A Question About Cheated Jumps

[Roma]

There has been a lot of dicussion on this board about skaters (e.g. Jennifer Robinson, AP McDonough) who will be really penalized for cheated jumps. But it sounds from some of the posts that these skaters sometimes cheat and sometimes don't. My question is, what causes the inconsistency? I can understand how someone would cheat a particular jump that they can't make fully around (e.g. cheats the lutz but nothing else), but I don't understand how cheating can come and go. It would seem more likely to me that if someone were suddenly struggling with jumps they'd be falling, not cheating. I guess what I'm really wondering is, how does cheating come and go? It seems that once a skater got in the habit of cheating several jumps, it would be very hard to correct for a time, only to resurrect again. Any thoughts? (P.S. I'm pretty good at picking out cheating in person, but not on TV. Any hints?)

[Justine_R]

Hmmmm me either cheated jumps?
I can only think of a flutz!

[jp1andOnly]

Justine: A cheated jump is a jump that isn't fully rotated. For example, the skater may only jump 2 1/2 revolutions and do the rest of the jump on the ice.

[rinsk]

A cheated jump that comes and goes could be from slightly inconsistent technique. Think of the physics of jumping: to get a jump a full 3 rotations in the air, you'd need to jump up a certain height and pull in tight enough so that you have enough air time and have enough rotation (which comes from a torque you give yourself going into the jump from very specific muscle movements and the speed of the rotation is determined by the in air position: the tighter you pull in in the air, the faster you go).

Okay, now, look at everything required above and think of everything that can go wrong and the amount of skill in would take to execute all these factors exactly the same each time. If, for example, a skater doesn't always jump high enough or pull in tightly enough to get all the way around but everything else in the jump is okay, the probably won't fall, but they probably won't make it all the way around.

[Roma]

Rinsk, Thanks for the info, but I would like a little more info (either from you or anyone else who cares to share). I'm still not grasping why the skater isn't more likely to fall than to actually land the cheat, because it seems like in cheating, the skater either comes out with the foot forward and does a quick 3-turn, or the blade is a little sideways. So, in other words, if people often fall even when they've full rotated the jump and landed on a back outside edge, it would seem to me that someone who isn't landing on the correct edge would be even more likely to fall.

I know I'm not being really articulate here, but I guess I'm wondering how cheats can be so 'successfully' landed. Are certain people more successful at being able to land cheated jumps routinely, that is, does it become somewhat of a habit? Some people, e.g. Michelle Kwan, seem to never cheat jumps -- she either lands them on a clean edge, or she falls. So why, for example, don't we see her cheating jumps to avoid a fall? Or is the possibility of cheating the landing just totally missing from her technique? (Not that I would like to see her cheat jumps to land them, she just seems like someone who either lands cleanly or falls - no cheats.)

Any thoughts on anything related to this at all? I'm very fuzzy here.

Also, any tips on picking cheated jumps out on TV? I almost always miss them unless I see skating in person.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Roma
Also, any tips on picking cheated jumps out on TV? I almost always miss them unless I see skating in person.

I think its the whole motion of the jump, almost from start to finish...and you just learn it by comparing a whole, whole lot, IMHO...not that I can always spot them.

If you have a pause and/or slow motion on your vcr, take a look at jumps which the commentators or others said were underotated (I usually don't use the word "cheat" because it is not a conscious mistake or tendency). Then compare the same way to say, Plushenko, LOL, who in the past usually sticks his jumps (has plenty of time to check out and land)(he is injured now, so its harder for him). He even stuck most of his quads.

IMHO, you can see an adjustment of the blade on the ice right after the skater picks in for either an under or overrotation -- the latter is usually not nearly as bad as the former --instead of the blade sinking easily into the ice and a very, very clean runout.

[Roma]

Thanks, Loveskating. I might tape a program and then use slo-mo to identify the underrotated jumps. (Also I am with you on dislike of the word 'cheat', but whenever I write a post of more than 1 paragraph or so, it often disappears! Repeatedly typing 'underrotation', though more accurate, would have made me lose my post!) ;)

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Roma
I know I'm not being really articulate here, but I guess I'm wondering how cheats can be so 'successfully' landed. Are certain people more successful at being able to land cheated jumps routinely, that is, does it become somewhat of a habit?

I think for some people it does become something of a habit, yeah. Sarah Hughes has got a lot of criticism for cheating her jumps, but that's because she does it quite a lot. It's veyr difficult to change bad technique once it's ingrained.

As for how people land cheated jumps in the first place, like if they underrotate them but don't fall, I think it's got something to do with the rotation and the speed. I mean, when someone underrotates a jump they will still be rotating when they land, and the last part of the rotation is done on the ice. The speed keeps the momentum going too, so when they check out (stop the rotation with their body/arms and free leg) they can move backwards. If that makes any sense.

Also, any tips on picking cheated jumps out on TV? I almost always miss them unless I see skating in person.

Sometimes it's not easy to spot unless you watch a slow-mo replay, especially if it's a close-up of the feet. If you don't see a replay, watch the landing foot. Ideally, the skate should land backwards, but sometimes you see it touch the ice before it's completely backwards, or it looks like the skater is doing a little of the rotation on the ice. You usually get snow when they do this.

Do you have Michelle Kwan's 02 Olympic SP on tape? If so, watch it and look closely at her foot on landing the 3flip. She underrotated it by half a revolution, and managed to turn the foot to backwards. It won't be easy to spot, not if you don't have a slow-mo of it, but it definitely happened. Maybe it'll be easier to spot if you look at specific jumps that weren't completed properly.

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by Roma
but I guess I'm wondering how cheats can be so 'successfully' landed.

As long as your body is vertical when you come down on the ice, and your landing ankle isn't twisted severely to the left or the right when it hits the ice, you will not fall and hence can finish the rotation on the ice and continue to the next move. I once came down on a double axel attempt facing forward. But because I came straight down on the flat of the blade, I had enough balance to do the last 1/2 rotation on the ice and finish the jump.

If you watch Todd when he falls on a 4toe attempt, he had the revolutions but his landing ankle was so slanted on an outside edge that it slipped right underneath him. This is also the case when most people don't quite complete the rotations before hiting the ice. Their ankle is usually leaning so much on one side that there's no way they could have hang on to the landing.

[yuffie]

I'm wondering how cheats can be so 'successfully' landed.

Well, just because a jump is underotated doesn't mean the skater is always landing flat footed. When I land flat footed on a double I will fall, because my blade catches the ice. When you land a jump you are suppose to point your skating foot toe so you land softer. Plus it's correct. If your cheating you're jump and you are still pointing your toe you will land the jump 'successfully', but if your take off technique is off you most likely won't land it.

Point is, if they are landing the cheated jump then they are doing something right, or they have the right idea. They just need to put alittle more 'umph' behind the technique. Speed really helps too.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by yuffie
Point is, if they are landing the cheated jump then they are doing something right, or they have the right idea. They just need to put alittle more 'umph' behind the technique. Speed really helps too.

Yuffie - from your mouth to my double sal :lol: . My 2 sal is sometimes landed 1/2 to 1/4 cheated now, with a 3 turn on the ice (or overrotated with no check out or correctly rotated with a fall sigh....)

Anyway, back on topic. I've seen kids who cheat their doubles for a while, landing on the toe but 1/2 to 1/4 rotation short, but a few months later they are landing them completely and well. There is a timing issue to landing jumps, too. If your timing is off, but your technique is basically correct, it is fairly easy to be landing cheated jumps. For me, anyway, it's the timing that is one of the hardest things to pin down consistently, at least when learning new jumps.

[Justine_R]

Oh i get what it is now!

[Skatingsarah]

I think that most cheating is resulted in the take off. The reason why they cheat jumps is cuz they dont get the required rotation in the actual jump. To get the rotation the skater has to jump up to make an arc and snap fast into the backspin position.
It's really easy to pick out a cheated jump when the girl (just using girl because its more common with females) has a wrapped free leg. You'll see it wrapped all the way out especially when the rotation isnt there. Dick Button is really quick to point out cheating to so if you watch ABC and can deal with Dicks commentary I'm sure anyone could pick up on 'cheating.'

Personally with the whole CoP system it is really going to hinder the skater that are cheating jumps. Both male and female. If you dont do the goods and dont do them properly you sure as hell arent going to get the marks. So like you said in the first post about Jen Robinson, her speed and consistancy on jumps aren't going to go over to well with the new system.

[Caro]

Originally posted by Roma
I'm still not grasping why the skater isn't more likely to fall than to actually land the cheat, because it seems like in cheating, the skater either comes out with the foot forward and does a quick 3-turn, or the blade is a little sideways. So, in other words, if people often fall even when they've full rotated the jump and landed on a back outside edge, it would seem to me that someone who isn't landing on the correct edge would be even more likely to fall.


If you do an underotated jump and land on the toe-pick, you won't fall cause the toe-pic will "stop" the fall.

When one falls, it is often because they were crooked in the air and landed on the blade, not the toe-pick. I can imagine you can fall from an under-rotated jump if you fall either forward (one usually lands backwards) or if you land and the force to complete the rotation is too great, making you lose your grip on the ice or lose the edge (the edge becomes to sharp for your blades to sustain).

[Justine_R]

Ive never actually done a underrotated jump but is that what they call a flutz>?

[valuvsmk]

No Justine - a flutz is when a skater is attempting to do a lutz (which should take off from an outside edge), but takes off from an inside edge instead (as a flip jump is done).

Flip + lutz = flutz.