Who should have won the Winter Challenge?

[alexeiluvr]

I voted for Shizuka Arakawa- she had the strongest program of all the ladies, though none skated well.

[HSF]

Since I haven't seen the competition, I have nothing but the judges marks posted on the USFSA site to go on. According to those marks, MK was the winner.

I guess you are implying MK was "held up" by the judges? I'll have to wait until the competition airs on TV on the 13th to make that call.

I'll vote later. :-)

[alexeiluvr]

Michelle Kwan was totally held up by the judges!!! She always is!!! It totally makes me mad!!!

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by HSF
I guess you are implying MK was "held up" by the judges?

I do think MK was held up by the judges, although it was very close. They took a very long time to put up Arakawa's marks, and I suspect, since the two ladies were so very close, that the judges were reluctant to unseat the queen of figure skating on her home turf, if you know what I mean.

Arakawa had a more techncally difficult program - if she had not popped those two jumps, I think she definately would have won. Arakawa also had very nice presentation - maybe not the star quality of MK, but not so poor that it warrented her being placed below MK. I wonder what the Russian judge saw - wasn't watching the same skating that I was :?? .

PS - I think under CoP, Arakawa would definitely have won.

[candace]

I think that Shizuka should have won. She had the best skate of all the ladies. If you could have sean Mr. Callaghan's face when the mark's came up. MK always get's held up by the judges. But every buddy love MK......

[icekat]

I didn't see the competition, but until someone comes along and skates better and then some, a long-standing champion usually does get held up by the judges, not just Michelle. As much as we would like to think everything is done on the ice, judges are human, and may sometimes hold a high standard for any challenger ready to dethrone a long time champion. We all know how good Michelle can be, and when there is a splat fest like what occurred recently, even judges probably get disgusted. New champions prove themselves by having the jumps and technical stuff, but long time champs keep their postion by their mere presence along with artistry and just sheer quality of skating.:)

[PaulWyliefan]

That's true, icekat. Shizuka skates well, but I don't think she has the polish or the overall quality of either Michelle or Sasha, at least not yet. From what I've heard so far, it sounds to me like the results were fair. But like everyone else, I'll actually have to see the competition before passing judgment!

[Kemy]

alexeiluvr...have you watched the competition already?

[icyboid]

I think Michelle was held up as well, but far from how much Sasha was held up that night. She should have been deep in fifth IMHO.

[alexeiluvr]

Yes, I saw it. Why???

[shadymc]

Arakawa had two popped jumps compared to Michelle doubling a jump and falling on a triple. I thought a pop was worse than doubling or falling in the 6.0 system. I know most skaters say they would rather fall than pop. In COP, Michelle would have been given credit for the double and credit for the jump she fell on, no? What credit would be given to a popped jump? I don't see how Arakawa won based on this as criteria.

ETA--I looked again at the descriptions of the competition. Arakawa had one extra triple, including a combo. She beat Michelle on the technical score. Michelle was said to be a lot faster, and have better spins and spirals. So I can see Michelle winning here.

OTOH, it appears that the one really held up was Sasha. Normally, she can do a few less triples than everyone else and still win, but it sounds as though this was her worst performance ever. The ice was in really terrible condition. It does sound as though she should have been lower in the standings.

[bunghodog]

I have not seen the competition so I don't know, but I am sure Michelle was held up as usual.

:lol:

[loveskating]

MK doubled her first lutz, which meant she did not do a lutz combo...then she fell on her second lutz; had a shaky landing on her 2 axel; had no comibination at all; you can't just count up the jumps, you have to rank them, jumps ranked 3 lutz, 3 flip, 3 loop, 3 sal, 3 toe loop, 2 axel.

In short, Arakawa popped an axel, and popped her second 3 lutz when kwan did not have a lutz at all, or only a double one by any stretch of the imagination, so a badly landed 2 axel + a double lutz of very low quality does not beat a very high quality 3 lutz/2 toe loop!

On presentation, Kwan is generally more polished, but not on this day...only at the very end did she look fluid and got some speed and was relaxed...not a great performance by a long shot.

Arakawa's tech marks were absurdly low, and Kwan did not win that competition on the ice, she won it somewhere else. Its pathetic. I hate seeing her like this.

Sasha might have been held up...but at least Sasha has known +2s and +3s on numerous elements besides the jumps.

And gawd, I can't believe how Terry and Peggy were talking about Kwan and all this other stuff while A.P. was skating! Don't they have ANY respect? Sheesh!

[nyskatefan]

Sasha "might" have been held up?

right ... and I hear it "might" snow in Alaska this winter!

[Tapper]

Although Kwan didn't skate as well as she can skate, she deserved the win. One blown jump, the rest was great.
I thought it was amazing that Sasha came in third after falling on three of her jumps. I guess there actually is some truth to the idea that skaters are held up; she is obviously being recognized solely for skating so well this season. Too bad she fell apart. But she, like Michelle, will learn from this.
Jenny Kirk... wow... I like this girl... this is going to be a great national comp.

[icedancer2]

I was shocked by Sasha's placement.

that's all I'm going to say here.

[danibellerika]

Sasha's not the first skater to be held up and she won't be the last either. All the top ladies like Kwan, and Slute have had their fair share of hold ups. Slute was held up last year at this. Kwan was held up today, I think. I was totally into Shizuka's performance and I thought she was just overall better with a lot of flow and smoothness(I can't really think of what kwan did that was better), but oh well.

[Breakdown787]

Well it was close between the two, even though I thought Arakawa deserved it, I didn't think it was such a controversial placement(with Cohen, that's a different story.)

I must say though, Arakawa performance REALLY improved. That amazing Ina Beaur into T.Toe was the best move that night. Her spins were getting faster. There was actually some strecthing going on in her spirial sequence. I also saw some program/cheography changes that highlighted Arakawa more. True, I agree that Arakawa presentation is not up to Kwan, but it is almost first-class to me. Based on today's performance as well, I thought Arakawa was very quite polish, Her landings were the best, the storking and edges were amazing, and the flow and sharpness was there.

Now ultimately, I would have given Arakawa the edge mainly cause of the zero combination done by Kwan. Now does anyone know the right deduction for not having a combination?


My Marks:

Arakawa 5.6 - 5.7
Kwan 5.4 - 5.8
Robinson 5.3 - 5.7 (I really loved her program)
Kirk 5.3 - 5.5
Cohen 5.0 - 5.7
McDono. 4.5 - 5.1 (Now I thought her marks were alittle high)

[kimori]

[i]

My Marks:

Arakawa 5.6 - 5.7
Kwan 5.4 - 5.8
Robinson 5.3 - 5.7 (I really loved her program)
Kirk 5.3 - 5.5
Cohen 5.0 - 5.7
McDono. 4.5 - 5.1 (Now I thought her marks were alittle high) [/B]

I agree with your placement Cohen were too over marked! If this was a major competition this will really be a huge deal!

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by Breakdown787
Well it was close between the two, even though I thought Arakawa deserved it, I didn't think it was such a controversial placement(with Cohen, that's a different story.)

I must say though, Arakawa performance REALLY improved. That amazing Ina Beaur into T.Toe was the best move that night. Her spins were getting faster. There was actually some strecthing going on in her spirial sequence. I also saw some program/cheography changes that highlighted Arakawa more. True, I agree that Arakawa presentation is not up to Kwan, but it is almost first-class to me. Based on today's performance as well, I thought Arakawa was very quite polish, Her landings were the best, the storking and edges were amazing, and the flow and sharpness was there.

Now ultimately, I would have given Arakawa the edge mainly cause of the zero combination done by Kwan. Now does anyone know the right deduction for not having a combination?


My Marks:

Arakawa 5.6 - 5.7
Kwan 5.4 - 5.8
Robinson 5.3 - 5.7 (I really loved her program)
Kirk 5.3 - 5.5
Cohen 5.0 - 5.7
McDono. 4.5 - 5.1 (Now I thought her marks were alittle high)

ITA with most of your assessment. I know it's hard to see on tv what you see in person. IMO, yes Sasha was held up, but she was held up for the same reason as MK - the presence she had on the ice. (Although Arakawa was right up there too - she brought the audience along with her.) Robinson was rather lackluster in her skating, as was Kirk (and I really like Jenny - she just didn't have it that night). The top three were the ones that pulled the crowd into their performances, and in the 6.0 system that counts for something.

As for the men, Jeff Buttle really impressed me with his presence. I had never seen him skate before. Plushenko was excellent, as usual. I likes Weiss' program last year, but this year's lacks the oomph he needs. Timmy was basically, well, really off.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Tapper
Although Kwan didn't skate as well as she can skate, she deserved the win. One blown jump, the rest was great.

Factually incorrect...not just ONE blown jump, and the rest was not great!

MK = a blown lutz combination, therefore no lutz or even any comibination at all, doubled lutz at best in combo attempt, and later fall on second lutz, very shaky landing on 2 axel.

Therefore, as to the lutz, the most difficult jump, at most credit for a 2 lutz, badly done = salchow, 3 tl, loop (not well done, wrapped like heck, maybe underrotated); flip; 2 axel = 3 completed 3 jumps, 1 2 axel

Arakawa= 3 lutz/2 tl; salchow, 3 tl loop, loop, flip all well done, popped 2 axel, popped second lutz = 1 combination + 4 = 5

Again, according to the rules, its not as simple as falling, and since jumps are rated as to difficulty (the more difficult ones getting more credit in the old system)

Arakawa is very good on the basics...has faster, more difficult spins than Kwan....and is a very mature skater. I don't think she is overall better than Kwan even now, but that day, at that competition, she just was the best out there that day, and I do wish these judges would stop holding people up.

[kimori]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
ITA with most of your assessment. I know it's hard to see on tv what you see in person. IMO, yes Sasha was held up, but she was held up for the same reason as MK - the presence she had on the ice. (Although Arakawa was right up there too - she brought the audience along with her.) Robinson was rather lackluster in her skating, as was Kirk (and I really like Jenny - she just didn't have it that night). The top three were the ones that pulled the crowd into their performances, and in the 6.0 system that counts for something.

As for the men, Jeff Buttle really impressed me with his presence. I had never seen him skate before. Plushenko was excellent, as usual. I likes Weiss' program last year, but this year's lacks the oomph he needs. Timmy was basically, well, really off. Okay I understand why Kwan was held up but shasha(although I'm a fan of her) wasn't herself that night she was wobbling all over the place and her spins wasn't that good either the only thing that was thier was her spiral the rest really felt -bluhh-

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
Factually incorrect...not just ONE blown jump, and the rest was not great!


Whatever :roll:
"Factually incorrect" or not, the rest "not great" or not, she still skated better than anyone else, IMO, and evidently in the opinion of the judges.

[loveskating]

Sasha probably was held up...I can't discuss it only because I didn't see anyone but Kwan, Arakawa and Sasha...so I don't even know how anyone marked below Sasha skated.

I still say, however, that Sasha has enormous quality in all aspects of skating, so that the jumps don't mean as much...at least that has been clear under the COP.

Kwan is not the only skater ever held up...its just that it seems to occur more often with her than anyone else.

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by loveskating
Kwan is not the only skater ever held up...its just that it seems to occur more often with her than anyone else.


Of course, that would just be your opinion ... not a statement of fact.

[duane]

My thoughts:

It could have gone either way--Kwan or Arakawa. If I had been a judge, I would have probably given the win to Michelle because neither gave a knockout performance.

Anyway, it was great seeing Michelle competing. One can't deny that her presence added an anticipation that, for the most part, has been missing this season.

Regarding Sasha: Personally, I think the pressure of competing against Michelle (and trying to beat her for the second time--something Sasha has never done) is why Sasha had such a meltdown. Hopefully, this competition isn't an indication of how Sasha will perform at Nationals and Worlds, where she will once again face Michelle.

[alexeiluvr]

Arakawa's jumps were clean and high; Kwan's were low and cheated. Shizuka's program was better, period.

[icyboid]

Originally posted by alexeiluvr
Arakawa's jumps were clean and high; Kwan's were low and cheated. Shizuka's program was better, period.

Because it always comes down to how high your jumps are, period. :roll:

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by alexeiluvr
Arakawa's jumps were clean and high; Kwan's were low and cheated. Shizuka's program was better, period.

That would be your "opinion" ... which is pretty predictable.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by duane
My thoughts:

It could have gone either way--Kwan or Arakawa. If I had been a judge, I would have probably given the win to Michelle because neither gave a knockout performance.

Anyway, it was great seeing Michelle competing. One can't deny that her presence added an anticipation that, for the most part, has been missing this season.

Regarding Sasha: Personally, I think the pressure of competing against Michelle (and trying to beat her for the second time--something Sasha has never done) is why Sasha had such a meltdown. Hopefully, this competition isn't an indication of how Sasha will perform at Nationals and Worlds, where she will once again face Michelle.

Sasha was sick. Tarasova did not want her to compete at all, but she felt she had to honor her contract. I think the pro ams have been easier for Sasha, so she probably thought she could handle being so sick and skating, but that was a mistake, one she will learn from I'm sure. Sasha has never skated a full season at this level of training, so naturally, she has a few things to work out.

Michelle is apparently the center of some people's world, but I think not the center of Sasha's or most people's world...and trying to defeat Kwan, instead of trying to and preparing to skate your own best, would be very stupid, particularly when you are Sasha Cohen, and your best is considerably better all along the line than most of your competitors.

Speaking for myself, Sasha has all the time she would ever need to work it all out for her own self. I love to see that girl skate, win, lose or draw.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by alexeiluvr
Arakawa's jumps were clean and high; Kwan's were low and cheated. Shizuka's program was better, period.

Does this matter under the COP? I thought it must looking at Volchkova's marks for her lutz combo...but I wanted to ask.

Under the old rules, if a jump was completed by say two competing skaters, at the same correct technical level, then the issue of height and ice covered would come into play as a differentiating factor...so you would be right, Arakawa's jumps were indeed higher than Kwan's and covered more ice.

I certainly hope it matters....when correctly done, those big jumps are just breathtakingly beautiful and exciting.

Did you see Callaghan's face when the marks came up? Cracked me up!

[loveskating]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
Of course, that would just be your opinion ... not a statement of fact.

Oh, I dunno, it could be that it seems Kwan is held up more because she has been skating at the senior level since 1994...so its probably more than an opinion, its probably a fact, just by the law of averages.

Fact is, its not just Kwan, winning skaters are held up, and it is not right.

I hope the skaters affected are not demoralized...I'm sure they know, and the other skaters know...and the one held up knows too...

[loveskating]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
That would be your "opinion" ... which is pretty predictable.

And yours isn't?

[nyskatefan]

You see loveskating ... I don't present my feelings as fact. You will repeatedly see that I say ... "I think ... or IMO". And again, I make no pretense for how I feel about Michelle. I have no expectation that everyone else will/should feel the same. To each his own ... that's what makes the world go round.
I will however, make sure everyone be reminded when some things are spoken as if they are fact ... when, IN FACT ... they are an opinion.
Unless of course, you have some proof of that which you speak.

[icyboid]

Originally posted by loveskating
Does this matter under the COP? I thought it must looking at Volchkova's marks for her lutz combo...but I wanted to ask.


In COP, jump height and full rotation does matter. A clean jump with great height may get up to 3 "grade of execution" (GOE) points added to its base mark.
Underrotation can be devastating in COP. I think 1/4 cheats are okay, but anything more than that will be counted as a double instead of a triple.

(BTW, I think we're seeing why the three post rule was enforced before) :lol:

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
Oh, I dunno, ....so its probably more than an opinion, its probably a fact....


My take on it is that:
Until you prove it, it's an opinion. By talking in probabilities you remain in the theoretical rather than the factual. To say that something is "probably a fact" does nothing to verify its factuality. Your theory that Michelle has been held up more than other skaters remains, very simply, your unproven opinion.

[MQSeries]

I watched the comp again last night. I like MK's program better the second time around. She looked fast and confident even with the lutz mistakes. It did look like her skate hit a rut on the 2nd lutz. Her loop did look kind of squeak out, and I would still like to see more choreography in the first 2/3 of the program, but it wasn't too bad considering it's only the second time she performed it in front of an audience.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
You see loveskating ... I don't present my feelings as fact. You will repeatedly see that I say ... "I think ... or IMO". And again, I make no pretense for how I feel about Michelle. I have no expectation that everyone else will/should feel the same. To each his own ... that's what makes the world go round.
I will however, make sure everyone be reminded when some things are spoken as if they are fact ... when, IN FACT ... they are an opinion.
Unless of course, you have some proof of that which you speak.

Oh, I say "Imho" all the time...and I constantly ask questions of my "betters"! But that Arakawa's jumps are usually higher and cover more ice than Michelle Kwan's...all one has to do is look at their own tapes...its a fact, just as factual as the fact that Tara Lipinski's jumps were not very high but most covered a lot of ice, or that Irina's jumps are usually very high and cover a lot of ice or that Midori Ito's were HUGE, much bigger and just as solid as Volchkova's lutz...forgive me for not being blind!

See, for many of us, we are not here to support some skater...maybe we are here to LEARN, to understand figure skating, the rules, the way things are done...or to share what little we know, so we notice these little determining things that are pointed out to us, like the height and ice coverage of jumps! Arakawa just has first rate jumps, which are big...bigger than MK's bigger than Sasha's, a bit bigger than Angela's even! And in Japan, there are others who can outjump her, big time, like Onda...a fact.

Its also a fact that Arakawa hasn't been very consistent...which is where you, as an MK fan, can be happy. if she had been, the judges could not have denied her that PARTICULAR, SPECIFIC competition.

[Sing_Alto]

Originally posted by alexeiluvr
Michelle Kwan was totally held up by the judges!!! She always is!!! It totally makes me mad!!!

That explains why Michelle won gold in Nagano and in SLC, she's always held up by the judges. :roll:

[nyskatefan]

loveskating ... I think I must not be making my point very well. I am not saying that Michelle is, or is not, better than another skater ... or that she was, or wasn't, held up at the cheesefest. What I am saying is ...neither you or I know the answer to that question. We may both have opinions on it ... and neither opinion is more valid than the other. I love Michelle best, but I love many skaters ... one of which happens to be Arakawa. And ... if Arakawa had won there, I would have accepted the outcome without any argument. I happen to think it could have gone either way.

My only problem came with statements that seemed to indicate that it was a proven fact that Michelle is continually held up. As I said before, if you have some proof in this matter, I would be more than happy to hear it.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
loveskating ... I think I must not be making my point very well. I am not saying that Michelle is, or is not, better than another skater ... or that she was, or wasn't, held up at the cheesefest. What I am saying is ...neither you or I know the answer to that question. We may both have opinions on it ... and neither opinion is more valid than the other. I love Michelle best, but I love many skaters ... one of which happens to be Arakawa. And ... if Arakawa had won there, I would have accepted the outcome without any argument. I happen to think it could have gone either way.

My only problem came with statements that seemed to indicate that it was a proven fact that Michelle is continually held up. As I said before, if you have some proof in this matter, I would be more than happy to hear it.

I'll try again to be very clear!

I doubt if MK is held up any more than any other winning skater...but QUANTATITIVELY, as to number of times she has been held up, because she has been skating as an amateur for so long, she has probably been held up more TIMES than anyone else...big DEAL...the point is that winning skaters tend to be held up, and that is not right, not for MK, Irina, Yagudin, Sasha ANYONE (however, as to Sasha, I think she has been seriously undermarked for so long, its almost justice that she get held up once in a while).

Now, it follows:

Maybe the sheer QUANTITY that is due to her long career is why there is a PERCEPTION that Kwan is held up MORE...which is probably not true at all...(get it? this is a DEFENSE of Kwan I am making here, and a real, tangible ANSWER to the issue raised, which you apparently do not get???)

I am so tired of being whacked by Kwan fans for being "anti-Kwan" when in fact I am basically just trying to tell the truth as best as I know it at any given time, and in this case, the truth here happens to be in defense of Kwan!

And I don't think it is sufficient or nice or democratic to just attack people, and I find that very boring too, or to reduce every single issue to "pro or anti-Kwan", which is REALLY boring; one has to ADDRESS the issue they are raising. I have.

As for the jumps, it IS a fact that Arakawa's jumps are generally higher and cover more ice that Michelle's do, and it is a fact that this is supposed to matter by the rules (no that does not mean that I think Arakawa could beat MK in a clean skate by both...maybe, but there are lots of other things involved and MK's presentation remains around #1 or #2 depending on the field of skaters).

[duane]

Originally posted by loveskating
Sasha was sick. Tarasova did not want her to compete at all, but she felt she had to honor her contract.

Michelle is apparently the center of some people's world, but I think not the center of Sasha's or most people's world...and trying to defeat Kwan, instead of trying to and preparing to skate your own best, would be very stupid...

Well, no more stupid than competing when one is so "sick" that she finds herself splatting all over the ice rather than skating on top of it. :roll:

Sure, all skaters should simply try to skate their best when competing. Still, often there are other factors that will have an effect on someone's performance. Being sick can definitely affect ones performance. However, competing against a skater who one has beaten only one time in her entire career can definitely be a factor as well. Personally, when it comes to Sasha's performance at the Winter Challenge, I think the latter was more a factor than the former.

[nyskatefan]

Whatever loveskating ... I'm tired of arguing with you.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by duane
Well, no more stupid than competing when one is so "sick" that she finds herself splatting all over the ice rather than skating on top of it. :roll:

Sure, all skaters should simply try to skate their best when competing. Still, often there are other factors that will have an effect on someone's performance. Being sick can definitely affect ones performance. However, competing against a skater who one has beaten only one time in her entire career can definitely be a factor as well. Personally, when it comes to Sasha's performance at the Winter Challenge, I think the latter was more a factor than the former.

If you are a skater that competes against anyone but yourself, you will be a failure. You can't control the judges, and you can't control other skaters. You can only control yourself. Did Sasha think about Michelle? I'm sure that she did. However, I would hope that when she stepped out on the ice the only thing she was thinking about was Sasha. I wouldn't try to overanalyze what was, basically, a bad skate. Everyone has them once in a while.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by duane
Well, no more stupid than competing when one is so "sick" that she finds herself splatting all over the ice rather than skating on top of it. :roll:

Sure, all skaters should simply try to skate their best when competing. Still, often there are other factors that will have an effect on someone's performance. Being sick can definitely affect ones performance. However, competing against a skater who one has beaten only one time in her entire career can definitely be a factor as well. Personally, when it comes to Sasha's performance at the Winter Challenge, I think the latter was more a factor than the former.

Ok, since you called Sasha "stupid" then let me point out that lots of amateur skaters have competed when they were very sick or injured...Yagudin at Nagano, for instance, even Kwan has competed when she was sick, and used it as an excuse, as well!

But to respect your assertion, and answer it honestly, I'd like you to explain why, if "beating Kwan" is the center of Sasha's Universe, as you claim, that Sasha skated well at Campbells and beat Kwan, and then didn't at another pro am, or why she did not skate well at the GP Finals, when Kwan was not there!

I think given all the obvious facts, its more reasonable to assume that Sasha is just exhausted.

Furthermore, Sasha's program is one of the most difficult out there...how many skaters include a second lutz AND a second flip, or even do a flip in combination that entitles the second flip, much less have the jump entries Sasha has, and on top of all that, incredibly high quality and difficulty on all the other elements, including moves in the field? Not many, I assure you, and minus a 3/3 toe loop, NOT KWAN.

Sasha has every right to be exhausted! And MK is not the center of her world...fully realizing her own talent as a skater is probably the center of Sasha's world right now, and that is not a straight line process...not for anyone.

[hiliairyh]

Originally posted by icyboid
I think Michelle was held up as well, but far from how much Sasha was held up that night. She should have been deep in fifth IMHO.

ITA, IMHO, I can go either way Arakawa or Kwan, slight advantage to Arakawa. So MK was held up one slot. Sasha Cohen was Held up big time She should be tied with AP for fifth or sixth, ie she was held up 2 - 3 slots. IMHO, Sasha at the winter challenge cheesefest ties or overtakes skate america 2001 as some of Sasha's all time worse so far. BTW, any skater can have a bad skate from time to time, not unique to Sasha, Michelle, Fumie, Arakawa or Irina.

IMHO, if folks are going to talk about one skater being held up, they should at least try to talk about the other skater who was the recipient of some judges gifts too. :D

If people are so concerned about Arakawa being held down at a cheesefest, they should also pay some attention to how she was held down in the other eligible competitions this year. :D

[shadymc]

I have read this thread over and over and I don't see anyone attacking anyone, I don't see anyone calling Sasha stupid (only that she might have done a stupid thing, which, presumably, we all do) and I don't see anyone stating that beating Michelle is the center of Sasha's universe. People are simply stating that they disagree with her season strategy and they think she should have "called in sick" to the Winter Challenge. For goodness sakes, Sasha admitted this was a mistake herself.

I realize this only applies to a small percentage of Sasha fans, but sometimes it gets to the point that if a post is not gushing about Sasha then it's considered bashing. Why can't people point out that they disagree with some moves she's made? How many threads have I read that made Michelle out to be the epitome of evil because she didn't compete in the GPF, yet in some cases the exact same posters are furious because people are saying that Sasha was foolish in doing too many comps. There is a world of difference between bashing and critisizing. I think it wouldn't hurt for fans of both ladies to be a little less sensitive.

[duane]

Originally posted by loveskating
Ok, since you called Sasha "stupid"...

I'd like you to explain why, if "beating Kwan" is the center of Sasha's Universe, as you claim...

????????????

loveskating,
I've always respected your opinion, but you seem to have gone off the deep end.

I didn't call Sasha "stupid", nor did I claim that beating Kwan is the "center of Sasha's Universe". YOU are the one who brought those terms into the conversation.

I was going to try to explain myself more clearly to you, but why bother.

[MQSeries]

Furthermore, Sasha's program is one of the most difficult out there...how many skaters include a second lutz AND a second flip, or even do a flip in combination that entitles the second flip,

Sasha essentially does 3 or 4 flips in her program, no lutzes, which in itself is still very difficult, because 99.9% of skaters only manage one flip.

[Schmeck]

MQSeries, LOL about the multiple flips, but I tend to think of them as "should I do a flip, no, a lutz, wait a flip would be better..."

Bondo, I don't think Sasha panics when skating against Michelle, but I do think she does panic/fall apart when overwhelmed with the hype and pressure. I was hoping that she was over it this year, but it seems she hasn't quite shaken it off yet. Having the flu doesn't help at all - I remember when Michelle was sick at Worlds one year - she caught some nasty flu on the plane ride (which is why I think she likes to avoid overseas comps as much as she can, at least one reason) and actually got sicker as the competition progressed. The photos of her at that time made her look like death-warmed-over. I kept wondering why she didn't withdraw, but she stuck it out and landed on the podium.

Nationals just keeps getting more and more exciting, doesn't it???

Schmeck

[alexeiluvr]

Originally posted by loveskating
Ok, since you called Sasha "stupid" then let me point out that lots of amateur skaters have competed when they were very sick or injured...Yagudin at Nagano, for instance, even Kwan has competed when she was sick, and used it as an excuse, as well!

But to respect your assertion, and answer it honestly, I'd like you to explain why, if "beating Kwan" is the center of Sasha's Universe, as you claim, that Sasha skated well at Campbells and beat Kwan, and then didn't at another pro am, or why she did not skate well at the GP Finals, when Kwan was not there!

I think given all the obvious facts, its more reasonable to assume that Sasha is just exhausted.

Furthermore, Sasha's program is one of the most difficult out there...how many skaters include a second lutz AND a second flip, or even do a flip in combination that entitles the second flip, much less have the jump entries Sasha has, and on top of all that, incredibly high quality and difficulty on all the other elements, including moves in the field? Not many, I assure you, and minus a 3/3 toe loop, NOT KWAN.

Sasha has every right to be exhausted! And MK is not the center of her world...fully realizing her own talent as a skater is probably the center of Sasha's world right now, and that is not a straight line process...not for anyone.
LOVE this post. Kwan is TOTALLY not the center of the universe! Some Kwan fans need to get a life.

[Rapt2Go]

Couple of opinions:

I think Shizuka should have had the gold at this one.

I agree with some others who feel that Sasha was held up to the point I was sratching my head.

I think it was a culmination of many factors that affected Sasha. Sickness, exhaustion, MK. I've watched every elite skater have a melt down. It comes with the territory. I hope she gets some rest and shows up at Nats and Worlds rested and ready.

[loveskating]

Sasha probably was held up...I didn't see the other skaters, so I can't comment intelligently on that...but most skating fans agree that the judges do tend to hold up winning skaters, and now Sasha is a winning skater...and that's the point under debate, is it wrong or not wrong to hold these winning skaters up.

Me, I don't think they need it...the world is not going to end if they don't win gold every single time they skate, and the up and comers like Arakawa DO need it!

[loveskating]

Originally posted by MQSeries
Sasha essentially does 3 or 4 flips in her program, no lutzes, which in itself is still very difficult, because 99.9% of skaters only manage one flip.

You are right...Sasha flutzes, but so does MK, at her very best she takes off on the lutz from the flat, and Sarah Hughes, Olympic Champion, had one of the worst flutzes I've ever seen, worse than Sasha by a mile...so on balance, I wouldn't emphasize Sasha's flutz unless I were going to put it in context.

Sasha gets marked for flutzing, she doesn't get a 3 on her lutz, and given her stellar air postion, and the speed into and out, plus the similarity of the two jumps, she should get high marks, even if she flutzes. Again, she certainly is not the first winning skater to do so.

Even Irina flutzes occasionally...since she did steps into her lutz combination!

In any case, Sasha has a great flip, and a great flip in combination...the only problem is that the footwork into the second flip in Swan Lake isn't working for her, and she two foots it. I hope that gets worked out by Worlds.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by duane
????????????

loveskating,
I've always respected your opinion, but you seem to have gone off the deep end.

I didn't call Sasha "stupid", nor did I claim that beating Kwan is the "center of Sasha's Universe". YOU are the one who brought those terms into the conversation.

I was going to try to explain myself more clearly to you, but why bother.

Well, if I misunderstood you, I am very sorry. Below in quotes is what I THOUGHT you were saying...but if not, great ...maybe some people were thinking that anyway, or was it totally useless to debate? Hope not; again, I apologize if I put words in your mouth.

"Regarding Sasha: Personally, I think the pressure of competing against Michelle (and trying to beat her for the second time--something Sasha has never done) is why Sasha had such a meltdown. Hopefully, this competition isn't an indication of how Sasha will perform at Nationals and Worlds, where she will once again face Michelle. "
Originally posted by loveskating Sasha was sick. Tarasova did not want her to compete at all, but she felt she had to honor her contract. Michelle is apparently the center of some people's world, but I think not the center of Sasha's or most people's world...and trying to defeat Kwan, instead of trying to and preparing to skate your own best, would be very stupid...
to which you answered:
"Well, no more stupid than competing when one is so "sick" that she finds herself splatting all over the ice rather than skating on top of it."

[Kabooke]

:lol: at the lengths to which people will go
to discredit/belittle everything and anything Kwan does!

I guess Michelle's been handed everything her whole career and hasn't
had to work her butt off just as much if not more than others to get to where she is at and attain all she has!;)

Sure, Kwan isn't the most naturally gifted skater or close but, that makes what she's done that much greater. People can and will say what they want but no one can argue that this girl isn't a steely competitor!

As for the Competition,
I can see both sides and arguments can be made for both sides.
So, it could've gone either way with a 3/2 split and nearly did.

I don't think this competition was anymore important for Shizuka or Michelle than anything other than gauging where their skating was at thus far in the season!

Funny how fans make it a much bigger deal than the skaters themselves think it is! I doubt Michelle or Shizuka gave it a second thought!

Some people.8-)

[Schmeck]

Michelle's lutz and flip are starting to appear identical to me, especially if you ignore the moments right before the jump takeoff - (jump entry moves like 3-turns and stepovers) both jumps appear to take off from a flat to me!

On the other hand, Sasha's flip and lutz change edge over and over - I think her flip has gotten worse this year, and her lutz hasn't gotten any better.

[smallsilly]

LOVE this post. Kwan is TOTALLY not the center of the universe! Some Kwan fans need to get a life

No offense, but Michelle seems to be the center of your universe because all you do is talk about her. BTW, I have heard you mention that you like to go to the bathroom when Michelle skates...if this is true, then how do you come to the conclusion she is held up all the time? :lol:

[Rapt2Go]

Originally posted by loveskating
...and that's the point under debate, is it wrong or not wrong to hold these winning skaters up.

Sorry, I was answering the thread title - who should've won. And, IMO, that would be Shizuka.

To me, being held up is wrong. IMO, it was wrong that SC stood on the podium at the Winter Challenge, given the other skates that I watched that night. Another example that comes immediately to mind as grossly upholding a skater was Alexie's silver at Worlds 2001. ( I'm pretty sure that was the correct year.) I love all the skaters, but being held up does nothing for them and to me, "cheapens" the medal.

I'm pretty sure being held up will continue, and it doesn't irritate me as much when it is close. But when it isn't close, IMO, it really irritates me and I think is demeaning to the all the skaters affected by it as well as the sport.