What the WSF has been up to lately...

[jcspkbfan]

From the official WSF website:

http://www.worldskating.org/news/isu-complaint-12dec2003.shtml

I wondered why the WSF has kept such a low profile since 2003 Worlds...I guess now we know the answer! :D

[dbny]

Whoopee!

[maruko]

I can't imagine there is any merit to this case. While Speedy is no angel, I don't believe it is wrong for him to protect the best interest of his organization. WSF afterall stated clearly they were trying to REPLACE ISU. So, what is wrong for Speedy to blacklist those who act AGAINST the best interest of ISU? This is his job! If the president doesn't do that, who does?

I'll be surprised if an anti-trust case is applicable to ISU which is a non-profit sports organization as oppose of a publicly held company.

Well, we live in a country where McDonald got sued for millions when its cosumers was stupid enough to place a coffee cup between her legs. Therefore, the craziest thing can happen. But I am certainly NOT on WSF side in this case. It is aganist their sneaky way to get some PR before they totally vanished.

[dbny]

Originally posted by maruko
I can't imagine there is any merit to this case.
No imagination required! The ISU has a stranglehold on international competitive figure skating.

Originally posted by maruko
It is aganist their sneaky way to get some PR before they totally vanished.

Sneaky way? Oh, you mean like judges covertly signaling other judges during a competition, or making deals before the competition. Oh no, wait a minute, that was the ISU.

Originally posted by maruko
Well, we live in a country where McDonald got sued for millions when its cosumers was stupid enough to place a coffee cup between her legs.

You are way off the mark comparing this lawsuit to the one against McDonald's, kind of like the ISU judging :lol:

If you read the text carefully, you will see that what the WSF is suing over has everything to do with profit, and the control of it:

"anticompetitive conduct designed to improperly maintain a monopoly over the sport of international figure skating and related markets by threatening to "black-list" or banish any person from the sport of international figure skating who provides support or assistance to the WSF"

[pairs_guy]

I agree with DBNY, it's one thing for the ISU to want to protect their organisation by not letting others agree with what WSF is doing. BUT he cannot be the only organisation to control Figure Skating, I just learned in economics you can't control a monopoly unless it was granted that you would be the only one in charge of it. I don't think the ISU has these grants. Plus I don't think they should, other organisation should be able to compete with the ISU, isn't in the best interest of fans, skaters and coaches to have the best figure skating organisation. I think it would be good to have more then one, if one fails or screws up(Salt Lake City), we would be able to fall back on the other one. The ISU never really fixed any major problems all they ever did was cover them up. This new judging system is O.K. but judges are still not accounting for, their still "hidden". The problem was never the judging system but the judges itself. You can tell when a judge has favortism, as soon as you see a skater/team with ordinals all like 5 or 6 then you see they have a first, the judge that gave them that mark should no have to state why he/she gave them that ordinal. Sure you can argue that sometimes that the top 5 are all close, but if you have a skater/team that has all 5's then gets one first place, then that judge isn't judging correctly. They should be given the boot.

Maybe instead of just having Otavio running the show they should have a team of leaders from each of the continents. Have 5 people all share the resposibilities, 5 heads are better then none. :D

just myo

[IceDanceSk8er]

The WSF is still around? Amazing! What a useless way to spend one's time.

[maruko]

[B]No imagination required! The ISU has a stranglehold on international competitive figure skating.


Why is that a problem? The ISU has existed for nearly 100 years. Skaters wants to compete under ISU because of its long history and prestige. Champions of ISU competitions receive high recognitions because they compete under one well-established organization whose rules and regulations are governed by a congress that has international representations.

Competitive skating won't be respected much if there is not an "offical" governing body that establishes all its rules and requires its members to follow them. If, for example, say ISU and WSF each has its won World Championship, I can safely bet the champions come out of them won't be as worthy. In other words, if there is not one offical world championship, the value of winning will be cheapen. If, for example, Michelle wins the one under ISU and Sasha wins the one under WSF, then who should we regarded as the Ladies World Champions of that year? There should be only one Ladies World Champions each year and that is why it is such a big deal for winning that one prestigous championship.




Sneaky way? Oh, you mean like judges covertly signaling other judges during a competition, or making deals before the competition. Oh no, wait a minute, that was the ISU.


Yes, I said it is sneaky and I'll say it again. WSF's way of getting PR is as sneaky as can be. After USFSA and the IOC openly rejected them, all they can think of is to sue and trash ISU. The WSF sure knows how to time their tactics to get attention. They kept quiet all along and had to send out their press release only days before GPF, when the GPF happens to be on US soil.

I don't know why you are mixing the two issues up. By the way, "judges covertly signaling other judges during a competition" are individual judges' problems, they are not the problem of ISU itself. Such behavior are not endored by the ISU. ISU has clearly established rules to disclipline/suspend judges of such behavoir as we have seen in the past/


You are way off the mark comparing this lawsuit to the one against McDonald's, kind of like the ISU judging :lol:


No, I was not off the mark. If you care to read, it was my way to express how the strangest thing can happen in the court in America. I did not say the McDonald case and the WSF are equal in content.



"anticompetitive conduct designed to improperly maintain a monopoly over the sport of international figure skating and related markets by threatening to "black-list" or banish any person from the sport of international figure skating who provides support or assistance to the WSF"


What is ""black-list" or banish any person from the sport of international figure skating"? The ISU did threaten to discliple or kick out WSF supporters from their own organization - the ISU. What is wrong with that? Any organizatio will do the same for those memeber who act against their won interest. It just so happen the ISU is the only skating organization IOC recognizes. So if you are out of ISU, you are out of so-called "international figure skating". It is not ISU's fault for being the only one that IOC recognizes.

Should Speedy as the president of ISU keep quiet when members of his organization are clearly acting AGAINST ISU's best interest? Secretly or opening joining WSF, whose mission is to replace the ISU, is most obviously an act that directly contradicts ISU's interest. Imagine Company A and Company B are direct competitors and you are an employee of Company A. If you secretly work for Company B on a business deal, I can bet your boss will fire you immediately. Probably no US court can save you. Can anyone blame your boss? I guess not.

[maruko]

Originally posted by pairs_guy
[B]I agree with DBNY, it's one thing for the ISU to want to protect their organisation by not letting others agree with what WSF is doing. BUT he cannot be the only organisation to control Figure Skating, I just learned in economics you can't control a monopoly unless it was granted that you would be the only one in charge of it.


It comes down to one thing. What kind of "figure skating" you meant ISU is controling. If you are talking about skating events, there are tons of skating events in American not sanctioned or sponsored by the ISU. ISU certainly don't control or even care for those events. What ISU control over is skating within their own premise. It just so happens those are the events that lead to the Olympics.

Well, maybe you should direct your question to Dr. Rogg the IOC president. The case is exactly as what you learn in economics. It really was GRANTED that ISU is the only skating organization recognized by the ISU. Should WSF sue Dr. Rogg instead since he is the one who does not allow a competition nature of skating organizations in the Olympics?



The ISU never really fixed any major problems all they ever did was cover them up. This new judging system is O.K. but judges are still not accounting for, their still "hidden". The problem was never the judging system but the judges itself. You can tell when a judge has favortism, ....


I think the Code of Point system is a major improvement in terms of forcing judges to judge what they see. Too bad a lot of people cry "cr*p" before even care to learn about it. There, in fact, is a review process in place so outragous results will be reviewed.
Judges are humans. Each human sees things different. As long as figure skating is a judged sports, you will always have a problem to come to total agreement. Even WSF won't be able to change this very fact. That is why you need nine judges instead of one.



Maybe instead of just having Otavio running the show they should have a team of leaders from each of the continents. Have 5 people all share the resposibilities, 5 heads are better then none. :D


Each organization must have one leader. Should we invite Al Gore and 3 other guys to work side by side with Geroge W. Bush and share responsibilities since 5 heads are better than one?

Another thing, WSF is a self-proclaim "honest, accountable" organization. Why should we immediately jump on their boat to support them? Do they have international representations other than those of US and Canada? Given that, why should be believe they are not biased against skaters who are not from North America. How do we know their judges are all clean? We don't know 'cos WSF has not proven they can do a better job than ISU.

[dbny]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
The WSF is still around? Amazing! What a useless way to spend one's time.

And what a rude way to say you disagree!

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by dbny
And what a rude way to say you disagree!

Thank you. I actually thought I was being complimentary ;) But I do apologize to you dbny. It must be rough to suddenly realize you're apart of something that no one takes seriously.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
Thank you. I actually thought I was being complimentary ;) But I do apologize to you dbny. It must be rough to suddenly realize you're apart of something that no one takes seriously.

Well, of course you weren't, and knew so before posting (and reposting, which makes you appear more of an arse).

The whole area of "secret judging" is what bothers me. If the various national federations are so strong that they can influence an individual (or several) judges' scoring, is that not a bad thing?

If an individual judge is not confident enough (for any reason) to stand by and justify his/her marks in any phase of a competition openly, is that not a bad thing?

If the public (which, through sponsors and/or their own attendance at ISU events, provide the cash flow to make such events possible in public) can't rely on fairness and openness in judging to be able to see the truth behind individual judges' scores (when, for many years, they have been able to do so), is that not a bad thing?

[IceDanceSk8er]

WSF's behavior speaks for itself. And how do you argue with the skaters who are willing to give the new system a try? Who see benefit in CoP? I guess they're arse's too? What has the WSF offered? Nothing! Only criticism. The WSF is a dangerous organization, and if you can't see that, then you are a simple fool.

The skater's I have spoken to who have competed under CoP see benefit in this new judging system, and think it has the potential of making them better skaters - making their programs tighter. And they are willing to give it a try. The ISU will evaluate CoP after the season and see where the system needs improving. It's not perfect and makes no claims to be perfect.

The point is no one takes the WSF seriously, unless you're going to point to the show skaters who no longer compete in ISU events.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
WSF's behavior speaks for itself. And how do you argue with the skaters who are willing to give the new system a try? Who see benefit in CoP? I guess they're arse's too? What has the WSF offered? Nothing! Only criticism. The WSF is a dangerous organization, and if you can't see that, then you are a simple fool.

The skater's I have spoken to who have competed under CoP see benefit in this new judging system, and think it has the potential of making them better skaters - making their programs tighter. And they are willing to give it a try. The ISU will evaluate CoP after the season and see where the system needs improving. It's not perfect and makes no claims to be perfect.

The point is no one takes the WSF seriously, unless you're going to point to the show skaters who no longer compete in ISU events.


If it has no power, whom is it dangerous to? On the contrary, specific allegations are being made in the lawsuit, and the ISU will have to specifically defend against each of them.

You haven't addressed the question of holding individual judges immediately and publicly accountable for the scores they give under CoP - the scores may not be included in the final tabulation of scoring through some random choice, or excluded (regardless of accuracy) through elimination of high/low scores (after the random exclusion of other judges). That system is objectionable to me as to accuracy of overall judging and to fairness to the skaters who are being judged in such a system - YMM (and, no doubt W)V.

[what?meworry?]

you're overlooking that this new judging system actually seems to be working.

all judges scoring is in fact recorded and there is a review process. but not as you put it, publicly and immediately.

usfsa doesn't review their judges publicly and immediately, but they are required to write a justification for their scoring if it exceeds certain parameters (from the median). but that sure as heck doesn't stop them from obviously excessive overscoring of territorial favourites and dumping the strong competitor's scores to assure their favourite a higher position. i see it often, even at nationals.

and, i've certainly never heard of any judge i've observed indulge in this practice being sanctioned for it!

a lot of information about the new system is on the isu website:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-136494-137802-nav-list,00.html

scroll down to the bottom, start clicking and reading. it's changed around a lot, but i'm sure the information about keeping track of judges' scoring and evaluating them is still in there somewhere!

as for the wsf, they and the skaters who first cried "foul" and brought the scandal to light served a good purpose.

but now the observable results of this new system indicate that it is working. and now, unfortunately, the wsf are looking more like the black knight in that old "monty python" bit who shouts insults and threatens bodily harm to the challenger while each limb is lost until he's just a hopping torso ineffectually threatening to butt his enemy to death with his head. why don't they just graciously concede to some degree that the new scoring has improved the judging---especially for dance.

also, consider this---if you read the usfsa article quoting b/a

http://www.usfsa.org/events_results/results/200304/gpfinal/index.htm

you'll notice some reference to factual information about difficulty levels in footwork that the dance teams can actually understand and choreograph accordingly. i think that is a great improvement over the old system---the dancers actually know what they're being judged on!

i'd love to see usfsa adopt this scoring system as soon as the top national judges can be properly trained in it!

[jcspkbfan]

Well, here's Cinquanta's rebuttal:

http://espn.go.com/oly/news/2003/1213/1685664.html

And here's another article with quotes from Cinquanta and Michael Weiss (mainly about COP and doesn't mention the WSF lawsuit at all):

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/348/sports/System_lacks_accountability+.shtml

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by valuvsmk
If it has no power, whom is it dangerous to? On the contrary, specific allegations are being made in the lawsuit, and the ISU will have to specifically defend against each of them.
Wasteful lawsuits can result in lack of resources for skaters & federations, whether one disagrees with every single action by Cinquanta & the ISU or not. My guess is WSF will alienate plenty more people in the skating community with this. I hope WSF will get the hefty bill for the defense's legal fees & court costs when all is said & done.

All one needs to do is read the background on their legal firm, whose business is primarily class action, to see the writing on the wall about this one. Class action lawyers are not even held in very high esteem by significant numbers of their own profession, much less the general public.

[dbny]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
The WSF is a dangerous organization, and if you can't see that, then you are a simple fool.

You do not seem to be able to post without being insulting. You may think that makes you look smart, but it only makes you look rude and lacking in verbal skills.

BTW, the CoP certainly does not seem to be effective in Dance. There is still something very wrong with the judging there, and now, thanks to secrecy, we don't even know who is responsible.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by dbny
You do not seem to be able to post without being insulting. You may think that makes you look smart, but it only makes you look rude and lacking in verbal skills.BTW, the CoP certainly does not seem to be effective in Dance. There is still something very wrong with the judging there, and now, thanks to secrecy, we don't even know who is responsible.

I apologize if my remarks have offended you.

I agree with you about CoP and dance. This is a problem, but dance has always had a judging problem, whether it's with OBO or CoP. IMO, ice dance is the most difficult discipline to judge, and I personally believe that ISU dance judges are destroying this discipline.

CoP is working, but like anything new, it'll take some time for it to be perfected. Everyone is aware of this fact, but the important thing is not whether "we" like it, it's the skaters. The skaters, not the fans or people who post on this board, define the sport. So far, a majority of the competitors like the new system, see benefit in CoP, and are willing to give it a try. It will be interesting to see what changes are made to CoP next summer at the ISU Congress.

Secrecy is an issue to some; others could care less. I haven't heard any of the skaters complain about it; I'm sure someone has but I haven't seen it. I know that coaches are not particularly fond of this because it prevents them from talking to a specific judge (who gave their skater low marks) after a competition and hearing their critique. But the general idea behind CoP is to give skaters a clear picture of the technical and artistic elements that need improving and/or polishing.

Now, the WSF.

I personally believe that the WSF is a negative force in figure skating just by it's actions. Their press conference at Worlds - an event for skaters - didn't serve the best interests of figure skating and figure skaters. They used Worlds as their podium and detracted from an event that they supposedly are trying to improve. As Skatewind pointed out, the current lawsuit is wasteful. Whom does this lawsuit serve? Certainly not the skaters or figure skating. To me, it's a rather expensive commercial for the WSF who has had to sit by and watch CoP in action and listen to skaters praise the new system. The WSF sees it's need and purpose slowly vanishing and becoming meaningless.

[sonora]

Three cheers for the WSF, who are brave enough to Speak Truth to Power.

I believe their law firm is av rated with Martindale Hubbell, which means other lawyers find them competent and ethical to the highest degree.

[Skatewind]

Interesting article about a Milberg Weiss case:

Judge Compares Milberg Weiss Case to Squeegee Man (http://www.nylawyer.com/news/02/04/041802e.html)

There's also the Titan International lawsuit that was interesting.

[tangos]

I do not think having more than one organization in an interest area is unreasonable. Limiting individuals right to belong to more than one, is unreasonable. Time will tell if there is a need or a sufficient following to justify the existence of various groups.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by maruko
Well, we live in a country where McDonald got sued for millions when its cosumers was stupid enough to place a coffee cup between her legs.

While I basically agree with you in principle, I must say that this line gave me pause and made rethink my position.

The McDonald's coffee case, so maligned by so many, was an instance in which the plaintiff had a GREAT case; McDonald's was absolutely in the wrong and had every reason to know it was in the wrong. Even the judge who reduced the jury award ripped McDonald's to shreds over the coffee issue. When you say something like the problem was that a consumer was stupid enough to put coffee between her knees, it demonstrates that you know very little about the case, yet have made a judgment anyway.

So perhaps I am also leaping to false conclusions when I say that I think this case looks like a manipulation of the system. Maybe I need to wait and see what the actual facts of the case are.

[dbny]

Originally posted by Rachel
The McDonald's coffee case, so maligned by so many, was an instance in which the plaintiff had a GREAT case; McDonald's was absolutely in the wrong and had every reason to know it was in the wrong. Even the judge who reduced the jury award ripped McDonald's to shreds over the coffee issue. When you say something like the problem was that a consumer was stupid enough to put coffee between her knees, it demonstrates that you know very little about the case, yet have made a judgment anyway.

Thank you for clarifying that. I also knew the McDonald's case had merit, but didn't want to detract from the point I was trying to make. The conclusion you drew needed to be said, IMO.

[pairs_guy]

Originally posted by maruko
...The case is exactly as what you learn in economics. It really was GRANTED that ISU is the only skating organization recognized by the ISU....

I only had said "I THOUGHT", I wasn't sure if they had the grants or not, but thanks for clearing that up maruko. :)

[pairs_guy]

Originally posted by dbny
You do not seem to be able to post without being insulting. You may think that makes you look smart, but it only makes you look rude and lacking in verbal skills.

BTW, the CoP certainly does not seem to be effective in Dance. There is still something very wrong with the judging there, and now, thanks to secrecy, we don't even know who is responsible.

I agree with dbny, maybe you should find another way of looking smart cause it isn't working.....sorry I shouldn't steep to your level, but anyways...

What was wrong with the judging of dance with the CoP?? I liked it, you saw some upsets, and there was some movement aswell. You even saw a team that had really strong difficulty fall and still manage to come 2nd(Dubreuil/Lauzon CAN) because their program was alot better then the other teams, under the 6.0 system they would have dropped out of the medals. I know some can argue I'm only agreeing because I'm "Canadian" but common, you can't tell me this system works alot better for dance then the old one.

[gandalf]

Originally posted by maruko
The ISU has existed for nearly 100 years. Skaters wants to compete under ISU because of its long history and prestige.

Just to clarify, skaters do not compete under the ISU because of its history and tradition. They compete under the ISU because it's their only chance to get to the Olys.

I think the lawsuit by the WSF will be interesting. Anything that forces the ISU to clean up its act is a good thing, IMO.

I agree that there are problems with COP and dance. Just because there have been some surprising results that we never would have seen under the 6.0 system doesn't mean COP is working.

[tangos]

What CoP mprovements should be made for dance?

[sonora]

Well, first of all, for dance and for all disciplines the judging should NOT be anonymous.

Dance needs such an overhaul anyway-the ISU has really ruined it as a sport with their ridiculous requirements.

I haven't seen the Grand Prix events, and am waiting for an update from a knowledgeable source who was there.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by sonora
Well, first of all, for dance and for all disciplines the judging should NOT be anonymous.

Dance needs such an overhaul anyway-the ISU has really ruined it as a sport with their ridiculous requirements.

I haven't seen the Grand Prix events, and am waiting for an update from a knowledgeable source who was there.

if the judges are not identified on the spot, the theory is, they are able to judge without pressure. their scoring is recorded, however, for analysis and review later.

i would think, and have read comments to this effect, that having specific elements identified and difficulty levels identified actually provides positive, concrete and valid basis to plan choreography and standards for judging. before it was so generalized anyone could score any team anyway they please and find some way to justify it.

now i believe we are seeing content in the skating and better judging from the cop system. especially in dance. finally there is movement. previously, international dance seemed only to be a bargaining chip for the other disciplines. the dancers deserve this improved, content-rich and clear "difficulty" rating. we're finally seeing movement in positions based on how teams actually skated.

[sonora]

If the judges can't stand the pressure they should not be officials in high level competition. Anonymous judging is trouble.

And, I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Code of Points is a hideaway for the weak judges from other countries who do not have figure skating backgrounds and do not undergo the training and scrutiny USFSA judges must have. Mnay of these judges particularly in the Eastern bloc received their judging appointments as politcal perks, not because they know anything about skating.

Thus, their willingness to broker deals re the results.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
if the judges are not identified on the spot, the theory is, they are able to judge without pressure. their scoring is recorded, however, for analysis and review later.

i would think, and have read comments to this effect, that having specific elements identified and difficulty levels identified actually provides positive, concrete and valid basis to plan choreography and standards for judging. before it was so generalized anyone could score any team anyway they please and find some way to justify it.

now i believe we are seeing content in the skating and better judging from the cop system. especially in dance. finally there is movement. previously, international dance seemed only to be a bargaining chip for the other disciplines. the dancers deserve this improved, content-rich and clear "difficulty" rating. we're finally seeing movement in positions based on how teams actually skated.

You stated this so perfectly! At least there's a few people here who seem to get it. Thank you for such an apt reply.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by sonora
If the judges can't stand the pressure they should not be officials in high level competition. Anonymous judging is trouble.

And, I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Code of Points is a hideaway for the weak judges from other countries who do not have figure skating backgrounds and do not undergo the training and scrutiny USFSA judges must have. Mnay of these judges particularly in the Eastern bloc received their judging appointments as politcal perks, not because they know anything about skating.

Thus, their willingness to broker deals re the results.

Did you get that from a tabloid paper? Unbelievable!

[Isk8NYC]

I've read about both sides of the ISU / WSF argument, not on Boards such as this, but in actual documents issued by the organizations and media outlets. I have to say that I find the ISU and its actions disturbing for a few reasons:

1) The anonymous judging system removes the judges from public eye. That's it. It doesn't add responsibility since only the ISU knows who voted for what. Based on their past slow/poor response to criticisms, I sincerely doubt that they will ever review or discipline after the fact. They're too concerned about bad press.

2) I have an issue with a major, world-wide organization representing two radically different sports. The ISU is not only the governing body of figure skating, it also governs speed skating, a much different sport. I would think, given the tremendous amounts of attention and money derived from the varied Figure Skating disciplines, the sport should have its own managing organization. Speed skating's major concern is performance enhancements, not level of difficulty and presentation.

3) Finally, I have to say that the reaction of the ISU in attempting to intimidate anyone associated with the WSF, demonstrates their fear of a rival. The ISU is scared of the WSF taking over their role, which is why their response was so vehement.

Now to talk about the WSF. It seems to be mainly a US-led coalition, which doesn't support the "World" part of their name. Their solution to the judging issue is to return to the pre-1998 system, adding accountability and integrity.

I support the ideals of the WSF and I hope they succeed in bringing positive change to the world of Figure Skating. I don't see the organization doing any harm. If they wrest control from the ISU, great. If they just make the ISU stop timing speedskating long enough to realize that change is needed, great.

One last note: I would appreciate it if the posters on this board learn to "disagree agreeably." You don't have to agree with anyone -- your opinion is just as right as the next person's. I find it distasteful to read some of these entries that contain immature or volatile responses. This board will die without more than one contributor. Respectful responses go a long way.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by Isk8NYC
...Respectful responses go a long way.

Intelligent responses also help too, just like the one you made.

[loveskating]

I'd sure like to know how a not-for-profit, voluntary, international association can be sued under UNITED STATES anti-trust law...can someone cite some cases?

Also, what do RULES OF MEMBERSHIP have to do with trade in commodities or intellectual property? Only a very, very remote nexus could be established, which, if allowed, would destroy a lot of stuff, seems to me...as in, like, the AMA could no longer tell its members not to join an association of acupuncturists, w/o violating some anti-trust law? Not likely, I think, for a court to make such a decision which would have much broader implications? It like saying, well, if you are not in the AMA, you cannot be a doctor...of course you CAN, theoretically, but practically you cannot...that's more like the ISU...you are free to join any organization you like, but you are not free to be in both at the same time...how could the professions in the USA withstand such a court decision? I think not.

Would like to know how the Southern District of New York has jurisdiction? Its a US Federal court, it does not have internationl jurisdiction, any more than it has jurisdiction over the Eastern District of New York!!!!

In the Southern District, they do refuse complaints on the basis of the law...and they do sanction attorneys for frivolous law suits, including after accepting complaints.

[pairs_guy]

Originally posted by sonora
And, I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Code of Points is a hideaway for the weak judges from other countries who do not have figure skating backgrounds and do not undergo the training and scrutiny USFSA judges must have. Mnay of these judges particularly in the Eastern bloc received their judging appointments as politcal perks, not because they know anything about skating.

So your saying if a judge has not gone thru the "training and scrutiny" that the USFSA judges have gone thru they shouldn't be judging?? Not all countries have these problems, there are only a few. Plus how many times does that judges marks GREATLY affect the results?? I know there were problems with the accountibility with teh 6.0 system, but usually if a judge didn't go thru training and tried to hold their country's team up in the standings it didn't work because the other 6 or 8 judges pretty much placed the team/skater at a certain result that ONE judge doesn't affect the result. Not everything revolves around the US. :roll:

[sonora]

Many international judges are underqualified for the job. They cannot recognize jumps. The spotters under the code of points provide a prop fpr these people.

It is turning International skating into a version of ISI skating, where the referee calls out each element as it is performed.

I don't need to get this from a tabloid. I don't read tabloids.

Go to any competition with big groups. Make yourself a judging sheet. Try to track everything everyone in a big group, like Intermediate Ladies, is doing.

We draw our judges from a huge pool here. Only the experienced and excellent make it to the International and World level. Other countries don't have that luxury or that training.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by sonora
We draw our judges from a huge pool here. Only the experienced and excellent make it to the International and World level. Other countries don't have that luxury or that training.

Canada and the United States have the best trained judges in figure skating. Period. Compare the standards for receiving an appointment with federations of other countries. I think the average skating fan would be amazed by the amount of education that Skate Canada and U.S. Figure Skating requires of their judges.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
Canada and the United States have the best trained judges in figure skating. Period. Compare the standards for receiving an appointment with federations of other countries. I think the average skating fan would be amazed by the amount of education that Skate Canada and U.S. Figure Skating requires of their judges.

i respectfully disagree about the "best trained" judged thing.
they are knowledgeable in the "old way" as is evidenced by the wild fluctuations of scoring at regionals and sectionals. if they don't know who is "supposed" to be first, second, etc. (that is "protocol judging") they have demonstrated that they have no clue about how to judge teams. the ordinals are wildly divided among the "secondary" teams. go look at the records for our (usa) regionals and sectionals, especially for the lower levels.

also, with just a precursory look, i find that the judging for the nacs' junior component has borne little relation to the international judging at the jgps.

i shall duck and run now.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
i respectfully disagree about the "best trained" judged thing.
they are knowledgeable in the "old way" as is evidenced by the wild fluctuations of scoring at regionals and sectionals. if they don't know who is "supposed" to be first, second, etc. (that is "protocol judging") they have demonstrated that they have no clue about how to judge teams. the ordinals are wildly divided among the "secondary" teams. go look at the records for our (usa) regionals and sectionals, especially for the lower levels.

I did look at the records, more importantly, look who the judges were, then pull out your US Figure Skating Directory and examine the competition appointments some of these judges. LOC's are notorious for cutting corners and bringing in judges who have more experience judging Singles/Pairs than dance. It's more cost effective to bring in a competition judge for Int, Juv, and Nov events who can judge mutliple events rather than someone who can only judge one discipline. US Figure Skating is quite aware of this problem.

[Isk8NYC]

Originally posted by loveskating
I'd sure like to know how a not-for-profit, voluntary, international association can be sued under UNITED STATES anti-trust law...can someone cite some cases?

I guess no one can give you specific examples since I haven't seen any replies. You may find out something related to this case if you check out some of the recent suits against Middle-Eastern/Muslim charity organizations accused of funnelling monies to terrorists. But, that's not anti-trust. Microsoft was anti-trust. Hmmm, I think that only a very knowledgeable lawyers could answer your question specifically.

Since I'm familiar with not-for-profits (NFP), I'll take an amateur stab at your questions. The ISU is a registered NFP entity here in the US. Given the long history of skating in NYC, (Skating Club of NY, anyone?) they may even have "incorporated" here in the city.

A NFP organization's activities and fundraising efforts are reported to the Federal Government at least annually. The monies received from the various shows and competitions aren't being sent to a "shell" company without a US presence. They have to file their federal paperwork each year, accounting for revenue and expenses, just as for-profits file tax returns. That also includes the small income that Speedskating brings to their organization.

Since they are a tax entity in the US, that's one reason they are being sued in US Federal courts. The other is that US courts allow anyone to attempt to sue anyone else for any reason. The court system will, as you pointed out, sort out the frivolous suits. The only other reason I can think of goes back to my concern about the lack of "worldly presence" in the WSF. It is obviously supported more strongly here in the US than anywhere else. That may be a factor of the strength and organization of US skating. (In general, not necessarily the USFSA.)

Anti-trust suits are related to preventing free trade and market entry. In this case, the WSF accuses the ISU of attempting to intimidate WSF supporters through blackballing and expulsion. If the ISU had simply said "Yes, we welcome everyone's input and suggestions, competition and fresh ideas are wonderful.", there wouldn't be a lawsuit. The ISU didn't take that high road, and now the WSF decided to pursue their case through the courts.

Let us know if any lawyers answer your questions.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Isk8NYC
Now to talk about the WSF. It seems to be mainly a US-led coalition, which doesn't support the "World" part of their name. Their solution to the judging issue is to return to the pre-1998 system, adding accountability and integrity.

i might partially agree with some of your commentary about the problems wsf brought out but after seeing the new system in action, i think returning to the "old way" with a few tweeked changes would be just awful - especially for dance. just look at some of the judging details in our own regionals, and sectionals, and nationals. the numbers are wildly different after the first few skaters that the judges "know" "should" place. at least the cop is a serious, complex and specifically quantified system.


Originally posted by Isk8NYC
...I would appreciate it if the posters on this board learn to "disagree agreeably." You don't have to agree with anyone -- your opinion is just as right as the next person's. I find it distasteful to read some of these entries that contain immature or volatile responses. This board will die without more than one contributor. Respectful responses go a long way.

but (within reason, of course) it's so much more fun to be able to insert a bit of wit and sardonic humor, like some of the late night talk shows or snl. otherwise it's boring - boring - boring.

it is more likely to die of boredoom if total, rigid perfect "politeness" is enforced. of course, there are limits and some have crossed the line on some threads. but a lot of the old pseuds whose posts were pretty funny are gone. and this board has gotten too quiet of late.

(edited to add) for example,

ADMIN from HELL
Satan's best friend-not yours, you pain in my ***
Registered: Dec 2003
Location: amidst the burning flames of rage (and occasional desire)
posts: 2

is a nice, oops - wrong word, "amusing," (pseudo-)disciplinarian on a board known for an "expanded" sense of humor.

by the way, this board has loosened up quite a bit recently. more of us have been able to express ourselves more freely (within reason, of course.)



(and please note that i have finally figured out how to comment in a neat and orderly fashion dividing multiple quotes.)

[what?meworry?]

stats are very useful. i love stats. i put up stats everytime i intro'd each jgp, they are an important part of the total picture of any judging situation.

i just surf'd into this article by sandra loosemore. needless to say i haven't digested the data, so will not comment further.

however, i thought i'd share and see what you guys think of this statistical analysis. superficially, i'm not sure this relates to my earlier comments about cop providing skaters and coaches concrete requirements to work with, but here it is:

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/articles/cop-components.shtml

have fun!

edited to add a nice little tutorial:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3514

further edited to add the isu press release with some quotes that do relate to my earlier commentary about the new system offering concrete requirements for coaches and skaters to work with:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-145622-162838-50604-0-file,00.pdf

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Isk8NYC

Anti-trust suits are related to preventing free trade and market entry. In this case, the WSF accuses the ISU of attempting to intimidate WSF supporters through blackballing and expulsion.

Let us know if any lawyers answer your questions.

I'd love to see the complaint...is it posted anywhere?

I got an answer on jurisdiction...all that is required is that members of the ISU and WSF live in the area of the Southern District's jurisdiction...but even with international corporations, any JUDGMENT is only enforced in the USA...otherwise, there is little international law...with corporations, they have to go to the treaty tribunals, like the NAFTA tribunal. Therefore, even if WSF won, what would it in fact win?

On your quote above, I suspect this does not apply to a voluntary associaton, not-for-profit...won't any court be very reluctant to interfrere with membership standards for any voluntary association, which is ultimately what is at stake? Isn't the AMA, for instance, free to not allow its members to join, say, "Doctors for Faith Healing"? Would that not, in the AMA's view, affect the quality of its membership standards?

I suspect that those "blackballed" and "expelled" are not skaters, rather they are former USFSA salaried professioanls (because I see that various professional skaters who initially supported the WSF are all over television skating)...and I think that a Trust court would be very reluctant to enter into what is in fact employment law...or aid a "fishing expedition."

What do you think would happen if you won, if the court did not allow the ISU to sanction any members who joined the WSF...what good would that do you?

In order to "win" you would STILL have to "win over" at least the Russian, German, French, Chinese, and Canadian Federations, OR split skaters off from them...and I don't believe you can do either, its far more likely you will just end up splitting skating internationally, with Europe, Russia, China forming one federation, and the USA/Canada forming another (and I'm not sure about Canada!!).

I've been reading that attendance at figure skating events is way up in Russia...because the entire Russian people were outraged and felt humiliated by what happened at SLC...that skating people are actually making a lot of money now in Russia. Do you think they would trust YOU, or do you care? Do you think that the French Federation would join YOU?

In short what is your goal in the REAL world; what is your analysis?

[dr.frog]

Originally posted by loveskating
I'd love to see the complaint...is it posted anywhere?

Yes, it is on the WSF website.

http://www.worldskating.org/

I think a lot of people's questions about what the suit is about, why it was filed in this particular jurisdiction, etc would be answered if they actually read the complaint.

[loveskating]

Thanks. I read it. The complaint is much too broad, I think, most of this stuff will be legally irrelevant.

For those who might wish to follow any orders this case: (courts have hearings, usually, well prior to any trial...there are depositions, and gathering and submission of evidence, under strict rules of evidence for both sides... largely based on interrogatories, depositions, and the judge sets the rules for all this, and issues orders. It is fundamentally up to the judge whether a case even goes to trial...either plaintiff or defendant can file a summary judgment motion if there are no triable, legal issues of fact.)

The Southern District of New York
http://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/


Judge Sprizzo


Concise on the Sherman Anti-Trust Act
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch1.html

More concise still
http://www.ftc.gov/bc/compguide/antitrst.htm

Seeking a monopoly on trade, or seeking membership standards?