Naomi and Peter?

[icedancer2]

Hey -- I saw on TV this past weekend that Naomi and Peter did an exhibition at that cheesefest in Auburn Hills, MI and are planning on going to Nationals in 3 weeks.

I'm suprised we haven't had a discussion on this board about this (or have I missed it?) -- I thought everyone thought that they were through competing??

Any thoughts/opinions/predictions?

Very interesting...

[Rachel]

Naomi wanted to take a break; she was convinced to return.

[icedancer2]

Well, taking a break from the Grand Prix was probably a good thing and it worked for them last year...

[sweetlilnothing]

http://www.cmmskating.com/newslang.shtml



It's a good read. :)

[Roma]

I have a question for anyone who has an opinion here. If Naomi and Peter were to win Nationals, do you think that would hurt Tanith and Ben's chances to medal at Worlds? Theoretically, the answer should be 'No', but politically, I wonder if it would hurt Tanith and Ben if they were to be judged at Nats as only the 2nd best U.S. team.

Any thoughts?

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by Roma
I have a question for anyone who has an opinion here. If Naomi and Peter were to win Nationals, do you think that would hurt Tanith and Ben's chances to medal at Worlds? Theoretically, the answer should be 'No', but politically, I wonder if it would hurt Tanith and Ben if they were to be judged at Nats as only the 2nd best U.S. team.

Any thoughts?

I would hope not. I hope that everyone just gets judged based on the merits of their skating and how good of a performance they have.

I loved reading that article, Naomi is such a sweetie. It was so nice of her to say those wonderful things about the fans. It just makes me love Naomi and Peter even more! :D

[A.H.Black]

As to medaling, remember Worlds will be under the old system. I think that bodes ill for Tanith and Ben. The new system seems to allow for more room for movement; at least so far.

I just hope to see both couples skate well and I hope Naomi and Peter have upgraded their programs this year, especially musically. I would like to see a good "competition" program instead of something that looks like an exhibition program. I love them in exhibition but I prefer a good competition.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by A.H.Black
As to medaling, remember Worlds will be under the old system. I think that bodes ill for Tanith and Ben. The new system seems to allow for more room for movement; at least so far.

Well, we haven't seen the top couples compete under the old system this season, so it's hard to say where the international judges will "want" to put them under that system. However, I have a hunch the dance results won't change much--frankly, I don't think the COP is doing much from discouraging judges from making sure that skaters are put exactly where they want them, at least not in dance.

As for the situation at nationals, I suppose if Naomi and Peter show up and blow Tanith and Ben away (or B&A have some major mistakes), they could win. But I really think it's pretty unlikely world medal contenders for whom the international judges have already shown a preference are likely to lose at nationals unless they're quite visibly weaker.

[WeBeEducated]

Naomi and Peter are simply one of the most underrated teams internationally. I am thrilled they will compete again.
They have tremendous difficulty and speed in their programs. Their lifts and highlights are spectacular.
I havent seen any team in the USA currently that I would consider even equal to them, much less better than them. That doesnt mean I dont think we have some more good teams, because I do think we have some wonderful up and coming teams, and I think Tanith and Ben are entertaining and good.
But the finesse, power, speed, difficulty, musicality, stretch and extension of Naomi and Peter are world class...they have the skills and dont rely upon too much theatrics to convey meaning in their freedances. There is a depth to their skating that I love, in terms of edges as well as meaningful movements.
It is good news for the USA and for ice dance fans everywhere!

[IceDanceSk8er]

I wish i could get excited about their return, but I'm not.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
I wish i could get excited about their return, but I'm not.


the reason you're not, is that naomi and ppt have not been training like a competitive senior team. only recently have they been anounced as "choreographing" the od and fd.

do keep in mind that cmm is their promotional agent. the ooey gooey sweetie thing a good pr!

for two summers now reports abounded that naomi wasn't showing up and training as is needed for a championship team.

they'll be lucky of greg. and her pet. don't displace them.

unfortunately, many of the judges will still (despite the efforts of the enlightened international judges who are not able to dictate competence) "protocol" judge (gag) meaning that a teams history overcomes their shortcomings in the current real world. this "protocol" judging could still prevail at nationals.

unless b/a really freak and blow it again, they are the hands-down easy winners.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
the reason you're not, is that naomi and ppt have not been training like a competitive senior team. only recently have they been anounced as "choreographing" the od and fd.

for two summers now reports abounded that naomi wasn't showing up and training as is needed for a championship team.

they'll be lucky of greg. and her pet. don't displace them.

There's no doubt about L/T's talent, but you did hit the nail on the head about the lack of training. I have a problem with a skater or team - no matter who they are - that thinks they can just show up when dance teams have been working their butts off all season. Hopefully their hard work will mean something. It's time for them to retire and go out on top.

My picks (medallists) for Championship Dance:

1. Tanith & Ben
2. Naomi & Peter (regretfully)
3. Loren & David
4. Melissa & Denis

[Smiley0084]

So you all have actually seen with your own eyes that L/T are lazy slobs? They were INJURED over the past two seasons! Obviously they weren't training this summer because they had broken up/taken a break, whatever you want to call it. Why would you train if you had no intention of competing at the time? Go back and actually read the article, but since it doesn't have what the gossip fiends want to hear I guess you won't care :roll:

[what?meworry?]

yes.

the injury "thing" fluctuated from one thing to another with naomi and with no concrete medical actions taken. reports of "misdiagnosis, on and on, never were resolved. all the talk of "having an operation to fix 'it' no operation never actually happened. really, now, are all that many physicians that incompetant? i think not.

peter, two years ago reported suffering shin splints. then it was over. naomi's injury kept changing.

the folks reporting her disinterest in continuting two summers ago were accurate. it isn't her "injury" (which miraculiously no longer needed surgery), but her attitude that has held them back from their serious competitive training.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
There's no doubt about L/T's talent, but you did hit the nail on the head about the lack of training. I have a problem with a skater or team - no matter who they are - that thinks they can just show up when dance teams have been working their butts off all season. Hopefully their hard work will mean something. It's time for them to retire and go out on top.

My picks (medallists) for Championship Dance:

1. Tanith & Ben
2. Naomi & Peter (regretfully)
3. Loren & David
4. Melissa & Denis


with all due respect for g-r/m efforts, greg. and her pet. are, by default, the likely bronze medalists again.

i haven't seen gibbons/pakerak this season, but have heard they have made significant progress. they may challenge greg and her pet.

you are at skating club of boston. so it is you opinion that g-r/m are stronger than gib/pek?

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
So you all have actually seen with your own eyes that L/T are lazy slobs? They were INJURED over the past two seasons! Obviously they weren't training this summer because they had broken up/taken a break, whatever you want to call it. Why would you train if you had no intention of competing at the time? Go back and actually read the article, but since it doesn't have what the gossip fiends want to hear I guess you won't care :roll:

More importantly, why don't you go back and look at the posts we have made here about L/T and the other teams. We at least know something about the sport and the people who compete in it. Do you? A few of us have kids of our own who have worked hard all year, have competed, and earned their spot at Nationals. My daughter competed in a JGP this season, is going to Nationals for the third year in a row. She's worked her butt off all season to reach that point - a lot of skaters and teams have - a point you obviously miss.

L/T's return to competition is probably good for US Figure Skating and good for the fans - and that is good for figure skating. But, be aware that others may not be thrilled about it, and it's not for some petty reason.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
with all due respect for g-r/m efforts, greg. and her pet. are, by default, the likely bronze medalists again.

i haven't seen gibbons/pakerak this season, but have heard they have made significant progress. they may challenge greg and her pet.

Justin and Hilary look very strong this season, but I don't think they'll medal. I can see them placing 5th. I love your reference to greg and her pet. I couldn't stop laughing. I remember them when they were training in Chicago. I haven't hidden my Boston bias and that's why I'm rooting for G-R/M to improve on their pewter medal from last year. But as you and I both know all too well, anything can happen in this sport. Remember Championship Dance last year?

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
More importantly, why don't you go back and look at the posts we have made here about L/T and the other teams. We at least know something about the sport and the people who compete in it. Do you? A few of us have kids of our own who have worked hard all year, have competed, and earned their spot at Nationals. My daughter competed in a JGP this season, is going to Nationals for the third year in a row. She's worked her butt off all season to reach that point - a lot of skaters and teams have - a point you obviously miss.

L/T's return to competition is probably good for US Figure Skating and good for the fans - and that is good for figure skating. But, be aware that others may not be thrilled about it, and it's not for some petty reason.

Yes why don't I go back and read those posts that consist of hearsay and conflicting stories :roll: Yes I do know something about this sport and considering I used to skate at L/T's rink (not at the same time as them though) and have friends that still do, I guess I'm good enough to have a conversation with you guys, well I'll leave it up to you as to whether or not I am :roll: Good for your daugther for making it to the JGP, and nationals, but it still doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
with all due respect for g-r/m efforts, greg. and her pet. are, by default, the likely bronze medalists again.

i haven't seen gibbons/pakerak this season, but have heard they have made significant progress. they may challenge greg and her pet.

you are at skating club of boston. so it is you opinion that g-r/m are stronger than gib/pek?

Hillary and Justin are looking good, and could surprise quite a few people! However they do have still stiff competiton from M/K and GR/M.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
yes.

the injury "thing" fluctuated from one thing to another with naomi and with no concrete medical actions taken. reports of "misdiagnosis, on and on, never were resolved. all the talk of "having an operation to fix 'it' no operation never actually happened. really, now, are all that many physicians that incompetant? i think not.

peter, two years ago reported suffering shin splints. then it was over. naomi's injury kept changing.

the folks reporting her disinterest in continuting two summers ago were accurate. it isn't her "injury" (which miraculiously no longer needed surgery), but her attitude that has held them back from their serious competitive training.

Geez so now you're their doctor??? But I do have to agree about the attitude statement. If you don't love what you're doing 110 percent, it's going to show up in you're skating. Maybe Naomi just prefers the performing aspects more than the competitive ones? But only Naomi and Peter can say what really went on for sure. They did what they had to do for themselves, and not for anyone else, and I understand and respect that. Anyway, Naomi is just an awesome and sweet person, and I just felt compelled to defend her :)

[what?meworry?]

you don't need to be a doc to detect inconsistencies in claimed injuries as publicly reported.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
you don't need to be a doc to detect inconsistencies in claimed injuries as publicly reported.

But still, it's not very nice to post things you don't know for sure, 100 percent. I haven't read any inconsistencies about the injury though, could you please send me the links to where you read about them?

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
But still, it's not very nice to post things you don't know for sure, 100 percent. I haven't read any inconsistencies about the injury though, could you please send me the links to where you read about them?

mostly cmm, their own agents. check their archives.

also the usfsa archived articles.

and no, i will not go back and quote chapter and verse. if you want the details, go there and research it yourself.

additionally, there are folks who know and communicate with peter who have shared information. and no, i will not provide their names, should you be inclined to ask.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
mostly cmm, their own agents. check their archives.

also the usfsa archived articles.

and no, i will not go back and quote chapter and verse. if you want the details, go there and research it yourself.

additionally, there are folks who know and communicate with peter who have shared information. and no, i will not provide their names, should you be inclined to ask.

Don't worry, I wasn't going to ask, I trust what I hear from respectable and relaible sources only, and more importantly what I see for myself, no offense. I have read just about every L/T article in exsistance, and I have yet to see any inconsistancies, that's why I asked. But thank you anyway and Merry Christmas :) (Or just happy holidays if you're not christian :))

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
But thank you anyway and Merry Christmas :) (Or just happy holidays if you're not christian :))

i actually "celebrate" all three. there is a universal tradition during the darkest time of the year in the northern hemisphere, to brighten our lives with candles and now all sorts of lights.

what a glorious time. christian and jewish religious traditions, and the festival of kwanza.

and after the 21st, the days become longer and longer. just think how important light is for those who live above the arctic circle!

me, i'm going to nationals in georgia. not all that warm but hopefully the lights in the arenas are bright and the competition cheerful!

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
i actually "celebrate" all three. there is a universal tradition during the darkest time of the year in the northern hemisphere, to brighten our lives with candles and now all sorts of lights.

what a glorious time. christian and jewish religious traditions, and the festival of kwanza.



Wow. That must be an amazing expereince :D

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
Wow. That must be an amazing expereince :D

i'm fortunate to have aquaintances across many cultures. so i get to participate in their activities to some degree or another. i sure don't do the preparation work myself! (that's why "celebrate" is in quotes.)

i do enjoy the festiveness of this time of the year and take every opportunity to participate in all of the different activities of the season across all religions and cultures.

[WeBeEducated]

Naomi and Peter may have taken a break to reconsider their next move.
For any team that has won 5 Senior National Championship medals, and competed at Worlds and the Olympics it is quite understandable that a pause in serious training would help them evaluate their decisions!

They have achieved what most others will only dream of in the skating world. They have put in years of hard work and sacrifice to attain those results, so I wouldnt dare suggest that they have been successful with only a casual effort.

I dont resent them or begrudge their time off. I just hope they do well and I assume they will, even with time off this summer.

[SkateGuard]

I would tend to believe all the speculation about L/T not putting in as much training time other teams (namely, B/A) for a couple of reasons.

1. I have not seen them skate as well as they did in the '99-'00 season since then. That year, they were training in Detroit with their rivals (who many said were better than them) under Shpilband. The motivation and coaching showed. As I remember, a disagreement on training time caused them to leave Shpilband (and yes, I know Igor's a workhorse).

2. The rumors of their lack of training in the last year have come from so many reliable sources that it's difficult for me to dismiss them as rumors.

3. Internationally, teams are passing them by. In 2000, they were in a heated battle with Den/Sta for 8th or 9th place. In 2002, they finished just behind Nav/Kos. These two teams will likely be duking it out for the World title. Last year, these teams were 3rd and 4th at Worlds; L/T was still 8th--behind the US silver medalists.

Meanwhile, I've seen such a noticeable improvement in B/A _every year_ as they have progressed from Jr. World bronze medalists to GPF bronze medalists that their hard work is noticeable.

Just my $0.02.

Erin
(who is looking forward to a hopefully exciting Nationals.)

[WeBeEducated]

I agree that they have not been training as much as they used to.
But they still could beat almost every USA senior team this year with minimal training.
That certainly attests to their talent and exceptional ability.
People are suggesting that Naomi and Peter could be eclipsed by teams that have skaters who have been doing ice dance for about 2 years(Gibbons) or teams that have about an hours worth of international experience.
I highly doubt that a little time off will have destroyed the immense talent and the years of high level experience that Naomi and Peter can rely upon. They may not win it all this year, but they certainly could revive their Olympic freedance to win my vote against B&A cheesy WSS.
It should be a better dance competition now that they are back in it, regardless of what the judges do.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
They may not win it all this year, but they certainly could revive their Olympic freedance to win my vote against B&A cheesy WSS.
It should be a better dance competition now that they are back in it, regardless of what the judges do.

Aw, and now you've gone and put down my favorite dance team, and what is one of my favorite programs, WSS! CHEESY!? :evil:

Though I don't dislike L/T, they just don't blow my socks off. :?? On the other hand, B/A, IMHO, are exquisite and I love watching them.

It doesn't really matter to me who wins, although I will be cheering on B&A, because I really like this young team more than any dance team I've seen in over a decade.

[WeBeEducated]

Sorry Tapper.
Tanith is grinning like she is at an amusement park throughout the entire program in her one dimensional interpretation of WSS...while her partner implies drama with a blood splattered shirt?!
I used to love this team though, so I agree they are talented and definately have some special qualitites, but I dont think they hold a candle to Naomi and Peter.
Still, with both teams competing again we will see a better competition.
I heard that Naomi and Peter's OD is awesome.
Cant wait to see it.
Best of Luck to both teams. It is good for the USA to have them push each other to the top.

[what?meworry?]

well, i totally agree that having both l/t and b/a at natls will make for a more exciting watch.

i sort of agree that b/a's presentation of wss is a bit bland relative to the story line. but their incredibly complex and well executed skating is what is getting them recognition now.

last year l/t were more like a parody of themselves as world-class competitors. the opposite of b/a now, l/t were more like show skaters - much presentation, little technical content.

this year, l/t started choreographing their od/fd very late in the summer. up until then, they had not trained seriously.

so the bottom line is i'll suggest the b/a content and execution far ourweighs the issues with their interpretation. i suspect the efforts on the skills overshadowed the concentration on presentation. thankfully, ben hasn't been required to resort to the rediculous "faces" of anguish he had to make earlier in their career!

and, fewer cuts (although i don't think the whole piece sounds that bad) might have allowed them to emote mood changes with the music.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Sorry Tapper.
Tanith is grinning like she is at an amusement park throughout the entire program in her one dimensional interpretation of WSS...while her partner implies drama with a blood splattered shirt?!
I used to love this team though, so I agree they are talented and definately have some special qualitites, but I dont think they hold a candle to Naomi and Peter.
Still, with both teams competing again we will see a better competition.
I heard that Naomi and Peter's OD is awesome.
Cant wait to see it.
Best of Luck to both teams. It is good for the USA to have them push each other to the top.

Jeez...they're so great, we might as well give them the Championship right here and now and tell everyone to stay home. Look out Tatiana and Roman! You're next

[DancerFan]

B/A very likely have the hardest, most complex steps that the sport of ice dancing has ever witnessed the world over. They are infinitely talented skaters, a beautiful lady and handsome man, and lovely people. But is THAT what ice dancing is relegated to? Is that the direction it is headed? All steps, all difficulty, all tricky hand-holds; and no drama, no aesthetics, no integrity, musicality or point of view?

No one goes to the ballet and watches a piece of choreography to say, "wow that was hard." Great dance pieces - those that become or are true masterpieces - are ones which are choreographic genious. Twyla Tharp, Alvin Ailey, Martha Graham etc... are all choreographers whose work transcends time. Igor can't choreograph meaningful dances - he just shows hard footwork; and all things being equal, the dance which can be beautiful, impactful, mesmerizing, athletic, musical AND difficult will ultimately prevail.

B/A's WSS, with 12 music edits and overly happy/sweet Maria, is a parody of the show and dancers it emulates.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by DancerFan
Igor can't choreograph meaningful dances....

B/A's WSS, with 12 music edits and overly happy/sweet Maria, is a parody of the show and dancers it emulates.

So maybe they should get a new choreographer? Perhaps Twyla? :)

I don't see this piece as a literal re-telling of the story of Tony and Maria. An overly happy/sweet Maria in the red dress she wanted to wear to the dance is quite different from the Maria forced by Anita to wear a white dress to the dance. And there is little, if any reference other than the blood stained shirt, to the death of Tony and to Maria's grief.

I guess that if one thinks that this is supposed to be a literal retelling of the story of Maria and Tony, then it would certainly be seen by some as a parody, or, depending on how sacred one may think the original is, it might even be thought of as a travesty. But, I hold to the idea that interpretation is an essential element of creation, and this interpretation of the music and the characters that inhabit it, has it's own validity, and it's own meaning, no matter how transient/insubstantial its life might be.

Just curious, do you happen to know Igor? Do you think he might have thought about the significance of the red dress?

[WeBeEducated]

Originally posted by DancerFan
B/A very likely have the hardest, most complex steps that the sport of ice dancing has ever witnessed the world over. They are infinitely talented skaters, a beautiful lady and handsome man, and lovely people. But is THAT what ice dancing is relegated to? Is that the direction it is headed? All steps, all difficulty, all tricky hand-holds; and no drama, no aesthetics, no integrity, musicality or point of view?

No one goes to the ballet and watches a piece of choreography to say, "wow that was hard." Great dance pieces - those that become or are true masterpieces - are ones which are choreographic genious. Twyla Tharp, Alvin Ailey, Martha Graham etc... are all choreographers whose work transcends time. Igor can't choreograph meaningful dances - he just shows hard footwork; and all things being equal, the dance which can be beautiful, impactful, mesmerizing, athletic, musical AND difficult will ultimately prevail.

B/A's WSS, with 12 music edits and overly happy/sweet Maria, is a parody of the show and dancers it emulates.

BRILLIANT post! The best I have ever read on this board.
You said what I was feeling but organized the thoughts beautifully and got to the core idea with a perfect analogy.
I do not want to see a ballets "difficulty" either. I dont want the nuts and bolts of a dance on ice or off ice to be so obvious.
I want the movement and music to transcend the moment, and have depth and real integrity, just like Dancerfan said.
The program doesnt have to look contorted to be difficult.

[Smiley0084]

ITA dancerfan and WeBeEducated. I think the problem with ice dance is, that we have yet to see a couple that is the total package. There really is no couple that can combine difficult steps, lifts, transitions and holds with excellent presenataion, great dance-ability, beautiful positions all with great passion. The closest we have is N/K and D/S. But even they are not quite there yet.

[Tapper]

Wow, you guys are tough! Ok, I'm ready to shut up and learn. :bow:

[SkateGuard]

I am greatly enjoying this discussion...(crossing fingers that nobody slams either team!)

WeBeEducated, it's interesting that you compare ice dance to ballet. Remember, the origins of the free dance is ballroom, not ballet. I love watching ballroom, and the choreo there is more akin to B/A than L/T. Difficult steps in time to the music are what impresses in ballroom. Now professional ballroom dancers are better at expressing the music than B/A, but they're still young and have time to develop that aspect of their skating. (They're only what, 19 and 21?)

And if you don't think B/A can express themselves to music, look at their OD. I wouldn't be surprised if it got some 6.0's at Nationals. Swing is Ben's favorite rhythm, and it shows.

dancerfan, you give a convincing argument as to why ice dance should be eliminated from the competitive skating fold. I mean, has anyone seen judges in the box seats holding up cards during the ballet. You know, 5.9/5.9 for Alvin Alley, 5.6/5.4 for Martha Graham, etc. :P

Seeing the most difficult steps in ice dance is what keeps ice dance sport and not art. I'm not fond of the WSS program, but it's difficult, intricate, and B/A are capable of doing these steps in time to the music. It's analogous to the other disciplines--it's hard to have all of the other things you describe when you're trying to land 7 triples and a quad. And their difficulty is being rewarded by the judges.

OTOH, L/T have shied away from doing difficult choreo ever since they left Detroit. That's why they don't get a break internationally--they give up base mark points. But they have a solid feel for their music and wonderul highlight to the music. (Plus, I love that they often use one piece of music thoughout.) It's wonderful until you try to judge it as sport; it's easier to do.

Erin
(If ice dance was an art form akin to ballet, I'd prefer L/T; since it's a sport, I prefer B/A.)

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by DancerFan
...No one goes to the ballet and watches a piece of choreography to say, "wow that was hard." Great dance pieces - those that become or are true masterpieces - are ones which are choreographic genious. Twyla Tharp, Alvin Ailey, Martha Graham etc... are all choreographers whose work transcends time. Igor can't choreograph meaningful dances - he just shows hard footwork; and all things being equal, the dance which can be beautiful, impactful, mesmerizing, athletic, musical AND difficult will ultimately prevail.

B/A's WSS, with 12 music edits and overly happy/sweet Maria, is a parody of the show and dancers it emulates.

ballet is NOT an amateur competitive SPORT that progresses through a series of competitions to the olympics. ice dance IS.

it is totally appropriate that technical skills be a priority. igor paved the way in the usa for highly creative, artistic free dances. as a result, other coaches have significantly upgraded complexity and creativity and ice dance as a whole has improved dramatically over the decade or so.

my point was just that b/a's current presentation with this particular fd may not be "ideal" but as they become more comfortable with the highly technical steps, the highly creative and artistic side will return.

l/t, i agree with skateguard, have very rich, artistic presentation. but to me, with less (significantly, last year) complex technical choreography, they are more in the realm of former competitors turned show dancers. i had a similar sense about greg./pet. last season as well, and that dress business first during the practices and then during the performance (with a seamstress at beck and call rinkside to fix it at anytime!!) was a real turn-off and still colours my opinion of them.

(edited to add: how could i forget liz coates - the great technician behind igor's early teams - responsible for the "base" laid in training for b/a and lang of l/t!)

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by SkateGuard
I am greatly enjoying this discussion...(crossing fingers that nobody slams either team!)

WeBeEducated, it's interesting that you compare ice dance to ballet. Remember, the origins of the free dance is ballroom, not ballet. I love watching ballroom, and the choreo there is more akin to B/A than L/T. Difficult steps in time to the music are what impresses in ballroom. Now professional ballroom dancers are better at expressing the music than B/A, but they're still young and have time to develop that aspect of their skating. (They're only what, 19 and 21?)

And if you don't think B/A can express themselves to music, look at their OD. I wouldn't be surprised if it got some 6.0's at Nationals. Swing is Ben's favorite rhythm, and it shows.

dancerfan, you give a convincing argument as to why ice dance should be eliminated from the competitive skating fold. I mean, has anyone seen judges in the box seats holding up cards during the ballet. You know, 5.9/5.9 for Alvin Alley, 5.6/5.4 for Martha Graham, etc. :P

Seeing the most difficult steps in ice dance is what keeps ice dance sport and not art. I'm not fond of the WSS program, but it's difficult, intricate, and B/A are capable of doing these steps in time to the music. It's analogous to the other disciplines--it's hard to have all of the other things you describe when you're trying to land 7 triples and a quad. And their difficulty is being rewarded by the judges.

OTOH, L/T have shied away from doing difficult choreo ever since they left Detroit. That's why they don't get a break internationally--they give up base mark points. But they have a solid feel for their music and wonderul highlight to the music. (Plus, I love that they often use one piece of music thoughout.) It's wonderful until you try to judge it as sport; it's easier to do.

Erin
(If ice dance was an art form akin to ballet, I'd prefer L/T; since it's a sport, I prefer B/A.)

Actually, I find some aspects of B/A very un-ballroom like. They have poor form, and not the best lines, posture, or extentions, something ALL dancers pay a great deal of attetion to. But their twizzles and their turns are very ballroom like I must say. I also wanted to add that L/T's Air/Storm program choreographed by Zhulin, had plenty of difficulty, but for some reason they had trouble finishing their program on time, and always took a time deduction.

[sk8er1964]

I am not a dancer, nor am I a particular fan of ice dancing. B/A are the first ice dancers that I have enjoyed watching since Torvil and Dean. Their moves are difficult, not over-the-top showy. They have a joy in their skating that is not contrived - they are fun to watch. I hope that B/A continue their successes.

I have disliked L/T ever since last year's Nationals - well, I have disliked Naomi. I found her actions on tv to be overbearing and obnoxious - I know that she was happy to win their 5th (?) title, but to rub in into the faces of her competitors was very un-classy. (What I am talking about is when, right after the results came out, she hotdogged for the camera showing the number of titles they had won and laughing - like her competitors were dirt.)

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
I am not a dancer, nor am I a particular fan of ice dancing. B/A are the first ice dancers that I have enjoyed watching since Torvil and Dean. Their moves are difficult, not over-the-top showy. They have a joy in their skating that is not contrived - they are fun to watch. I hope that B/A continue their successes.

I have disliked L/T ever since last year's Nationals - well, I have disliked Naomi. I found her actions on tv to be overbearing and obnoxious - I know that she was happy to win their 5th (?) title, but to rub in into the faces of her competitors was very un-classy. (What I am talking about is when, right after the results came out, she hotdogged for the camera showing the number of titles they had won and laughing - like her competitors were dirt.)

Thats funny, because that's the one thing I don't like about B/A's skating, is that they seem too over the top (Although I like other aspects of their skating)

And so what if Naomi was celebrating infront of the camera? Her and Peter gave props to Tanith and Ben and were nothing but gracious to eachother on the podium.:roll: I didn't know it wasn't ok celebrate a huge win (especially when un-expected, and it's not as if she said "haha tanith and ben are losers" and stuck her tounge out) But hey, why don't you send the memo to Plushenko and Yagudin, and every other male skater that does it all the time? :roll:

[WeBeEducated]

I love endzone touchdown dances, I love champagne popping at the winners circle of a race, and I love for skaters to get real sometimes and ditch the ubiquitous prim and proper rehearsed lines about "I dont care about winning, only about skating my best".
Naomi wasnt rude, she was excited about their unexpected win for the 5th time. I hardly think that showing that excitment by flashing five fingers was ostentatious and certainly didnt seem disrespectful to me.
But I wont pretend to know her personally.
I am just saying that after watching the freedance they did at the Olympics about 20 times, I now marvel at the difficulty and the polish, the amazing quality of their lifts that flow from the music and make for gorgeous and difficult transitions, and the speed and neatness of their steps.
It is a very contemporary program in the minimalist style, so at first I didnt even see it as being particularly impressive. It is a subdued difficulty.
Then I watched the WSS freedance of B&A, abd I noticed Tanith looks like she is having trouble keeping up with Ben, which surprised me. It seemed like more flash than substance, more pandering to the judges than Naomi and Peters dance. Of course, they are obviosuly talented, but in comparison to Naomi and Peter I think they and their choreography are lacking something, and maybe it is just maturity.

[IceDanceSk8er]

The bottom line with L/T coming back is not for the sake of figure skating. They'll be able to sign a nice multi-year contract with COI if they win a 6th national championship. That is the only reason for their come back, if you want to call it that.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
The bottom line with L/T coming back is not for the sake of figure skating. They'll be able to sign a nice multi-year contract with COI if they win a 6th national championship. That is the only reason for their come back, if you want to call it that.

they could sign that contract now.

b/a would have to hand it to them on a silver platter for l/t to win this one.

so the motivation must lie elsewhere.

l/t can, together with b/a secure positions for worlds next year. there's a slim chance that belbin can negotiate citizenship in time for the olympics. the more usfsa/igor can prove a benefit to the usa, even if in such a "frivilous" occupation as elite ice dance, the more likely this will happen.

it is also great pr. shoo-ins are boring. competition between the "newcomers" and the current champs is good pr. this translates into good ratings. this translates into good contract negotiations. this translates into better income for usfsa which in turn translates into support for competitors.

so i think usfsa leaned on them (particularly naomi) real hard. they owe something to usfsa for the really serious financial support they (she) has received over the years. it's pay back time. even if they are skating into a long shot for the 6th title at best

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
The bottom line with L/T coming back is not for the sake of figure skating. They'll be able to sign a nice multi-year contract with COI if they win a 6th national championship. That is the only reason for their come back, if you want to call it that.

Looking forward to 2006, perhaps L/T are coming back at the request of the USFSA. Think about this, if we have two strong teams at Worlds this year, we'll get two at Worlds next year or possibly more if one team should make the podium. That gives us a better chance to send more teams to Torino.

I like both teams. Either could win. I'd like to see both teams skate well. Then I won't be disappointed with whichever one wins. Last year, Tanith and Ben lost...they beat themselves with their freeskate performance. I don't want to see anyone win that way.

I hope Tanith does get her citizenship resolved in time for the Olympics but she does not think it will happen. (See the USFSA article.)

[SkateGuard]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
The bottom line with L/T coming back is not for the sake of figure skating. They'll be able to sign a nice multi-year contract with COI if they win a 6th national championship. That is the only reason for their come back, if you want to call it that.

Well, considering that B/A have been offered a spot on the entire COI tour, that possibility may be moot....

Smiley, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :) Of the teams currently competing, B/A are the only team that really understands the ballroom fundamentals, IMO. But my opinion is based more on the OD. I didn't see an OD last year that better captured a waltz and a polka the way they did last year, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got some first ordinals with this year's OD.

But the Elvis number woke me up to their command of ballroom. Someone on Skatefans, a judge in fact, noted how well that program depicted the jive. I rewatched my tape and agreed. I thought it was significantly better than Gritschuk/Platov's jive in '94 (in terms of depicting a jive--it's obvious that B/A are not yet at the level of G/P as ice dancers).

As for B/A's line, extension, etc. I think we have to compare some of their skills to the top junior skaters (or at least dancers at their age level). It takes time to develop these skills, and for a young American team, I find them excellent. I think in 5 years, they will be much improved in that aspect. (In ballet, it takes years to get a natural proper posture; after 6 years, I had too much of a swayback to have the appearance of proper posture even though my body was in the proper positions. I would have had to practially wear a brace in order to be a professional dancer...it's a good thing that I wanted to be a chemist! :D )

Erin

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
my point was just that b/a's current presentation with this particular fd may not be "ideal" but as they become more comfortable with the highly technical steps, the highly creative and artistic side will return.
I enjoy watching both of these teams. But I too believe the problem with the B/A FD this season is far too many music edits for this length program. It is a problem with the very development & construction of this particular program (but notably something that could have been avoided with the proper consultation & a more proactive approach), not something that they will be able to overcome by simply becoming more comfortable with the steps.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by SkateGuard
Well, considering that B/A have been offered a spot on the entire COI tour, that possibility may be moot....

Smiley, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :) Of the teams currently competing, B/A are the only team that really understands the ballroom fundamentals, IMO. But my opinion is based more on the OD. I didn't see an OD last year that better captured a waltz and a polka the way they did last year, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got some first ordinals with this year's OD.

But the Elvis number woke me up to their command of ballroom. Someone on Skatefans, a judge in fact, noted how well that program depicted the jive. I rewatched my tape and agreed. I thought it was significantly better than Gritschuk/Platov's jive in '94 (in terms of depicting a jive--it's obvious that B/A are not yet at the level of G/P as ice dancers).

As for B/A's line, extension, etc. I think we have to compare some of their skills to the top junior skaters (or at least dancers at their age level). It takes time to develop these skills, and for a young American team, I find them excellent. I think in 5 years, they will be much improved in that aspect. (In ballet, it takes years to get a natural proper posture; after 6 years, I had too much of a swayback to have the appearance of proper posture even though my body was in the proper positions. I would have had to practially wear a brace in order to be a professional dancer...it's a good thing that I wanted to be a chemist! :D )

Erin

LOL a chemist is just as hard work as being a dancer I assume! I have to disagree about B/A's OD's though. Both N/K and D/S(fra) have superior OD's and G/G have a pretty darn good one as well (if only they could skate it clean...)so I don't think we'll being seeing any firsts from B/A in the OD, unless N/K (and possibly both D/S and G/G) have a flub. But it's all so hard to call with all these teams being so close. As for last year, I feel that much of their OD was just "whee look at me I can smile and make O faces!" The theme of memories of a grandball was supposed to portray a man picking up a girl at the ball. I didn't get that connection at all from B/A. But their polka section was very good compared to some of the other teams who just seemed to not feel it. I still say Winkler/Lohse had the best performed OD of last year, even if we didn't get to see it at worlds :( But I have to agree about the jive Ben really knows how to work the audience. ;)

[2footedquad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
[B] I have a problem with a skater or team - no matter who they are - that thinks they can just show up when dance teams have been working their butts off all season.

I don't understand your reasoning here. If Naomi and Peter show up poorly trained, then they won't do well. If they are well prepared, then they should place well. What does it matter that other teams have been working their butts off? Why shouldn't L/T think they can 'just show up'? As the reigning national champions, they have earned the same bye to Nationals as all other reigning champs, regardless of whether they choose to compete in the fall or not.

[WeBeEducated]

Originally posted by 2footedquad
[QUOTE]Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
[B] I have a problem with a skater or team - no matter who they are - that thinks they can just show up when dance teams have been working their butts off all season.

I don't understand your reasoning here. If Naomi and Peter show up poorly trained, then they won't do well. If they are well prepared, then they should place well. What does it matter that other teams have been working their butts off? Why shouldn't L/T think they can 'just show up'? As the reigning national champions, they have earned the same bye to Nationals as all other reigning champs, regardless of whether they choose to compete in the fall or not.
I agree with you. I dont get the reasoning behind the idea that a National Championship-winning , highly experienced team shouldnt choose to compete or change their mind about competing simply because other less successful teams are "working their butts off".
So what? So and so's little Novice team is working really hard so Naomi and Peter dont have the right to rely upon their years of hard work after a minor pause in training?
Even with the pause in training, Naomi and Peter will skate to a gold or silver finish at Nats this year; their only competition will be Tanith and Ben.
That says a great deal about their ability I think, with or without needing to continuously work their butts off!
I am hoping to see a great finish from Navarro/Shmalo too, who always have exciting, musical, difficult freedances.
If I could pick the podium it would be
Naomi/Peter
Tanith/Ben
Navarro/Shmalo
Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell

[Smiley0084]

Navarro/Shmalo have withdrawn!!! 8O :x :cry:

[BittyBug]

In terms of L&T's training, the only risk I see to them not training is if the judges place them based on their history rather than their actual performance at the competition. But if that's the case, blame lies with the judges, not Lang & Tchernychev.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by Smiley0084
Navarro/Shmalo have withdrawm!!! 8O :x :cry:

Anyone know why?

[??!!?]

Originally posted by BittyBug
In terms of L&T's training, the only risk I see to them not training is if the judges place them based on their history rather than their actual performance at the competition. But if that's the case, blame lies with the judges, not Lang & Tchernychev.

If the judges judge based off past experience, given the past year, and some thoughts on attitude and training, I'd tend to think they'd give it to B&A. I thought L&A gave competing up for good, were on top, and were satisfied with their success. I love L&T, and hope they can pull through this year, and have been able to train hard enough. B&A and L&T both have strengths and weaknesses. This should be an interesting Nationals, but I know who I am hoping for.