

If you're working for a rink at which you also teach group lessons, there's paperwork to do for those, progress reports to write, and again, phone calls and meetings with parents/skaters to discuss progress, and whatnot.

There are weird hours, early, early mornings, late nights, and weekends taken up at competitions and test sessions.

I haven't even covered all of it, but let's just say there's a lot more to the profession than what people see on the surface. It's fun, but it's NOT for everyone. I've known skaters that had a career-ending injury, their partner left them, etc., so they thought "what the heck, I'll just teach!". Most of them realized pretty quickly it was a big mistake. The ones that didn't quit are lousy coaches that I wouldn't recommend to my worst enemy.

My advice to you is don't just ditch the idea of college because you *think* you know what you want to do. If you succeed in the classroom you'll always have more options than if you didn't put effort into your education.

[skatepixie]

PEACHES-Please, dont put words in my mouth. I never said collage was useless...I said High School was. Theres a diffrence. I hope to do the coaching program through UD for skating.

I realize that i will sometimes have to "listen to tons of music to find just the right piece for a student, you'll have to cut/edit the music (unless the student's parents are rolling in $ and want a pro to do it), make tapes and CDs, etc. There are phone calls to take and calls to make with students and parents. You don't just leave the ice and leave your job, it sort of follows you home.....and sometimes keep you up all night worrying.", however, I know I would prefer it to classroom style teaching.

For a short time, I used to think I wanted to teach. So, for my 8th grade year, I was a TA for 2 classes a day (it had been one, but I dropped chorus because I had injured my voice trying to sing while ill, and my director basically didnt care that I was ill, or that my voice was messed up. Then, when I recovered, he wouldnt take me back. But, I digress...). Well, one of the teachers I worked with was great. However, many of the students just didnt care. The teachers would send them to the admin, and the adminw ouldnt do anything. One boy was sent out of class by THREE SEPERATE TEACHERS in ONE DAY for diffrent things, and all he got was a talking to. He got 3 times the number of referals needed to be kicked out before they had a hearing to kick him out. I went to Italy for spring break and two weeks after, and I got the best supprise ever, no mean nasty kid.

As a coach, I get the last word. If a kid is disrespectful and chooses to poke other people with pins rather than pay attention, guess what? He's gone. I dont have to wait for the admin to do something. Id get to decide when enough is enough. Thats a major pluss, I think.

As for music editing, I LOVE doing that. I do it for fun. I wouldnt mind doing it in the least.

Paper work wouldnt bother me much either. Correcting a bunch of essays on the same thing would.

[jp1andOnly]

Actually the parents get the last word. Parents will basically tell you what they want you to do. Yes, some parents keep their noses out of it but the majority look out for the best interest of their child and they will dictate a lot of things that wilkl not make you the one in charge.

Not all skaters are well behaved and listen. I remember at around 13 years old I didn't listen to anyone including my coach. Most teenagers go through some sort of emotional time during puberty. Are you going to drop your skaters because they are at that age and won't listen? Even my best students piss you off.

As for music editing, its a lot harder than you think, especailly when you have to edit a 45 min piece of music down to 3 min and have about 20 different splices.

Unless you are a high level competitior or have obtained triple jumps, making a living as a coach is tough work. Sorry, coaching for 9 bucks is not going to cut it. Because you would be self employed you have to pay your own taxes and your own benefits. What if you get injured and couldn't coach? What if you decide to have a baby? Sorry, no maternity leave with pay for you. Being a coach is very rewarding, but it has many downsides.


Originally posted by skatepixie
PEACHES-Please, dont put words in my mouth. I never said collage was useless...I said High School was. Theres a diffrence. I hope to do the coaching program through UD for skating.

I realize that i will sometimes have to "listen to tons of music to find just the right piece for a student, you'll have to cut/edit the music (unless the student's parents are rolling in $ and want a pro to do it), make tapes and CDs, etc. There are phone calls to take and calls to make with students and parents. You don't just leave the ice and leave your job, it sort of follows you home.....and sometimes keep you up all night worrying.", however, I know I would prefer it to classroom style teaching.

For a short time, I used to think I wanted to teach. So, for my 8th grade year, I was a TA for 2 classes a day (it had been one, but I dropped chorus because I had injured my voice trying to sing while ill, and my director basically didnt care that I was ill, or that my voice was messed up. Then, when I recovered, he wouldnt take me back. But, I digress...). Well, one of the teachers I worked with was great. However, many of the students just didnt care. The teachers would send them to the admin, and the adminw ouldnt do anything. One boy was sent out of class by THREE SEPERATE TEACHERS in ONE DAY for diffrent things, and all he got was a talking to. He got 3 times the number of referals needed to be kicked out before they had a hearing to kick him out. I went to Italy for spring break and two weeks after, and I got the best supprise ever, no mean nasty kid.

As a coach, I get the last word. If a kid is disrespectful and chooses to poke other people with pins rather than pay attention, guess what? He's gone. I dont have to wait for the admin to do something. Id get to decide when enough is enough. Thats a major pluss, I think.

As for music editing, I LOVE doing that. I do it for fun. I wouldnt mind doing it in the least.

Paper work wouldnt bother me much either. Correcting a bunch of essays on the same thing would.

[peaches]

Originally posted by jp1andOnly
Actually the parents get the last word. Parents will basically tell you what they want you to do. Yes, some parents keep their noses out of it but the majority look out for the best interest of their child and they will dictate a lot of things that wilkl not make you the one in charge.

Not all skaters are well behaved and listen. I remember at around 13 years old I didn't listen to anyone including my coach. Most teenagers go through some sort of emotional time during puberty. Are you going to drop your skaters because they are at that age and won't listen? Even my best students piss you off.

As for music editing, its a lot harder than you think, especailly when you have to edit a 45 min piece of music down to 3 min and have about 20 different splices.

Unless you are a high level competitior or have obtained triple jumps, making a living as a coach is tough work. Sorry, coaching for 9 bucks is not going to cut it. Because you would be self employed you have to pay your own taxes and your own benefits. What if you get injured and couldn't coach? What if you decide to have a baby? Sorry, no maternity leave with pay for you. Being a coach is very rewarding, but it has many downsides.

jp, you beat me to it. ITA with all you said.

Skatepixie, no one is trying to tell you what to do, but I will say that I don't think you've been around skating long enough to realize all the ins and outs of the sport and what coaching for a living involves on a day-to-day basis. You're still in the honeymoon phase, everyone goes through that, it's understandable. I'm not trying to scare you off or make you think it's some horrible job, but it's not nearly as glamorous as it might appear.

[skatepixie]

Originally posted by jp1andOnly
Actually the parents get the last word. Parents will basically tell you what they want you to do. Yes, some parents keep their noses out of it but the majority look out for the best interest of their child and they will dictate a lot of things that wilkl not make you the one in charge.

Not all skaters are well behaved and listen. I remember at around 13 years old I didn't listen to anyone including my coach. Most teenagers go through some sort of emotional time during puberty. Are you going to drop your skaters because they are at that age and won't listen? Even my best students piss you off.

I realize that not all skaters are little angels. But Im sure that if a student is really nad you can say "No, sorry, youre gone." That happened to a 9 year old boy at our rink last summer. He wouldnt listen, pushed people on the public session, threw snowballs at peoples eyes on purpose, and did a lot of other things that Im just too lazy to type up right now. Guess what? The coaches all kicked him out. They talked to his mom first, and she was totally in denial that there was anything less than perfect about such kid, even after I had to take 15 mins out of practice because of snow in my eyes. So, he got kicked out. In a public school, he would have gotten suspended for a week, and even then the parents can contest it. There was even a case in a ppublic school where a group of middle school boys robbed the caf and threw eggs all over and stole money and food. The school (meaning admin here) said that the kids should be suspended for a week, have to pay back the money, have to clean up the caf as well as work there at lunch for a while. The parents had the nerve to say that this was "damaging to the boys" because it would harm their self-image. They sued. They won. In a rink, the kids would get a fast 86 down to the police dept.

"As for music editing, its a lot harder than you think, especailly when you have to edit a 45 min piece of music down to 3 min and have about 20 different splices." Ive done that....I thought it was fun...but hey, Im nutso, we already figured that one out.

As for triples and high level, well, in this area, triples are pretty rare. You can win inter-clubs at the senior level with out them. Artistry, which is my strong suit, is more important. Not that Im a bad jumper. I landed a clean Lutz 1st try. Not many people can say that.

Originally posted by peaches
jp, you beat me to it. ITA with all you said.

Skatepixie, no one is trying to tell you what to do, but I will say that I don't think you've been around skating long enough to realize all the ins and outs of the sport and what coaching for a living involves on a day-to-day basis. You're still in the honeymoon phase, everyone goes through that, it's understandable. I'm not trying to scare you off or make you think it's some horrible job, but it's not nearly as glamorous as it might appear.

Seems a lot better than all alternatives. Id be doing something i love, but apparently that doesnt count for much around here...

[Cupcake]

Why dont you start a new thread about education!

[peaches]

There was one going, but I don't think it was really seen in the skaters forum. http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12440

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by SouthernSk8rMom
In regard to the question as it was originally asked here, I am just wondering how is it that pairs and dance are slighted by the USFSA?
I would be interested in reading more about this particular idea as well, because I agree with you there are usually many good opportunities available for good pairs & dance skaters. And there are a lot of large clubs that spend more time, ice & planning on dance than freestyle.

[skatepixie]

I think that people in the US tend to be more individualistic than in Russia. I dont think that its a bad thing, as such, but there is this tendancy to want to switch partners when things go wrong, move coaches, etc. In singles, this works out alright. But in pairs and dance, it doesnt. In Russia, a skater might only have one partner. In America, this is unheard of. G&G never had any partner but each other. In america, skaters switch like its nothing. I think thats part of the reason that our pairs do poorly.

I would let my kid do pairs or ice dance. If it were a son who wanted to do pairs, however, I would have to be *certain* that he was responisble enough to do throws and able to be gentle. If I thought that he would be too rough with a partner, I wouldnt let him do pairs....