Will Michelle Kwan Turn Pro? [Archive]

AxelAnnie22

10-27-2003, 09:18 PM

I think she will have turned pro by the end of this season. And, I hope she does.

I think she will because the field of ladies is continuing to expand their skills and abilities. Good grief - Jenny landed a 3/3! Michelle is not expanding her repitoire. If one stays the same, in this sport, certainly, entropy sets in, and you begin to move backwards. Or at least it seems so.

I hope she does turn pro because, just as I didn't like to see her loose the gold at her second Olympics, I would rather she go out while still (sort of) on top. IMHO, with her other interests (which she is prefectly entitled to pursue) she is not putting the time into her skating that it will take to move forward. Think of Sarah's last year. It wasn't pretty.

BTW - just to be clear about my personal bent - I never think sports figures no matter who they are should stay around after either passion, dedication, interest, or abilities wane. (Think Pete Sampras, Montana....or Todd or Elvis .....there is a very long list.)

Roma

10-27-2003, 09:58 PM

I actually think that she is cutting back on her schedule to pace herself. And I certainly think that this is her prerogative. I think each skater should tailor their schedule to their own needs, and that there is no one right way. She is under no obligation to compete in the Grand Prix, and I think it's a smart move to avoid some of the repetition in order to prepare well for Nats.

Mayra

10-27-2003, 10:46 PM

I think it will be an extremely sad day when Michelle Kwan retires. It will be the end of an era. Whenever something great ends, you can't help but feel a little sad about it.

Ladies skating would be so boring without the never ending Michelle rivalries. Skating champions have come and gone, but Michelle Kwan has remained. Looking back at Michelle vs. Chen Lu, Michelle vs. Tara, Michelle vs. Irina, Michelle vs. Irina vs. Sarah, and now Michelle vs. Sasha, you can't help but thinking WOW, there have been some great performances all around through some of these. Who can forget 1996 Worlds,1998 Nationals, 1998 Olympics, 2000 GPF, 2000 Nationals, 2000-2001 Worlds and now 2003 Worlds. She may be same old, same old to many(myself included), but she has kept the competition in the ladies field interesting IMO.

Even now, looking at the field at Skate America, as great as it was seeing Sasha kick butt, wouldn't it have been even better if she had kicked Michelle Kwan's butt?!! ;) Didn't if feel dam good when she did it at Cambell's? Why? Because she is the reigning Kween of figure skating, National and World champion. She has given so much to this sport, and I hope she continues to do so for as long as she wants to. I for one will be sad when she says goodbye.

JMO

GoldElephant7

10-28-2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by Bondo
Gold elephant...pro skating is less pressing and takes less committment. She doesn't need to be in quite as good of shape, be training quite as difficult of moves, doesn't need to commit to a full season but just a few shows or a tour for a few months. It is less of a committment.

I see Professional Skating, as I see amateur skating, both require commitment at different levels. Performing at different levels has no bearing on one's level of commitment to skating. Each skater has their own personal commitments. If MK doesn't want to skate every event this season, she doesn't need to, and that doesn't mean she's less committed to the sport as SC. Commitment vs Participation are different topics. Brian Boitano's & Kurt Browning's skating exemplify professional skating and is the opposite of your statement. MK fits nicely in both catagories...

loveskating

10-28-2003, 08:38 AM

Pro skating is not less demanding...could be more demanding in some ways...IF you skate as a professional like Boitano, Kristi, Kulik, Tara and Kurt Browning!

I especially have LOVED most of the programs Kurt and Kulik brought us! Twizzles into a 3 axel? ILLEGAL in the ISU, but amazing by Kulik in Rubberband Man...you could never do an amateur program like Kurt's clown number or many of his programs! I loved it when Kulik landed a 3 loop right smack into a spin off the landing edge (Blues for Narada)...wow!

What I love about pro skating has been its artistry and innovation...and I miss that. I HATE to see amateurs staying too long at the party and being in decline, and then at the same time depriving pro skating of themselves...both ends of that stick bother me a lot.
.

Tapper

10-28-2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Bondo
And would it be nice for Sasha to be kicking Michelle's butt as well? Yes, but it wouldn't really make Sasha a better skater...how she skated would have been the same, so what is the only difference in how the sport itself would be other than not being able to watch Michelle's fans squirm.

The difference would be that there wouldn't be anyone to be "kicking [Sasha's] butt", that's what the difference would be. You seem to think that Sasha is unbeatable, but she's not. And Kwan is the one who can beat her. It's not the Kwan fans who will be squirming at Nationals and at Worlds, it's you who will be squirming, because you will be fearing that Kwan will outskate her. Best way to insure that Sasha wins the gold is to eliminate the competition; at the heart of it, that's why you want Michelle to turn pro.
IMHO

loveskating

10-28-2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Tapper
The difference would be that there wouldn't be anyone to be "kicking [Sasha's] butt", that's what the difference would be. You seem to think that Sasha is unbeatable, but she's not. And Kwan is the one who can beat her. It's not the Kwan fans who will be squirming at Nationals and at Worlds, it's you who will be squirming, because you will be fearing that Kwan will outskate her. Best way to insure that Sasha wins the gold is to eliminate the competition; at the heart of it, that's why you want Michelle to turn pro.
IMHO

No! The reality is that among the top 3 to 5 skaters, any of them, on any given day, can win...that is simply the nature of skating! So yes, Kwan can beat Sasha, but also, Sasha can beat Kwan...or someone else might win gold at U.S. Nationals, for that matter, not to mention Worlds (remember Sokolova last year, ROFLMAO, right out of the blue)! Kwan is certainly among the top five, but so is Sasha!

In any case, the vast majority of Sasha's fans do not base their appreciation of her on her medals, much less on her beating Kwan, but rather on greatly enjoying her actual skating, and her wins are just little decorations on the cake, so I doubt seriously if many of us will be squirming or gloating, whatever the case may be.

Wanting to "eliminate the competition" for Sasha would be so incredibly stupid and it has NOTHING to do with why I think Michelle should go pro...my reasons are perfectly reasonable and debatable on their own terms: (1) I don't think MK is skating up to her 2001 level, (2) I don't think her wins or losses mean anything, to her or anyone else; (3) I think she could scale some new heights as a pro, (4) I don't want to see her decline right in front of my eyes, which I feel that I am seeing...I didn't enjoy that with Stojko, with Eldredge or even with Luciano Pavarotti!

supersk8er

10-28-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Dilng
I voted no because I don't think she has any intention of going pro until after the 2006 Olympics, but I wish that she would because I am SO TIRED OF SEEING HER SKATE!!!!!!!!!!!!

:o Aww! I'll never get tired of seeing Michelle skate! When she does turn pro...I MIGHT even tune into the pro events to watch.

Tapper

10-28-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by loveskating
No! The reality is that among the top 3 to 5 skaters, any of them, on any given day, can win...that is simply the nature of skating! So yes, Kwan can beat Sasha, but also, Sasha can beat Kwan...or someone else might win gold at U.S. Nationals, for that matter, not to mention Worlds (remember Sokolova last year, ROFLMAO, right out of the blue)! Kwan is certainly among the top five, but so is Sasha!

You're right. I never said that Sasha couldn't beat Kwan or that Kwan was unbeatable. I'm a Kwan fan but I'm not as looney as you may think! I was intending to point out that Kwan is still capable of beating Sasha, and that if you take her out of the mix you take away that particular component of the competition.

Originally posted by loveskating
In any case, the vast majority of Sasha's fans do not base their appreciation of her on her medals, much less on her beating Kwan, but rather on greatly enjoying her actual skating, and her wins are just little decorations on the cake, so I doubt seriously if many of us will be squirming or gloating, whatever the case may be.

My response was to the poster who suggests that the only difference in competitions if Kwan dropped out would be that there would be fewer squirming Kwan fans. I was not intending to cast aspersions or make a generalization about all Sasha fans. But I see now that "you" could easily be misunderstood as being plural, so I'm sorry for being vague there - I intended it to be singular. The truth is that I also happen to appreciate Sasha's skating, and I would consider myself a Sasha fan as well as a Kwan fan, although that doesn't seem to be very fashionable (or believable) these days. Truth be told, I got ticked by the reference to Kwan fans as "squirming" and what seemed to be a call for her to leave competition. I was fighting back... and I regret that I let it get me riled up.

Originally posted by loveskating
Wanting to "eliminate the competition" for Sasha would be so incredibly stupid and it has NOTHING to do with why I think Michelle should go pro...my reasons are perfectly reasonable and debatable on their own terms: (1) I don't think MK is skating up to her 2001 level, (2) I don't think her wins or losses mean anything, to her or anyone else; (3) I think she could scale some new heights as a pro, (4) I don't want to see her decline right in front of my eyes, which I feel that I am seeing...I didn't enjoy that with Stojko, with Eldredge or even with Luciano Pavarotti!

Well, I know that you have your own valid reasons for thinking Michelle "should" turn pro. My reasons for wanting her to continue to compete are purely selfish; I like watching. I don't know what new heights she could climb by turning pro (maybe you could give me some ideas), since I've not found any truly great skater to be more interesting as a pro than they were as an amateur, with the exceptions of Kurt Browning, Scott Hamilton, and maybe Brian Boitano. (One could add Peggy and Dorothy, but that's going back to a different time altogether.) No one wants to see a great one in decline, but I don't think she's declining (MHO) and I say let's not give her the bum's rush. I still feel awe for Beverly Sills's decision to stop singing when she did, but always wonder if there were maybe a few great performances we lost because of it. I will probably also feel the same way if and when Michelle ever decides to turn pro, or to retire.

Tapper

10-28-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
I think you miss my point Tapper...

Yes, Bondo, I did miss your point, and I apologize to you for my "them's-fighting-words" reaction. (I don't know what's wrong with me... maybe not enough exercise!) Of course, you are absolutely correct that Sasha would not be any less interesting to watch or any less a skater if Michelle wasn't (or was) there. Indeed, I cannot ever imagine Sasha not being interesting to watch. I will admit though that I have some strong resistance to Michelle's turning pro. What do you think the outcome of that move would be for her and for her audiences? What benefit?

sk8cynic

10-28-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Tapper
What do you think the outcome of that move would be for her and for her audiences? What benefit?

It would greatly diminish, if not completely eliminate all the stupid Cohen-Kwan snarkfests on the boards. :lol:

Of course, I'm sure there would be another fanbase waiting in the wings....all part of the cycle as well, but it would be a change from the current paddock of dead horses we have to endure.

Chico

10-28-2003, 10:47 PM

I love seeing Michele skate, so no I hope not. Persoanlly I'm glad she's doing different things than skate. As for what she will do, what is best for her I hope. As long as she loves skating, competing, and can be competitive, as long as she wants. Michele's journey, we just get to watch.

Chico

winterdance

10-28-2003, 11:04 PM

I think she is going to stay till the next olymics. As long as she stays healthy she has a chance. Anyone in the top 5 has a chance at the olympics. I think thats what she wants.

loveskating

10-29-2003, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by winterdance
I think she is going to stay till the next olymics. As long as she stays healthy she has a chance. Anyone in the top 5 has a chance at the olympics. I think thats what she wants.

Well, if so, if that is what she wants, then I think that is sad...because even if she got a gold medal at Turin, it would mean absolutely nothing...her mark has already been made, and IMHO she has fully realized her skating at the amateur level.

Additionally, to hang on will, I feel, risk corruption and diminish her. Not being at her peak, being on the other side of her peak, will not lead to good things and I do not want to see her play that role...she has meant too much to skating, too much to people personally. If I could speak to her, I would beg her not to let things corrupt her, not only for the sake of people, but mostly for her own sake.

Dilng

10-29-2003, 04:36 PM

Michelle has been around forever because she has never won an Olympic gold medal. The last time she had an interesting program was the Black Swan, but since that program she hasn't been interesting. She had good music last season, but the choreography was bland at best. She looks the same in every program. Her technical has not changed since the 1998 Olympics. In fact she doesn't even do the triple toe triple toe anymore. So, she will continue doing the same kind of skating until the 2006 Olympics when once again some young, exciting skater will AGAIN outskate her and then she will finally go pro. She should go pro before she ends up like Todd Eldridge did at the 2002 Olympics.

AxelAnnie22

10-29-2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Dilng
Michelle has been around forever because she has never won an Olympic gold medal. The last time she had an interesting program was the Black Swan, but since that program she hasn't been interesting. She had good music last season, but the choreography was bland at best. She looks the same in every program. Her technical has not changed since the 1998 Olympics. In fact she doesn't even do the triple toe triple toe anymore. So, she will continue doing the same kind of skating until the 2006 Olympics when once again some young, exciting skater will AGAIN outskate her and then she will finally go pro. She should go pro before she ends up like Todd Eldridge did at the 2002 Olympics. I think you are absolutely correct in your assessment. If Kwan stays until Turin, it is only to finally capture that gold. And, if she is not improving---vastly---her technical skills as well as more interesting choreography NOW in preparation for 2006, it will be yet another more technically proficient skater beating her.

Her artistry was enough (until '99-2000) to fend off most comers, but it is not so anymore. If she isn't improving constantly, she won't stay even with the pack---they are all improving.

She may go to Nats and be "crowned" again, but what good is that? She simply won't be competitive if she doesn't compete (and at more than two comps a year.

loveskating

10-29-2003, 10:15 PM

MK did up her technical with the 3/3 tl in 1999, added flip to SP after 2000 Nats, fixed her layback and other things, but not, IMHO significantly enough to win an LP against someone like Sarah Hughes...who had far better, really first rate spins, and 3 sal/3loop -- when Sarah skated clean. IMHO her Red Violin in 2000 was the most technically difficult program she ever had and executed since 1996.

In any case, I think she is well past her peak, as I haven't seen her skate up to the level she did at 2001 Worlds since...and there is no way she will be able to raise her technical level if that is so.

That, in turn, creates great problems for her and lots of polarization within the sport, IMHO...and it is just not worth it; she doesn't need to do this at all.

Todd came out of that scenario with his popularity in tact because he was such a gentleman about it...always said the right thing, never got upset, never showed any bitterness, etc....and IMHO everyone knew he was out of the running entirely by SLC except his most devoted fans...but Todd, despite his popularity in America and his political support in skating, did not EVER win like Michelle Kwan has...he just did not represent the same leap in figure skating either (IMHO Kwan raised the level of presentation in this sport)! Therefore, the futile quest on his part was not nearly as hard to swallow as one by someone like Michelle Kwan would be...nor as polarizing either.

valuvsmk

10-29-2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Edited for brevity

She may go to Nats and be "crowned" again, but what good is that? She simply won't be competitive if she doesn't compete (and at more than two comps a year.

AxelAnnie, do you really honestly believe that Nationals will be a mere "coronation ceremony" for the next 2 years if Michelle competes?

loveskating

10-30-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by valuvsmk
AxelAnnie, do you really honestly believe that Nationals will be a mere "coronation ceremony" for the next 2 years if Michelle competes?

I read that like "Did Kurt Browning really need an olympic gold medal?" He wanted one, sure, but did he need it? I don't think he did, at all...not having it or having it was of absolutely no consequence whatsoever to him or anyone else...but say, when Petrenko won a gold medal, he REALLY needed it. So to me, anyway, the word "coronation" reads like that. Look, Stojko was mad that Kurt competed...but Stojko won silver and Kurt was out of the runnnng...did that change Kurt's standing or career? Not a bit.

In fact, I think Kwan needed gold in 1998...she only became really popular afterwards...but what she has shown since is that no one requires a gold medal to be successful, to be fully realized in their actual skating, to make a huge mark on skating...so then why stay in and pursue a piece of metal? It makes no sense...and there are risks...only ONE of two things can happen. I think the risks are far greater now than they were after SLC. And I'm not sure that Michelle or her fans can ever play it the way Todd Eldredige did...I'm afraid that this could even do a lot of harm and create a lot of corruption.

sasafrass452

10-30-2003, 09:30 AM

I see what you mean. Earning a gold medal is great, but it's as if they're trying to prove something we already know.... I think in some cases, the ones that strive so hard for gold are only doing it just to say they have a gold medal.

Originally posted by loveskating
I read that like "Did Kurt Browning really need an olympic gold medal?" He wanted one, sure, but did he need it? I don't think he did, at all...not having it or having it was of absolutely no consequence whatsoever to him or anyone else...but say, when Petrenko won a gold medal, he REALLY needed it. So to me, anyway, the word "coronation" reads like that. Look, Stojko was mad that Kurt competed...but Stojko won silver and Kurt was out of the runnnng...did that change Kurt's standing or career? Not a bit.

In fact, I think Kwan needed gold in 1998...she only became really popular afterwards...but what she has shown since is that no one requires a gold medal to be successful, to be fully realized in their actual skating, to make a huge mark on skating...so then why stay in and pursue a piece of metal? It makes no sense...and there are risks...only ONE of two things can happen. I think the risks are far greater now than they were after SLC. And I'm not sure that Michelle or her fans can ever play it the way Todd Eldredige did...I'm afraid that this could even do a lot of harm and create a lot of corruption.

duane

10-30-2003, 10:25 AM

I voted "No". I think Michelle will stay eligible in order to compete at the 2006 Olympics. I see nothing wrong with this. Winning Olympic gold is a desire for many athletes, and if Michelle feels that she still has the goods to do so, she should go for it.

For years now, there has been this talk of Michelle not keeping up technically with the other skaters. Not keeping up with who? Who is this woman who has upped the ante (in jumps) in ladies skating by consistently landing 3/3 combos? Who is this female Elvis Stojko who I am unaware of? Someone please tell me!

sasafrass452

10-30-2003, 10:35 AM

I know what you mean, she'll probably skate for as long as she can or until she gets gold. I think Tara Lipinski was definitely a "nemesis" for Michelle, it would've been interesting to see them compete together again if Tara stayed eligible.

I voted "No". I think Michelle will stay eligible in order to compete at the 2006 Olympics. I see nothing wrong with this. Winning Olympic gold is a desire for many athletes, and if Michelle feels that she still has the goods to do so, she should go for it.

For years now, there has been this talk of Michelle not keeping up technically with the other skaters. Not keeping up with who? Who is this woman who has upped the ante (in jumps) in ladies skating by consistently landing 3/3 combos? Who is this female Elvis Stojko who I am unaware of? Someone please tell me!

JDC1

10-31-2003, 08:05 AM

I vote "no" and the idea that Michelle isn't competitive is ridiculous. What does it matter if Jenny Kirk has a 3/3 she still couldn't beat a 5 triple Sasha. Hello, Michelle is the REIGNING WORLD CHAMPION. But that being said if she's sticking around just for the Olympics then that's too bad, I think she should just focus on school and forget the Olympics. If skating and pushing herself to learn new things whether it's new spin combos or working on expanding her spiral positions isn't enough to get her on the ice then imo she's doing it for the wrong reasons. (and no I'm not in her head so I don't know what motivates her) If anything the COP works in Michelle and Sasha's favor, they can focus on the "finesse" moves, Michelle can exploit her superior edges and technique and not stress about 3/3's.

JDC1

10-31-2003, 11:45 AM

I agree that Michelle has watered down her content, I'm not sure if the lack of jump combos is self-imposed, she may have hit her technical ceiling. I watched Taj Mahal a couple of weeks ago and it was so amazing content wise compared to what she's doing now. However I will assert her speed is generally MUCH better and her spins while not as varied are also generally MUCH faster. It is confusing watching her and wondering what's going on in her head and I truly hope as a fan and someone MUCH older that her only motivation is not the Olympics there's no guarantees (she should know this by now) and if she is making that Gold medal the be all and end all then she's just going to end up disappointed no matter what.

loveskating

11-01-2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by JDC1
I vote "no" and the idea that Michelle isn't competitive is ridiculous.

As long as MK is in the top 5, she is "competitive" and she can win, but IMHO she is still past her own peak, not just on the jumps either...even in her reprise of the Rach SP, she lessened the difficulty (and yes, I know she got first place marks for it at SLC, but that doesn't change the fact that she lowered the difficulty).

That is leaving aside the issue of what winning ANY medal means to her or anyone else at this point...the last medal she won that meant anything to me was Worlds 2001. I kind of hoped that she would win her gold at SLC, but I didn't care because obviously, she did not really need it!

No one is in her head, but jeeze, one needs to have some idea of what is going on...I mean, I KNEW why Sarah Hughes planned two 3/3s with a loop in the LP at SLC...she was going for it, and she knew that was the only way she could win! I understood why Sasha planned a 3 lutz/3 tl...why Irina does a 2 loop in her lutz combo...I mean, there are things that are obvious, and should be, and why MK is staying in is NOT at all obvious to me...not in her skating, where the level is IMHO down, or otherwise, so it is very vexing.

Tapper

11-02-2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by loveskating
No one is in her head, but jeeze, one needs to have some idea of what is going on...I mean, I KNEW why Sarah Hughes planned two 3/3s with a loop in the LP at SLC...she was going for it, and she knew that was the only way she could win! I understood why Sasha planned a 3 lutz/3 tl...why Irina does a 2 loop in her lutz combo...I mean, there are things that are obvious, and should be, and why MK is staying in is NOT at all obvious to me...not in her skating, where the level is IMHO down, or otherwise, so it is very vexing.

Why must or "should" Michelle's reasons for competing be obvious to you or to anyone else?

In my book, the fact that she is not as easy to read as the others you mention, makes her even more intriguing.

berrybarn

11-02-2003, 09:57 PM

Loveskating, maybe you can elaborate on how Michelle Kwan's staying eligible will lead to corruption and polarization in the sport. I don't think corruption has kept MK at or near the top for the past several years. And as far as polarization goes, everyone would have his or her opinion of the sport with or without MK. Or maybe I'm just not understanding your meaning?

Kemy

11-02-2003, 11:08 PM

Since you've only watched skating since 2002, you've been living without SKATING most of your life.

Rivalries usually start when someone starts to nip at the toes of the top person in the sport. Competitions start getting exciting due to never knowing which skater will come out on top. The Alexei-Plushy rivalry is/was extremely strong when both Alexei and Plushy were healthy. This rivalry was also heated due to the fact that both once shared a coach and one moved on.

Michelle having so many rivalries only is a result of her staying on top of the podium for so long, not her fans.

duane

11-02-2003, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
It seems something about Michelle or her fans that makes fan battles specific to her and a competitor.

But there's a simple reason: Since 1996, Michelle has won 7 of 8 National titles, and 5 of 8 World titles. When she didn't win gold, she won silver. What this means is that for the past 8 years, many skaters have "battled" Michelle to become National or World champion--and most of them failed.

sk8ingMom

11-03-2003, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by patsue
Sure hope not--not for a while anyway. It gets kinda repetitive seeing: Michelle should retire to give the up and comers their chance
then when she doesn't do the GP she's accused of not caring about competing. C'mon guys--you can't have it both ways.

As we all know that we cannot have it both ways but we do. Just a human nature thing. The grass is always greener on the other side....isn't that what everyone says! LOL just playing around and I voted that she should turn pro, but I think she is going to try for gold one more time first.8-)

Scribe

11-03-2003, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Kemy
Michelle having so many rivalries only is a result of her staying on top of the podium for so long, not her fans.
I agree. Rodnina & Zaitzev and Witt also stayed around longer, and thus had more rivalries. R&Z won just about everything in pairs skating from '69-'80, 11 years. Then, it was Witt vs. The US '80s Ladies--
Witt vs. Zayak, Witt vs. Roz, Witt vs. Chin, Witt vs. Debi, Witt vs. Trenary, Witt vs. Kadevy.

For a long time, there has been a tendency for the media and fans to create rivalries that concentrate on just two skaters at a time:

'70s-- Scuba vs. Lynn, Hamill vs. DeLeuwe (sp?), Fratiane vs. Potczh(sp?), R&Z vs. Tai & Randy, Cousins vs. Hoffman.
Though the '70s was before the Trash Talk era in sports, Hamill vs. DeLeuwe had a little-- some in the US media and some fans basically implied that DeLeuwe(sp?) was a traitor by competing for The Netherlands instead of the US.

'80s-mid '90s
Hamill vs. Santee, Witt vs. one of the US ladies, The Battle of the Brians, Browning vs. Petrenko, Yamaguchi vs. Ito, Yamguchi vs. Harding, Harding vs. Kerrigan, Kerrigan vs. Baiul, Elvis vs. Urmanov
Kat had a rep for doing things to psych out her rivals. And, we all know what happened in '94.

So, skating rivalries that can sometimes become overly strident aren't new, and will most likely continue. There's already a bit of talk about Cohen vs. Kirk and Cohen vs. Divakawa.

bunghodog

11-03-2003, 07:03 AM

I don't care if Michelle goes professional or not, if she does not she will be fine, she is in great shape and can still do plenty of triple's, if she stays I will hope for her to be on the podium, and also as for her not being at her peak, there are many people who thought she was past her peak last year.

nyskatefan

11-03-2003, 08:50 AM

I tried to stay out of this thread, but I just can't any longer.

My first question would be to loveskating ... you say that even if Michelle won gold at Turino, it would mean absolutely nothing ... well, this is YOUR opinion I assume? I would suggest that none of us knows for sure what Michelle would or would not like.

Secondly ... the very idea that ANY athlete should turn professional or retire because:
a) some people are bored with them
or
b) give some other athletes a chance to win

... please tell me you are not serious.
As already pointed out in this thread, Michelle happens to be the reigning national and world champion. So ... despite the opinions of some of you who think she does not have the technical ability as some other skaters ... I would say to those skaters ... "just beat her in competition then!" Very simple ... they want to be on top ... then knock her off the podium.
But herein is where the problem lies ... there is nobody out there so far who has stepped up to the plate to do this. All this talk of ladies doing 3/3's has basically been just that ... talk. The only one who landed them consistently on the elite level recently has been Sarah Hughes.
And from what I have seen so far, Michelle would still be right there competitively with any ladies skater out there.
But I have no doubt that when the time comes and Michelle feels she's had enough ... or ... that she is no longer able to compete ... then she'll leave. But it will be her choice, which is how it should be.

hiliairyh

11-04-2003, 04:38 PM

To answer this question, we will have to get inside Michelle's head, because it is her life, and only she can decide whether she should turn pro or not.

Some argument presented so far:

1. Her ability has peaked, she should retire!!

That is debatable, but even if she has peaked, she still has enough skills to be competitive, so why should she retire if she does not want to.

2. I am tired and bored with her amateur skating. I used to pay to see her skate, now I won't.

I won't pay to see some skaters either, in fact, some skaters are my refrigerator break, that does not mean they have to retire. It is my responsibility to skip watching them.

3. I hate to see her lose gold in SLC, therefore she should retire.

IIRC, I thought these were the same people who cheered for someone else to win gold in SLC.

4. I don't want her Turin experience to be like Todd's at SLC.

Todd's SLC maybe disappointing to him, I am sure he was glad he had the chance to compete though. Life is filled with the + and -, on balance, I don't think Todd regretted SLC.

Then the "corruption" thing is totally way over my head. If the system is corrupt then athlete who participate in the competitions is corrupt? That does not make sense to single out one athlete.

LOL I wish I am as passionate about (against) an athlete as some.

patsue

11-04-2003, 07:27 PM

Bondo, I'm sure glad judges don't have the same mind-set you have in regards to "Michelle getting worse every new season". As much as you like to carp about her not raising the bar your own personal favorite doesn't seem to be doing too much of it either. And thanks to CoP, some of the skaters from Japan and other countries are curtailing their 3/3s, quads, etc to work on basic skating skills, because raising that bar with bad technique is going to cost them a possible podium spot.

AshBugg44

11-10-2003, 11:12 AM

I voted no. I don't think she will until at least after the next Olympics...and if she doesn't win gold there, she'll probably stick around some more...

MQSeries

11-10-2003, 11:35 AM

I think she should turn pro now, because I would like to see her leave the eligible scene on a good note.

patsue

11-10-2003, 10:39 PM

Bondo--Ok, I did try to read your "critique" of Sasha. Tell me, why did you drag Michelle into your discussion? Michelle was not at SA nor was she at SC. You should have been critiquing against the other worthy skaters Sasha went head-to-head with. Hmmmmm-you want Michelle to retire but it seems you just can't stop talking about her. So, I didn't read all your post--I've already heard it all.

mission99

11-10-2003, 10:59 PM

I agree with you patsue, it is pretty obvious that throughout this entire website Bondo is the most critical of MK and it seems to be the only thing they ever have to talk about.

patsue

11-11-2003, 11:35 AM

Thanks mission--I guess I just don't get all of the "diss Michelle" at any and all opportunity. While I don't particularly care for Sasha or her persona--I can manage a postitive outlook on some of her skating. I sure don't have to down-grade her to try to make someone else look better or use her in an attempt to sway someone else to my way of thinking. All of the skaters at the elite level today have good and bad aspects as regard their skating and I really don't understand the constant need to "critique"--let's just enjoy our favorites and leave the critiquing to the coaches and judges--ultimately that's who the skaters are going to listen to--not us!

IgglesII

11-11-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by MQSeries
I think she should turn pro now, because I would like to see her leave the eligible scene on a good note.

Go pro and do what, exactly? Skate in all of the pro competitions that don't exist anymore? Or the Winter Champions on Ice tour that doesn't exist anymore?

There's no point in turning "pro" at this point.

turtlehead

11-11-2003, 02:14 PM

Isn't the question here "WILL Michelle turn pro?" not "do YOU THINK Michelle SHOULD turn pro?"

patsue

11-11-2003, 02:21 PM

good point turtlehead--but then there wouldn't be the need to compare skaters and the need to bring up the same boring rationales.

MQSeries

11-11-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by IgglesII
Go pro and do what, exactly? Skate in all of the pro competitions that don't exist anymore? Or the Winter Champions on Ice tour that doesn't exist anymore?

There's no point in turning "pro" at this point.

I'm sure Star On Ice will be more than willing to snatch MK up for a hefty sum.

MK has enough clout that she can create her own opportunities. Look at Scott Hamilton. He created SOI, didn't he? Look at Brian Boitano and Kat Witt. They aren't exactly sitting around the house praying that their telephone will ring with a job opportunity.

IgglesII

11-11-2003, 08:52 PM

Ok, let's do that. Let's look at Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and Kat Witt.

Those three are/were into EVERYTHING involving skating. Michelle hasn't been. She even insisted on going to college in the middle of an Olympic cycle.

Those planning on seeing Michelle give up six months of her year to Stars on Ice when she's done competing - all six months during a normal academic calendar year - may be sorely disappointed.

Michelle has always used the word "competing" when describing what she loves about skating, vs Scott's normal use of the word "performing." If she's not competing, she may find something else to do.

AndAllThatJazz

11-12-2003, 12:04 AM

Hasn't she said before that she doesn't want to skate Pro? And that when she quits competing, that will be it and she will go on to Real Life outside of skating?
I voted NO she won't turn pro, because, I don't think she intends to ever skate Pro.

loveskating

11-12-2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by patsue
Thanks mission--I guess I just don't get all of the "diss Michelle" at any and all opportunity. While I don't particularly care for Sasha or her persona--I can manage a postitive outlook on some of her skating. I sure don't have to down-grade her to try to make someone else look better or use her in an attempt to sway someone else to my way of thinking. All of the skaters at the elite level today have good and bad aspects as regard their skating and I really don't understand the constant need to "critique"--let's just enjoy our favorites and leave the critiquing to the coaches and judges--ultimately that's who the skaters are going to listen to--not us!

Well, personally, I wanted Ilia Kulik to go pro (he is, along with Sasha, my all time favorite)...I wanted Nicole Bobek to go pro, and recently, I wanted Yagudin to go pro...and I said so at the time, and for similar reasons as I think MK should move on with her life...but I never even ONCE got attacked for it by any of their fans as "anti" anyone. People either agreed or disagreed, is all.

patsue

11-12-2003, 12:33 PM

Loveskating--excuse me--did I miss something here? You quoted my last reply and then went on (to put in heavy emphasis, I might add) the fact that even though you wanted certain skaters to "go pro" you were never attacked by any of their fans as being anti anyone. Please explain how my post attacked you in any way whatsoever? I merely stated my disagreement with the title of this thread. Only once did I specifically name a person here and that was in reply to the suggestion I read about the Sasha Critique.

Skatingsarah

11-12-2003, 06:24 PM

I voted Yes, but the more I think about it I doubt she will quit. But you guys are right its all about timing I think, I mean dotn stick around until your old news. But as far as I'm concerned Michelle Kwan just keeps on getting better and better. So I doubt unless she is having serious problems she will call it quits.

Justine_R

11-12-2003, 07:05 PM

I HOPE SO!

loveskating

11-13-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by patsue
Loveskating--excuse me--did I miss something here? You quoted my last reply and then went on (to put in heavy emphasis, I might add) the fact that even though you wanted certain skaters to "go pro" you were never attacked by any of their fans as being anti anyone. Please explain how my post attacked you in any way whatsoever? I merely stated my disagreement with the title of this thread. Only once did I specifically name a person here and that was in reply to the suggestion I read about the Sasha Critique.

It seemed to me that your former post was claiming generally (not specifically as to me) that people who want MK to go pro or move on with her life are somehow against her and possibly for some other skater. If I misunderstood the content of your post on the face of it, I'm very sorry.

In any case, as I said, I've thought it best for a number of skaters to go pro, but I've been accused and I've seen others accused by some of MK's fans of trying to eliminate the competiton for Sasha or of being "anti-Kwan" for saying it would be best for MK and for skating if she moved on, while I don't recall ever being accused of some kind of hidden agenda like that by fans of other skaters, most recently Yagudin...and I have posted my doubts about Irina too.

I think it is plainly stupid to try to eliminate the competition... since anyone in the top 5 or so can win on any given day, and personally, I would never participate in such a thing even verbally on moral grounds alone. Kwan is still among the top 5, so sure, she can win on any give day, that is not the issue for me.

Tapper

11-13-2003, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by loveskating
In any case, as I said, I've thought it best for a number of skaters to go pro, but I've been accused and I've seen others accused by some of MK's fans of trying to eliminate the competiton for Sasha or of being "anti-Kwan" for saying it would be best for MK and for skating if she moved on, while I don't recall ever being accused of some kind of hidden agenda like that by fans of other skaters, most recently Yagudin...and I have posted my doubts about Irina too.

I think it is plainly stupid to try to eliminate the competition... since anyone in the top 5 or so can win on any given day, and personally, I would never participate in such a thing even verbally on moral grounds alone. Kwan is still among the top 5, so sure, she can win on any give day, that is not the issue for me.

I know I'm guilty as charged; I accused you of wanting to eliminate the competition. You explained to me that wasn't the case. I believe you. I apologize for the accusation now, if I didn't do so before. There is no way I could ever possibly know what you "want" or what your motivations are except by what you say they are... so I do agree totally that it was totally unacceptable for me to leap to that conclusion. Now that you have told me you don't want to eliminate the competition, I take you at your word.

However, your reasons for wanted Michelle to leave eligible skating still do not make any sense to me whatsoever. Let me put that another way... I totally disagree with your reasoning. I'm free to do that, right? And the way I see it, by eliminating Kwan you are eliminating one of the top 5 competitors (any one of whom could win on any given day, Kwan included). So, no matter what else you may say, you ARE advocating eliminating one of the top competitors, and thereby you are advocating lessening the level of the competition (the person in the 6th position is lesser than whoever is in the top 5, logically speaking.)

You say that lessening the competition is not your motivation for wanting Michelle out, and that your reasons for wanting her out are valid reasons that have nothing to do with lessening the competition. Fine. But, no matter how you slice it, you are still advocating lessening the power of the competition, no matter what your reasons for doing so are.

What I really just don't understand at all is your constant harping on getting Michelle to drop out of the competition. I don't agree with your reasons for wanting her to drop out, or "move on" as some like to say. So you adamantly want her to leave eligible ranks and turn pro, when she is still in the top 5 and still capable of being on the podium, and, sorry to tell you this, but your constant harping on it makes it sound like you are "anti-Kwan." I'm not accusing you of being "anti-Kwan;" I'm telling you that it "sounds like" you are. You say you are not. OK. you're not anti-Kwan.

You know, when Michelle is ready to "move on" she will move on; but you seem quite ready to push her out the door before she wants to go, and before she needs to go, and it's only logical that it would read to many as being "Anti-Kwan."

miranda

11-18-2003, 03:11 AM

:roll:Will MK turn pro? Never. Her ego would never allow her to. I also agree with who ever said that her Nats and Worlds wins has alot to do with corruption in skating judging and the powers that be. When big time jumping was not required in womens fs, they used MK to boost tv ratings, advertizing, and for event ticket sales,thus the over inflated scores, the being held up year after year and so forth. This does not work at the Olympic level and not with the CoP that will be in place in Italy. MK is not technically able to compete in the improving world of FS. Still and all, I really believe she will probably have to be forcibly removed from the ice. As to her fans in the arena? I have attended more than one event where her fans booed the other skaters, were incredibly rude and very annoying to others sitting near them. What will they do when the gong sends MK home? I shutter to think.

JDC1

11-18-2003, 05:16 PM

Pathedic is an apt title for your post. You don't have to like a skater but not such a silly accusation as her wins at Nats and Worlds being unjustified or gotten through influence is simply silly and sounds a bit paranoid. Go back and watch the competitions, particularly last year and PAY attention, the winner is obvious.

miranda

11-18-2003, 06:23 PM

Last year was just like all the other MK years for ladies fs. Elena came in and did a 3/3, MK skated her little bird skate with no major jumps and won- same old same old. Now that CoP is on the rise this kind of hick fest is over. Yes we still have the 6.0 this year for Nats and Worlds but the power has slipped it's track. Next year will be great, and Italy? Fogettaboutit.

shadymc

11-19-2003, 09:21 AM

Miranda,

I don't understand your last post. I would think Michelle is one of the skaters who would benefit most from COP. It would reward her excellent skills and not emphasize difficult 3/3's. When I first learned about COP, my first thought was that this will be great for Sasha and Michelle.

alexeiluvr

11-19-2003, 11:20 AM

She'll Never Turn Pro....very unfortunately. Her programs sure are getting BOOO-RING!!!:lol:

nyskatefan

11-19-2003, 11:29 AM

Alot of things are getting BOOO-RING these days.

duane

11-19-2003, 04:30 PM

Miranda,

I don't know why, but something tells me that you are not a Michelle Kwan fan.

miranda

11-19-2003, 05:00 PM

I would be against any skater who' s responsible for hindering skating progress. I do believe the CoP will give more skaters a shot at the LP in any event. Already Sasha has beaten MK at Campbells which was the 1st turn around. Sasha continues to do well and I'm looking forward to her winning at Nationals. I hope she does it.

alexeiluvr

11-21-2003, 11:07 AM

Miranda, you've said it all...
I totally agree with you. DOWN WITH KWAN!!!:o

Tapper

11-21-2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by miranda
I would be against any skater who' s responsible for hindering skating progress.

You actually think that Michelle Kwan is responsible for hindering skating progress?!

Tapper

11-21-2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Sasha over Kwan
Miranda, you've said it all...
I totally agree with you. DOWN WITH KWAN!!!:o

You can chant all you want but someone has to outskate her before that will happen.

miranda

11-21-2003, 05:18 PM

There is a differance between someone being held up in an endangered sport and someone who can actually do something. When MK can spin like Sasha or get her leg up next to her head like Sasha or have positions like Sasha then you can talk about her being good. She has never won Olympic gold and never will. Sasha will win Olympic gold.

nyskatefan

11-21-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Tapper
You can chant all you want but someone has to outskate her before that will happen.

That's exactly right, Tapper. We shall see what happens come January.
Of course, I think it would be wise of Michelle to learn how to stick her skate in her ear ... she will need this skill to beat a technically daring 5 triple program.

alexeiluvr

11-26-2003, 11:08 AM

Lots of people have outskated her- she just got undeserved higher marks. It's called BIAS.

quarkiki2

11-26-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by nyskatefan
That's exactly right, Tapper. We shall see what happens come January.
Of course, I think it would be wise of Michelle to learn how to stick her skate in her ear ... she will need this skill to beat a technically daring 5 triple program.

Gheesh! You could have warned me you were going to be funny! I shot water into my nose trying not to laugh!

And, I dunno - the five triple program seems to be the winning standard this year -- and some GP winners have won without landing a combination in their LP. (Kind of like Michelle's Campbell's performance, huh?)

I think that, though her programs aren't as jam-packed as when she was with Lori Nichol, her speed and "centered-ness" have improved each year. Her footwork has been outstanding the last few years, too. Her spiral is nothing to sneeze at; her jumps are secure (which is more than a lot of skaters can say). She is in ecxellent physical condition. Her spin positions are not as extreme as some, but they are elegant and well-centered. She is still competitive.

Do I wish she would land a triple-triple? Yes. Do I wish she would spin faster? Yes. But these are comments made of her skating since, well, ever. And she still manages to bring her best skates to the ice with more frequency than others.

As loveskating says, she is easily in the top 5 skaters in the world right now. Although the only other skater I would call "Top 5" at this point is Sasha since Irina and Elena have had physical problems this year and the order of the Japanese women seems to be in flux. Do I think Michelle's Tosca program will get her on the podium at Nationals? Yes. Will she win? I don't know (and that's exciting!)

Do I think that she will go pro right now? No. Do I think she's worn out her welcome? No -- and I don't think she will until it becomes a chore for her to get on the ice. I'm not sure that she will be around until 2006. I don't think she is, either.