Why Do The Ladies Rarely Attempt 3-3 Combos In The Short Program?

[Peter G]

Is it too big of a risk?

Are none of our eligible ladies able to do ANY 3-3 combo consistently enough to make this sort of attempt worth their effort?

Are they not ballsy enough, and if you say yes, I have two words: Sasha Cohen. At Skate Canada, she was CHOMPING at the bit to get on the ice for each warm-up skate before competing. She is so hungry, I love it!!

If people feel that it's safer to go with a 3-2 combo, wouldn't it be a good move for someone like Sasha to plan and successfully land a 3-3 combo in the short program, as a way of psyching out her competitors?

[Justine_R]

True True but im thinking that the ladies dont have the pwer to do 3-3 combos.!
Like its very rare that you see them and if you do its from one of the stronger skaters (Sasha Cohen)


Maybe the ladies just arent confident enough in there skating and themselves to be doing 3-3

[Louis]

It's too risky because there are mandatory deductions that can take a skater right out of the competition if she misses. Under COP, it's even more risky because not only are there deductions, but the combination will also be called as triple-double if the jump is more than a 1/4 turn underrotated. So, in essence, the skater would be double-penalized.

[Justine_R]

I was thinking that too but is a 3-3 a ladies required element?
Because if its not then they should add points not penalise,at least the lady tried it.
CoP has become kind of a nightmare in that sort now because everything is penalised,it lowers the skaters self esteem!!!!!!!

[jp1andOnly]

bah with the self esteem. If you can't do the jumps than you don't deserve to win. It has no bearing on self esteem. You should be docked marks for cheating your jumps. If you do a 3-3 but the second one is only 2 1/2 rotations and you get credit for it, then everyone should try it because "good job for trying. Here are points for your attempt"

A 3-3 is not a required elementfor the ladies.

[Justine_R]

Well if a 3-3 isnt a required element then why should the ladies be penalised if they try it?
At least they had a try,Isnt that what the judges ask?

[Jess-ka]

they want to see clean skating and jumps not something that sort of almost resembles a 3-3, which i think is a good idea i would rather soo clean programs than people wiping up the ice trying to do something that is just too hard for them. if you can do it and do it clean great.

[Justine_R]

True,Clean programs are great i must agree but if the 3-3 for the ladies isnt a required element then if a lady attempts one and falls underotates one of the jumps they should get most of the credit,For first attepmting the jump (even though it wasent one of there required elements)
And then having the confidence in competion!

I do agree that say if you were competing in the Olympics or something then if you werent confiedent in your 3-3 you probably wouldnt try it,But still ladies should get more used to doing this jump and shouldnt be penalised for something that they dont realy need to know.

[jp1andOnly]

well, if your argument is that they don't need to do it to win, then they shouldn't do it and thereby it doesn't matter what points they get.

I'll move down to your skating level Justine so that maybe you'll understand why they shouldn't get credit for trying. So you are in a competition with girls that are all about the same level as you. You have a good chance at winning because you have good presentation and solid jumps. Some other skater goes out and attempts her double jumps that are at least a half a rotation short. She even tries a double axel which was clearly under rotated. Results go up and she wins. You of course don't say "she deserves to win for trying those jumps. Good for her". You cry out "all of her jumps were cheated. Mine were of better quality" Do you see now why attempting triples when they are not clearly rotated should not get points?

[loveskating]

Well, when the top men started doing quads in the SP, it became necessary for those who wanted to win to do it as well.

There was the occasional quad in the LP, but it was top skater Elvis Stojko who made it a necessity by doing it consistently.

Therefore, one can assume that if and when a lady starts doing 3/3s in the SP, it would become a necessity.

I agree that the COP discourages that...which is overall going to be good for skating, because its sad to see these athletes, who give everyone so much pleasure, have wrecked bodies!

[essence_of_soy]

Triple - triple combinations are tough, especially for ladies,
because the first jump has to be almost perfect to attempt the second.

Having said that, I would like to see more variety in the ladies short. I remember at 2001 worlds, of the top 12 women in the event, every one of them performed the same jump combination (triple lutz / double toe) and footwork into a triple flip. The exceptions were Hughes and Slutskaya who did double loops, and Elina Kuttinen of Finland who did footwork into a triple loop.

[Schmeck]

essence_of_soy, I agree, the ladies' SP is starting to resemble compulsories - the same jumps, etc. Of course, in CoP, they'll be even more identical, as the ladies try to get as many points as possible, everyone will be attempting the same difficult elements. Luckily, there are spin variations, spiral variations, and footwork sequences to balance it out. Also, at least they get to skate to different music! What if the SP became like a CD in ice dance? 8O

[Arsenette]

This is after all a SPORT. I HATE when people have credit for what they don't have.. (i.e. flutz, etc.) so when a 3/3 is NOT clean - better get a deduction. I doubt many have them clean and thus do not even attempt it in the pressure cooker that is the short program. You certainly can lose a competition by botching the short and many do NOT want to start that bad. In terms of confidence - better to reward a job well done as opposed to give a false sense of security. Many skaters have relied on "almost" landing a jump thinking that they can win with it.. then go into a competition and get creamed. Their coaches should be reprimanded for even having it in their program. Ever see a football game where the player scores a touchdown by running the entire length of the field out of bounds because it's easier? I think not.

In terms of power? Yes.. if properly conditioned a woman can land the jumps cleanly.. it all goes down to technique at the end.

[Justine_R]

Thanks jp1andonly now i see!
That wouldnt be fair if someone had all solid jumps and then a another skater did all doubles and didnt do the proper jump or rotation then it definetly wouldnt be fair!

If youve got the solid jumps good for ya!but if not beware.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Schmeck
essence_of_soy, I agree, the ladies' SP is starting to resemble compulsories - the same jumps, etc. Of course, in CoP, they'll be even more identical, as the ladies try to get as many points as possible, everyone will be attempting the same difficult elements.

Not necessarily. You're right that most skaters have been doing 3lutz-2toe and a 3flip in the SP up till now, but IIRC some are doing different jumps under COP - such as a flip in combo or a loop as solo jump. I think it's mostly to avoid deductions - ie if a skater takes off on the wrong edge in a flip, their solo jump is now a loop instead. I think Tim G did either a loop or a flip as his solo jump too, instead of a (f)lutz. Not every skater's doing that yet, but the chances are we'll get some more variety this year. And it'll be interesting to see if the changes carry on through the season to Worlds, when COP won't be used.

[RobinA]

I'm not seeing a lot of 3/3s in any Ladies program, long or short. And as far as I can tell, there aren't ANY consistent 3/3s out there. The last consistent 3/3 was Tara L.

Frankly, the Men aren't even setting the world on fire with 3/3s.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by RobinA
I'm not seeing a lot of 3/3s in any Ladies program, long or short. And as far as I can tell, there aren't ANY consistent 3/3s out there. The last consistent 3/3 was Tara L.

Frankly, the Men aren't even setting the world on fire with 3/3s.

Sarah was pretty consistent.

[Justine_R]

Does Sasha do any 3-3's?

[danibellerika]

She did a 3 lutz/3 toe at worlds.

[Justine_R]

Oh ya,and by the way Daniebellerika this person called therightfooted is posting spam on our site/forum.

[danibellerika]

Thanks but I think someone deleted his posts or something.

[Justine_R]

No problem and its good that he is gone and hopefully banned.
Who comes here to post spam?

[danibellerika]

More come than they should, but we usually take care of it.

[Justine_R]

Was he/she banned?

[danibellerika]

Yeah they were.

[RobinA]

Yeah, I forgot about Sarah. But that's not my idea of consistent 3/3s, although she was more consistent than anybody else since Tara.

How many 3/3s did Sarah complete in competition, anyway? If anybody knows. (Leaving out, for a moment, the "cheat" factor.)

[Kemy]

not sure...was she consistent with them or did she just try a lot of them?

Under the new system, how do you think Sarah would fare? I would think it safe to assume that she'd either try to fix her cheats or she'd opt not to do them. Also, why did Tara and Sarah never do a 3/3 in the short?

[MQSeries]

I wasn't necessary for Tara to risk a 3/3 in the short. She had enough content without a 3/3 to place in the top 3 after the short so why risk it.

I think Sarah did enough 3sal-3lp every year that I would consider it a consistent combo for her. I think the current COP would definitely penalize her for the too-obvious flutz.

[Justine_R]

Ive never really heard much about sarah hughes,only that she has got the jumps.

[edgy]

why is everyone forgetting about the queen of 3/3s (at worlds last year) : Elena Sokolova.

She did a clean 3lutz(true lutz too) 3toe in the short program, and in qualifier, she did both, a 3lutz/3toe and a 3sal/3toe

also, at skatecanada this year, shizuka arakawa landed a georgous 3lutz/3toe.

also, if you watch 1992 olympics, nancy kerrigan landed a nice 3toe 3toe and suriya Bonaly tried a 3flip 3toe.

I can also remember irena slutskiya landing a 3sal/3loop/2toe combo at worlds. and i heard she landed a 3lutz/3loop in practice, but doubled it in the comp.

Also, Carolina kostner has a beautiful 3lutz/3toe, then goes to the other end of the ice and does 3flip/3toe. (she did this at europeans last year and came 3rd. she landed a 3lutz (true lutz)3toe in the short program at worlds last year and came 4th. she has the best 3/3s i have seen , and has landed 3/3/3s. she is also working on 4sals.

there are so many more to mention.

however, I DO NOT COUNT SARAH'S 3/3S AS 3/3S, THEY WERE 3(SOMETIMES CHEATED)/2BLES WITH A BACKSPIN ON THE END!!!!!!

[danibellerika]

I thought Irina was credited for doing the 3lutz/3loop.

[Justine_R]

Hmmm im not that keen on Irina.
She isnt really consistent in her triples and she has off weeks and on weeks.

I just dont know she dosent do it for me.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by edgy
why is everyone forgetting about the queen of 3/3s (at worlds last year) : Elena Sokolova.

She did a clean 3lutz(true lutz too) 3toe in the short program, and in qualifier, she did both, a 3lutz/3toe and a 3sal/3toe

...

I can also remember irena slutskiya landing a 3sal/3loop/2toe combo at worlds. and i heard she landed a 3lutz/3loop in practice, but doubled it in the comp.

Elena also did a 3lutz-3toe in the LP at Worlds.

Re: Irina, which Worlds are you talking about? If you mean 01, yes she landed a 3salchow-3loop-2toe, and also attempted a 3lutz-3loop-2toe, but had to step out of the landing of the 3loop, though she still did the 2toe. Apparently she also did something like a 3-3-0.5-3 at Russian nationals in 03.

And ITA about Carolina Kostner.

[Roma]

Originally posted by edgy

also, if you watch 1992 olympics, nancy kerrigan landed a nice 3toe 3toe and suriya Bonaly tried a 3flip 3toe.



Hmmm... I'm curious that regarding the 1992 Olympics you didn't mention the triple lutz - triple toe landed by the winner of that competition, Kristi Yamaguchi???

[miranda]

Has everyone forgotten the great Midori Ito? She could knock off 3/3's and 3/axels like water and did it all the time. Tonya also did a great triple axel regardless of what anyone might think. I thought this year Onda would have her 3/3's in order but I guess I will have to wait for Worlds to see any real action. I'm still betting one of the Asian skaters will perform well and get off a 3/3. I suspect by Worlds Sasha will have added hers as well. She hasn't needed it because with the exception of Elena everyone has forgotten how to jump. Sasha will win Nats and hopfully Worlds this year but if not, I think Elena might. As for "clean skates"? I have been bored to tears for many years watching clean skates. If it weren't for Midori and Tonya I'd have no fond memories of the last 40 yrs of fs. Good luck Sasha, you can do it!

[Roma]

Originally posted by miranda
Has everyone forgotten the great Midori Ito? She could knock off 3/3's and 3/axels like water and did it all the time. Tonya also did a great triple axel regardless of what anyone might think.

Absoultely! Midori and Tonya both did frequent triple/triples. And Midori should get top prize in this discussion, because she was the first woman ever to land a triple/triple as well as the first to do a triple axel.

Oh, that era, with Midori and Tonya's triple axels, Kristi Yamaguchi's triple lutz/triple toe, and Surya Bonalyi's slightly cheated quad (which in some later competitions would probably have counted as clean) was the technical high point of women's skating.

[miranda]

Finally a soul mate in fs! Yes it was a great great era but what happened after? For a long time it seems it has reverted back to Peggy Feming's time. Maybe this year's Worlds or next can be differant.

[Justine_R]

Alls i can say is ladies need to get these jumps otherwise tyhe men are going to be landing 5'5 before they even land there triple axel consistently or in combination.

[Roma]

Originally posted by miranda
Finally a soul mate in fs!

Well that certainly put a smile on my face! There were so many women in that 90-92 era who were consistently landing 3/3's or triple axels -- Midori, Tonya, Kristi, Surya, even Nancy -- that it definitely shows what the women can do. It's more than 10 years later and we still haven't seen a recent competition in which the entire final flight of skaters was COMPLETING(not just planning or attempting)such difficulty.

And Justine, I agree with you too. The gap between the men and women has grown too wide. The men keep pushing the technical envelope, while the women are staying back.

[Justine_R]

Hmm.yes we have to close the gap.....
Because come on the men have already started the quads while the ladies can barely tip the surface of the triples.
(I actually disagree with myself in someway there because they are some very good consistent lady skaters.)

[Roma]

Originally posted by Justine_R
(I actually disagree with myself in someway there because they are some very good consistent lady skaters.)

Justine, I know this is a little off topic, but I think that the fact that you 'disagree with yourself in some way' is a very good quality to have. I know that you are only 12 or 13, and you will do very well in the future if you keep this trait in that you can back up your opinion with facts, but are open to the possibility that you could be persuaded otherwise. (This will do you very well in college,as well as keeping you a well-informed and open-minded skating spectator, which you seem to already be.:) )

I agree with you, too. I do think that there are many women who are very strong technical skaters, but I do not think that the women who are most capable of doing more difficult 3/3's, triple axels, or quads are doing them consistently. I think you were right on the mark when you pointed out that the top men are continuing to advance technically while the women are not. The top women should be doing harder jumps than the 1990-1992 crowd, rather than easier ones.

[Justine_R]

Thanks Roma,
At least i posess one quality here that people will actually like me for.

Your right!
The men are doing far better than the ladies in the technical requirement area.
For example-
Skate Canada 2003-
Maybe Sasha Cohen and another lady were the only ones that could actually land there triples.Some of them turned there axel from a triple to a double axel and that is costly!
Like come on people...these ladies are supoossed to be the best of the best!
Thats why there at skate Canada because i think in the gold freeskate test at the end of your competive struggle as a teenager/kid dosent it say that you have to add at least all/most of your doubles and at least one triple?

I see ( No offence to anyone who actually likes the skaters that posses that didnt do so well in Skate Canada because of Technical Requirements)that in most cases ,the group who skates before me on a Fridays and Mondays-Senior Comp-Gold skaters.
Are actually landing there doubles/triples quite a bit better than some of the skaters that i see who are competing at a top amateur level!

As i conclude,Isee that the these ladies need to smarten up there act,and do it fast before the ladies get lost in the crowd while the men race ahead.
Or im thinking maybe this is the last step for woman, they cannot take anymore higher more rotated jumps because they are not strong enough.

Who knows....