Official USFSA Announcement on Cohen/Tarasova Split

[PAskate]

http://www.usfsa.org/news/2003-04/cohen-wagner.htm

[A.H.Black]

So, I guess the question is - How ill is Tarasova. Hopefully she whii be well soon.

[MQSeries]

I think this is where Nicolai would have come in handy if he had remained in the Tarasova camp. He could travel with Sasha to international competitions while Tarasova remains in Russia. I guess Sasha doesn't feel comfortable with someone like Usova or Platov accompanying her and needs someone who has singles-coaching experiences. Hmm. Wondering when we're going to start hearing Robin screams "I Love You" to Sasha at the end of a performance. Oh well, best of luck to Sasha for the remainder of the season.

[Debbie S]

Hmmm, there ar actually 2 different stories floating around. A post on the ESPN board (linked in the other thread on the split) suggests that Cohen and Tarasova had some differences. I wonder what version Tarasova will give to the Russian newspapers. Stay tuned.

The timing of this announcement is interesting - late in the day on Dec. 23. That means very few articles on the next day, other than the standard wire service stuff, and most likely no articles tomorrow b/c it's Christmas or Friday as I doubt the regular skating reporters (Hersh, Elliott, CB) are working tonight or tomorrow. Which means the earliest an article could probably appear is Saturday, which might also be unlikely b/c Sat is light reader day and reporters generally like to hold major (for the subject) news articles until Sunday or Monday. And then there's always the chance that the initial shock wears off so reporters aren't so interested in it any more, but I think Sasha and her camp should realize that this will be story #1 at Nats. Looks like MK's coaching changes will probably be a mere footnote.

I guess Sasha's camp figured that a few days' reprieve from the skating press will be good for her as she makes the change.

[Justine_R]

Does anyone know what IS wrong with Tarasova?

[Spider68]

I just love the "spin" and all the waffling by the "official" releases. C'mon folks! 12 days before Nationals? Sudden illness? We read all the gushing comments from Miss Cohen about how the coaching staff and venue was everything she didn't have with Mr. Nicks. And now the sudden change -- to Robin Wagner of all people? I'm going to sit back and watch this circus with a big bag of popcorn. Who said Nationals would be dull? What a soap opera!

[Skatewind]

A very entertaining announcement! :lol:

[Debbie S]

Originally posted by Bondo
It is pathetic that you can't just believe that Tatiana might be ill, afterall she is not coaching others as well it would seem.

Check the other thread and the ESPN board post that is linked there. According to that post, Tarasova is still in CT and was coaching a dance team instead of Cohen yesterday. We'll have to wait to hear what Tarasova has to say. I suspect that, as with MK and Frank C., we'll never really know what happened.

[LTM]

OK wasn't Tarasova in hospital a couple of years back and fairly sick then?

[spence1988]

This all seems a little suspicious to me. Yeah i can accept the fact that Tatiana is ill and can not coach, but like many other i believe there is more to this story. For example was sasha worned about this,why didn't Tatiana set up sasha with another coach until she can return, why did she choose robin wagner, ont to mention the timing of this all...sorry but i honestly belive there is more then just an illness breaking this partnership up, but then again i will have to sit back and see what the both of them have to say over the next few weeks.

[Skatingsarah]

Omg Why Robin.. They are soo completely different, that is if she is still with TT... I mean if she were to go to any coach and still come back to TT wouldnt she choose someone like herself...

"Lately I have not been feeling well. The amount of travel to Sasha’s international competitions has adversely affected my health. Physically, I need to have a less rigorous schedule. I will be going back to Russia to take care of myself. I wish Sasha all the best in the future."

So future, I guess there is no definete time when you refer to future.. But that is a different way of wording it, maybe I'm just reading into it to much! The USFSA article really leaves me hanging I want to know more! OMG what is going on!

[Fred Freebus]

It has already been stated in the Russian press that Tarasova will be at Russian Nationals with her students, Kulikova & Novakov and Andrei Graizev. Russian Nationals take place around the same time as US Nationals.

[candace]

Well I feel if this is what Sasha had to do, than let her do it. Tatiana maybe ill and I wish her all the best and hope that she will get better. I think that Tatiana has done a lot for Sasha. If they have split for other reason than so be it. I wish Sasha all the best at Nationals.

[Schmeck]

Has the health care system in Russia improved so much that Tarasova will get better care there than in the US? Remember the horror stories about former USSR hospitals, and the skater Viktor Petrenko took under his wing when she got deathly ill? I know that was many years ago, but I'd rather be treated in the US myself (and not because I'm a US citizen)

[jp1andOnly]

honestly, I wouldn't take my Canadian butt down to the US for treatment. (mine is free and even it it wasn't I don't like the system down in the US)

Perhaps she qualifies for subsidized health care or she has coverage over in Russia. I don't think the health care system in Russia is all that bad.

[ecure]

I don't think Tarasova is severely ill, that she would need extensive hospital type care, so it would not matter too much where she went. Perhaps she is exhausted and would just like to reduce her workload, I've read other articles to where she is still keeping plans to accompany lower level skaters to competitions in Russia.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by Bondo
And then there are the idiots who will view the announcement with cynicism because they really want to not accept the true honest reason for the switch but make it much more a sign that Sasha is flaky and use it to criticize her. It is pathetic that you can't just believe that Tatiana might be ill, afterall she is not coaching others as well it would seem.

Bondo, put on your journalistic hat. Less than 2 weeks before a competition for a wildly talented yet admittedly inconsistent skater's National championship, "skater in question" and her famous, successful, charismatic coach, who have had much publicity about the positive, synergistic relationship between the two of them, part ways based on the "illness" of "coach in question" being too severe to continue the existing coaching relationship with "skater in question".

"Coach in question", however, will be attending a National championship for a different country than that of "skater in question" with other skaters that "coach in question" currently coaches?

Given those facts, do you really think that there is no deeper story or reason for this parting of the ways than the "illness" of "coach in question"? 8O

[Tapper]

Do you any of you think it was easy for either of them to make the split?

They have "amicably parted ways." Tarasova is "going back to Russia to take care of herself." I would agree that it is possible/likely that there is more to the story, but I don't know that it is necessarily much more than what they've released to the public. Whatever the reason, it must be pretty important to bring them to split up the team. I am wondering if it is difficult for them to part ways. I imagined that they were close, that Tarasova was proud of her pupil, and that Sasha was appreciative of her coach... or am I totally off base?

Do you think this will have a negative impact on Sasha?

I'm trying to imagine Sasha and Robin Wagner together.

[Rachel]

I don't think they are lying about the health issues at all. TT has had health problems for several years and she has ignored them because she just had to coach that one last skater.

But if her health problems were that severe, she would be giving up coaching, not just giving up coaching Sasha. So yes, I think is spin; that's what PR people get paid to do. It would be against their best interests to out and out lie; the best stories are always based in truth.

It doesn't mean Sasha is a bad person, for god's sake. I think they came to a mutual parting of the ways based on basic incompatibility of expectations and that they both had enough class to not want to air those differences in public. I think this is a good thing; I think that if you choose to go to a teacher to learn from that teacher, you must respect that teacher's right to teach as the teacher sees fit, barring abuse. If you cannot accept that teacher's methods, or if that teacher cannot accept the way you want things done, then the best thing to do is shake hands and say goodbye amicably, which is what they are doing.

I think the reason behind the timing is fairly obvious. I think that saying Sasha chose Robin Wagner because Robin was there is a bit, um, how shall I say this, naive? If Sasha Cohen wanted to be coached by any coach on the planet, all it would take is a phone call and a plane ticket. She has the talent to get anyone she wants and the resources to make it all happen. Think about it; if she wanted to be coached by Frank Carroll, for example, she could call him tomorrow morning and be there by tomorrow night. She wouldn't be the first skater to do it; that's pretty much what she did when she went to Tarasova in the first place. A lot of coaches would be willing to go to her, just for the chance to work with her.

[AxelAnnie22]

Oh Man! I go on vacation, and look what happens. I am totally flabergasted! Sasha has had the best year ever this year. Perhaps the last two competitions are an indication of the lack of time TT has had to spend with Sasha. I can't imagine they would split just a few weeks before Nationals, just cause she thought she could get something better somewhere else. I just pray Robin won't mess with the choreography. I just can't picture this combo. But then, who would have thought Sarah would have won OLY gold!

[singerskates]

Maybe Sasha was thinking about how her coach was ill instead of what she was doing on the ice for the last two competitions she was in and that's why she flubbed her program jumps. I know when my coach had her two year old in the hospital because the two year old ingested something poisonous(sp), I wasn't eactly thinking about my skating either and I didn't blame my coach for not making it to my practice sessions. See coaches and skaters most of the time make special bonds. It's not all the time about boss (skater) and coach (employee) relationship. I think MS. T told Sasha that she should get herself another coach because she was getting too ill to be an effective enough coach for Sasha. Besides, singles is not Ms. T's first coaching love which she can do with her hands tied behind her back. Ice dance is.

singerskates

[Skatingsarah]

Hey guys I was just surfing around on different forums to get more of an update.. Anyways I was on fsuniverse and I found this.. It is a report from a russian paper, VERY INTERESTING!!- Journalists believe the main reason for the break up is Sasha’s poor performance at the last two competitions and the stress the work has caused to TAT’s health.

- TAT and Galina had a heated argument about Sasha not skating in Detroit. TAT insisted that Sasha takes time off and rests before the GPF. Galina, who managers her daughter’s skating career, insisted that Sasha skates in Detroit and got her way.

- Piseev said: We don’t comment on what takes place between our Russian coaches and their foreign students, it’s USFSA’s business. One thing though – it does not look like a good situation.

- Tarasova’s comments: I am leaving the sport all together. Time, age are taking it’s tall. My health is the reason, nothing else. Sasha and I parted nicely. I am not going to work with any more foreigners. Don’t want to carry that heavy of burden. The most I will do is consult. I am keeping Gryazev, will say good-by to C/S, and the skater from Sweden. After all Russian coaches should coach Russian skaters.

- Piseev said: Tarasova can do a lot of good training here. I will not call Tarasova immediately (about asking her to teach). She’ll probably call me herself when she is ready. I offered her to train Volchkova but she was not ready then to train ladies singles.

The link if anyone is interested is actually http://www.stog.ru/article.asp?oid=...10-ed805b68891f

[AndAllThatJazz]

TT is diabetic, has high blood pressure, which is made worse by her weight. Also there was talk of heart problems a couple of years ago.
So, it is quite possible that this is the true story.
Her health could suddenly become worse.
I don't know what the truth is, I am just saying that is could be the truth.
And I could understand that she would feel better and have less stress in Russia.
And perhaps Robin is the only coach free at this time of the year.
But I really am unhappy that she has gone to Robin, I don't see this as working out well.

[JDC1]

What if TT is sick but her relationship with Sasha is going poorly and it's too stressful and therefore she wants to quit working with her? Sorry but if everything was perfect and rosy TT could get some subordinate to step in and then Sasha could always train in Russia. Why Robyn...why not? AS for proximity being the reason , I doubt it, like the other poster wrote Sasha could pretty much get any coach (except maybe Frank Carroll, but who knows) to work with her. Maybe Robyn tried like heck to fix Sarah's technique but Sarah simply wasn't able to make the corrections? As for the flutz, as had been posted ad nauseum, the last two Ladies OGM flutzed so I don't think it's a do or die issue.

[Vicki]

Maybe illness is the real reason, but I find it very hard to believe that a coach at this level would give up a student two weeks before Nationals, sick or not. One wouldn't expect this type of announcement until after Worlds. The story just doesn't jive too well. Is it a coincidence this change was made after Sasha didn't do as well as expected in her last two competitions? I don't think so.

[skateflo]

If you start with the Hartford Courant article, Tarasova's health is not mentioned. The problem being philosophical differences about training. As I have also checked the various forums a clearer picture has emerged. The contract with the USFS for the cheesefest, Sasha's mother insisting she go against the wishes of Tarasov who felt that Sasha should stay home and train for the GPF. TT is not used to American parents interferring with her students and what she feels is best for them. From the reports that is when things really started coming to a head so to speak. I think Sasha was exhausted also and peaking at the wrong time and perhaps she thought people would think she didn't want to compete against Kwan.....Supposedly the call went to Robin after the GPF and they started training together the next Tuesday, December 16th. The news broke December 24th.

There were also some vague reports that all was not well between Cohen's mother and TT for some time before the Cheesefest issue.

I truly wish Robin and Sasha can develop a good working relationship and restore some of Sasha's confidence and drive. Perhaps this will not be her year but if she draws on her inner strength, like she had to do to give her stress back fracture time to heal, she could make great progress in the next few years and attain her goals.

[loveskating]

First, its not objectively important that Sasha did not win gold at the pro am or at the GP Finals.

Second, its fun to speculate, but realize that everyone is just speculating! We have what they said and I believe them.

Into the speculative mix, on the side of Tarasova's comments about Russia, and not working with foreigners, I would add that the very recent Russian elections (two weeks ago) indicate a mood in that country which would not be tolerant of Russian coaches training anyone but Russians. Not a single pro-American delegate nationwide was elected to their congressional level. This was not expected by any of the analysts.

The US has troops in Central Asia (based on Afghanistan invasion) that were by now according to the agreement supposed to have been withdrawn, and the recent overthrow of Schervernadze in strategic Georgia (which the Russians claim was orchestrated by the US) had Rumsfield there offering American troops, to which Putin replied that any troops from anyone but neighbors would result in Russian troops coming in. They believe that the US is trying to further carve up Russia, and destabilize it to do so. They also claim that the US is bankrolling the remaining rebels in Chechnya.

I would also add that I've read that figure skating is making money in Russia now, because everyday Russians were so angered and humiliated by SLC that they are voluntarily supporting their skaters now. I've been told by numerous Russians in NYC that Tarasova is numero uno as to figure skating coaches in Russia, which I am sure she would not like to see change.

It could very well be that her coaching an American to win Worlds would destroy her at home given the current political climate there.

[BittyBug]

Well that's certainly a konspiracy theory that I had not contemplated.

[IceDanceSk8er]

When does the movie come out?

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
When does the movie come out?

Can't wait to see Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson in figure skating costumes! ;)

[Chico]

Did something happen? Yep. Is it any of our business? Nope. Will we ever REALLY know the story? Probably not. Same thing I said on the Michelle/Frank discussion.... They are moving on and we should too. The past is the past, the future will be what it will be. Just "watch" and see what happens. For the record, I think Sasha's coach change won't last. Just my opinion and time will tell.

Chico

[Schmeck]

Quote: "First, its not objectively important that Sasha did not win gold at the pro am or at the GP Finals."

Comment: :roll:

[ClevelandDancer]

I buy the story (USFSA version). US and Russian nationals are going on at the same time, TT can't be in two places at once. If you've ever had a heavy travel job, you know it can be exhausting. The timing and the fact TT is still coaching in CT make sense as well. Her remaining Russian students will probably continue training there until they make their trip to Russia, afterwards, they will just stay rather than return. This scenario also gives everyone some time to pack up their lives, etc., before returning to Russia.

As for the other speculation ... I think Sasha should have skipped Cheesefest as well. Too many competitions in too short a time, three venues three weeks in a row. No time to train, too much travel, toss in flu season = no wonder. I'm guessing TT didn't much like Galina's interferance, Sasha may have been concerned about TT's health and distracted, but I think the official version holds enough water to buy the story for now. When we see TT back in the States on a regular basis, then we'll talk ;)

[pairs_guy]

Originally posted by Chico
Did something happen? Yep. Is it any of our business? Nope. Will we ever REALLY know the story? Probably not. Same thing I said on the Michelle/Frank discussion.... They are moving on and we should too. The past is the past, the future will be what it will be. Just "watch" and see what happens. For the record, I think Sasha's coach change won't last. Just my opinion and time will tell.

OMG, Is it any of our business? Yes it is, she is a skating "celebrity" which means if she has something worth talking or reading about in her life it will be done. Michelle and Frank discussion is moving on because the MAIN focus talk now is on TT and Sasha. Until another "big" discussion comes around this will be the talk. I think this coaching change will last, if not then I think Sasha should consider the next coach real careful and stick with him or her, it`s not good to keep switching coaches. It`s hard to mentally train, you never get to "really" prepare for a competition and it`s hard when time to peaking. We`ll see how well she fares out at Nats, I hope she does well I love her skating, but if she`s not gonna go back to TT then stick with Robin for more then a year to get something out of it.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Schmeck
Quote: "First, its not objectively important that Sasha did not win gold at the pro am or at the GP Finals."

Comment: :roll:

Your comment is utterly arrogant and utterly meaningless.

Here is a better comment, one which is not childish, but serious: Michelle Kwan lost the GP finals to Irina, then went on to win Worlds with one of her best skates ever in 2001...hardly a memory in her career, not objectively important overall...at all. Sasha's losses are likewise not objectively important, or if they are, this cannot be determined at the present time.

There are MANY skaters who never won many medals who have long careers...many!

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Bondo
That Sasha hasn't won Nationals or Worlds to this point also isn't important because Michelle hadn't won any more than Sasha has through this point in her career (which is by years in senior, not age). People just hold Sasha to a higher standard than Michelle it seems...maybe because Sasha is more talented?

The only discussion I have seen in this thread about Michelle Kwan has been about Michelle Kwan's break-up with Frank Carroll, which seems appropriate enough under the circmstances. The only people who have seen the need to do any comparisons of Michelle's and Sasha's careers are you and loveskating.

So who is it who is holding Sasha to a higher standard than Michelle?

[nyskatefan]

Rachel is sensitive and should chill out?

Pot, kettle, black.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Bondo
You certainly do seem sensitive to discussion of Michelle though Rachel. Chill out a bit.

Not me, dearie; Michelle is not the object of my particular sensitivities, whatever you may believe. I was just wondering if you were reading all these posts with cynicism and not accepting that people might have true, honest reasons for questioning this story. But I guess only a fool would ever question a story in a newspaper, or look for deeper meanings in a column, or think that there was some sort of PR program grinding over on a skater's behalf to preserve that skater's image in the media. Some people are even so silly they think the media is in on it all, as if the media cares one way or another about anything besides what sells the most advertising.

I fully agree with you on at least one point--I think that fans should judge Sasha and Michelle and all the other skaters by the same standards. Justice demands equity for all.

[hiliairyh]

Details, picking on details

Who are the historians here about measuring sticks?

Tara was 14 when she won nationals and worlds, so how many years into her senior competition was that?

Michelle was 15 when she won nationals and worlds, so how many years into her senior competition was that?

Should we measure by age or by years into sr. competition, or weighed importance on both, e.g. give age 50% importance and years of competing 50%? I think we have to give credit to both criteria.

Sorry, I am bored :lol:

[danibellerika]

But Sasha started skating at a later age than then did she not? Is that taken into account at all too?

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Bondo
People just hold Sasha to a higher standard than Michelle it seems...maybe because Sasha is more talented?

I think Sasha is neither "more talented" nor less talented than Michelle. They are both enormously talented and it's pointless to suggest that one is more talented than the other. You may be able to discuss the quality of the talent, the areas where the talent has been realized, etc., but I don't think it is possible, to know the
quantity of the talent.

When you talk about "talent" you are talking about natural gifts and potential. And no one really knows what the full potential is for either of these skaters since they are both still going strong and still developing and learning.

[Skatingsarah]

I think in order to have talent it is to set you aside from everyone else. It is a unique quality that separates one skater from another skater that creates talent. In other words talent comes in soooo many shapes and forms and no talent really is alike. Sasha's talent differs from Michelle's while Michelle's differs from Sasha's.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Bondo
I just asked a leading question, I didn't answer it. I'm just saying, if I am being logical and trying to find a solution to why Sasha is held to a higher standard, that reason is that she has more inate gifts and thus should be doing better than Michelle or others have. Whether she actually does have more talent isn't something I'm addressing.

I agree, the media and the commentators seem to hold Sasha to a higher standard than anyone else...

Sasha is more naturally talented than Michelle...a number of skaters are. Sasha can do lots more than Michelle can...a number of skaters can. Kwan stays on her feet, but she only has a great split falling leaf and spiral sequence, never even anything like footwork into a 3 jump.

Sasha plays it straight, just prepares far more difficult and more high quality programs and elements, and that is much, much harder, more high risk...its not easy to do the things Sasha does...maybe if she just stroke stroke jump or stroke stroke spiral with little flourishes of the arms and hands and poses she would have more strength to land 6 triples!!!

I do think its part of having so much natural talent...Pavarotti had a very hard time early in his career because some people with positions in the opera world knew he was a great challenge to their positions and did everything they could get away with against him...only people like di Stefano, Joan Sutherland and our own dearest Richard Tucker really supported him...because they loved OPERA more than themselves, and they positively wanted successors!

But also, some people measure accomplishment by titles, medals, number of medals, when relative to start someone won medals, etc. while others measure more by the actual skating...take Tara...I'm not impressed at all by how soon or at what age she won medals, I'm impressed that she had a 3/3 loop, a 3 sal/3 loop and a very difficult jump sequence, and was otherwise a wonderful spinner and had a joyful quality as a characteristic of her skating. I'm impressed that this kid went out there and attempted such difficulty numerous times, including in her LP at 96 Worlds, her international debut, and after a splat on the 2 axel in her SP at 96 Worlds. In hindsight, I am totally impressed that she withstood the pressure...I had no idea at the time what she was up against!

[nyskatefan]

" Sasha is more naturally talented than Michelle...a number of skaters are. Sasha can do lots more than Michelle can...a number of skaters can. Kwan stays on her feet, but she only has a great split falling leaf and spiral sequence, never even anything like footwork into a 3 jump."



Poor Michelle ... if only she could be as good as Sasha.

[Schmeck]

LOL nyskatefan! :lol:

Sasha is certainly more flexible than Michelle (almost grotesquely so, like a circus sideshow performer, IMO) but there isn't much Sasha does (although she's landed a more difficult triple/triple in competition) that Michelle hasn't done in the past. Actually, besides the rather sloppy "Sasha Skid", all I can think of is the more difficult triple/triple combo that she's done once...

[JDC1]

Sasha is more talented than Michelle...in what alternate universe?
Sasha is more flexible and that's it, she does nothing better than Michelle. They're both very talented as was ...gasp...Sarah Hughes and Tara Lipinski...I think some posters here have no idea how much work and talent it takes to even learn one 3 jump. Being dismissive of any of these tops skaters immense talent just shows a person's inability to see clearly because they're just so biased.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Bondo
I'm just saying, if I am being logical and trying to find a solution to why Sasha is held to a higher standard, that reason is that she has more inate gifts and thus should be doing better than Michelle or others have. Whether she actually does have more talent isn't something I'm addressing.

And I'm only pointing out that one cannot, IMHO, determine which one of the two has more or less innate talent. If your idea is hypothetical... "if I were being logical then I would say that"... you are still positing that Sasha has more innate talent then Michelle. Do you see that?

In any case, it's an interesting theory... maybe big shots like Dick and Peggy do think Sasha is the most gifted skater in history, but I don't think they hold her to a higher standard than they hold anyone else. I personally take exception to trying to quantify the extent of talent in individuals, especially in individuals who are obviously both exceptionally talented. What is the point, except to diminish the talent of the other?

As Skatingsarah points out, talent is unique to the individual and comes in many shapes and sizes. And I say, you cannot compare apples to oranges.

[quarkiki2]

It seems to me that trying to compare the talent of any of the top skaters is like trying to say that a person who scores a perfect score on the SAT is smarter than another person who scores a perfect score on the SAT. In other words, I think that it's pretty rediculous to say that Michelle, Sasha, Tara, Sarah, Irina, Fumie, etc. is more talented that Michelle, Sasha, Tara, Sarah, Irina, Fumie, etc. because they're ALL in that tippy-top eschelon of talent -- whereas the rest of us are so very far beneath, LOL!

It's almost like saying Rembrandt was better than Mattisse or something -- to me, they're all master artists who possess an unquantifiable gift -- one very, very few people will ever approach.

Or if you have two large glasses of talent and one has a drop more than the other, to measure the difference would take a rediculous effort, but to say that both glasses are full is completely correct. I say both Sasha's and Michelle's glasses are completely full of talent.

[ClevelandDancer]

Originally posted by Bondo
That Sasha hasn't won Nationals or Worlds to this point also isn't important because Michelle hadn't won any more than Sasha has through this point in her career (which is by years in senior, not age). People just hold Sasha to a higher standard than Michelle it seems...maybe because Sasha is more talented?

This is incorrect unless you are giving Sasha "a year off" due to her injuries. I don't because she qualified (bye actually if I remember), showed up, and had to practically be dragged off the practice ice despite being in obvious pain!

Kwan (from http://www.expage.com/MichelleKwanRules):
1992 US Juniors, 9th
(1) 1993 US Seniors, 6th
(2) 1994 US Seniors, 2nd
(3) 1995 US Seniors, 2nd
(4) 1996 US Seniors, 1st

Cohen (from http://www.sashacohen.com/competitions.shtml):
1999 US Juniors, 2nd
(1) 2000 US Seniors, 2nd
(2) 2001 US Seniors, withdrew
(3) 2002 US Seniors, 2nd
(4) 2003 US Seniors, 3rd

[Rapt2Go]

Originally posted by quarkiki2


It's almost like saying Rembrandt was better than Mattisse or something -- to me, they're all master artists who possess an unquantifiable gift -- one very, very few people will ever approach.

What a wonderful analogy, quarkiki2. I couldn't agree more.

I, too, think there's more to the story. I'm sure TT's health is in princilpe one of the reasons. But, as was the case with the MK/FC split, we'll probably never know the full truth. Except, of course, if the normally blunt TT speaks out later.

I wish TT a speedy recovery. And I look forward to what Robin can bring to Sasha's skating. I doubt we'll see anything as soon as Nats, but if the relationship continues past World's, I think we could see some very positive influences. Sasha doesn't need an overhaul to win Nats, afterall. And Robin has, like TT, coached an OGM.

[ClevelandDancer]

Originally posted by Bondo
Of course I don't count the year Sasha withdrew due to injury...she didn't COMPETE. Only a bloody fool would count not competing as competing.

So, you are calling me a bloody fool, eh? Nice and logical, yup yup ...

Your definition: which is by years in senior, not age.

Sasha was competing as a US senior in 1999/2000 ... therefore, in 2000/2001 she was a US senior regardless of her physical condition. And that is she didn't compete at US Nationals that year, she had quite a few senior international assignments that season. She has decidedly been on the senior scene longer at this point than Michelle was by the time she won her first US senior title. Really, only a "bloody fool" could argue that Sasha isn't in her fifth year as a "senior", US Nationals is not the only game in town by far.
:roll:

[nyskatefan]

Cleveland Dancer ... ya know what our problem is?
We never learned that fuzzy math! :lol:

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by Bondo
All I see are a pair of people desperate to deny that Sasha isn't doing any worse than Michelle.

Bondo ... did you see that little laughing icon after my comment? I was trying to be funny, but obviously failed miserably.

And for the record, I am not in the least bit desperate about anything involving Michelle, or Sasha for that matter. The only one with their shorts in a knot around here is you. Maybe you should look in the mirror before you start throwing accusations around.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by quarkiki2
Or if you have two large glasses of talent and one has a drop more than the other, to measure the difference would take a rediculous effort, but to say that both glasses are full is completely correct. I say both Sasha's and Michelle's glasses are completely full of talent.

Quarkiki, I like the way you think! Nice post! :D

[loveskating]

The tendency of some Kwan fans to make continuous huffy and categorical statements while deamonizing posters is entertaining, I suppose, but without reference to the standards or rules of figure skating...and will not change the actual skating.

Sasha is more talented than Kwan, its obvious even to the most casual fan that Sasha can do a lot more than Kwan can...and this has little to do with flexibilty (that matters on the quality of the front and side catch spins and the arch of the back on the layback only)...although Sasha is very flexible; it was equally obvious to the most casual fan that Tara could do a lot more than Kwan could...it was only a matter of time until Tara had a great skate and solidly beat her. Heck, Jose Choinard is more talented than Kwan, IMHO!

As for this "extreme" or "grotesque" argument, well, that is aestehtics, its not objective, its only what YOU think something looks like, not how hard it is or how it relates to the rules. She has great presentation and is talented at landing 6 relatively small triples very, very consistently.

Maybe you cannot measure talent, but you certainly can measure results, a 3 turn into a 3 loop is SKATING, and Kwan can't do it, and a lot of other things that skaters commonly do, or she would have.

As to Sasha:
1. having landed a 3 lutz/3 toe loop in competition,
2. having landed a quad salchow numerous times in practice or warm up;
3. having difficult footwork into 2 axel and flip, not just steps
4. having landed 3 salchow out of ina bauer numerous times
5. having landed a more difficult jump sequence in pro am competion with a half loop;
6. having a better 2 axel, more speed into it and out of it, and bigger;
7. having much faster and more difficult spins, including layback and forward scratch;
8. having more innovative spins and more difficult combination spins;
9. having a far more difficult side catch spin
10. having a front catch spin at all
11. having a better outside edge spiral, held longer, with more extension, no wobbles and more lean
12. having the ability to change edges on camel spin, with obviously better extension and more speed.

Other skaters are more talented than Kwan:

1. like a 3 turn into a 3 loop, which I've never seen Kwan even atempt (Sarah Hughes, Irina, Ye Bin Mok
2. like a 3 sal/3 loop (Irina, Sarah, others)
3. like changing edges on a camel spin, which is much faster, as well (Sarah, Sasha, Naomi)
4. like huge jumps with perfect air position (Volchkova, Fumie, Irina, Sokolova, etc.)
5. much faster spins, of higher difficulty like the Bielman (Naomi Nari Nam, Irina, etc.); layback (Angela, Sarah, Sasha, Naomi)

and I could go on.

Kwan wins, fair and square, for very specific reasons, but the fact is that when it comes to great elements she only has two, her split falling leaf and spiral sequence...her 3/3 toe loop is solid, but nothing to write home about in and of itself.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
" Sasha is more naturally talented than Michelle...a number of skaters are. Sasha can do lots more than Michelle can...a number of skaters can. Kwan stays on her feet, but she only has a great split falling leaf and spiral sequence, never even anything like footwork into a 3 jump."



Poor Michelle ... if only she could be as good as Sasha.

:roll: These categorical statements combined with constant efforts to either ridicule or deamonize posters...are really...well...high school. If I can admit that Sasha flutzes, that her jumps are not huge, why can't you admit that Kwan has small jumps, slow spins, and that she only does steps into jumps, not footwork or moves in the field...why can't you all discuss the ACTUAL skating, instead of constantly ridiculing and deamonizing posters?

Kwan wins because she has excellent presentation skills, and she lands six small jumps routinely, is very consistent...she only has two spectacular elements, while others like Sasha or Naomi or SARHA HUGHES or Irina have lots more...its just plainly obvious, nothing to fear, nothing to drive thousands of people out of skating for.

[nyskatefan]

Deamonizing posters?
Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

Shaking my head in disbelief.

I'll just let the facts speak for themselves.

Michelle Kwan - 7 National and 5 World titles ... 6 small jumps and all.

[Schmeck]

According to my daughter's skating coach, doing the three turn into a loop jump helps many skaters who have difficulty with the loop - it gets them set up properly, and the brain begins 'rotational' thinking ahead of the jump itself.

Doing a half loop in any sequence makes it easier, not harder...

[ecure]

Kwan stays on her feet..

I think that's quite an important talent! 8-)

[ClevelandDancer]

This thread has become kind of humorous with all the bickering! I actually do skate, or at least did before my pregnancy has put me on indefinate hiatus as Weebles shouldn't skate ... hence I have some time to argue silly subjects on message boards ;)

I will say upfront that both Sasha and Michelle are very talented skaters. They are both rightfully in the very top eschelon of figure skating and are worthy competitors. I am not slighting either.

In USFSA land, years in Senior or the nearly equally regarded Adult Pre-Bronze (*LOL*) is almost universally measured from when that test was passed. I passed Adult Pre-Bronze Freestyle in 1999 (if my old feeble brain serves me correctly), but I haven't entered a FS competition since. Regardless of my "lack of attempts", if I entered one next week, I wouldn't be saying I just got to that level. I've been at that level for almost 5 years. I am busy going nowhere fast with it, I would be a very green competitior, but I am not a newbie.

Even so, should the infinately talented Sasha actually compete in Nationals and Worlds this year, it is put-up or shut-up time with that argument in the "poor Sasha hasn't had as many chances as Michelle" department this year unless she wins *BOTH*.

As for three-turns into a loop jump ... from experience, it's just a different entrance, neither harder nor easier in the grand scheme of things than entering a loop from a long edge, just a personal preferrence. Speaking from experience, I can two-foot a loop from both of these entrances with equal ease ;)

Steps into a jump vs. footwork/MITF into a jump ... umm, sounds the same to me, what exactly do you think footwork is made up of?

Harder spins ... remember Michelle's camels in both directions she was doing a few years ago? Extremely difficult and very well done. Hardly anyone can spin in both directions with equal ease (Robin Cousins comes to mind). Most top-level competitors wouldn't bother taking the time to perfect spinning in the "wrong" direction when they could be spending that time working on a quad, etc.

Catch foot spins ... I must say this is the one move of Sasha's that is really, really ugly. I can't say the catch in front (Sasha) is any more difficult than the catch to the side (Michelle), both are of similar difficulty and rely more on flexibility than skating skill. Heck, *I* can catch my foot in front of (or behind) me and spin. Of course, it is only held at waist height (at best) because I am old and decrepit, but it doesn't really add much to the difficulty of the spin if you're good at centering.

And the ability to stand up ... priceless!

[turtlehead]

What does Michelle Kwan's talent, or lack thereof, have to do with Sasha and Tarasova splitting? Just curious since I didn't think Michelle Kwan had anything to do with it. Or maybe she really IS in control of everything!!! :twisted:

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
Sasha is more talented than Kwan, its obvious even to the most casual fan ....Heck, Jose Choinard is more talented than Kwan, IMHO!

Maybe you cannot measure talent, but you certainly can measure results....

May I point out the contradiction? How can one say in one stroke that Sasah is more talented than Kwan, that Jose Choinard is more talented than Kwan, and then say that maybe you cannot measure talent?

If you "certainly can measure results"... well, Kwan seems to have had better results in competition than either Sasha or Choinard.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by turtlehead
What does Michelle Kwan's talent, or lack thereof, have to do with Sasha and Tarasova splitting? Just curious since I didn't think Michelle Kwan had anything to do with it. Or maybe she really IS in control of everything!!! :twisted:

It came up in the context of some complianing that Sasha was all hype in the first place...not a great skater and with the implication that the entire discussion as to what she needs to do is irrelevant.

[loveskating]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ClevelandDancer
As for three-turns into a loop jump ... from experience, it's just a different entrance, neither harder nor easier in the grand scheme of things than entering a loop from a long edge, just a personal preferrence. Speaking from experience, I can two-foot a loop from both of these entrances with equal ease ;)

That is your opinion, but under the 6.0 system, a three turn into a 3loop got more credit than a standard loop, just as steps into a lutz got more credit than a standard, long edge entry into the lutz...I think that is the case under the COP but I'm not sure...certainly any footwork of the kind Ilia Kulik first made necessary gets more credit as entry to any jump under the COP.

Steps into a jump vs. footwork/MITF into a jump ... umm, sounds the same to me, what exactly do you think footwork is made up of?;)

Again, your opinion, but a sequence of 3 footwork elements beats simple steps...you'd agree that some footwork is harder than other footwork, would you not?

Harder spins ... remember Michelle's camels in both directions she was doing a few years ago? Extremely difficult and very well done. Hardly anyone can spin in both directions with equal ease (Robin Cousins comes to mind). Most top-level competitors wouldn't bother taking the time to perfect spinning in the "wrong" direction when they could be spending that time working on a quad, etc.?;)

Hard, yes...done with equal ease...no; the second camel was considerably less under control and not as fast as the first slow camel...and Kwan has even been known to get a deduction for failure to meet the required number of rotations! I've never seen her change edges like Sarah and Sasha routinely do on the camel, nor does Kwan have the extension and speed Sarah and Sasha do, with great centering!

Catch foot spins ... I must say this is the one move of Sasha's that is really, really ugly. I can't say the catch in front (Sasha) is any more difficult than the catch to the side (Michelle), both are of similar difficulty and rely more on flexibility than skating skill. Heck, *I* can catch my foot in front of (or behind) me and spin. Of course, it is only held at waist height (at best) because I am old and decrepit, but it doesn't really add much to the difficulty of the spin if you're good at centering.

Uh, you might think its ugly, which is your aesthetic perception and right (I think its magnificant, and I love it), but no one who is honest will claim that Sasha's side catch spin is not much more difficult than Kwan's, and Sasha's is not only faster, but she gains speed on it, whereas Kwan LOOSES speed on her pretty little side catch spin. Kwan's spins are generally well centered, but very slow by any comparison to not only Sasha, to but most other skaters! She is by no stretch of the imagination a great spinner...like Todd Eldredge is, in fact, in actuality, a great spinner, along with all the rest of the stuff he has! Kwan is not nearly as good a spinner as Sarah Hughes was...with a Kwan like side catch spin, but also a back catch spin where she gained speed, and a camel where she changed edges and had better extension, not to mention her layback, which was MILES above Kwans (and so is Sasha's).

And the ability to stand up ... priceless!

Quite, competitively...but the ability to stand up does not mean that one is a great skater or has great talent as to anything other than the ability to stand up...Kwan, along with that ability, has wonderful preesntation, a great split falling leaf, a great spiral sequence and a very solid 3/3 toe loop...talented, yes, as talented on the specifics as a great number of her competitors, no.

[smallsilly]

People just hold Sasha to a higher standard than Michelle it seems...maybe because Sasha is more talented?

I think the reason it seems as if Sasha is held to a 'higher' standard is simple...she is not winning, yet everyone goes on and on about how she is unbeatable and the best in the world. Shouldn't the best in the world be expected to win/skate clean? Michelle, on the other hand, is also expected to win and skate clean and usually, she does win and skate clean so really there is nothing to discuss. And speaing of being held to a high standard, if Michelle places lower than first in a competition, she is considered a has-been. Do you honestly think if Michelle places lower than first at Nats this year, people will not be saying her career is over and she is too old to compete, just because she won a silver? An Olympic silver and bronze are seen by many as failures in her career. If that is not being held to a higher standard than everyone else, I don't know what is!

Sasha and Michelle are heald to the "same" standard, they are both extremely talented, and are both expected to skate clean, and are both expected to win. Michelle delivers, Sasha does not. That is the difference :)

If you want to take Michelle out of the discussion and replace her with say...AP then yes, Sasha is held to a higher standard. The reason for Sasha not having a world medal yet is because she made costly mistakes in her 03 program. A skater with her talent, I expect a medal from her at Worlds. She should have had at least silver. AP, on the other hand, does not have a world medal because...well...she is just not as good as michelle, Sasha, Fumie, Irina, Sarah, etc...I would not expect a world medal from he if she went. We all know Sasha is a better skater than AP, so why shouldn't she be heald to a higher standard?

[sugar4]

I think the reason it seems as if Sasha is held to a 'higher' standard is simple...she is not winning, yet everyone goes on and on about how she is unbeatable and the best in the world. Shouldn't the best in the world be expected to win/skate clean?

smallsilly, I have been following this thread and I think you've hit the nail on the head with the above statement.

I'm a fan of both Michelle and Sasha's and can't believe that some posters feel they have to demonize Michelle and her amazing career in order to hold Sasha in high regards.

I hope that Sasha and Robin have a very productive partnership!

sugar

[ClevelandDancer]

Originally posted by loveskating
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ClevelandDancer
As for three-turns into a loop jump ... from experience, it's just a different entrance, neither harder nor easier in the grand scheme of things than entering a loop from a long edge, just a personal preferrence. Speaking from experience, I can two-foot a loop from both of these entrances with equal ease ;)

That is your opinion, but under the 6.0 system, a three turn into a 3loop got more credit than a standard loop, just as steps into a lutz got more credit than a standard, long edge entry into the lutz...I think that is the case under the COP but I'm not sure...certainly any footwork of the kind Ilia Kulik first made necessary gets more credit as entry to any jump under the COP.

Really? I didn't realize the 6.0 system explicitly said three turns into a 3loop got more credit than a plain edge. I didn't realize the 6.0 system explicitily said anything was better than anything else. Few people (other than you) consider three turns into a loop to be footwork. Personally, I put the 3-turns entrance into the "telegraphing" category, along with the half-rink edge into a lutz.


Steps into a jump vs. footwork/MITF into a jump ... umm, sounds the same to me, what exactly do you think footwork is made up of?;)

Again, your opinion, but a sequence of 3 footwork elements beats simple steps...you'd agree that some footwork is harder than other footwork, would you not?

Some footwork is harder than other footwork. I've never noticed Michelle's nor Sasha's footwork to be deficient. "Simple steps" is still just your opinion.


Harder spins ... remember Michelle's camels in both directions she was doing a few years ago? Extremely difficult and very well done. Hardly anyone can spin in both directions with equal ease (Robin Cousins comes to mind). Most top-level competitors wouldn't bother taking the time to perfect spinning in the "wrong" direction when they could be spending that time working on a quad, etc.?;)

Hard, yes...done with equal ease...no; the second camel was considerably less under control and not as fast as the first slow camel...and Kwan has even been known to get a deduction for failure to meet the required number of rotations! I've never seen her change edges like Sarah and Sasha routinely do on the camel, nor does Kwan have the extension and speed Sarah and Sasha do, with great centering!

Michelle has had an awful lot of 5.9 and 6.0 performances over the years to have had much in the way of deductions for lack of rotations, I've never heard mention of this before either. I think all three ladies mentioned spin just fine, all with excellent extension. None are deficient in the spinning department, but none are in the Ruh/Eldridge spinning league either.

Catch foot spins ... I must say this is the one move of Sasha's that is really, really ugly. I can't say the catch in front (Sasha) is any more difficult than the catch to the side (Michelle), both are of similar difficulty and rely more on flexibility than skating skill. Heck, *I* can catch my foot in front of (or behind) me and spin. Of course, it is only held at waist height (at best) because I am old and decrepit, but it doesn't really add much to the difficulty of the spin if you're good at centering.

Uh, you might think its ugly, which is your aesthetic perception and right (I think its magnificant, and I love it), but no one who is honest will claim that Sasha's side catch spin is not much more difficult than Kwan's, and Sasha's is not only faster, but she gains speed on it, whereas Kwan LOOSES speed on her pretty little side catch spin. Kwan's spins are generally well centered, but very slow by any comparison to not only Sasha, to but most other skaters! She is by no stretch of the imagination a great spinner...like Todd Eldredge is, in fact, in actuality, a great spinner, along with all the rest of the stuff he has! Kwan is not nearly as good a spinner as Sarah Hughes was...with a Kwan like side catch spin, but also a back catch spin where she gained speed, and a camel where she changed edges and had better extension, not to mention her layback, which was MILES above Kwans (and so is Sasha's).

I wouldn't know if Sasha's front-catch is faster or not because I cringe every time I see it and all I can think about is John Nicks' very incorrect comment that "Sasha isn't capable of hitting an ugly position". ;) I imagine it most likely is faster as her body parts are more centered over her skate in this position than Michelle's are in her very open side-catch. It's just like a scratch spin; when your arms and legs are far away from your body you go slower, when you bring them in you go faster. Basic physics, centrifical and centrifugal forces.

And the ability to stand up ... priceless!

Quite, competitively...but the ability to stand up does not mean that one is a great skater or has great talent as to anything other than the ability to stand up...Kwan, along with that ability, has wonderful preesntation, a great split falling leaf, a great spiral sequence and a very solid 3/3 toe loop...talented, yes, as talented on the specifics as a great number of her competitors, no.


Again, it is only your opinion that Michelle is not as talented on a great number of specifics. I still don't see the need to bash her (or anyone) because you prefer some another skater.

As for who is going to win Nationals and Worlds this year, we haven't seen Michelle's programs yet. Sasha's are up to the task if she has a good skate, but Michelle's have been for years as well. Both have had a couple coaching changes in the last couple years. And as we all know, ice is slippery. ;) I imagine they will go 1-2 at both events unless one or both of them decide to do a Zamboni imitation at some point. Sasha's concentration and focus have improved a great deal this year, Michelle's have been there for a long time.

[danibellerika]

Originally posted by Schmeck
Actually, besides the rather sloppy "Sasha Skid", all I can think of is the more difficult triple/triple combo that she's done once...

Sloppy Sasha skid? I don't think so, at least not this season. It's been smooth like butter. A nice improvement indeed.

[hiliairyh]

Originally posted by turtlehead
What does Michelle Kwan's talent, or lack thereof, have to do with Sasha and Tarasova splitting? Just curious since I didn't think Michelle Kwan had anything to do with it. Or maybe she really IS in control of everything!!! :twisted:

turtlehead, I wonder about that too, but then have you ever read a thread that begins talking about Sasha not ending with Michelle being drawn in, or vice versa?

Talk about off topic how are "The US has troops in Central Asia", "Afghanistan invasion", "Schervernadze in strategic Georgia", "Rumsfield", "Putin", and "rebels in Chechnya", related to this thread?

Add in a touch of opera, and that is off topic!!!

What I think is entertaining is that people who were dismissing Tara in favor of Michelle in 98, come full circle to appreciating Tara and dismissing Michelle now.

IMO, the effort of some posters to diss their non favorites in an attempt to build up their favorites is futile. The top skaters beat each other all the time. Skater A beat Skater B sometimes, and sometimes Skater B beat Skater A. If fans diss A in favor of B, what does it tells us of B, even a "no talent" skater A can beat B!!!

About measuring stick and standards, I disagree that Sasha is being held to a higher standard. No one has held her to the Tara standard yet. :D

Just an opinion.

[loveskating]

Oh well...the black pot calls the grey kettle black.

This claim that a 3 turn into a 3 loop doesn't get higher marks than a regular 3 loop or that footwork as opposed to steps is nothing etc. etc. is just hilarious...its like fans rewriting the rule book to support the skating of their favorite...what a pathetic HOOT! Next you will be claiming that Kwan's layback is the best...because she wins, or that her camel spins are fast!

Probably, as to presentation, steps vs. footwork, in the sense that the jump is not telegraphed, is irrelevant, but technically, footwork into any jump is harder than steps, and a 3 turn into a loop is harder than a standard loop entry.

As for the COP, I did read somewhere in some interview that it rewards difficult jump entries more than the former system, and from the looks of it in application, it does.

Course, it will not be in effect at Nationals or Worlds.

[nyskatefan]

loveskating is correct ... COP does reward more difficult entries into jumps, and COP will not be in place for Nats and Worlds. I read an article this morning over at Skatefans that talked a little about how things were going thus far with Robin and Sasha, and it said they had removed a few things that were in her program to garner COP points, in order for her to get better speed and flow.

[quarkiki2]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
I read an article this morning over at Skatefans that talked a little about how things were going thus far with Robin and Sasha, and it said they had removed a few things that were in her program to garner COP points, in order for her to get better speed and flow.

Really? And the articles about Michelle's coaching change say she's putting things IN to her programs.

This should make Nationals very, very interesing.

[Rapt2Go]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
loveskating is correct ... COP does reward more difficult entries into jumps, and COP will not be in place for Nats and Worlds. I read an article this morning over at Skatefans that talked a little about how things were going thus far with Robin and Sasha, and it said they had removed a few things that were in her program to garner COP points, in order for her to get better speed and flow.

OK, I'm confused. Why would they be working to add COP points? I thought Nats and Worlds were going to use the the 6.0 system? What am I missing here?

ETA: Sorry about that! I re-read was written, and I understand the comment. I'm a little slow today.....

[The Village Idiot]

Ok, call me slow, but I leave for a week on vacation and 8O !!!!

Has there been any word on how Sarah feels about all of this?

Oops - just updated to say just read the thread on Sarah and Robin not keeping in touch :(

[loveskating]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
loveskating is correct ... COP does reward more difficult entries into jumps, and COP will not be in place for Nats and Worlds. I read an article this morning over at Skatefans that talked a little about how things were going thus far with Robin and Sasha, and it said they had removed a few things that were in her program to garner COP points, in order for her to get better speed and flow.

I hope so...Sasha clearly needs more speed into that second flip...Sasha's flip is technically solid as heck, so constantly two footing that second flip has to be an issue of the footwork (looks the same to me as her footwork into the 2 axel) not giving her enough speed.

[lilwish]

I take this parting at face value. I think whatever the troubles were between them that both TT and Sasha are trying to do the classy thing in not airing what problems they may have had outside of what they have mentioned.

I will be interested in watching Sasha practice at Nationals if I get the chance. When she was with TT she did not do full run throughs of her programs at some practices I saw and, although I know many Russian skaters do this, I have often wondered if this was a problem for Sasha in competition.

I can not remember if Sarah did full run throughs at practices. Any thoughts?

[BarbraM]

If it's true that the Russians don't want any Russian coaches training anyone other than Russians, why don't they make them all go back and practice on their own ice then?

[Poohsk8s2]

One word BarbaraM... MONEY!

[BarbraM]

I'm aware it's better ice in the U.S., all I was saying is if the Russian government or federation or whoever doesn't like their nationals coaching Americans, then why should they have the priviledge of using our good ice?

But I understand what Poohsk8s2 is saying--they probably do bring a lot of money to the ice rinks here.

I still think it's unfair if they can't coach any of our people in exchange for that priviledge

[Poohsk8s2]

Actually BarbaraM, they are here because they can make money through coaching, endorsements and shows. Hourly coaching rates are through the roof, and most of the Russians I have spoken with are very honest about saying they would not be able to make the money in Russia that they do here. Although the Russian Federation takes care of it's elite athletes, it pales in comparison to the free ice and hard cash available in the US.

[BarbraM]

I have nothing against them being here in our country, but I think it's pretty selfish of the Russian federation to tell the coaches they can't coach foreigners anymore (if that's really true)

[Alexa]

This reminds me of how Yagudin used to make bad comments about Kulik because he came to train in the US instead of Russia, but then Yagudin conveniently did the same thing.

It does seem odd that the Russians can skate and coach here in America, but want to limit who they coach.