New Scoring System is Confusing!

[lutzskate]

This new skating scoring system - Code of Points or COP has me so confused.

I never thought that I would have so much trouble understanding it, so I didn't read up a lot on it over the past few months. But now, after seeing the scores of Skate America, I've got a headache!:??

[Schmeck]

The ISU has a 2.4 Mb download on their site to explain CoP :roll: How can anything take 2.4Mb of a pdf file to explain something?

Schmeck, who still thinks of CoP as standing for the Disney World attraction Carousel of Progress, LOL!

[Jade]

Before we get started on the real topic here......lutzskate your signiture that is on all your posts is quite offensive to canadians!
I suggest you change it!
But anyway ................How is the new Cop system confusing?
Have you read up on it??

[FSWer]

In my opinion I can probily say that the scoring system is good. But then again I don't know how they are figuring it or how the math go's. So I would have to understand how it worked to know if I really agree it's better. They did say on Skate America today that they do have a lot of skaters and fans (even though all don't) that do say it's working. So maybe they do have something. They also said that the old system is still being used a little bit and that they are going to give the new system till the end of the Grand Prix and see what develops.

[sasafrass452]

It is confusing, but at the same time it's a good thing. At least the skaters will be judged more fairly, & that's something that should've been done years ago!

[Calgary88]

It's terribly confusing. I sort of understand the basics of it, but when the scores flash up on the screen I have no idea if they scored, well, poorly, etc. I have no idea if they received too generous remarks, weren't given high enough scores, etc.

I think it's a good idea but as a result it is terribly confusing. for the fans. And I wonder if it won't result in TV viewership waning?

[lutzskate]

Originally posted by Jade
Before we get started on the real topic here......lutzskate your signiture that is on all your posts is quite offensive to canadians!
I suggest you change it!


Jade, how and why do you find my signature offensive??? I am the proudest Canadian you could meet! Please explain why you think that my signature is offensive.

thanks Bondo for defending my signature. I don't see how it could be offensive, but I would be interested in knowing if others feel that it is!

[Magz]

Originally posted by Jade
Before we get started on the real topic here......lutzskate your signiture that is on all your posts is quite offensive to canadians!
I suggest you change it!

It really isn't offensive...it just says that ABC and the other Canadian TV channels aren't going ot air much figure skating...and that figure skating iis a major sport in Canada...thats pretty much it

Anyways don't worry lutzskate I'm a bit confused about CoP too

[liljimeo]

I think this new system is wonderful. So far I think it is sooo fair. It reminds me of the scoring that they do in Gymnastics. I love this system because it does away with Skaters getting placements based on Name and Country recognition.

Now, I don't understand it at all.. but I understood the last one too well.. and I will gladly not understand this system as long as it works like it has so far.

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by lutzskate
This new skating scoring system - Code of Points or COP has me so confused.

I never thought that I would have so much trouble understanding it, so I didn't read up a lot on it over the past few months. But now, after seeing the scores of Skate America, I've got a headache!:??

Back in the 60s when I attended my first skating event, I was very confused about the old scoring system. It took me a long time to understand it. I didn't always agree with where judges placed a skater but I could see the rankings a judge gave all skaters and try to figure it out. I could even ask the judge why he or she placed one skater above or below another. I still may not agree but the information was there for all to see.

My major objection to COP is that no one knows what scores counted, that for SkaterA perhaps judges 1, 3, 4, 5, and 9 counted and for Skater B judges 2, 6, 7, 10, and 12 counted. There's no consistency.

My next objection is that judges are not judging. They are bean counting. A caller calls the move and the level the move counts. What if the caller is wrong? What if he or she blinks and gets it wrong? Or what if they hit the wrong button and say it's a quad when it was a triple?

The 2.4 mg file is big....too much info to memorize or even look up during an event. Eventually, just like the old system, I'll get used to it.

I'll never agree to secret judging which leads to more corruption instead of addressing the judges who cheat. COP addresses the wrong problem.

And what will they do if the computers go down? This system is far too complicated to calculate manually. That is, if anyone actually understood how to do that!

This is what happens when a speed skater is in charge of figure skating!

[IceDanceSk8er]

In the end, it's irrelevent what we think about CoP - it's what the skater's who will be judged under this new system think. So far, they are all saying that they want to give it a chance to work.

[blades]

8-)

one has to wonder if jade finds the tag line offensive or that jade just wants to stir the pot a bit...

either way...:roll:

[IceDanceSk8er]

As an American, I don't find it offensive :)

[KCS]

Originally posted by SkateFan123

My major objection to COP is that no one knows what scores counted, that for SkaterA perhaps judges 1, 3, 4, 5, and 9 counted and for Skater B judges 2, 6, 7, 10, and 12 counted. There's no consistency.
[/B]

Is that because the drop the high and low scores, which could be different for each skater?

I actually never thought of that before. I just assumed that the randomly chosen judges would be chosen for an entire event. This makes no sense at all.

Since I couldn't watch Skate America, and I'm going to Skate Canada, which scores are shown in the arena? Do we see what each judge gave, or just the averaged total for technical elements, then the averaged total for each of the five presentation scores?

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by KCS
Is that because the drop the high and low scores, which could be different for each skater?

I actually never thought of that before. I just assumed that the randomly chosen judges would be chosen for an entire event. This makes no sense at all.

Since I couldn't watch Skate America, and I'm going to Skate Canada, which scores are shown in the arena? Do we see what each judge gave, or just the averaged total for technical elements, then the averaged total for each of the five presentation scores?

The high and low scores are removed, then scores are selected at random for each skater. That is my understanding.

It was my understanding the the starting marks from what was planned were announced, then the total for the Free programs. Intially, more info was announced but it took too long. I'll be curious as to what Skate Canada. Please enjoy the event and post how this was handled.

Thanks.

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by Bondo
I'm not sure about that...the skating is the same...aren't people watching for the skating? And the skaters are still ranked so there is still evident competition. I think that many are confused by the scoring won't make skating less watchable.

Skatefans (a Yahoo group) is another board. Many there say their interest is declining because of the fact that judges are allowed to hide from defending their scores. This was the problem at the Pairs event in SLC and the new COP continues to support secret judging. Skaters and fans will all adjust to the new scoring system but not to the lack of accountability on the part of judges.

Declining interest equals lower ratings. Lower ratings will mean less money when the ISU and USFSA negotiate with ABC at the end of the current contracts.

As long as the ISU promotes no accountability for judges and the caller, interest will most likely continue to decline.

I wonder if the referee there did his job and disqualified the French judge in the first place and used the scores from the alternate judge, if there would have been a controversay that resulted in COP?

[KCS]

Originally posted by SkateFan123
[I wonder if the referee there did his job and disqualified the French judge in the first place and used the scores from the alternate judge, if there would have been a controversay that resulted in COP? [/B]

Probably :D

From what I understand, there was no rule stating what should be done if a judge is disqualified. Your solution would have resulted in S/P winning, and reverting to the short program winner would have resulted in B/S winning.

Now there's no way of even telling if a judge was dishonest, let alone a way of getting rid of that judge :roll:

I will post reports on Skate Canada, although my knowledge about skating isn't super technical

I think Skate America looked promising in terms of COP - at least the skaters get a detailed report of where they lost points. And Skate Canada has some great skaters competing, so the competition should be really close and a good test of the new system.

Counting down the hours till Thursday... :P

[duane]

Right now, as a fan, I HATE the new system! For one, I don't understand it, which takes away from the fan's enjoyment (I mean, don't we all love giving our own scores and comparing them with the judges'?). But hey, perhaps in time.

I also wish that the individual scores from the judges were posted--not simply the totals.

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by KCS
Probably :D

From what I understand, there was no rule stating what should be done if a judge is disqualified. Your solution would have resulted in S/P winning, and reverting to the short program winner would have resulted in B/S winning.

Now there's no way of even telling if a judge was dishonest, let alone a way of getting rid of that judge :roll:

I will post reports on Skate Canada, although my knowledge about skating isn't super technical


The rules say that if a judge is disqualified or ill, the alternate judges scores are used. The judge reported being pressured prior to the event ending. Since we don't know what the alternate judges scores were, we'll never know who would have won. The dual gold metal was done to shut the press and public up and I personally think it was a stupid idea.

Just for the record, I thought S/P won and was as surprised as the tv comentators when the scores stated otherwise and I know many thought otherwise. I don't want to argue that point! I'll concede that either team could have won. But we will never know what the alternate scores were and the dual metal was awarded, end of story.

We'll appreciate your SC comments even if they aren't super technical! Thanks.

[rudi]

Originally posted by Calgary88
It's terribly confusing. I sort of understand the basics of it, but when the scores flash up on the screen I have no idea if they scored, well, poorly, etc. I have no idea if they received too generous remarks, weren't given high enough scores, etc.


I totally agree.

I also wish they would show individual scores as well as totals.

Also, don't like the fact that we don't know who is giving what scores.

Glad to see this thread, and see that I am not the only one.

[RobinA]

I find it VERY viewer unfriendly. It's nothing like gymnastics in the way it's presented. It's nothing like any other sport that I know of, because unless you have a terrific memory for numbers, you can't tell when the scores flash up what the heck they mean.

In the old system, as well as gymnastics, diving, synchronized swimming and various other subjective systems, when a score comes up, be it 9.9, 6.0, you know immediately that it means that the competitor did a damn good job and it was going to be hard to beat it. Now you see a 30.8 and a 29.7 and a 93.2 and 136.3 for the current competitor....and what the heck does that all mean? And then there's the base mark, which doesn't seem to have any practical meaning, as in gymnastics. It might be a good system of judging from a strictly scoring perspective, but it robs the viewer of those cherished, "______ got a 6.0!!!!" moments. And the moments of satisfaction when your fave, who has been getting 5.3 for the past four years, finally makes a 5.7. I'm not sure what this will mean for the sport in general, time will tell.

[Roma]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
In the end, it's irrelevent what we think about CoP - it's what the skater's who will be judged under this new system think. So far, they are all saying that they want to give it a chance to work.
I agree. I approach this from my background in statistics, and am always in favor of a sytem that preserves the accuracy of the mathematical calculation, which the new system does. By repeatedly converting numerical scores to ordinals, the old system didn't do that. Having said that, from a spectator's standpoint I totally agree that what the skaters think about the accuracy of the scoring is what matters, not what we think. I agree that it is not at this point as spectator- friendly as the old system, but as someone who attended the first day of Skate America, I was surprised that we spectators could indeed catch on (e.g. by the end of the day, people were applauding marks like 7.38, knowing they were good scores). So if the skaters are willing to give it a try, I'm willing to learn a new system.

[IceDanceSk8er]

There's no question that CoP is a radical paradigm shift for skaters and the fans, I'm wondering if the USFSA and SkateCanada will abandon their systems for CoP. It's like the time when "the powers that be" (the US Government, I think) tried imposing the metric system on us. That didn't go over so well. I'm still trying to figure out what a newton per square meter is!

[Arsenette]

Heck.. USFSA is STILL in the Majority system ;)

My other frustration (of COP) is that if they are going to throw out scores.. take ALL the scores and THEN throw out the top and bottom. When you randomly pick - you could theorhetically take all the high ones from one skater but all the lows from another skater. In that way - the gap between the scores can be substancial!

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by Arsenette
Heck.. USFSA is STILL in the Majority system ;)

My other frustration (of COP) is that if they are going to throw out scores.. take ALL the scores and THEN throw out the top and bottom. When you randomly pick - you could theorhetically take all the high ones from one skater but all the lows from another skater. In that way - the gap between the scores can be substancial!

Did that happen at Skate America? Nebelhorn? I didn't read of any complaints from the competitors. Seems that the fans of the sport are more critical of CoP than the skaters - though I'm sure there are many skaters out there who are confused by CoP as well.

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
Did that happen at Skate America? Nebelhorn? I didn't read of any complaints from the competitors. Seems that the fans of the sport are more critical of CoP than the skaters - though I'm sure there are many skaters out there who are confused by CoP as well.

Unfortunately, we don't know......because the judging is secret! And we'll never know but it could happen.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by SkateFan123
Unfortunately, we don't know......because the judging is secret! And we'll never know but it could happen.

That didn't fully answer my question. Did any skaters complain about their placement from these two events?

But it could happen? So are you saying that it's all right to criticize CoP because it "might" happen?

[Arsenette]

I was just "debunked" in FSU - apparently they randomly choose the judges but keep the scores of THOSE judges (as opposed to randomly picking numbers from all judges throughout the competition). Only from those judges do they then pick out the highest and lowest score and throw them out.

I remember Sasha's loss at Cup of Russia where there was concern that there were higher scores with Vika and lower scores from Sasha taken into account. Now.. that could have been spectator speculation or could have been from the Cohen camp.. but I know I heard some problems with the interim system in that way. Again.. I could be wrong but that is MY concern.

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
That didn't fully answer my question. Did any skaters complain about their placement from these two events?

But it could happen? So are you saying that it's all right to criticize CoP because it "might" happen?

I am not saying that at all.

The only thing I really have against COP is secret judging. If judges have nothing to hide, why not just announce all judges scores?

I did talk to two competitors who are willing to give it a try since they have no choice in the matter unless they retire. But they are both upset with the perception of deception. They cannot openly speak out.

I'm sure the Russian Pairs who won the free but placed second overall might have an opinion. However, expressing it is against the ISU rules now. Anyone expressing opinions against the ISU will not be permitted to participate with the ISU. Sort of like some threads here! Now Board Police, please don't lock out my name for that. I promise not to respond to this again.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by SkateFan123
I did talk to two competitors who are willing to give it a try since they have no choice in the matter unless they retire. But they are both upset with the perception of deception. They cannot openly speak out.

How do I say this....hmmmm...that's a crock!

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
How do I say this....hmmmm...that's a crock!

Download and read the new ISU Code of Ethics from their website. It's all there for the reading.

There were several USFSA and other folks banned or removed from their positions with the ISU for openly making statements not in full support of the new system. That is a fact, not a crock.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by SkateFan123
Download and read the new ISU Code of Ethics from their website. It's all there for the reading.

There were several USFSA and other folks banned or removed from their positions with the ISU for openly making statements not in full support of the new system. That is a fact, not a crock.

Both Ron and Ted were not skaters. Please get your facts straight. Ron went off and formed an organization that went against the rules of the ISU. He was fully aware of the rules when he was appointed as a ISU judge. Ted is a completely different story which I cannot repeat in public. I know both of these men very well and the circumstances for their "removal."

Are you in any way, shape or form involved with figure skating other than being a fan? If not, don't try to pass yourself off as someone in the know.

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
Both Ron and Ted were not skaters. Please get your facts straight. Ron went off and formed an organization that went against the rules of the ISU. He was fully aware of the rules when he was appointed as a ISU judge. Ted is a completely different story which I cannot repeat in public. I know both of these men very well and the circumstances for their "removal."

Are you in any way, shape or form involved with figure skating other than being a fan? If not, don't try to pass yourself off as someone in the know.

www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/ 0,11040,4844-138357-155573-39279-0-file,00.pdf - is the link to the ISU Communication #1221 issued July 30, 2003 and entitled ISU Code of Ethics.

This is the first paragraph from the code:

"Persons and Organizations Subject to this Code This Code applies to all ISU Office Holders1, Officials1, Members and their members2, ISU Employees and Consultants, ISU Commission members, Organizing Committees for ISU Events3and their officials and volunteers, officials and volunteers at ISU sanctioned Member events4, skaters, coaches, trainers, doctors, team attendants, team officials, all other persons claiming or seeking standing as present or prospective participants in any ISU activity, and persons without status or title who engage in any activity in relation to the ISU that is prohibited by this Code."

That means that anyone involved in skating, excluding fans, cannot publicly say anything against the new system. You can read the entire Communication online at the ISU's website.

The two you mentioned were not the only people removed from the ISU. So far, no eligible skaters have spoked out publicly that I am aware of.

My involvement in figure skating has been since the mid-50s. How I am now or have been is, quite frankly, not significant. I am on this thread as a fan, just like you are. I am certainly not an expert but have acquired quite a bit of information during the past 48 years.

Please remember this is a public thread and be nice.

[FSWer]

If you wanted to try to figure the scoring out at home as a fan how wouuld you do it?

[lutzskate]

Originally posted by Bondo
That is how I found out one judge accidentally gave Sasha a .75 for one of her components (all his others were in the 8s) so it brings up the point of how to deal with button pressing mistakes

Very good point. I know in Canada, Sophia Frechette, a synchronized swimmer, lost the Gold medal because a judge entered the wrong score by accident on the computer and then had no way of changing it. Eventually (1 or 2 years later) she got a gold as well, but it does bring up a valid point.

Hopefully as we get more familiar with the scores, we will be able to recognize a good score vs a bad score.

I know right now, at the time of being announced, even the skaters are unsure of what the numbers mean!

I would like, on tv, for the announcers to comment on how much elements are worth. Dick and Peggy did this a bit on ABC this weekend, commenting that a triple triple was worth 9 points.

[FSWer]

Oh that Synchro. skater must of been mad and ready to sue the USFSA.

[lutzskate]

:oops: Oopsy! I meant to say synchro SWIMMER. I have gone back and edited the post. Sorry about that! :oops:

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by Bondo
Well, if you are really fast you can have your chart of element values out and identify everything as you see it, give each move a GOE and then rate the components and use the component factor...you wouldn't have to worry about random selection or high/low marks...so just add together your elements and add in your component product and you have a score to compare to what the skater actually gets. ;) Now it would take a pretty solid person to figure that out in a comparable way I agree, but it is possible with practice.

Umm, wonder if the caller could just announce his calls to the audience to make life easier!

I have not figured out to go about keeping score individually yet. I'm sure if I give it thought, I'll figure something out but why? It's bound to change. I'll just wait it out until they finalize the system and figure out what to do from there!

Of course, if anyone figures it out, let us know!

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by SkateFan123
www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/ 0,11040,4844-138357-155573-39279-0-file,00.pdf - is the link to the ISU Communication #1221 issued July 30, 2003 and entitled ISU Code of Ethics.

This is the first paragraph from the code:

"Persons and Organizations Subject to this Code This Code applies to all ISU Office Holders1, Officials1, Members and their members2, ISU Employees and Consultants, ISU Commission members, Organizing Committees for ISU Events3and their officials and volunteers, officials and volunteers at ISU sanctioned Member events4, skaters, coaches, trainers, doctors, team attendants, team officials, all other persons claiming or seeking standing as present or prospective participants in any ISU activity, and persons without status or title who engage in any activity in relation to the ISU that is prohibited by this Code."

Read the ISU Constitution

[Roma]

Originally posted by FSWer
If you wanted to try to figure the scoring out at home as a fan how wouuld you do it?
I just opened up a new thread in which I posted a cheat sheet for the 2nd mark, and gave a brief explanation of how to compare the 1st mark. I really think this will help - I tested my cheat sheet using several actual scores from Skate America and it worked perfectly.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by Roma
I just opened up a new thread in which I posted a cheat sheet for the 2nd mark, and gave a brief explanation of how to compare the 1st mark. I really think this will help - I tested my cheat sheet using several actual scores from Skate America and it worked perfectly.

Have you reviewed the Content & Criteria presentation on the ISU's website?

[Roma]

My new thread was actually in response to someone who wanted to understand what the scores meant. It won't help anyone who wants to do the judging, just someone who wants to undersatnd what the heck a 2nd mark of 33.29 means.

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
There's no question that CoP is a radical paradigm shift for skaters and the fans, I'm wondering if the USFSA and SkateCanada will abandon their systems for CoP. It's like the time when "the powers that be" (the US Government, I think) tried imposing the metric system on us. That didn't go over so well. I'm still trying to figure out what a newton per square meter is!

I am laughing about your "newton per square meter" comment. How true! I remember a long time ago (like in the early 60s) we were told the metric system was coming to the US.

It is my understanding from reading things on the USFSA site and governing counsel meeting notes that since this is still an interim system (Yet another new system will be employed at Worlds based on a 6.0 scale!) and that since the costs are unbelievably high to convert and utilize this system, that for now, they will stay with the old system. The feeling was that until a permanent new system is put in place, why pass the costs of implimentation onto all clubs to purchase the necessary equipment and that it will be too expensive and confusing to have two systems in the US.

I have heard nothing about what Canada will do. Perhaps someone in Canada can provide information on that.

What do you all think about the COP computers going down last night in the middle of CD at Skate Canada? I understand there was a lengthy delay in the event and scores were all recalculated when the event continued. I was under the impression they had backup computers. I can't believe two computer systems failed.

Having been to many events where the audience and skaters just sat and waited for ABC to go live. I wonder what ABC would do if that occurred during live coverage? In 1992, while in a tv hold awaiting live coverage, the audience did the wave. Peggy convinced Dick to participate. He had a tux jacket and shirt on with deniums! It was pretty funny!

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by SkateFan123
...What do you all think about the COP computers going down last night in the middle of CD at Skate Canada? I understand there was a lengthy delay in the event and scores were all recalculated when the event continued. I was under the impression they had backup computers. I can't believe two computer systems failed.

I didn't hear about the computers, but it doesn't surprise me. I'm still willing to give the new system a try. It would have been a stroke of marketing genius if the ISU had published a viewers guide to CoP rather than watching the fans have a stroke trying to figure it out.

I do find that the scores give me a better perspective in seeing how close skaters are to each other.

[Calgary88]

If there is an announcer who is alerting the judges of moves coming up in the program, what does the announcer do if a skater throws a jump into the program that wasn't planned? How is that addressed?

[SkateFan123]

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
I didn't hear about the computers, but it doesn't surprise me. I'm still willing to give the new system a try. It would have been a stroke of marketing genius if the ISU had published a viewers guide to CoP rather than watching the fans have a stroke trying to figure it out.

I do find that the scores give me a better perspective in seeing how close skaters are to each other.

Boy, have you got an idea on that marketing!!! But first, some scoring genius would have to figure out COP!

I have nothing against learning the new COP in terms of scoring. It will take time to get used to. But there are issues. Such as, what if the caller is wrong? What if the skater planned a specific jump and changed it and the caller blew the call? What if the computers go down and can't be fixed in a reasonable time? There is currently no back up plan for that. Also, it appears to not give flexibility for skaters to add a jump if they missed one previously.

My objection is just to the secrecy. The COP fixes the wrong problem, imho. It does not address cheating judges or federations. And that has been the problem in skating for as long as I can remember.

For years the saying was, "It's not your turn". Everyone knew there was cheating but no one spoke up. More recently, people starting speaking up. It was a fan that taped cheating at Europeans and passed the tape to ABC!

In 1998 before the Ladies event in Philly, Campbell's Soup showed posters with Michelle, Tara and Nicole. Was there any doubt that was who your Ladies Olympic team would be after seeing the ads?

The secret judges now give way to the secret computer. That's the part that I hate. After all, skaters are accountable. They face the press after an event. Why don't judges? Now no one but the secret computer knows what judge places what skater where. And the secret computer selects what scores to count. Umm...what about announcing all scores, (fans will just have to live with not writing them all down!), drop the high and low, then total. I personally think that's a much better system. And for good measure, severe penalties for cheating judges and federations.

Geez, Tanya got banned for life for covering up her ex's role in the Nancy bashing. Cheating judges and federations get minor slaps on the hands. What's wrong with banning cheating judges for life and federations that support them need severe penalties too!

The new system needs some tweaking apparently. And we'll get used to it in time. I just wish I knew what judge gave each skater.

In my opinion, by hiding judges from being accountable they are promoting cheating not stopping it.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by SkateFan123
Boy, have you got an idea on that marketing!!! But first, some scoring genius would have to figure out COP!

I've acquired quite a few presentations about CoP from judges who were involved with presenting the new system to the US Senior skaters in Chicago over the summer. I'm using this material for a book I am writing that includes the 6.0, OBO, CoP, etc. judging systems. If you're interested, I can email you a copy of these chapters when I've finished writing them. I can always use the feedback. You're welcome to private message me with your email address, if you're so inclined.