View Full Version : MSNBC Article on CoP and Skate America
IceDanceSk8er
10-25-2003, 04:32 PM
http://msnbc.com/news/984350.asp?cp1=1
SkateFAIR should take notice that the athletes are giving CoP a chance.
what?meworry?
10-25-2003, 04:36 PM
when i first looked at the new system in action (i printed out the whole mess), i thought it was pretty good, but only time will tell.
more and more usfsa-types, as well as the athletes are beginning to nod in guarded approval.
Arsenette
10-25-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
http://msnbc.com/news/984350.asp?cp1=1
SkateFAIR should take notice that the athletes are giving CoP a chance.
Like the skaters have a choice?? :roll:
IceDanceSk8er
10-25-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Arsenette
Like the skaters have a choice?? :roll:
I don't think that will happen unless the federations all band together, and the likelihood of that happening is practically nil. A rarely entioned fact that is that the ISU was instructed by the IOC to implement this system, which international gymnastics has used for many years.
Like any new, you have to give it a try. I think it's interesting that when the International Gymnastics Federation introduced CoP, the gymnists, and people who followed the sport, were also confused by the new system. But it's worked for nearly 10 years.
Arsenette
10-25-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
Like any new, you have to give it a try.
No.. like anything broken.. FIX IT!!! The problem was not the friggin' scores.. it was the judges placing those scores.. this changes nothing.
Was it possible to fix the old system?
I'm not sure what I think about this CoP, I'll have to see it work
but I'm not convinced given the politics of the ISU we would ever
see some of those judges slapped like they should have been. Ever.
And how do we get around the business of saving marks. Even an honest panel had trouble with that one on occasion.
I've adopted a cynical "what and see"
what?meworry?
10-26-2003, 05:48 PM
this is interesting. the judges CAN be tracked!
"The judges will give their marks anonymously, and those marks will be encrypted and saved in ISU computers. Should a mark or series of marks be out of line with others, the judge can be identified and the overall marking performances will be evaluated. If the numbers are outside a certain range given by other panel members, the judge’s name will be revealed to the ISU technical committee, which then can take action.
“Accountability is a big issue for me,” ISU vice president David Dore said. “You can do a very quick review of everything.”
(from the article linked above)
Originally posted by Arsenette
No.. like anything broken.. FIX IT!!! The problem was not the friggin' scores.. it was the judges placing those scores.. this changes nothing.
Actually there were two problems with the old system, one obviously being the ethics of some judges. But, (as I mentioned in another thread) the other has nothing to do with ethics: whenever you take numeric data and convert it to ordinal data beofre the final totals are tallied, you lose some precision. Although the old system often resulted in the correct person winning, it had major precision flaws even with a panel of the most ethical judges. For example, the skater in 3rd place after the short could have performed WELL below the skater in 1st (say for example, 1st place got all 5.9's and 3rd place got all 5.5s). But the huge difference in scores is wiped clean and replaced by ordinals. The skater in 3rd after the short could beat the skater in 1st after the short by an extremely small margin in the long and still win. Thus, the skater in 1st after the short performed much better overall but would lose. The point system takes care of this as it records a cumulative score and does not do any conversion to ordinals until the total points for the entire event are added.
A.H.Black
10-26-2003, 11:10 PM
I agree with you Roma. I think there are other problems with the established system as well. I think when a judge is asked to watch 24 skaters, judge every element, judge all the presentation elements, and then remember each program well enough to place each performance - 1-24 - correctly, it is asking even the best of judges to be superhuman. I think all judges should be asked to perform at their best but more than that is inherently unfair.
This system allows and demands that a judge be at their best but doesn't force them to play God, if you will. I'm hoping that the ISU can develop the system to the point that bias and preferences can be allowed for, even encouraged, and then have the system find the balance. I think it can be done. I once heard a long explanation of the system diving uses. In diving, the system of mathematical calculations aleviates the problem of nationalism and bias. I hope that such a system can be adapted for Skating.
I also liked the point that Dick made today. No more saving marks with the first skater so there is room for later, better skaters.
The only thing I will miss so far is the excitement of hoping for 6.0's. I suspect we will be looking for record point totals in the future.
singerskates
10-26-2003, 11:30 PM
As a skater, I kind of like the idea of everything having a point scale. This way, I can find out afterwards where I went wrong and then go and fix it in practice before the next competition. It would be great if they used this at the Adult competitive level too. We adults are still under the ordinal system and we never get any feed back from the judges as to how we did, so we have nothing to base our skating on to fix our skating for the next time.
Brigitte
Originally posted by A.H.Black
The only thing I will miss so far is the excitement of hoping for 6.0's.
You know, I thought I'd miss that excitement, but after attending Skate America on Thursday, I was surprised how quickly we in the audience could catch on. On ABC, they showed only the total for the second set of marks, but in person, they showed each component one at a time. And since each was scored on a 10-point scale, it became rather easy to catch onto what was and was not a good score. It seemed similar to gymnastics in that no one at this year's Worlds got a perfect 10 in anything, but you could sure tell a good (or great) score when you saw it. So it might be a lot better than you think.
SkateFan123
10-28-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Arsenette
No.. like anything broken.. FIX IT!!! The problem was not the friggin' scores.. it was the judges placing those scores.. this changes nothing.
Arsenette, I agree with you totally!
Personally, I'd like to see cheating judges banned for life, federations of cheating judges banned from sending judges for 3 years the first time, 10 the second and life the third time.
That might just help solve the cheating judge situation.
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