Michelle Kwan - New Coach

[Maureen]

There is an article in the LA Times indicating
that Michelle has switched to Rafael Arutunian,
who coaches Sasha Abt.

[url]www.latimes.com/sports/sp-Kwan3dec03,1,5829126.story

You have to register to read the article.

Basically, it states that her relationship with Scott Williams
was great for last year. However, she has to push
herself and skate more. Rafael Arutunaian is a
noted jump technician and Michelle indicates she want
to keep up with the ladies doing triple/triples and
triple axels.

If you access the article, there are possible Grand
Prix spoilers.

[PaulWyliefan]

That link gave me trouble, but this one seems to work okay:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-kwan3dec03,1,5829126.story

Sounds like a wise move -- I hope it goes well for her.

[nyskatefan]

Good for her! Sounds to me like she has plans on sticking around awhile longer and increasing her technical ability. I wish her well.

[Ivan W]

Hmm...you kinda knew something was happening because everything was SO quiet. Good move though. Just hopes she keeps going to Morozov for choreography.

[danibellerika]

Well, we'll see how this works out. I'm not suprised that it looks like she's going to stay in until 2006 b/c it'd be dumb not to when all you have to do is skate at Nationals and Worlds every season till then. That's just 6 competitions. Actually it's 5 when you think about the fact that the Olys are BEFORE Worlds in the Oly year. Anyways, it looks like that's what she wants to do so I'm glad she realizes taking the easy road with watered down tech content isn't going to get it for her forever. I think Nationals has just gotten a little more interesting.

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by danibellerika
Well, we'll see how this works out. I'm not suprised that it looks like she's going to stay in until 2006 b/c it'd be dumb not to when all you have to do is skate at Nationals and Worlds every season till then. That's just 6 competitions. Actually it's 5 when you think about the fact that the Olys are BEFORE Worlds in the Oly year. Anyways, it looks like that's what she wants to do so I'm glad she realizes taking the easy road with watered down tech content isn't going to get it for her forever. I think Nationals has just gotten a little more interesting.


Actually, I do think Michelle will do the Grand Prix the next two seasons. It sounds to me like she has paced herself very well the last two seasons and is now ready to put it into full gear. I can hardly wait for next season's GP.

[shadymc]

Well, we'll see how this works out. I'm not suprised that it looks like she's going to stay in until 2006 b/c it'd be dumb not to when all you have to do is skate at Nationals and Worlds every season till then. That's just 6 competitions.

I believe she stated that she intends to compete more than she has been.

[loveskating]

Well, although I have serious questions about whether it is possible for her to change her skating much at this point in her life, hats off to her for recognizing the problem and trying, and for stating she intends to compete along with everyone else. I hope she does because this 2 competitions a year is NOT good for skating, not at all.

That alone sounds like the Michelle Kwan of the past.

[MQSeries]

Maybe MK is just with Aruturian for technical help. We'll see who sits with her in the K&C this Friday.

I agree that it's hard too see how much technically she can improved at this point in her career. Some skaters can pull off a second triple in a 3-3 because they have tight rotations and small figure. MK is not like that, so I'm not sure what she can do more technically. I guess we can only wait till Nationals and Worlds to see what she's capable of. It's great that she's not backing down from challenges, although I am somewhat apprehensive for her. Good luck to her. Can't wait to see how she skates this Friday.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by MQSeries
Maybe MK is just with Aruturian for technical help. We'll see who sits with her in the K&C this Friday.

I agree that it's hard too see how much technically she can improved at this point in her career. Some skaters can pull off a second triple in a 3-3 because they have tight rotations and small figure. MK is not like that, so I'm not sure what she can do more technically.

This Friday? Is that US nationals??? If so, I didn't realise it was so soon. If not, what competition is it? :??

Re: what she can improve technically - IMO, she would be better concentrating on improving the content of her routines, not just getting a 3-3. Especially when she competes under COP, she's gonna need a LOT more content & transitions than she's had recently. A 3-3 would be great, but it's not the only technical thing she could improve.

[turtlehead]

Originally posted by MQSeries
Maybe MK is just with Aruturian for technical help. We'll see who sits with her in the K&C this Friday.

I agree that it's hard too see how much technically she can improved at this point in her career. Some skaters can pull off a second triple in a 3-3 because they have tight rotations and small figure. MK is not like that, so I'm not sure what she can do more technically. I guess we can only wait till Nationals and Worlds to see what she's capable of. It's great that she's not backing down from challenges, although I am somewhat apprehensive for her. Good luck to her. Can't wait to see how she skates this Friday.

It is sort of late in the season to see any impact this new coach, if he IS her new coach, will have on her skating. I think we would be better off waiting until next season. And are you implying that Michelle has something other then a small figure? I mean shape wise? Because she is TINY.

And I think there is a TON Michelle could improve on. Maybe she wants to improve her speed. Maybe she wants to improve her spins. Maybe she wants to improve her layback. ??? We really have no clue what she's doing at this point. All anybody is doing here is speculating.

[Roma]

Originally posted by MQSeries

I agree that it's hard too see how much technically she can improved at this point in her career. Some skaters can pull off a second triple in a 3-3 because they have tight rotations and small figure. MK is not like that, so I'm not sure what she can do more technically.

I don't know about that. I've always had the impression with Michelle that she was capable of more technically, partly because she was extremely consistent in pulling out at least 6 triples. That is, it seems to me that if someone's maximum potential is 6 triples, then their normal routine is probably around 4. So someone who normally lands about 6 (and on at least 10 or so occasions has done 7) seems to me capable of doing more. So a more difficult 3/3 or a triple axel sure doesn't seem out of the question.

I don't seem to be as clear as I want to be here, I mean that it always seemed hard to believe that she was at her techinical limit, simply because it would be hard to deliver your absolute limit over and over again. So it seems likely that she has more difficulty in her.

[By the way, she need not address her other elements immediately: code of points will not be in effect in either Nats or Worlds.]

[danibellerika]

Originally posted by shadymc
I believe she stated that she intends to compete more than she has been.

Yeah I know. I was just referring to what it was looking like before all this new news came about.

[Spider68]

I don't recall if anyone else posted this, but about 2-3 months back (I think, it could have been more recent), the owners of the pro-shop at Aliso Viejo Ice Palace told me that Michelle and her father Danny came into the rink in the afternoon for a meeting with Mr. Nicks. All very discreet. No skaters in the rink since free-style was over. The only "skaters" in the rink at the time were the lunch-time firemen-hockey players doing their afternoon pickup.

They left and we heard nothing more about it. I asked my daughter's coach (who also teaches there) and she said Mr. Nicks said nothing about to her.

Just thought I'd share this little "gossip".

[Vicki]

What rink does Rafael Arutunian teach out of?

[Spark]

I also think this might be a good move. Does the article specifically state that Michelle wants to improve her jumps? The registration page doesn't seem to be working.

Michelle is only 23, people. Of course she can improve her skills. She has landed jump combinations in practice that she's never attempted in competition. A female skater can perform triple-triple combinations without a tiny, childlike build. Some of the skaters who were/are known most for their jumping were somewhat heavier than the average female skater (Harding, Ito, Onda, Bonaly). They may not be able to rotate as quickly, but they make up for it with their extra power, which gives them more height.

I do hope she concentrates on more than just the jumps, though. I'm not sure something like the triple axel is in her reach. I am glad she's thinking about the technical aspect of things. I also think it's a sign she's leaning strongly toward staying in for 2006. :D

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Vicki
What rink does Rafael Arutunian teach out of?
Ice Castles, last I heard.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by nyskatefan
Actually, I do think Michelle will do the Grand Prix the next two seasons. It sounds to me like she has paced herself very well the last two seasons and is now ready to put it into full gear. I can hardly wait for next season's GP. I would be very surprised if Michelle goes back to the GP Circuit. There is really no reason for her to, not after the life she has had the last two years. It is very, very hard to get back into full steam ahead mode. Michelle (IMO) had trouble with that two years before SLC, and because she didn't keep pushing ahead, she was left behind technically. Moving ahead now, four years later, will be even more difficult.

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by Bondo
A Michelle that intends to compete more and push herself more technically (and I hope in presentation as well)...now there is the Michelle I want to watch. I hope it comes to be.

Kudos to you Bondo!!! Excellent post!

And AxelAnnie ... I respectfully disagree with you. She has taken it easy for two years, and IMO is now ready to surge full force ahead. Maybe she felt she couldn't sustain physically and mentally four years of this all consuming training and competing. Maybe this is the type of scenario she has been envisioned all along.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
I would be very surprised if Michelle goes back to the GP Circuit. There is really no reason for her to, not after the life she has had the last two years. It is very, very hard to get back into full steam ahead mode. Michelle (IMO) had trouble with that two years before SLC, and because she didn't keep pushing ahead, she was left behind technically. Moving ahead now, four years later, will be even more difficult.

What do you mean? Do you think that doing the GP circuit is not good strategy for Michelle (no reason for her to)? Do you think that by not doing the GP Circuit she will be more able to push ahead technically, or less able? I ask because it would appear by the article that Michelle is planning on training to improve technically, and to compete more next season. I would think that if the article is accurate (or reports of what the article says... I won't register to read it), then Michelle has determined that competing and training to improve technically are necessary for her to achieve her goals. Are you suggesting that she cannot move forward technically? It may be difficult, but difficulty is part of the deal of moving forward, isn't it?

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Bondo
A Michelle that intends to compete more and push herself more technically (and I hope in presentation as well)...now there is the Michelle I want to watch. I hope it comes to be.

I'm with Nyskatefan on this one... Good post and confirms my thoughts that you are sincere... even if I think I detect a hint skepticism inherent in your hopefulness! ;)

[Pupiczech]

This Friday is the skating event at the Palace in Auburn Hills, Michgian. (The competition name escapes me. Skating Challenge or something like that). Nationals is in January.

[gandalf]

Originally posted by Spark
A female skater can perform triple-triple combinations without a tiny, childlike build. Some of the skaters who were/are known most for their jumping were somewhat heavier than the average female skater (Harding, Ito, Onda, Bonaly). They may not be able to rotate as quickly, but they make up for it with their extra power, which gives them more height.

Yes, but Michelle is not a power skater. The skaters you mentioned, particularly Harding and Bonaly, were all unusually strong. And Harding weighed less than 100 lbs when she was at her absolute best (fall of '91), which is still tiny by most people's standards. I'm not holding my breath that we'll ever see a 3axel out of MK and I'd be surprised if we saw a 3/3 other than a 3toe/3toe.

I agree that there are other technical elements MK could work on, particularly speed, footwork, and transitions. I do hope she competes the GP series though, 2 more years of Sasha going virtually unchallenged doesn't interest me.

[RobinA]

"I do hope she competes the GP series though, 2 more years of Sasha going virtually unchallenged doesn't interest me."

God Almighty, tell me about it.

[JDC1]

I disagree, I think she is capable of a different toe/toe combo.
I base this on her toe jumps being so strong and MANY reports that she's had luck with 3lutz/3toes in practice as well as some luck with 3flips/3toes. As for a 3 axel...hmm...I did notice in Tosca the 2 axel had very little set up and that last year it had more set up..however, not likely. :-)

I do recall right after SLC Michelle talked about a conversation she had with her sister about taking off 2 years and her sister said it was impossible to come back after that break so my guess is she has come as close as she could to taking time off while still skating, and in the meanwhile winning Nats & Worlds, not bad.

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by JDC1
I disagree, I think she is capable of a different toe/toe combo.
I base this on her toe jumps being so strong and MANY reports that she's had luck with 3lutz/3toes in practice as well as some luck with 3flips/3toes. As for a 3 axel...hmm...I did notice in Tosca the 2 axel had very little set up and that last year it had more set up..however, not likely. :-)


Sure the single toe by itself is strong but to do it at the back end of a combination requires speed and exact body positioning after the first jump to do the second one. She has good flow out of the 3luz and 3fl but I don't see the speed there that will give her the confident to tack on a triple toe after that. The flow out of those jumps just isn't the same as when she nails a good 3toe. It's interesting that the first 3-3 other than a toe-toe she tried in competition was a 3luz-3lp. She was basically just depending on quick rotations to complete that lp combo, because it had no height at all. But Michelle isn't a hipless, stick figure built for quick rotation.t way. If it was easier for her to do a 3luz-3toe then I assume she would have tried that instead. I'm not saying we won't see a 3luz-3toe from MK, but it's highly unlikely.

MK's axel doesn't have that Oomphs on the takeoff of an Ito or Hardings. So I will say that we will never see a 3axel from MK.

[danibellerika]

Her coach is going to work on all this stuff with Michelle. Her jumps could drastically change for all we know. I see a 3axle as being something she'll be less likely to have, at least until she gets a really good 2 axle, but I do think she's capable of other 3/3s and we could see them from her. I'm not going to be pessemistic about anything because I've learned to never doubt her or what she can do even if I'm not a fan.

[nyskatefan]

I would agree ... never underestimate Michelle.
My thoughts are that she is very unlikely to try to attempt a 3A. There are not very many ladies out there that I think would have a good shot at landing one. Look at Onda ... she was doing pretty well with it in practice, but now seems to have given up on it.

As far as 3/3's go, I think the 3Z/3T or 3S/3T are well within Michelle's reach. Don't get me wrong ... they will require lots of training ... and if she were going to continue on a limited basis as she did last season and this, i would say the possibility of her doing them would be very slim. But now with this news that she wants to start training hard and competing more, I believe she has a very good shot at landing a 3/3. I would hope that she stays away from the loop in any 3/3 combo ... that is her weakest jump. But the lutz and sal are strong ones for her, so I think she should put the toe with one of them.

[Ivan W]

Michelle Kwan...Reloaded?

(I know. I know. Just had to do it. :D)

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Tapper
I'm with Nyskatefan on this one... Good post and confirms my thoughts that you are sincere... even if I think I detect a hint skepticism inherent in your hopefulness! ;)

Ow, Gawd, the preverbial litmis test...no less than twice!

[loveskating]

If she is going to work on 3/3s then I suggest that her best jump is the 3 sal...that and the 3 toe loop.

I agree, her 2 axel is nothing to write home about...good technique, but small, slow into it.

[Spark]

Originally posted by gandalf
Yes, but Michelle is not a power skater. The skaters you mentioned, particularly Harding and Bonaly, were all unusually strong. And Harding weighed less than 100 lbs when she was at her absolute best (fall of '91), which is still tiny by most people's standards. I'm not holding my breath that we'll ever see a 3axel out of MK and I'd be surprised if we saw a 3/3 other than a 3toe/3toe.


I mentioned the skaters I did to illustrate that women can perform difficult combinations without an unusually tiny body. I know Michelle doesn't have the strength of these women, but I was trying to show that skaters with different body types can use different techniques to perform the same moves. There is a range of body types that can perform difficult jump combinations. Look at Sarah Hughes: she wasn't unusually small or unusually powerful, but she managed the most difficult jump combinations at the Olympics. So if Michelle can't rotate quite as quickly as the Lipinski's and Yamaguchi's, she can make up for it with a little more power than these types of jumpers.

I also strongly doubt that we'll see a triple axel from her, but I see no reason why she wouldn't be able to execute different triple combinations. I've seen her do triple flips and triple lutzes that have just as much speed and flow at the end as her triple toe loops, so I would say a triple flip-triple toe or triple lutz-triple toe is definitely within her reach.

[hulagrl]

i believe this coach was brought in to work with her before (on jumps for SLC)...anyone?

[Roma]

Originally posted by Bondo
Just a question that came to me...what do you all think the chances that we'll see a less consistent Michelle as a result? I personally put excitement over consistency so I don't think it would be completely a bad thing.

Bondo, I think this is quite likely. I think her past consistency (generally at least 6 triples in major competitions) has meant 1 of 2 things: either she has been at her technical limit and has been extraordinary successful at skating to her absolute max - or - she has been so consistent because she has been skating below her max, and thus is capable of more.

I think she probably is capable of more, and if she is consistent with something more difficult in practice she'll probably include it, but will have a lesser success ratio than she has in the past. She might get temporarily worse such as Jenny Kirk did when she was in the process of changing her jump technique and lost some triples for a while, but then they came back, but better.

It would certainly be refreshing to see MK do some new combos, and with anyone who has the guts to try something new, I hope she is successful. She might also push Sasha to do a 3/3 (and I tend to think that this year Sasha would shine with the challenge.) Ooooooh Nats could be a big treat!

[drmsk8r]

You'll see Rafael with her this weekend at the Pro/Am in Michigan.

[gandalf]

Originally posted by Spark
I mentioned the skaters I did to illustrate that women can perform difficult combinations without an unusually tiny body.

I think we just have different definitions of tiny. ;) I agree Sarah Hughes is a good example of someone without the powerhouse body who got 3/3 done, but her technique on those 3/3 was often questionable, with clear cheats on most of the ones she stood up.

If Michelle has a hope of doing ANY 3/3 in the 2006 Olys I think she has to do the GP series. Landing those combos in competition is crucial for her confidence. Lots of people land wildly exciting stuff in practice that never materializes in competition. And yes, if she goes for the 3/3, I think we'll start to see a less consistent Kwan.

I still don't believe I will ever see a 3/3 other than 3toe/3toe from Michelle.

[Spark]

Well yes, most elite ladies singles skaters are pretty small by ordinary standards! But I was responding to a comment that Michelle doesn't have a small enough body for extremely fast rotations like some others who have done more difficult triple-triples, so I'm assuming that poster meant Lipinski-tiny. So I pointed out some examples of skaters who weren't.

Sarah's jumps were more often then not underrotated or cheated, but I thought they were much improved by the SLC Olympics. Besides, I think the techniques of a lot of triple-triples we see in women's programs are questionable. Cohen, Slutskaya and Sokolova have done triple-triples with cheated, two-footed, or underrotated second jumps. We don't see many flawlessly executed triple lutz-triple toe or triple salchow-triple loop combinations at all. Assuming the new code of points replaces the old system completely, a skater will get some credit for the combination as long as she gets close to completing the rotation. I don't remember the rule exactly. Has anyone read the code of points who knows for sure? I keep planning on reading it, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I want to look up how, say, a poorly executed 3z-3t would compare to a cleaner but simpler jump element.

In any case, I don't see Michelle falling too far behind technically.

[sachelle]

A bit ago it seems, people were talking Michele's break up with Brad.
Some hinted she was now with Scott Williams. I guess there is a rule you can't date your coach, at least i read that in forums. Could Artunian just be the official coach so Scott could be the boyfriend?

Also I thought he was married already to Tiffany Chin, or some former skater--Is he divorced now? It doesn't seem like Michelle would leave him unless she was dooing poorly. "Oh Scott was fine for last year..." Me thinks there's a lot more to this story.

Perhaps Brad and she have reconciled and curtailing all relation was Scott was the price. I feel bad for Scott as he needs the students. Frank seems to get good skaters despite Michelle having left.

[Rachel]

Frank has a history of producing world class, champion skaters that goes back long before Michelle Kwan. Scott doesn't.

Scott was once married to Charlene Wong, but they are divorced.

[Ivan W]

Originally posted by Rachel
Frank has a history of producing world class, champion skaters that goes back long before Michelle Kwan. Scott doesn't.

By the way, her coaching situation with Scott was always (or it seemed to me) a minute-by-minute proposition. I am just surprised that it lasted this long.

[icekat]

I mainly associate Scott with the pros. He doesn't have major eligible competitive coaching experience. Also, my coach told me that at a PSA conference Frank Carroll was speaking last year and somebody asked why Michelle left him. He came out and said that Michelle didn't want to pay him the money that she would owe him. Most coaches at Michelle's level charge a percentage of earnings, not an hourly rate. My coach has taken kids to nationals and would not lie about something like that. Perhaps, money is an issue with Michelle and/or Danny Kwan. In that case, I am not surprised that nothing came of that gossip with Nicks. However, Michelle must realize that she needs a competitive coach, and hopefully she is willing to pay for it.:roll:

[JDC1]

I don't doubt your source but I really doubt that's the only reason. However, if she thought Frank was too expensive that's her perogative it's her money... but I doubt it. If she ever speaks openly about it my guess is she wanted to control her own skating and she couldn't with Frank.

[shadymc]

Sorry, I do doubt your source. I saw you post on another forum where you also claimed to have inside sources regarding another negative "fact" about Michelle and her father--that was proven to be totally incorrect by the posters there. And now you come up with another story here, again claiming to have "inside information". A story, by the way, that contradicts everything Frank Carroll has ever said about the breakup. Very curious.

[pairs_guy]

Originally posted by sachelle
A bit ago it seems, people were talking Michele's break up with Brad.
Some hinted she was now with Scott Williams. I guess there is a rule you can't date your coach, at least i read that in forums. Could Artunian just be the official coach so Scott could be the boyfriend?

There's no rule you can't date your coach, they can't control your personnal life. And you can't go on the fact that "some hinted", you can't just assume something from hearing it from some friends. Either way wether or not she's dating Scott has nothing to do with the coaching change.

[yogurtslinger]

I'm so nosy... when did Michelle break up with Brad ?

[icyboid]

I thought Scott Williams was married to Charlene Wong?

[spence1988]

Kudos to Michelle for the coaching change! I think it was a positive move. I just wish now that she would go back to Lori Nicol for the chorography.

[Clarice]

I thought Scott Williams was married to Charlene Wong?

"Was" is the operative word here.

[Mathman]

Originally posted by icekat
Also, my coach told me that at a PSA conference Frank Carroll was speaking last year and somebody asked why Michelle left him. He came out and said that Michelle didn't want to pay him the money that she would owe him.If Carroll really said this, then my opinion of Carroll has just been lowered. However greedy a person might be, either for money or for sympathy, he should keep his private business private.

Michelle has too much class to put her business in the street like that, whether we are talking about finances or her personal life.

Mathman

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
Ow, Gawd, the preverbial litmis test...no less than twice!

Please explain.

[Tapper]

huh?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by loveskating
Ow, Gawd, the preverbial litmis test...no less than twice!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Please explain.


Loveskating, On second thought, please don't bother to explain. I think I get the gist of your post and, quite honestly, I just can't take it anymore. I'm a thin-skinned wuss and I am really tired of this senseless battle I've gotten myself into with people I don't even know. I've come to realize that my posts regarding your opinions of Michelle Kwan's skating are nothing more than pointless self-indulgent exercises on my part. I think she's the cat's meow and you don't. So what?

I'm sorry I got myself into this stupid "discussion" with you in the first place. I'm done... one less person for you to fight with.

Back on main topic, I'm glad Michelle is working with a new coach and is planning on "upping the stakes."
Quite sincerely,
Tapper

[GoldElephant7]

Originally posted by Tapper
huh?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by loveskating
Ow, Gawd, the preverbial litmis test...no less than twice!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Please explain.


Loveskating, On second thought, please don't bother to explain. I think I get the gist of your post and, quite honestly, I just can't take it anymore. I'm a thin-skinned wuss and I am really tired of this senseless battle I've gotten myself into with people I don't even know. I've come to realize that my posts regarding your opinions of Michelle Kwan's skating are nothing more than pointless self-indulgent exercises on my part. I think she's the cat's meow and you don't. So what?

I'm sorry I got myself into this stupid "discussion" with you in the first place. I'm done... one less person for you to fight with.

Back on main topic, I'm glad Michelle is working with a new coach and is planning on "upping the stakes."
Quite sincerely,
Tapper

Tapper, nicely put:!:

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Mathman
If Carroll really said this, then my opinion of Carroll has just been lowered. However greedy a person might be, either for money or for sympathy, he should keep his private business private.

Michelle has too much class to put her business in the street like that, whether we are talking about finances or her personal life.

Mathman

Hmmm. I don't accept this reason as the truth, since its not verified by anyone in a position to know, but if it were, just for the sake of argument, then why would you claim that Michelle Kwan has more class than Frank Carroll?

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Tapper
Back on main topic, I'm glad Michelle is working with a new coach and is planning on "upping the stakes."
Quite sincerely,
Tapper

Yes, maybe she will do a 3/3 toe loop, or even a 3 flip/2 toe loop and a 3 lutz/2 loop, then a second flip and a second lutz! Good lord almighty, do you think she will do a 3 sal/3 loop??? She has a new coach, a jump specialist, and she has PLENTY of time to practice, no GP finals or any of that to worry about, and on top of all that, its her name that lends prestige to the competition, thus, if she isn't there, its ipso facto not prestigious.

What more could anyone want!

The anticipation, the anticipation!

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by danibellerika
Her coach is going to work on all this stuff with Michelle. Her jumps could drastically change for all we know. I see a 3axle as being something she'll be less likely to have, at least until she gets a really good 2 axle, but I do think she's capable of other 3/3s and we could see them from her. I'm not going to be pessemistic about anything because I've learned to never doubt her or what she can do even if I'm not a fan. You may well be right. However, if her jumps are going to drastically change, that won't happen between now and the end of the season. Those kinds of changes take time, and oodles of angst until you work through the new body mechanics that those kinds of wholesale changes require. Ask Jenny. Ask any skater who has gone into restructuring a jump. It is an awful year or two. I don't think we will see any kind of wh changes of that nature from Michelleolesale at this stage in her career

[AxelAnnie22]

Sorry it won't let me edit that last sentence. Should read: I don't think we will see those kinds of changes from Michelle at this stage in her career

[Skatingsarah]

Hey I'm with you 'loveskating' I'm not the biggest fan of MK but I think this could seriously help her jump wise to compete against the japanese girls. When she went to Scott I was really wondering what she was thinking, plus she was pretty stagnant in her growth over the last season. Which turned out good because no one really blossomed at the right moment. This year there are alot of challengers and I like the way Michelle is reacting to that sign. Shes a perfectionist and she sees it just as much as anyone of us, at least she has the initiative to go out and get the best. I cant wait to see what she will pull out from under her belt! It would be really nice to see some triple triple combos come from Michelle. And if all else fails..I'm sure someone else will be able to!

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Mathman
If Carroll really said this, then my opinion of Carroll has just been lowered. However greedy a person might be, either for money or for sympathy, he should keep his private business private.

Michelle has too much class to put her business in the street like that, whether we are talking about finances or her personal life.

Mathman Frank is way to classy to make a remark like that. He has been around too long for that kind of silliness. And greedy? Frank? You have to be kidding. He taught both Michelle and Karen for years for FREE because they could not afford training. So, that dog just don't hunt

[sachelle]

well, now I wonder if Scott asked Michelle for a raise after her winning all last year. Perhaps that is why she canned him. Since Michelle never tells and probably gets coaches to make vague statements when they get a severance check (at least I hope they get 1) likely we won't know the details til Frank says what the heck and writes his candid memoirs. Perhaps they are a couple wanting no hint of impropriety, as per the rule book (Scott/Kwan).

I think the Michelle and Dan see eye to eye on money issues. It it not possible they could be tight with a buck? I love Michelle's skating and like her but she's not canonized yet.

Frank has confidants and must have been truly hurt. He made the MK these folks love so much. I think it was a slap in the face to him. Oly nerves had hold of Michelle. The pressure in 2001/2002 was enormous. In the ladies only Sarah rose above that day.

Don't want to argue either split. Done and over.

[icekat]

Originally posted by shadymc
Sorry, I do doubt your source. I saw you post on another forum where you also claimed to have inside sources regarding another negative "fact" about Michelle and her father--that was proven to be totally incorrect by the posters there. And now you come up with another story here, again claiming to have "inside information". A story, by the way, that contradicts everything Frank Carroll has ever said about the breakup. Very curious.

I'm sorry you doubt my sources. Obviously, you doubt my veracity. However, I stand by my sources, in particular the PSA one. As for the other forum, yes, I did post that. However, I was not proven to be wrong. One poster in particular said Chevy was responsible for the stuffed toys in the recent competion, while I believe that, I was talking about the past competions. So if certain Michelle fans don't believe it(about Danny Kwan bringing bags of stuffed animals to throw on the ice for Michelle's fans to throw onto the ice) does not mean its not true. These so-called negatives about Michelle were really more aimed at Danny Kwan, not her. She is heavily influenced by her father. I do believe, though, she is maturing beautifully, and as my source also said, "she will get sick of him controlling everything".

[shadymc]

I think it is pretty ridiculous to suggest that one of the favorites to win an Olympic gold medal would leave their coach right before the games to go coachless just to save a few bucks. I think her reasons for leaving Frank are fairly obvious. It just should have been done at a different time. I think she was going through growing pains and reacting out of extreme stress and pressure. I think she made the right move, as the relationship had become stagnant, but the timing was poor. As for a slap in the face, I think that's rather silly. Sure, I feel bad for Frank, but this was no more a slap in the face to Frank than it was to John Nicks when Sasha left or Audrey W. when Mike Weiss left or Carol Heiss when Timmy left, etc. It happens all the time. But I never saw any of them demonized the way Michelle was when she did it.

As for Scott, they made it very clear that this relationship was temporary. Either Arturian couldn't take her last year, or perhaps Michelle was still deciding if she wanted to continue. So she took some time of from the Grand Prix series and did some soul searching--what a crime!

I agree with Axelannie that I do not expect to be seeing any improvements for awhile. I think actually it may go the other way while she is re-learning her technique. My friend went to the winter challenge and said that she couldn't land any of her lutzes, but it appeared that she was trying to do a correct outside edge on the takeoff. So I think it's going to take some time.

[Mathman]

Originally posted by loveskating
Hmmm. I don't accept this reason as the truth, since its not verified by anyone in a position to know, but if it were, just for the sake of argument, then why would you claim that Michelle Kwan has more class than Frank Carroll? Hi, Loveskating.

This is what I meant. No blame attaches either to Kwan or to Carroll if they were not able to come to a mutually satisfactory financial agreement in 2001.

But (if true) Carroll shows a lack of gallantry in talking about it in public. To me, that's gauche.

Hi, AxelAnnie.

I am a new dog to this forum, so I do not have any way of knowing whether or not Icekat is likely to be lying or mistaken about this. That's why I began my post with, "If Carroll really said that..."

I do know that Michelle herself has never said anything about the reasons for the break-up except some vague remarks about wanting to take control of her own skating. If there was more to it, she's not saying. That's class.

Mathman

[nyskatefan]

I'll tell you what bothers me ... all this gossip.
Since I doubt anyone posting these things knows for sure that they really happened ... it would be the decent thing IMO to not post these hurtful remarks. I suppose that is alot to ask though, since it seems to be some sort of contest on who can dish up the most dirt. Pretty sad.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Mathman


Hi, AxelAnnie.

I am a new dog to this forum, so I do not have any way of knowing whether or not Icekat is likely to be lying or mistaken about this. That's why I began my post with, "If Carroll really said that..."

I do know that Michelle herself has never said anything about the reasons for the break-up except some vague remarks about wanting to take control of her own skating. If there was more to it, she's not saying. That's class.

Mathman Hi Mathman - and welcome! As far as I know, Frank has never made any comments as to why he was fired. One could tell he was hugely hurt and disappointed. I always thought he handled it all very well.

PS I have no idea who the other poster is, and I have been around longer than dirt!

[lilwish]

Frank Carrroll has been notoriously closed mouthed about his entire relationship with Michelle. I find it very difficult to imagine he would talk about it at this late date. I also just flat out don't believe this would have been why Michelle left him. Clearly she felt that she needed a change going into Olympics. I felt then that it was a mistake and it seems that it was.

I suspect we will see some shakey landings and lack of improvement at first. After Jenny Kirk changed coaches her jumps got worse before they started to get better. I think this is a smart move for Michelle because it seems the cop is putting weight back into clean jumps as well as difficulty.

[Chico]

It is none of our business why Michelle and Frank parted. None. This is something between the two of them. Period. They are the only two who know what was said, and what "happened". And, even here there can be two views. There is no right or wrong, the is just an IS. Michelle has moved on, ditto with Frank. We should. This is the past, the future will be what it will be. Michelle needed to try and work with someone new. It doesn't mean she doesn't like or respect Frank, just that it was time. Let it go for goodness sake.

Chico

[Mathman]

I agree with Chico and also with nyskatefan (I always agree with nyskatefan, LOL.) Axel Annie, thanks for the nice remarks about Frank and for the welcome.

OK, I know this is off topic and that I just agreed that we should just shut up about things that are none of our business, LOL. But if nobody minds, can I just say this? My two favorite people in skating are Michelle Kwan and Lori Nichol. It just broke my heart when they separated. Well, each has prospered separately, so I guess it's just one of those things. Give me another couple of years and I'll get over it, too, LOL.

Mathman

[loveskating]

"This is what I meant. No blame attaches either to Kwan or to Carroll if they were not able to come to a mutually satisfactory financial agreement in 2001."

I agree...so what! That would only be awful if one thinks either of them are saintly, and IMHO that is not the case!

However, I don't see where Frank Caroll owes anything to Michelle Kwan, particularly since it is she who benefitted enormously from the fact that he coached her and her sister for nothing for years! I'm sure he did that only because he was financially able to do so (many are not) as a top US coach, but still, it was fully his choice, and without him, she would never have become a champion.

However, as my Lit prof said, "Write about anything except money, and if you must include money, make sure you attach money only as a means to love, as, for example, in the Count of Monte Christo" so there is an innate "unclassiness" in speaking of money.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Chico
It is none of our business why Michelle and Frank parted. None. This is something between the two of them. Period. They are the only two who know what was said, and what "happened". And, even here there can be two views. There is no right or wrong, the is just an IS. Michelle has moved on, ditto with Frank. We should. This is the past, the future will be what it will be. Michelle needed to try and work with someone new. It doesn't mean she doesn't like or respect Frank, just that it was time. Let it go for goodness sake.

Chico

Oh, I dunno, this subject in general has been a big part of skating....from those who stay with the same coach forever (Boitano) to those at the other end who switch all the time (Bobek). People still talk about various skaters and coaches breaking up...there are often traumas even at local rinks about the very same thing and there is a set of ethics about behaviors between pros at local rinks as well as advice on how to approach the subject of getting a new coach! Its just part of skating, legitimate, not a "period" at all, and far more skating specific and interesting than, say, when and where someone should chew gum, dontcha know.

[shadymc]

You actually gave me a thought. I've heard that RA and FC are good friends. I wonder if Michelle approached RA sooner about coaching her and he had to wait to discuss it with Frank first. That could explain why family friend Scott Williams stepped in for a year as an interium coach.

Yes, I know this is none of our business, but it's always fun to speculate as long as no harm is done.

[MQSeries]

Some people have said that Michelle's problem with the 3lutz this year is because perhaps she's trying to do it from a true outside edge. If that is true then I don't know if it's a good idea to be playing around with a consistent technique only a few weeks before Nationals. And if it's going to take a few months to get use to any new techniques that AT is teaching her then I be really anxious for her at Nationals. Best of luck to her. Nationals should be one exciting competition, at least among the ladies anyway. I hope her short program will again dazzle us like it did last year and her long will be equally convincing. As long as Michelle doesn't start looking like another Morozov clone then I don't care that he's doing her choreography again this year, but I'm betting that if Tosca doesn't get high artistic mark at Nationals and Worlds then she'll be looking for a new look next year.

[alexeiluvr]

You know what? I bet Scott dumped her, not the other way around. That would make him look SMART.

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by alexeiluvr
You know what? I bet Scott dumped her, not the other way around. That would make him look SMART.

Well you would be wrong.

[Mathman]

Originally posted by loveskating
"However, as my Lit prof said, "Write about anything except money, and if you must include money, make sure you attach money only as a means to love, as, for example, in the Count of Monte Christo" so there is an innate "unclassiness" in speaking of money. I agree with the good professor, LOL.

Mathman

PS. I don't know about saintliness, but I do think that Michelle has a kind heart and tries to do what's right. Frank, too, evidently. Lori Nichol, absolutely and definitely.

[Tessa]

After seeing him with MK in the kiss/cry -- is it wrong of me to think he's hot? Because I do. Yes I do. This is not my way of saying that's why he's MK's coach now, but yeow that boy has got it goin' AWN!

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Tessa
After seeing him with MK in the kiss/cry -- is it wrong of me to think he's hot?

Uh, the last one or the current one? Because either way, I'm with you on that. Michelle has excellent taste in coaches. ;)

(Yes, this really is the only thing I have to contribute to this thread. How sad is that?)

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by Tessa
After seeing him with MK in the kiss/cry -- is it wrong of me to think he's hot? Because I do. Yes I do. This is not my way of saying that's why he's MK's coach now, but yeow that boy has got it goin' AWN!


You really think Rafael is hot? There's still enough handsomeness in him to make me believe that he was a lady-killer in his youth, but he's kind of on the old side now with not much hair.

[Alexa]

Originally posted by Trillian
Uh, the last one or the current one? Because either way, I'm with you on that. Michelle has excellent taste in coaches. ;)

(Yes, this really is the only thing I have to contribute to this thread. How sad is that?)


:lol:

[sachelle]

Those two had chemistry and it looked like they were charmed by each other. Scott has no chemistry at least in front of the cameras, with Michelle. I think Brad Ference was more a friend or cover. Michelle as a woman is just emerging. I think her new coach is sexy, dashing, and maybe a flirt. This chemistry could be great for Michelle. It was so obvious, I wondered if boards were a buzzin. Think Nancy/Solomon. Women with strong father relationships look for Daddy in their men and often marry dear old dad in another guy.

I doubt her jumps will change much but I think she should redo the roles she played so well at 16, as she will really skate it and just not only act it.

[sugar4]

Originally posted by loveskating

However, I don't see where Frank Caroll owes anything to Michelle Kwan, particularly since it is she who benefitted enormously from the fact that he coached her and her sister for nothing for years! I'm sure he did that only because he was financially able to do so (many are not) as a top US coach, but still, it was fully his choice, and without him, she would never have become a champion. without him, she would never have become a champion

Who's to say that Michelle would never have been a champion? Using that logic, when and if Sasha becomes a champion, it will only be because of her current coach and the fact that she gained most peoples attention while taking lessons from Mr. Nicks will mean nothing. Does Sasha only have talent because of a coach? I personally think Sasha's (and Michelle's) talents are inborn.

And that's just my opinion.

sugar

[loveskating]

Originally posted by sugar4
Originally posted by loveskating

without him, she would never have become a champion

Who's to say that Michelle would never have been a champion? Using that logic, when and if Sasha becomes a champion, it will only be because of her current coach and the fact that she gained most peoples attention while taking lessons from Mr. Nicks will mean nothing. Does Sasha only have talent because of a coach? I personally think Sasha's (and Michelle's) talents are inborn.

And that's just my opinion.

sugar

Sasha, Michelle, whoever...they all need training at the existing standards level and incrementally and continuously to realize their own talent...the talent is natural, the realizing of it is not.

You obviously did not see Kwan in her formative years...she owes a lot to Frank Carroll, more than you realize...and yes, so does Sasha to Mr. Nicks, and now to Tarasova! Even Mozart had to be educated...he did not begin life as one of the world's greatest composers, not by a long shot! All the great composers were highly educated. Nor do these lead to success...just look at the terrible life that Mozart had to lead...despite his incredible music...all because of ugly POLITICS!

[drmsk8r]

If you talk to people close to Michelle and ask who was more talented you will most likely get the answer that Karen Kwan was the naturally more talented skater. Michelle, however had the will and determination that made her the champion that she is today. She worked harder then most on a daily basis and has a mind of steel. Sasha on the other hand, had natural talent that needed to be harnessed and refined. Mr. Nicks had a great deal to do with making Sasha the champion she is today, I don't think anybody could debate that.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by drmsk8r
If you talk to people close to Michelle and ask who was more talented you will most likely get the answer that Karen Kwan was the naturally more talented skater. Michelle, however had the will and determination that made her the champion that she is today. She worked harder then most on a daily basis and has a mind of steel. Sasha on the other hand, had natural talent that needed to be harnessed and refined. Mr. Nicks had a great deal to do with making Sasha the champion she is today, I don't think anybody could debate that.

Yes, I think you make a good point here. It takes two to tango! The relationship between coach and trainee, teacher and student, is a collaboration. Both parties have to contribute, and the results will depend not only on the talent of both but also on the willingness of both to give the time and energy it takes to achieve the goals set out.

I think it's pointless to argue about who does or doesn't owe what to whom. In a collaboration, especially one that is/was successful, it's a moot point.

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by Tapper
I think it's pointless to argue about who does or doesn't owe what to whom. In a collaboration, especially one that is/was successful, it's a moot point.


Tapper ... BRAVO!!!