more views on new judging system

[Artemis]

Mostly positive! 8O From Wing & Lowe, Eman, and Jeff B. among others.

http://www.tsn.ca/figure_skating/news_story.asp?ID=58761&hubName=figure_skating

[sk8er1964]

Warning - there's a Skate America spoiler in the link!

[lilwish]

Well, I am glad SOMEONE likes it. I think this is just putting a good face on it. I have been a fan for a long time and I find this system sooooo confusing and disconcerting. It has taken a great deal of the fun out of competitions for me. I am sure I will learn the finer points of this system eventually but I very much doubt this will ATTRACT new fans to skating. I think the rules were confusing to non-active fans before now and are worse than they have ever been. People who only watch during the Olympics I doubt are searching out articles about how a new juding system works or even that there is one. What a bunch of nonsense.

All of that said, it DOES seem to be working - it seemst he correct people have won so far this season.

[Dolly]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=547&ncid=547&e=10&u=/ap/20031028/ap_on_sp_ot/fig_a_judges__job_1

[icenut84]

Quote from US judge Joe Inman, in the yahoo article:

"At the Olympics, I couldn't give the true value to Sarah Hughes (news - web sites)' performance because she skated so early and the people who were left were great skaters. A 5.8, 5.8 was it. In retrospect, that was a much better performance than 5.8."

I don't understand that. A mark such as 5.8 is supposed to be nothing more than a placeholder. And despite Sarah's skate, her marks shouldn't have been any higher than that because there were still 4 skaters to go, including the top 3. "That was a much better performance than 5.8" doesn't make sense. Even though people have ideas about what kind of performance equals what mark, the truth is that they are merely a way of ranking the skaters. I can't remember what he gave the others, but if Sarah got 5.8, Irina got 5.7, Michelle got 5.6, Sasha got 5.5 etc, then 5.8 is plenty high enough because it means Sarah is first.

[Spark]

I think the fact that marks in the old system are only placeholders are exactly what the judge means. Performances that earn 6.0s and 5.9s are remembered as the greatest performances in most people's minds. So if Sarah skated last in the group and performed just as well she would have gotten higher marks. Because of this, you can't compare the most brilliant performances of the night in different competitions, because skaters get rewarded more for brilliant performances that are skated last or second-last. Under the new system, judges can give performances marks as high as they like, and if someone skates better afterward they can just give even higher marks then.

Because 6.0 is supposedly "perfection", the marks do have some meaning. But the scale often can't be used that way, because the judges always need to be conscious of placings and ordinals.

I agree with taking out the ordinal system. With ordinals, the judges are always having to think about how the skaters compare with each other so they have an idea of how much room to leave above, below or in between the marks they give to certain skaters. This way, they can just give each skater the marks they earn and forget about where they compare. I don't think casual fans will become any more confused with the change, since most of them never understood the ordinal system in the first place. Basically, all they understood was that higher marks were better. Most of them had no idea how a certain skater was placed in comparison to another. And as for people like us who follow the sport more closely, we can learn. Of course it's going to feel confusing now, but the more we watch, the more we will understand. I think the new code will be more accurate. Too many factors are involved in skating for the performances to be judged with a simplistic 6.0 scale in two seperate marks.

[Peter_K]

I generally agree that the new COP scoring system gives skaters a much better opportunity to actually get a mark that they truly deserve. Witness Kevin Van Der Perren who was dead last after the short at Skate Canada but skated 3rd in the long giving him 5th place.

Could you imagine such a result using the old system? That performance might have been a complete fluke for him, but at least he was rewarded for it. If anything, this gives a skater greater incentive to "go for it" even after a dismal early showing.

I'll agree that it's not the simplest system to follow, especially for those of us so used to the 6.0 based system thats been around for ever, but give it a chance and it will become second nature.

It's not a perfect system, and I'm sure we'll see lots of tweaking in the next year or two, but from this early stage, it looks like a leap in the right direction to me.

--Peter

[Roma]

Originally posted by Peter_K
I generally agree that the new COP scoring system gives skaters a much better opportunity to actually get a mark that they truly deserve. Witness Kevin Van Der Perren who was dead last after the short at Skate Canada but skated 3rd in the long giving him 5th place.

--Peter

Scott Smith had a similar result at Skate America. He was the very first skater in the long program, yet received third place in the free, including the highest technical score! This never would have happened in the old system.

[RobinA]

The problem is, this system will NEVER become second nature to any but the most obsessive and motivated fans. It's the freakin' tax code of the sports world.

[gandalf]

Originally posted by lilwish
I am sure I will learn the finer points of this system eventually but I very much doubt this will ATTRACT new fans to skating.

I seriously doubt how a sport is judged attracts ANY new fans. You either like the sport or you don't. People don't watch skating b/c they think the scoring system is cool, nor do they watch boxing b/c they find it interesting to see how you have to hit someone for it to count.

Originally posted by lilwish
People who only watch during the Olympics I doubt are searching out articles about how a new juding system works or even that there is one. What a bunch of nonsense.

The ISU shouldn't be catering to ANYONE when they set up the judging system, least of all people who only watch the sport during the Olys. Those who are interested in understanding the marks will make the effort to learn more about it.

Originally posted by lilwish
All of that said, it DOES seem to be working - it seemst he correct people have won so far this season.

Which is by far the most important thing. If you think the new system is working and the right people are winning, why call it a bunch of nonsense? :roll:

[LTM]

From what I saw at Skate Canada and the comments so far from the people who have to work with it (skaters, judges, coaches) COP may be on the right track.
I like that skaters get something like a report card giving them specifics they can work with. If I understand the story correctly
Amber Corwin (I think) reworked her program based on that feedback
and as a result placed much better at Skate America than in an earlier meet.
I like the end of mark saving. I like that it doesn't matter what order one skates in any longer. I like that programs appear now to have to be more balanced and the skater has to do something besides jump. I love that Kevin Van Der Perrin could pull up so far with a fine skate.
What needs work -- still not too clear how we're getting to that second mark. And it's nice that the ISU is talking about getting tough with cheaters (life time bans, etc) but talk is cheap guys.
All kinds of judged sports who's marking takes a bit to get one's head around if one is not familiar with the sport (free style skiiing and gymnastics) Both have old fans and attract new ones.
At the end of the day, you can't please everyone and people wedded
to the old system will hate this one.
But they had to do something because at the end of the day, after SLC, no
matter what side one was on, skating suffered a blow to it's credibility that had to be dealt with.

[Ice_Girl_001]

I think the cop gives skaters much more insite on there skating!
Lets point out an example;
Sahsa Cohen:Skate Canada 2003, I think she got the best possible advantage out of this point system!

[pairs_guy]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
Warning - there's a Skate America spoiler in the link!

What exactly does that mean?

I know in another thread it said to not post spoilers......so what can't we post?

[lilwish]

what I meant was that it confuses me and many fans although th end result seems to be that the right people are winning. It is not nearly as much fun to watch (giving my own marks etc. in my head or with my mother while we watch) because I don't understand, nor do I ever truly expect to understand, the cop. That is why I think it is nonsense. Sometimes I think people need to be a bit more generous when they post.

[Spark]

It's not as much fun to watch because you aren't used to it yet. I'm sure that after watching some more competitions, we will develop an idea of which scores are very good, which scores are okay, which scores are mediocre and which scores are poor. Of course, most people don't have a clue what the scores mean right now, but we can learn. I think the new system is definitely a step in the right direction. The only thing I don't agree with is the secret judging, but we'll see what happens.

[Justine_R]

Can we stop with all the Skate America spoiler hysteria after Sunday when the last TV coverage shows? This is getting just a bit absurd.

I think so too bondo! This is way over the top!