Hersh: Kwan leaves Skate America empty

[cem]

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/7078441.htmQuote


Quote:

Skate America, opening event of figure skating's Grand Prix series, begins Thursday.

For the first time since 1998, Michelle Kwan is skipping it.

For the first time since 1994, so am I.

Our absences, of course, are related.

Why? Figure skating is in such a mess that Kwan is the only reason to watch it.

Nearly 10 years after the Harding-Kerrigan incident gave skating unprecedented attention and TV exposure, the sport is competitively dead.

This has nothing to do with the fallout from the judging scandal at the 2002 Olympics.

Everyone who has wasted time forming ad hoc committees to protest clandestine judging overlooked a nasty little secret far more important to the future of the sport.

The issue? Lack of talent development in the United States and the rest of the world, as pointed out here Nov. 15, 2002:

"A combination of injuries to established stars and the disconcerting lack of new ones has turned the autumn Grand Prix series into an exercise in tedium."

[Giselle]

:roll: @Phil

[Candy]

Originally posted by Bondo
And if things are just so rotten with Michelle gone...how about criticizing Michelle for not competing. Miss "I'm still around because I love competing" should get the blame for that statement beings such bullocks as she sits home yet another fall just to ho-hum it through Nats and Worlds until she can try for the elusive Olympic gold. But no, we wouldn't want to criticize Michelle, we should criticize everyone else instead.
[/B]

Actually, he already did many articles critcizing Michelle over the years. He criticized her for winning SA over Sarah Hughes in 2001 (Article titled: "Judges Make Sure of Kwan Victory"). After that he criticized her LP and offered up his own music selection for her (he suggested she pays tribute to Sarajevo, in case that is of any interest to you). Last year he criticized her program as being not bold enough (the article title was, to be specific, "Kwan Back, But Boldness Isn't). He also criticized her for going coachless, for not doing 3/3s...actually, he is Kwan hater's best friend. With this particular article...maybe he forgot to take his medication this morning when he wrote it.

Just wanted to point it out so those who dislike Kwan will stay tune for future Hersh articles when he goes back to his old self to pick on her again. Back to lurking now....

[Calgary88]

Every sport goes through dry spells where there isn't a large pack of talented or charismatic athletes that can rivet and dazzle the crowds. I see it in tennis right now compared to ten years ago when there were so many stars in the sport.

In regard to skating, I would partly agree and disagree with Hersh. Look at the ladies singles in the U.S. It's jam packed at the top, with basically the top 5 ladies capable of medaling at Worlds. I think the prospects in ladies singles is exciting.

However, when it comes to mens singles, pairs, and dance, I would have to say it's not as encouraging.

I'm not Canadian but I think there's promise with a lot of new teams and skaters.

Again, every sport hits dry spots.

[MQSeries]

Originally posted by Calgary88
Look at the ladies singles in the U.S. It's jam packed at the top, with basically the top 5 ladies capable of medaling at Worlds. I think the prospects in ladies singles is exciting.


I don't think this is true anymore. Definitely MK and SA are world's medalists material. But below them, I don't see JK, AP, and YeBin anywhere near the world's podium yet, but definitely somewhere in the top 10 at worlds.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Hersh is saying something that most of us already know.

[JDC1]

It is as usual a Michellecentric article, normally he takes her to task but now he misses her, whatever. He does seem to be amazingly ignorant of what the rest of the world is doing. However, I agree with him that the talent pool doesn't seem to be too deep in the US, only Sasha and Michelle (and a clean Angela if that exists this year) have a shot at making the Worlds podium and winning in the GPF. The female skater I'm watching with alot of interest is Carolina Kostner, a little more work on her confidence and ability to "bring it" to competitions and she could be fabulous not to mention all the young Japanese ladies flirting with quads and 3 axels. As for US men, no offense to those who know our top skaters...but really, we don't have ANY depth without a healthy Timmy Goebel even getting a man on the Worlds podium is a long shot. But we have fabulous Jeff Buttle in Canada just on the verge if he can skate clean. Phil suffers from typical "united states tunnel vision" that afflicts most americans at various times in our lives, myself included, so I won't get on my soap box. :-) As for Michelle not loving to compete, ofcourse she does, but only at Nats, Worlds and Olympics and for the time being that's all she has to do. :-)

[duane]

I must say that I agree with Hersh in that this has been a boring/lackluster post Olympic period. I think last season had to have been one of the most boring seasons ever. Michelle, Sarah, and Irina hardly competed, and with the absence of Yagudin and Timothy, the mens discipline basically became "The Plushenko Show".

[IceDanceSk8er]

Phil Hersh is generally right on, although he somewhat overstates the current importance of Kwan to the sport. His analysis of Cohen and Weiss is pretty accurate. He doe see what we all see, which is the decline in the standard of skating today. Hopefully, it is cyclical and we can expect to see some new stars on the horizon.

[SkateGuard]

You must know:
1) I have lived in the Chicago metro area my entire life
2) My family are long-time Tribune subscribers

Phil Hersh has been burnt out about skating since Tara Lipinski went pro. It started with slamming Kwan for being a full-time college student while she was World Champ. He then spent the next four years slamming Kwan at any chance. (And I'm no huge Kwan fan...)

While Phil was doing his Kwan-analysis thing, lots of Chicago skaters started to move up the ranks. Ben Agosto moved to Detroit, started skating with Tanith Belbin. Evan Lysacek won two Junior World medals, Natalie Mecher won two silver medals at Nationals, and the Chicago Jazz have become a force in synchro. Has Phil written about any of these skaters? No. I don't think he knows where Seven Bridges, Glacier, West Meadows, or the Edge (large Chicago-area rinks) are located!

I apologize for this rant, but Phil has been trying so hard to be a national figure skating columnist that he forgot that he lives _in Chicago_.

My parents and I have cancelled our Tribune subscriptions. If I buy a newspaper, it's the Detroit Free Press. Jo Anne Barnas knows how to cover figure skating!

Erin
(who ran into Hersh at 2002 Mids in Northbrook, and didn't even realize it...mainly because there was never an article about the event. But if I ever see him again...I apologize for my actions :twisted: Hoping it's in the middle of Dominick's!)

[loveskating]

I think the article is outrageously absurd...even insulting to skating as a whole...because (1) some of you might recall when US skating was literally dead...after the crash of the plane carrying the entire US team and all the coaches, etc. After that, STILL, there came Janet Lynn, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, Roz Sumners, Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and many other great, great skaters. No one skater is more important or better than skating as a whole, not to me, ever.

(2) Personally, I'm dieing to go to Skate America and see Sasha and A.P. and others...but I can't...and I paid a lot of money to see Campbells!

Seeing skaters live is a whole nuther thing, much better than on television and I hadn't seen Jenny or A.P. or Tim live before Campbells...and I was dieing to see Sasha/Tarasova's new Swan Lake program. Also, I just love seeing skaters develop over the years...its like watching a flower bloom...(3) I've seen Michelle Kwan live many times. I'm quite honestly not paying to see her these days, although I don't mind her being there.

Maybe Mr. Hirsch can convince Michelle to form her own show and hire "competitors" as a backdrop...somehow I don't think she would agree to that!

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by Bondo
The Harlem Globetrotters routine of skating? Michelle goes out there and skates her bland routine program and all the other skaters with tougher programs manage to all fall and dramatically 8O she wins? And how would that be different than the present? ;)

It used to be that Kwan could do no wrong. All she had to do was skate to center ice, bow to each side of the audience and get a 6.0 :)

[loveskating]

Well, the facts are, according to my sources, that at Skate America ALL the good seats are taken...you can't get good seats anymore.

So Hirsch is apparently factually mistaken on the simplest of the facts he claims...the rink will NOT be empty.

[Mel On Ice]

I agree with the poster that said Jo-Ann Barnas is one of the best figure skating reporters out there.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Bondo
The Harlem Globetrotters routine of skating? Michelle goes out there and skates her bland routine program and all the other skaters with tougher programs manage to all fall and dramatically 8O she wins? And how would that be different than the present? ;)

:o :o :o
One does wonder how the word "boring" can accurately be raised in a discussion of this article. I mean, much as I adore the actress, Sophia Loren, I have seen a LOT of movies without her in them over the years...and, wonderful as she is, I'm certain I would have been bored senseless if she were the only show in town...and I am also convinced that the demand put on poor Sophia under such circumstances would far exceed her capacity to produce!:lol:

[SkateGuard]

Originally posted by loveskating
some of you might recall when US skating was literally dead...after the crash of the plane carrying the entire US team and all the coaches, etc. After that, STILL, there came Janet Lynn, Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, Roz Sumners, Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and many other great, great skaters. No one skater is more important or better than skating as a whole, not to me, ever.


:)

I made that point in a letter to the editor to the Tribune in 1998.

I did write to the Chicago Tribune, complaining about the lack of local coverage, and Phil Hersh responded. (I think it's because I mentioned that my family no longer subscribes to the Trib. :twisted: )

Erin
(does anyone know if I could get the Detroit Free Press delivered to my home :P )

[Beth2000]

Bondo,

the reason he picked on Sasha is b/c Michelle wasn't there. I like both skater's btw but, Michelle is my all time favorite skater. So don't hate me for that.

But, come Nationals Hersh will once again pick at Michelle :roll: He hasn't failed yet to pick at her.

[mission99]

I can not beleive how many of you have so much against michelle kwan, its like your obsested with criticizing her every move. If you all dislike her so much stop paying so much attention to her!

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by SkateGuard

While Phil was doing his Kwan-analysis thing, lots of Chicago skaters started to move up the ranks. Ben Agosto moved to Detroit, started skating with Tanith Belbin. Evan Lysacek won two Junior World medals, Natalie Mecher won two silver medals at Nationals, and the Chicago Jazz have become a force in synchro. Has Phil written about any of these skaters? No. I don't think he knows where Seven Bridges, Glacier, West Meadows, or the Edge (large Chicago-area rinks) are located!

SkateGuard...you have to accept one fact: Chicago is not a major training center for figure skating - Period. It doesn't attract the slightest bit of interest from the sports media - local or national. I can say this because I'm originally from Chicago and moved my family to Boston so my daughter could train in a more supportive environment.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by mission99
I can not beleive how many of you have so much against michelle kwan, its like your obsested with criticizing her every move. If you all dislike her so much stop paying so much attention to her!

Oh good grief! I don't dislike Michelle Kwan...it is just that Bondo was pointing out that Hirsch's article is so logically inconsistent its downright FUNNY! Its not MK's fault that Hirsch used her in his article to make his point that skating is competitively dead...but that means its hard to discuss the article without mentioning her at all!

Maybe if many of MK's fans were not so focused on her and defensive about her, constantly accusing everyone of having so much against her, we wouldn't have to talk about her so much?

Or perhaps you agree with this article...you don't think anyone is worth paying to see but Michelle Kwan, and you think those of us who do not agree are "anti-Kwan" or something?

[loveskating]

Hi Skateguard:

It is outrageous, because Agosto, in particular is so incredibly good. So many great skaters have come from Chicago!

Its like the media pays no attention to anyone else, everyone else is a backdrop for a few skaters (even when someone wins against those skaters, the news is not them, but that they beat or challenged __________) and then the media turns around and claims that no one else is a draw and that skating is "competitively dead"!

HELLO! Look in the mirror, Hirsch!

Also, this constant media effort to recreate the Harding/Kerrigan scandal, to foment rivalries and deamonize one skater while trying to create a goddess out of the other skater -- thinking that will be good for business...its like thinking that permanent war would be good for business...and anyway, creating scandal is an evil, dirty trick business...

[bunghodog]

Actually I had a friend who got 6th row seats 4 hours before the skate america. I dont think anyone takes hersh seriosly anymore.

[peaches]

If he only wants to attend when Kwan is present, fine by me. His loss, not mine. He's a quack.

[sashafras]

Can't wait to see his next article!:roll:

How will he live that ludicrous pap down!?

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Bondo
I have nothing "against" Michelle...

Well, you could have fooled me.

[sashathegreat]

I'd like to ask Phil Hersh if he's done eating a crow. :lol: Does it taste good, Phil?

[duane]

It was great seeing Sasha and Jenny perform so well at Skate America.

Still, I dont think Hersh is overstating the importance of Michelle Kwan to the sport of figure skating. Without the headliner, the sport suffers, and Michelle Kwan is the headliner in the sport of eligible figure skating. Her absence at any competition will mean less people will attend or watch. Even while watching Skate America, I was wondering how Michelle would have performed, and how the judges would have scored the competition if Michelle and Sasha had skated evenly. I even think Sasha's win would have been more satisfying to her if she had beaten Michelle--who has owned the Skate America title for years.

Sure, the sport will survive if there were no Michelle Kwan. But right now, more than anyone else, she is the skater who brings more people to the sport, who brings more excitement and anticipation to the sport, and who people want to see.

[Schmeck]

Market-wise, I think Kwan is the only big name in the US right now. Hughes has retired, Slutskaya is injured/ill, and not really a big name here. Cohen just hasn't made it into the mainstream. Not saying she won't, but she's not there yet.

Schmeck, not really agreeing with Hersch (I'd rather die first, LOL) but looking beyond the knowledgeable fan base, into the mainstream

[patsue]

Hey Bondo--Michelle doesn't have to pay anyone to fall--they do it for free!

[Schmeck]

I don't think the media has ignored other skaters, it's just that Michelle has already made an incredible mark for herself. Not saying Cohen won't, but she hasn't yet. The GP Series is finally gaining ground market-wise (at least they're showing the whole series!) so that gives a little clout to the wins there, but the general public doesn't follow the GP, they hear about Worlds, and Olympics. I don't even think the National title means all that much to the average Joe/Joanne.

And remember, I'm not agreeing with Hersch, just pointing out that to the non-rabid skating fan, the skaters that competed at SA were not that well known, Yet...

Schmeck

[speedy]

If and when Sasha wins a few Nats and World titles, then she can claim the star power and recognition that Michelle currently has. Anybody that blames the media for Sasha not having the same recognition as Michelle is seriously grasping at air. I do think Sasha is on her way, but she'll never be a household name until she actually wins some top-level events, especially Worlds. Kwan not being at Skate America certainly didn't HELP its ratings...it's just common sense that people want to see Michelle. Doesn't mean people don't like Sasha, but Michelle's an icon in this sport, whether some people like that fact or not.

[GoldElephant7]

Nice Article :?: :?:

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Bondo
And in what way was that a response to anything I said? How about attempting to be relevant...could you do that?

And speedy, I never said anything about trying for equality in the degree of stardom of Sasha and Michelle. I wasn't blaming the media for Sasha not having the same degree as Michelle, I was blaming the media for giving other skaters disproportionate style of coverage compared to Michelle. Take for example ABC having this segment with Michelle prattling on about various things. It gives them an excuse to talk about Michelle at events Michelle isn't competing at and isn't the news. And Hersh provides another example...he doesn't talk about what is at Skate America...he makes sure to provide the frame of reference that makes Michelle at the center. And I think some articles about Campbell's made it more about Michelle than Sasha in how they related the two. It is an old journalism trick, but not really proper journalism...and it is something that results in Michelle having her stardom accentuated perhaps more than it deserves to be, and hurts the development of other stars from a marketing perspective.


Bondo, seems you and I both have studied journalism -- myself only one semester -- you are quite obviously correct...everything is in reference to Michelle Kwan since 1998, at least. Its not "Butereskaya Wins"...its Butereskaya Beats Kwan...EVEN with Irina, who landed the first 3 lutz/3 loop by a lady, it was "Slutskaya Defeats Kwan" and Irina had some bad runouts."

Anyway, considering that most of the positive press Sasha has gotten has been called "hype" by many posters on the Net ...its rather funny to read that when it comes to Michelle -- and raised in the specific context of this article by Hirsch in which he claims people ought not to go to Skate America or any competition Kwan is not in -- there is supposedly absolutely no hype.

Of course, to her extreme fans (not most of them by a long shot), Michelle can do no wrong, and can never have a bad skate, and everyone who ever beat or even challenged her is a deamon "snot" backed by corrupt judges...and she is INDEED, the only show in town...and what's more, if anyone doesn't agree, they are deamons too.

To me, Michelle is just a very great, even seminal, skater, but only one of many, with her own unique characteristics, who is not skating now as well as she did in the past, and I don't pay to see her anymore, although I think I would if she would skate pro or skate unfettered by amateur rules.

I will always respect Kwan...if she shows up at a skating show 10 years from now with kids and hubby, and sits near me, I will try to start a standing ovation for her (same goes for Tara or Sara or Sasha or many skaters)...but she is NOT a tin God to me, never was, and never will be, and was NEVER the only skater in town, the whole show!

[duane]

Originally posted by loveskating
Bondo, seems you and I both have studied journalism -- you are quite obviously correct...everything is in reference to Michelle Kwan since 1998, at least. Its not "Butereskaya Wins"...its Butereskaya Beats Kwan...EVEN with Irina, who landed the first 3 lutz/3 loop by a lady, it was "Slutskaya Defeats Kwan" and Irina had some bad runouts."

When it comes to reporting any sport, the media always focus on who is most popular (Tiger Woods for golf, Serena Williams for tennis). When it comes to figure skating, the reason everything is in reference to Michelle Kwan is because she is more popular than the other skaters. And why is that? I think 12 National & World titles--and 6 National & World silvers--are the reasons. If it were Sasha Cohen or Irina Slutskaya who had won gold or silver at Worlds for 8 consecutive years, then everything would be in reference to Sasha or Irina.

Perhaps when it comes to talent, Michelle is "only one of many". But when it comes to consistency, popularity, and medals, Michelle is in a league of her own.

[Meredith]

Originally posted by loveskating
Anyway, considering that most of the positive press Sasha has gotten has been called "hype" by many posters on the Net ...its rather funny to read that when it comes to Michelle -- and raised in the specific context of this article by Hirsch in which he claims people ought not to go to Skate America or any competition Kwan is not in -- there is supposedly absolutely no hype.

I found nowhere in his article that Hersh made that statement.

For the record, I am neither skater's camp. Period.

Back to Hersh. I like Hersch. Why? Because he cares enough to write about skating! I may not agree with him. You may not agree with him, but he is knowledgeable about the sport and writes about it year after year in a sports column with huge circulation. To me, that means quite a lot.

It seems that whenever a columnist has the (ummmm) tenacity to write about "our" sport and we do not agree with him, we roast him. Why is that? It is, after all, not only "our" sport; it belongs even to the critics.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
I will always respect Kwan...if she shows up at a skating show 10 years from now with kids and hubby, and sits near me, I will try to start a standing ovation for her

How very big of you. I may misunderstand you, but it sounds like you are being rather condescending.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by duane
If it were Sasha Cohen or Irina Slutskaya who had won gold or silver at Worlds for 8 consecutive years, then everything would be in reference to Sasha or Irina. ... Perhaps when it comes to talent, Michelle is "only one of many". But when it comes to consistency, popularity, and medals, Michelle is in a league of her own.

Well, if so, I would be criticizing that...but in any case, you cannot focus everything on and only reference one skater, and then expect others to have a following! I will personally never forget the total disconnect I felt when Irina was basically bashed for having the unmitigated gall to land the first 3 lutz/3 loop by a lady, ever, and then land a 3 sal/3 loop as well, and instead of allowing skating fans to celebrate that, the news media focused on how Kwan was upset and that Irina had some less than perfect runouts, with the very clear implication that the judges were corrupt!! I found that APPALLING, and I do to his day.

I don't recall anything like this focus by the media in the past...in my recollection, Harding and Kerrigan and Kristi all got a lot of good press, and for different reasons.

But I agree, when it comes to consistency and medals, Kwan is in a league of her own. However, as to her popularity, I think it is exaggerated.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Tapper
How very big of you. I may misunderstand you, but it sounds like you are being rather condescending.

No, I actually mean it. But I don't think that is "big" of anyone...its simply what any skating fan would do, isn't it? Paul Wylie came to an SOI I was at, in a suit, with his wife, part of the crowd, and some fans started doing that for him and it spread throughout the whole rink....it was really, really nice. I think its so great when fans SUPPORT skaters, and don't always demand all this and that from them, when their skating alone is quite enough!

I appreciate all the great skaters, and Kwan has been among the greatest, and has given me personally some really great moments in my life (esp. 2000 and 2001 Worlds LPs and EOE at a pro am and the first pro am after Nagano, her Rach, amazing), and I have loved her skating in the past...and I feel that all the current skaters, including Sasha, are standing on her shoulders...its NOW that I just wish she would go pro for the reasons I have stated...or to become an announcer, or just to move on with her life, whatever she wants, but don't live in the past and don't let things corrupt you, Michelle!

[sashathegreat]

Originally posted by Meredith
Back to Hersh. I like Hersch. Why? Because he cares enough to write about skating!

Ugh. Apparently not anymore. He makes it quite clear in this article, that unless MK competes, he would not cover the competition (and not just ladies singles, mind you, NO ONE in pairs, dance, men's singles, deserve an attention of revered Mr. Hirsh).

Ironically, this season's Skate America competition, entirely dismissed by Phil came out to be the most exciting one in years! US skaters, dissed one by one by PH, managed to win men's and dance titles, and in ladies not only gold, but also silver medals were won, with wonderful performances from Sasha and Jenny.

It's fair to say, that not only absence of Phil's coverage on this great competition was absolutely irrelevant, but MK's not being there didn't take anything away from it either. SA generated a lot of press feedback, created a great buzz among fans, and had the best turn out of spectators in years. Whatever Phil's point was, he got proven wrong.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
No, I actually mean it.


Loveskating, I appreciate your taking the time to clarify your statement for me, and I apologize for misunderstanding your intent. (I'm glad I at least had the sense to ask; I think I should do it more often, and sooner!)

[sashafras]

Loveskating said:
appreciate all the great skaters, and Kwan has been among the greatest, and has given me personally some really great moments in my life (esp. 2000 and 2001 Worlds LPs and EOE at a pro am and the first pro am after Nagano, her Rach, amazing), and I have loved her skating in the past...and I feel that all the current skaters, including Sasha, are standing on her shoulders...its NOW that I just wish she would go pro for the reasons I have stated...or to become an announcer, or just to move on with her life, whatever she wants, but don't live in the past and don't let things corrupt you, Michelle"

You know, that is exactly how I feel, loveskating, and yet you expressed it so eloquently. I have loved Michelle Kwan since she first came on the scene, pony tail and leotards. She has made me cry, gave me goosebumps, kept me company on lonely nights with a colicky baby, and through long deployments of my military husband. She has brought me so much joy, and also despair. I rooted her on through two Olympics, and she fell short of the gold both times. My love and admiration and support has never wavered. But your last sentence, "its NOW that I just wish she would go pro for the reasons I have stated...or to become an announcer, or just to move on with her life, whatever she wants, but don't live in the past and don't let things corrupt you, Michelle" that really sinks into my heart. I agree. It pains me to say this, but I agree. I think it is time for Michelle to let the new young guns take the helm, and bring me more joy, more goosebumps, and wonderful memories of terrific skating. Michelle has her whole life ahead of her to make her mark, and I wish her nothing but happiness and good luck.

[Candy]

Just some reality check for this thread....

Phil Hersh is a writer for for one paper called the Chicago Tribune. But for the fact that this article was posted on various skating boards on the internet, people outside of Chicago (which isn't even the US, but just one city witin the US) most likely would not have known of him or read this article.

Could it be possible that he was writing for Chicago readers only, and therefore, when he said Michelle Kwan is figure skating, he doesn't care what a European might think about that statement, or what any of you who don't live in Chicago would think at all? Do any of you actually subscribe to the Chicago Tribune and are thus the paper's target audience for their advertisements?

The Chicago Tribune is a fine, respectable local paper, Americans probably have heard of it (because they know of Roger Ebert, not Phil Hersh). But it's hardly a national or international paper, and things printed in such a local publication can hardly be said to have power to "hype" anyone (except in Chicago). Now ESPN, National TV networks, USA Today, NY Times, Washington Times, and Sports Illustrated, or the International Herald Tribue, sure, can hype an athlete, but the Chicago Tribune?????

I guess I just want to bring some perspective to all this. If you are not a Chicagoan reading this article, then disagree all you want, but it's to no avail. Who knows, maybe people in Chicago only follow figure skating to the extent that it's about the most well-known skater. Maybe Chicagoans don't know Plushenko from Yagudin, or Cohen from Sokolova. In that case, Phil Hersh will continue to write only about Michelle Kwan until someone else become a household name. Phil Hersh will not care what figure skating means to you (unless if you are a Chicagoan of course.)

Till then, why so much distressed about an article in a Chicago paper???? Leave the Windy City alone. ;)

[SkateGuard]

Originally posted by Candy
Phil Hersh is a writer for for one paper called the Chicago Tribune. But for the fact that this article was posted on various skating boards on the internet, people outside of Chicago (which isn't even the US, but just one city witin the US) most likely would not have known of him or read this article.

Could it be possible that he was writing for Chicago readers only, and therefore, when he said Michelle Kwan is figure skating, he doesn't care what a European might think about that statement, or what any of you who don't live in Chicago would think at all? Do any of you actually subscribe to the Chicago Tribune and are thus the paper's target audience for their advertisements?

The Chicago Tribune is a fine, respectable local paper, Americans probably have heard of it (because they know of Roger Ebert, not Phil Hersh). But it's hardly a national or international paper, and things printed in such a local publication can hardly be said to have power to "hype" anyone (except in Chicago). Now ESPN, National TV networks, USA Today, NY Times, Washington Times, and Sports Illustrated, or the International Herald Tribue, sure, can hype an athlete, but the Chicago Tribune?????

I guess I just want to bring some perspective to all this. If you are not a Chicagoan reading this article, then disagree all you want, but it's to no avail. Who knows, maybe people in Chicago only follow figure skating to the extent that it's about the most well-known skater. Maybe Chicagoans don't know Plushenko from Yagudin, or Cohen from Sokolova. In that case, Phil Hersh will continue to write only about Michelle Kwan until someone else become a household name. Phil Hersh will not care what figure skating means to you (unless if you are a Chicagoan of course.)

Till then, why so much distressed about an article in a Chicago paper???? Leave the Windy City alone. ;)

I am from the Chicago metro area. I have been a loyal Trib reader for decades. I'm even a Cub fan.

1) Ebert writes for the Chicago Sun-Times (the rival paper). The late Gene Siskel wrote for the Trib.

2) Phil Hersh does not write for Chicago fans. He is trying to get a name for himself nationally. Otherwise, he would have been front row center for Ben Agosto (who moved from Chicago in his teens). But Hersh does not consider Agosto a Chicagoan. I don't know why he considers Michelle Kwan one. :roll: (Don't even get me started about the _Chicago_ Jazz!)

People know Phil Hersh because he was all over the place during the Olympics as a "knowledgeable" writer. I saw him on ESPN four times that week. He is known as a skating writer nationally. Plus, the Tribune owns a lot of other newspapers, and those papers publish his articles.

Erin
(who got a letter from Mr. Hersh, and now truly believes he needs to quit the fs beat!)

[sk8law]

Maybe this is the wrong forum - but here goes.
I agree with the writer that skating is a big ho hum .......Atleast the TV coverage is - which is the public perception of the sport. Who wants to see the same 5 skaters do the same thing every weekend???????
AND why do we have events where they only show 50 % or less of the skaters? Lets see, what if we did that to basketball or football, do we really think people would watch if they only got to see what the broadcasters thought were the biggest plays????? And add into that flashbacks to what happened to that team last year - now thats really exciting - miss whats going on at the current event to see old news. Add in elementary lessons on the basics of the sport - every year and you have a very boring, irrelavent , frustrating experience.
Now add to that , using football as an example, a system that televises only 1% of the teams. A system that completly neglects the rest of the sport for those who won bowl games or whatever last year. There is a reason we all prowl these boards - we want to know what is going on in the sport besides what the top 3 or 4 in each discipline are doing. Lets face it - how many times can we watch Sasha or Michelle or whomever do the same program, with the same moves and the same facial expression and hands. For pity's sake , why can't we see some variety!!!!! See the entire events and skip the flashbacks!!!!!

[Rapt2Go]

Hmmmmm. I thought reporters wrote to incite reaction? I think the American public is smart enough to base an opinion on their own. I don't recall PH telling others NOT to go to skating comps because MK would not be there? I read he decided himself not to go because she wasn't there.

I thought he expressed a personal opinion. No different than the opinions expressed by other successful marketing campaigns. I give the American people, non FS afficionados, more kudos with reagrds to forming an opinion than others do, I guess. But then again, I don't take it personally, nor as an insult to my favorite skaters.

On topic -- Jenny rocked and I was sooooooo happy for her to have that skate!

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Rapt2Go
Hmmmmm. I thought reporters wrote to incite reaction? I think the American public is smart enough to base an opinion on their own. I don't recall PH telling others NOT to go to skating comps because MK would not be there? I read he decided himself not to go because she wasn't there.

I thought he expressed a personal opinion. No different than the opinions expressed by other successful marketing campaigns. I give the American people, non FS afficionados, more kudos with reagrds to forming an opinion than others do, I guess. But then again, I don't take it personally, nor as an insult to my favorite skaters.

On topic -- Jenny rocked and I was sooooooo happy for her to have that skate!


Hmmmm...I didn't realize that Hersch was just expressing his own opinion...that is certainly contrary to 101 Journalism...one does not keep a job in journalism by merely expressing their own opinion...journalists are PAID to do research, to verify their facts, to present some semblance of "objective truth" and it takes far less time to write ANY article than it does to do the background work for it.

I thought Hersch was a respected figure and that his views influenced others...certainly within the general sports media, I insist that they do.

But even if Mr. Hersch, who probably makes in a six figure salary, were ONLY stating his own opinion, not advocating, he very clearly stated that he was not going to Skate America because Kwan would not be there...and quite clearly, everyone who went to Skate America, totally disagreed with his "personal opinion".

After reading your post, I wonder why we grant to journalists all kinds of rights that the rest of us do not possess...like the right to withold sources (for instance, Robert Novak leaked a story that reflects a federal felony in outing a CIA covert operator -- but he cannot be prosecuted for refusing to reveal which "senior administration official" told him Wilson's wife was in the CIA)...if anyone else had that information, and did not come forward with it, they could be prosecuted for witholding evidence! Maybe Ben Franklin was wrong about the role of the press in a democracy...since they are all just expressing their "personal opinions."

[sk8law]

Re Biondo's post on TV coverage and boring skating.
I disagree that the type of event is what is limiting TV coverage. I don't see gymnastics or other sports of this nature being covered this way. When is the last time you saw TV coverage of gymnastics where we were blessed with seeing last year's floor routine for someone - the "flashback" they are so fond of. When do we see "up close and personal" for football players at the expense of missing important plays. When there are 18 skaters in an event and TV coverage only shows 5 skaters in the course of an hour - and wastes the rest of the time with inane conversation , flashbacks, biographical information, it all becomes less of a sporting event and more of a fashion show. I love skating. I just want to see it. I agree with Hersch that it is becoming boring. Not because of the absence of Michelle. That I do not agree with.
As to the same programs. Well I still get a charge out of seeing them. I think though, that the general public loses interest in seeing the same programs time after time for a whole year or more. If other skaters were shown and we did not see the same people every weekend then this would not be a factor.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by sk8law
...When there are 18 skaters in an event and TV coverage only shows 5 skaters in the course of an hour - and wastes the rest of the time with inane conversation , flashbacks, biographical information, it all becomes less of a sporting event and more of a fashion show. I love skating. I just want to see it. I agree with Hersch that it is becoming boring. Not because of the absence of Michelle. That I do not agree with. ...

I basically agree...its the SKATING I love too. But its as if the media is trying to sell skating BY ANYTHING other than skating itself, i.e., someone's eternal quest; creating by dirty tricks some EXTREME rivalry in which someone's character and life could be utterly destroyed; SLC was basically set up as a big spy thriller and nationalistic spectacle, etc. etc.

And, IMHO, the demoralizing results of several years of all that are showing because its mostly fake, and thus unsustainable. In other sports, like say baseball, what impacts the sport has been mostly quite real and also HUGE...like integration, war, gambleing, drug use, etc.. If they are going to sell skating by something else, atleast let it be BIG, IMPORTANT, and liberating...not this petty, vicious stuff.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Bondo
Yeah, this is an opinion piece...but the first thing I learned about opinion writing is they require the same if not more factual research as news pieces so that the argument, while subjective, is based on fact and is convincing. This column is just him blabbing on, which while that might work for a small number of people, clearly judged by the reaction doesn't have enough factual elements to be taken seriously by anyone else. That means it is failed as a journalistic work.

Yes, and I learned that part of one's job was to write both news and "opinion" or op ed pieces which the writer herself totally disagreed with! That also turned me off to journalism...my inspiration had been William L. Shrier, who wrote "Berlin Diary" so I thought that getting and telling the truth when no one else did was the holy grail! He was among the first to dig up the truth about what the Nazis were doing to the Jews in the concentration camps.

[sk8law]

Ladies free skate is a 4 minute program. Warm up is 6 minutes. Displaying the scores usually takes about two. Allow an extra 4 minutes or so for the initial skater when the judges confer and set the basemark and there is no way this adds up to an hour for 5 skaters.
That is not the point, though. Very few of these events we watch are "live" They edit out all the downtime, so there is no reason why they cannot use this time more productively and show additional skaters. .
I agree with loveskating that the media has created issues that do not exist, that detract from skating. At the same time, while covering the few stars, the media fails to cover the sport. If someone is not in the top 5 or 6 - no coverage. Look at the USFSA envelopes - many skaters are in there who get no coverage.
Maybe the skating channel is the answer. But I don't see why mainstream coverage cannot improve. We are losing viewers and losing interest in the sport from the mainstream. That is not good for the sport.

[Rapt2Go]

I didn't realize that Hersch was just expressing his own opinion...that is certainly contrary to 101 Journalism...one does not keep a job in journalism by merely expressing their own opinion...journalists are PAID to do research, to verify their facts, to present some semblance of "objective truth" and it takes far less time to write ANY article than it does to do the background work for it.

I always take articles presented like that as opinion. In fact I take most everything I read, in print or on message boards, as opinion. Although I haven't had Journalism 101, I do know jounalists are expected to do research, verify facts and present objective truth. But I also know that one can find "facts" to back up an pre-existing opinion rather than using facts to form an opinion.

I recognize that occurs in all forms of media and even on message boards! So unless what I'm reading is known to be absolute fact, like perhaps information regarding drug interactions with prescription medicines, I just view it as someone's perspective.

I'm not saying I think the media hasn't affected skatings perception. I just don't give much credence to the impact of this article on the Average Joe.

[Tapper]

I wonder how Phil H. would respond to the commotion his article created on this board. I tend to look at his article the way I look at theatre and film critics. A critic is only good for one thing, and that is giving you a hint at whether or not you may or may not want to spend your money on an event. And you have to learn which critics give you the best hints. As for me, now I'm totally confused about Hersch, because I figured he could never say anything nice about Kwan, didn't like her, and would pan her no matter what she did. Now he turns around and indicates that actually she IS figure skating to him. So, who knew he really liked Kwan? Just goes to show ya!
Anyway, for those of you who are feaked out and bummed out by his liking Kwan and thinking she's IT, and for ignoring your favorite skater (while suddenly adoring mine!), my advice is to simply dismiss him as a critic you disagree with and go ahead and despise him. Despising a critic who disagrees with you can produce quite a rush! Actually, I see that some of you are doing that already!
Me? I have a new-found respect for the critic whom I used to despise! I didn't know he had such good taste.

[sk8ingMom]

Me? I have a new-found respect for the critic whom I used to despise! I didn't know he had such good taste.........

..... I love your post and your are definitely correct....

[loveskating]

Well, honesty is always nice to see. Finally, someone has the guts to admit that they totally agree with that Hersch article!

Its ok with me if you all only love one skater -- Michelle Kwan -- what is not ok with me is if you demand everyone else agree with you and if you deamonize them if they don't.

Of course, you know, don't you, that Hersch was factually very inaccurate...the rink at Skate America was very far from empty...

[Rachel]

The arena at SA was also very far from full. Ticket sales were well below expectations and the arena was never even close to being full. It was, at best, half-full, and then only for the ladies.

Phil Hersch has always said that he likes Michelle Kwan and that she deserves everything she has, except for Skate America 2001 title. He clearly expects a lot more from her than he does from others; he has said so many times and has criticized her when he felt the need. Of course, when he wrote THOSE columns, there were people who thought his articles were thoughtful and on point, but now his opinion is out of place in a newspaper.

Phil Hersch is a columnist, which means he gets to write about whatever he likes in whatever way he likes, barring editorial intervention. Guess what? He expresses his OPINION in them, just as other columnists express opinions in their columns. Whether you agree or disagree with him, I highly doubt that he will lose any sleep over it and I also highy doubt that any of the 15 or so people who read his column about figure skating care have any clue that they are being subjected to more of the Kwan-worshipping media propaganda that haw apparently swept a country that couldn't care less about figure skating.

But I keep forgetting--if you like Michelle Kwan at all, you are be definition a warped fan who loves only her and no one else, and you think she is perfect in every way, so Phil Hersch is a bad guy becayse he criticizes her. And if you don't like Michelle Kwan, you are demonized in some way by some mysterious group of people, none of who apparently post here or anywhere that I ever read, but must exist because they certainly do create a lot of angst, and Phil Hersch is a bad guy because he recognizes that Michelle Kwan sells a heck of a lot more skating tickets than anyone else on the ice.

Go, Phil! You must be doing something right!

[Kemy]

Usually aren't the finals more sold out than the series comps anyways, since the bigwigs are going against each other...not just two bigwigs against the hopefuls?

[HSF]

Bondo, I was at SA two of the three years it was held in Colorado Springs. Although the arena wasn’t packed to capacity, there were great crowds for all the events.

The first year I went the main draw for me was Michelle Kwan. Much to my delight I also got to see a 13 year old Sarah Hughes . My comment about Sarah after seeing that competition was “she has the heart of a champion.”

When I went the third year, I was soooo excited because I was going to see Michelle, Sarah, and Sasha. I had never seen Sasha skate “live.” Much to my delight, Sasha landed her quad at one of the practices.

Although there was good attendance at SA in Colorado Springs, I would be surprised if the attendance wasn’t higher for a GPF. The field for the GPF consists of the 6 top skaters in all 4 disciplines. Comparing a GP competition to the GPF is rather like comparing apples and oranges.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Originally posted by Rapt2Go
Hmmmmm. I thought reporters wrote to incite reaction? I don't recall PH telling others NOT to go to skating comps because MK would not be there? I read he decided himself not to go because she wasn't there.

I thought he expressed a personal opinion. No different than the opinions expressed by other successful marketing campaigns.

Exactly, Phil's piece is written as an opinion piece, or rather an "insights," thought some of you may question his insightfulness. Contrary to what some of you think about journalism (sorry, the real world of writing does not operate on what you may have learned in one or two journalism classes. :roll: ), his writing fits in well within the rubric of a news analysis, one-sided as it may be.
He's been following the sport for nearly 23 years and is certainly qualified to offer his opinion. I'd say from the reaction of this forum, he's done his job pretty well: He's elicited thought--some may say outrage--and offered what he has seen in a post-Olympics skating world. Last year, he actually said some interesting things regarding michelle, sarah, and sasha:
http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2001/082002.shtml

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Bondo
Rachel, one of the points discussed earlier is that, even though this is an opinion piece, it isn't excused from certain standards of journalism. And a few of us had issues with whether he was meeting those standards in this article. That is the issue far beyond whether he is pro/con-Michelle.

P.S. Any chance the low turnout is because they held it in Reading? I tell you if it was Colorado Springs we would have filled it...you'll see come GPF (or I'll eat vegetarian crow). Michelle won't be at GPF so it will be fair comparison.

First of all, I read the earlier comments, but I didn't bother to reply to them, as quite frankly I found them rather misguided, to put it nicely. Hersh's piece fits exactly within the parameters of his column requirements. There's a guy at my local paper who writes the same sort of columns in the same way; he is also a sportswriter and he has won every award possible for a sportwriter. He earned the right to state his opinions because he knows the sports he covers, he writes extremely well, and people care about what he thinks because he is both knowledgable and interesting. The same is true of Phil Hersh. There's a difference between a reporter and a columnist. If you want my credentials for saying so, I'll be happy to throw them out there, but I think that the whole idea of "I know Phil Hersh's job because I have done/taken/written/read XXXXX" is ridiculous. Unless we all happen to be in the business of newspaper writing or publishing, we're all readers, and that's it.

I have no idea if having SA in Reading made a difference or not. For me, it was a big relief, as it was much closer to home and much cheaper, too. Most of the people I knew who were in Reading live in the East and were quite happy not to go back out West again. I'm not sure why Colorado Springs would be so much more of a draw; there isn't a whole lot there to recommend it over Reading. I am sure that the GPF will have higher attendance than SA, for reasons others have stated, so I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. If you think it's a Reading vs. Colorado Springs problem, there's always attendance from Spokane to consider.

[Rachel]

Yes, I know what's in Colorado Springs. I've been there several times. But....Colorado is not all that accessible for most skating skating fans (the population of the country being dispersed as it is) and there isn't a whole lot there to draw them in besides skating. Once you've been to CS, you've been to CS.

The 2002 SA in CS set an attendance record. On Saturday night in CS in 2002, there were 8,493 people in the stands. In Reading on Saturday night in 2003, there were less than half that. Is that because it was in Reading? Maybe. Is it because Worlds was also on the east coast and most east coast fans spent all their money and vacation time on that? Possibly. Was it because Michelle Kwan wasn't there? Sure was the consensus of everyone I talked to--all of whom, may I point out, were there and so were not refusing to go because Kwan wasn't competing. It was simply accepted as a given--that's life.

As for your journalism class, you would deserve less than A if you turned in that sort of column--unless you were taking a column writing class, which I find doubtful. I took all my journalism classes in grad school and even there I wasn't offered a course in column writing. I did take a class on feature writing, which was very different from my classes in general journalism, which were very different from my classes in editing. I got As in every one; I've even been allowed to teach a couple of them since then. Then there's my professional creds, which again I consider pointless to this discussion, as none of us are professional newspaper writers and are, therefore, readers--no more and no less. I see nothing in that column that would make me give it less than A--and I am qualified to grade student journalism assignments, as I said--IF that piece were written for the appropriate class.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Candy
Just some reality check for this thread....

Phil Hersh is a writer for for one paper called the Chicago Tribune. But for the fact that this article was posted on various skating boards on the internet, people outside of Chicago (which isn't even the US, but just one city witin the US) most likely would not have known of him or read this article. ...
Here's another reality check for this thread, since this information is inaccurate. Maybe you are unaware, but Phil Hersh's column is reprinted in newspapers across America, not only Chicago. People in many other cities read his column because it is printed in their local newspaper as well, not just because there is a link on the internet to the Chicago Tribune.

Philip Hersh can write about whatever he wants in his skating column & people can agree or disagree. It seems like the purpose of writing a column is to share some ideas, generate discussion or encourage the reader to analyze their own views in a particular area, & he is doing just that.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Rachel
The arena at SA was also very far from full. Ticket sales were well below expectations and the arena was never even close to being full. It was, at best, half-full, and then only for the ladies.

Phil Hersch has always said that he likes Michelle Kwan and that she deserves everything she has, except for Skate America 2001 title. He clearly expects a lot more from her than he does from others; he has said so many times and has criticized her when he felt the need. Of course, when he wrote THOSE columns, there were people who thought his articles were thoughtful and on point, but now his opinion is out of place in a newspaper.

Phil Hersch is a columnist, which means he gets to write about whatever he likes in whatever way he likes, barring editorial intervention. Guess what? He expresses his OPINION in them, just as other columnists express opinions in their columns. Whether you agree or disagree with him, I highly doubt that he will lose any sleep over it and I also highy doubt that any of the 15 or so people who read his column about figure skating care have any clue that they are being subjected to more of the Kwan-worshipping media propaganda that haw apparently swept a country that couldn't care less about figure skating.

But I keep forgetting--if you like Michelle Kwan at all, you are be definition a warped fan who loves only her and no one else, and you think she is perfect in every way, so Phil Hersch is a bad guy becayse he criticizes her. And if you don't like Michelle Kwan, you are demonized in some way by some mysterious group of people, none of who apparently post here or anywhere that I ever read, but must exist because they certainly do create a lot of angst, and Phil Hersch is a bad guy because he recognizes that Michelle Kwan sells a heck of a lot more skating tickets than anyone else on the ice.

Go, Phil! You must be doing something right!

Actually, Rachel, attendance at skating competitions and shows has been in decline for some time...and I read there was a rather dramatic drop in kids signing up for lessons at rinks across the nation after SLC...so if the rink at Skate America was far from full, and I agree, it was, that says nothing about Kwan one way or the other. It was far from full when Kwan was there, as well.

So you will have to come up with very specific comparisons as between last year and this year and with controls for things like the economy and the weather to prove that!

But Hersch's POV specfically was that since Kwan would not be there, he would not even go to Skate America...obviously, if all skating fans agreed with Mr. Hersch, then the rink would have been empty! So clearly, many -- by your own admission, at least half -- do not agree with him...for them, MK is not the only show in town. "...leaves rink empty" is in the thread title, remmeber? Empty does not include fans who even would go, despite missing Kwan being there!

But did Hersch cause angst? It doesn't even cause me angst that people who clearly only like Michelle Kwan, not skaters or skating as a whole, don't just straight up say so...and instead clothe their own personal preferences, like Hersch, with some absurd claim of 'objectivity' they have invented and which they assume gives them the right to bash anyone who does not share their view of Kwan! I think its funny AND disgusting.

[Kemy]

I haven't seen any bashing here and don't think that bashing belongs here...Everyone, on both sides of this debate, have been civil. I think if you feel that someone here has been bashed for their opinion, you need to take it up with the moderator.

Usually when someone opens a topic for debate, you will have dissent amongst the replies. Why would you even bring it up if you knew everyone would agree with you. You will try to convince people of one thing, while they, in turn, will try to convince you of another. That's the nature of debate. It's not bashing.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
Its ok with me if you all only love one skater -- Michelle Kwan -- what is not ok with me is if you demand everyone else agree with you and if you deamonize them if they don't.

That's a gross generalization. Has anyone on this topic claimed they only love Michelle Kwan, and no other skater? Just because she's the main draw for some doesn't mean that her fans don't also appreciate other skaters. For me, yes, she is the main attraction. Does that mean that I don't care about the other skaters? No. I love skating!

I've actually enjoyed this discussion... mainly because I've learned something about myself. If an ice show were coming through town today and it didn't have either Michelle Kwan or Dorothy Hamil in it, I probably wouldn't consider buying a ticket! Would I get a charge out of seeing the other skaters? You bet. But it takes a "main attraction" for me to spend that kind of money and give up that kind of time. So, I guess I agree with Hersh even more than I previously realized. But, don't put me in the category of loving one skater, and one skater only.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by loveskating
Actually, Rachel, attendance at skating competitions and shows has been in decline for some time...and I read there was a rather dramatic drop in kids signing up for lessons at rinks across the nation after SLC...so if the rink at Skate America was far from full, and I agree, it was, that says nothing about Kwan one way or the other. It was far from full when Kwan was there, as well.

Excuse me? You were the one who said it was far from empty. Now you are agreeing that it was far from full? And you are saying it was far from full when Michelle Kwan was there? Was where, as she has never appeared in Reading as far as I know? The last SA I went to in which Michelle Kwan appeared, a new attendance record was set and the arena WAS full; that was a mere two years ago, apparently during the decline. There were more people in attendance for SA last year than this year; the arena in Spokane was considerably more full than the one in Reading.

Originally posted by loveskating
So you will have to come up with very specific comparisons as between last year and this year and with controls for things like the economy and the weather to prove that! .

I will? I have yet to see anyone on this thread provide any evidence to back up their opinions that Phil Hersh has exceeded the bounds of his profession, or that he is wrong in anything he said. But suddenly *I* have to provide solid evidence of my assertions?

Fine. Last year, there were more people in attendance at SA than this year. This is indisputable. The weather was comparable. This is also indisputable. The economy was just about the same then as it is now. That is arguable, but certainly it will be an argument about degrees rather than overall status.

And your argument to the contrary would be....? Please provide the same solid evidence and controls you are asking of me.

Originally posted by loveskating
But Hersch's POV specfically was that since Kwan would not be there, he would not even go to Skate America...obviously, if all skating fans agreed with Mr. Hersch, then the rink would have been empty!.

I'm sorry, but did someone say at some point that all skating fans would agree with Phil Hersh? Did anyone say that Michelle Kwan is the end all and be all for every skating fan on the planet?

What Phil said was that *he* found skating boring without her. And what I am saying is that a) he had a perfect right to say that, within the bounds of his profession and b) it is quite apparent that many people agree with him. At no point did I say or imply that every single skating fan in the world did. After all, *I* went to SA, so clearly I did not agree with him for my own skating preferences. My point was not that he was right, but that many people share his sentiments.

Originally posted by loveskating
So clearly, many -- by your own admission, at least half -- do not agree with him...for them, MK is not the only show in town. "...leaves rink empty" is in the thread title, remmeber? Empty does not include fans who even would go, despite missing Kwan being there!.

By my own admission? Huh? Half of whom? I didn't say that half the skating fans in the US went; I said that the arena was half full at best. It's a small arena. There were 4,000 people there on the most crowded night. By the standard of international skating competition attendance in the US, that IS leaving the rink empty. According the the EPSN FS audience profile, 54% of the total population of the US age 12 and over is interested in figure skating and 70% of women in the US consider themselves figure skating fans. Where was everybody?

Originally posted by loveskating
But did Hersch cause angst? It doesn't even cause me angst that people who clearly only like Michelle Kwan, not skaters or skating as a whole, don't just straight up say so...and instead clothe their own personal preferences, like Hersch, with some absurd claim of 'objectivity' they have invented and which they assume gives them the right to bash anyone who does not share their view of Kwan! I think its funny AND disgusting.

You've posted 13 times on this thread, but you don't think that Phil Hersh caused you any angst? If not he, then who? I haven't seen any raving Kwaniacs on this thread making any absurb claims or bashing you for not agreeing with their view of Michelle Kwan. This is a thread about Phil Hersh's column, not Michelle Kwan. Perhaps I've missed some posts. Could you please point me to the ones that make absurd claims of objectivity while bashing someone else for not agreeing with a personal view on Michelle Kwan?

A lot of figure skating fans seem to think that claims of objectivity will clothe their personal obessions, and that if they provide enough pseudo-analysis of fans, the media and anything else regarding a specific skater all while insisting that it has nothing to do with the skater him or herself, it will fool everyone. That applies both to fans who are blindly devoted and to fans who are anything but. It doesn't really fool anyone; obsessions tend to come through, one way or another.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Bondo
Well, you don't need to tell me about how lame Colorado Springs is after a short visit. Having lived here for going on 20 years I am quite ready to leave after college. But hey, if Pikes Peak doesn't float your boat one can always visit the Focus On The Family Visitor Center :roll:.

FYI, I've been there more than once (as I said), and some of the stays were longer than others. I used to work for the Air Force; my husband still does. CS is, to me, an Air Force town and the home of NORAD, not the home of the Figure Skating Hall of Fame--although I have been there, too. I've been to two SAs in CS. And I've been up Pike's Peak (real women don't need guardrails, but an oxygen tank would be nice) and to the Garden of the Gods and the Academy and the Oly Center, blah blah blah. Somehow I missed the Focus on the Family Center :p. CS is not a bad town, but then, neither was Reading. Neither of them are places I would go out of my way to visit for fun, but both were quite nice while I was there.

Originally posted by Bondo
To resolve a bit from the debate about focusing on Michelle...I asked my professor what she thought and she was mixed. There is reason to emphasize Michelle (although she did think that Sasha also would be notable) but also there is some caution needed about keeping the report fair/balanced. My differing from this is I tend to fall more on the fairness side of the spectrum than the attention grabbing side.

What, you mean your professor didn't jump up and down and tell you what a piece of trash it was? What a surprise. And again, it is not a report; it is a column, written by a columnist. A columnist provides commentary and analysis, not a report of who, what, when, where, why. Was she aware that it was a column, not a report? Is your professor a casual skating fan, which is, I believe, the target audience for Phil Hersh's column? Was your professor familiar with Michelle and Sasha and the GP before seeing this article?

Originally posted by Bondo
Hehe, couldn't you have just named me instead of just discribing your view of my post in the other thread? ;)

Hehe, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you are not the sole focus of my posts, although I find it interesting that you believe you are. I'm not sure what other thread you are referring to. If I had wanted to comment on a post in another thread, I would have done so in the other thread.

[loveskating]

Fine, ok, some of you are saying that Hersch's article had NOTHING to do with Michelle Kwan being at Skate America or not being at Skate America, and that an intelligent discussion would not include her? OK, arguendo.

Sorry, but I don't believe it is obsessive to post 13, now 14 times when a nationally known sports writer I have read and respected somewhat in the past tells me and everyone else NOT to go to a USFSA international competition -- for ANY reason! Minimal, that just seems like it would upset the USFSA a lot, since they have to pay a lot of money just to bring us all the competition, not to mention supporting a lot of skaters.

Rachel, thanks for explaining that attendance at Skate America was down from last year; but now I ask you, wasn't attendance at 2002 Skate America down from the previous year, as well? I think I read that it was...but you tell us. My only point was just that if one is going to claim that attendnce was down at Skate America because, say, Kurt Browning wasn't there, then they would have to produce a lot more analysis than just the attendance numbers.

But the rink was not empty...that I am pretty sure is a fact, although I only saw lots of people on television. Didn't Hersch say the rink would be left empty? Maybe not.

BTW, when Gannon asked Button about the "conventional wisdom" and Button responded that "holes have a way of filling up" this is what they were talking about, IMHO. Think water; think Mississippi; think Yangtse; think Nile..."nature LOVES NOTHING better than a hole" said Toni Morrison, Nobel prize winning author.

[Kemy]

Originally posted by loveskating

Rachel, thanks for explaining that attendance at Skate America was down from last year; but now I ask you, wasn't attendance at 2002 Skate America down from the previous year, as well? I think I read that it was...but you tell us. My only point was just that if one is going to claim that attendnce was down at Skate America because, say, Kurt Browning wasn't there, then they would have to produce a lot more analysis than just the attendance numbers.

Originally posted by Rachel
Excuse me? You were the one who said it was far from empty. Now you are agreeing that it was far from full? And you are saying it was far from full when Michelle Kwan was there? Was where, as she has never appeared in Reading as far as I know? The last SA I went to in which Michelle Kwan appeared, a new attendance record was set and the arena WAS full; that was a mere two years ago, apparently during the decline. There were more people in attendance for SA last year than this year; the arena in Spokane was considerably more full than the one in Reading.

[berrybarn]

I don't why you expect others to provide specific examples for their reasoning when you seem to just arbitrarily plug in literary/cultural references to boost your own.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by loveskating
Fine, ok, some of you are saying that Hersch's article had NOTHING to do with Michelle Kwan being at Skate America or not being at Skate America, and that an intelligent discussion would not include her? OK, arguendo.

Who said that? I must have missed it. Links, please.

Originally posted by loveskating
Sorry, but I don't believe it is obsessive to post 13, now 14 times

Really? But I didn't say that you were obsessive for posting so many times on this thread. I said that I found it hard to believe that you would post 13 times in a thread about an article when said article didn't cause you any angst, as you claimed in your 13th post.

Originally posted by loveskating
a nationally known sports writer I have read and respected somewhat in the past tells me and everyone else NOT to go to a USFSA international competition -- for ANY reason!

Is that what he said? I must have missed the part where he told us not to go or I most certainly would have stayed home. I always do whatever Phil tells me to do. Doesn't everyone? I'm surprised the USFSA didn't publicly ban him from all competitions immediately for being personally responsible for poor ticket sales in Reading. But maybe they've done it privately.

Originally posted by loveskating
Minimal, that just seems like it would upset the USFSA a lot, since they have to pay a lot of money just to bring us all the competition, not to mention supporting a lot of skaters.

Perhaps. But I have great faith in the USFSA to worry about Phil Hersh's columns, if they see fit to do so, all by themselves.

Originally posted by loveskating
Rachel, thanks for explaining that attendance at Skate America was down from last year; but now I ask you, wasn't attendance at 2002 Skate America down from the previous year, as well? I think I read that it was...but you tell us. My only point was just that if one is going to claim that attendnce was down at Skate America because, say, Kurt Browning wasn't there, then they would have to produce a lot more analysis than just the attendance numbers.

Here you are:

http://www.usfsa.org/skatamer02/news/attendance-record.htm

It seems only fair that since I have provided the above link and some statistics from ESPN that were thoughfully provided for me by the USFSA in Reading (but don't tell Phil Hersh I went; he gets really mad when we disobey his direct orders), that I should get to see some solid evidence supporting the contention that Hersh is wrong. When I see your evidence, it will give me a model to follow, so I will know what kind of analysis you will find most compelling, and I will supply it forthwith, as best I can.

Originally posted by loveskating
But the rink was not empty...that I am pretty sure is a fact, although I only saw lots of people on television. Didn't Hersch say the rink would be left empty? Maybe not.

I believe that Phil Hersh was engaging in the fine art of hyperbole.

Hyperbole: A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect (Dictionary.com)

I highly doubt that Phil thought so little of his readers that he expected them to stay home because he said he wasn't going and expected them to take a reference that is clearly not meant to be taken literally, literally.

But there you are. You just never know how people will take things. As I said earlier, by the standards of international figure skating events in the US, the arena was empty. But I suppose some people might insist that I was trying to say NO ONE was there. Including me, obviously, if NO ONE was there. But I was there. I'm becoming confused.

Originally posted by loveskating
BTW, when Gannon asked Button about the "conventional wisdom" and Button responded that "holes have a way of filling up" this is what they were talking about, IMHO. Think water; think Mississippi; think Yangtse; think Nile..."nature LOVES NOTHING better than a hole" said Toni Morrison, Nobel prize winning author.

Thank you for providing Toni Morrison's credentials. I've met the woman twice and she never breathed a word to me on the subject of figure skating. She talked about writing. But that was long before she won her Nobel Prize, so perhaps she's expanded her horizons since then.

And thank you as well for the list of some of the great rivers of the world. Personally, when I think of holes, my mind tends to run more toward the Grand Canyon, which is actually a hole rather than a big water-filled riverbed, but that's what makes communication so wonderful--you are exposed to so many different viewpoints.

As for what Dick Button and Terry Gannon said, well, there is further proof that two people can read the same things and see it in two completely different ways. What I see is an admission that there IS a hole . . . . which seem to me to be pretty much what Phil Hersh said.

[kurtfan]

<<What Phil said was that *he* found skating boring without her. And what I am saying is that a) he had a perfect right to say that, within the bounds of his profession and b) it is quite apparent that many people agree with him.>>

I'm sorry, and by all means I'm not trying to slam anyone. But I don't see, at all what the big woop is about Michelle Kwan.
I mean really. I just laugh at all these post! You all just tear each other up! Over what!! Someone you don't even know. Skating by all means would do just fine without Michelle Kwan all mighty.
Everyone has made her into this perfect, do no wrong, beet all who compete against her little skater. EVEN though she HAS been beaten yet when that did happen we all heard some excuse. I'm sorry, I just don't get it. There are SO many skaters past AND present who are just as good a skater as her. I don't see anything "special, exquisite (my favorite by the way) perfect about her. Yes, she is a great skater, as ALOT of other skaters are. This kind of "fighting has gone back as far as Tara, you know, the girl who WON GOLD over Michelle. Now it's Michelle and Sasha. Not to mention Sarah, ya know, the other girl who WON GOLD over Michelle ;) Time to hang up those skates if ya ask me. She lollie gags all season then when it's time to skate for national title or world title she's all of the sudden "it's a dream to win my 7th title" BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. The whole american dream video segment. Gag! Sorry guys, had to get that off my chest. Just getting a little tired of it all. Skating like we knew it folks is going away :(
and no matter how much we don't want to believe it, well just look at shows, competitons have gone down in the last few years. Let's face it, Michelle is, has been old news to alot of people. We are all getting tired of the same swan lake type skating she continues to do year after year after year.
Thanks and have a great day ;)

[Tapper]

Originally posted by kurtfan
Time to hang up those skates if ya ask me.

Those who don't like Michelle will ask you.
Those who do like Michelle won't ask you.
So, big deal!:??

PS, I won't ask you!

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Rachel
Is that what he said? I must have missed the part where he told us not to go or I most certainly would have stayed home. I always do whatever Phil tells me to do. Doesn't everyone?

Thank you for providing Toni Morrison's credentials. I've met the woman twice and she never breathed a word to me on the subject of figure skating. She talked about writing. But that was long before she won her Nobel Prize, so perhaps she's expanded her horizons since then.

What I see is an admission that there IS a hole . . . . which seem to me to be pretty much what Phil Hersh said.

Rachel,
What an intelligent, witty, and insightful post! Beautifully done!
You must be a writer, no?

[duane]

Originally posted by kurtfan
This kind of "fighting has gone back as far as Tara, you know, the girl who WON GOLD over Michelle.

Since that time, Michelle has won 6 consecutive National titles, and 4 World titles.

Time to hang up those skates if ya ask me.

Well, if ya ask me, I'd rather the reigning National and World champion to hang in there for at least a couple more years. ;)

[loveskating]

Originally posted by loveskating
BTW, when Gannon asked Button about the "conventional wisdom" and Button responded that "holes have a way of filling up" this is what they were talking about, IMHO. Think water; think Mississippi; think Yangtse; think Nile..."nature LOVES NOTHING better than a hole" said Toni Morrison, Nobel prize winning author.


Originally answered by Rachel
Thank you for providing Toni Morrison's credentials. I've met the woman twice and she never breathed a word to me on the subject of figure skating. She talked about writing. But that was long before she won her Nobel Prize, so perhaps she's expanded her horizons since then.

What a cheap shot--I never claimed in my post that Toni Morrison spoke to me, that I met her, or that she spoke of figure skating--and all my posts in this thread have included at least an implied acnowledgement that FOR KWAN FANS there is a hole when Kwan is not skating...clearly...and Morrison's poetic statement on the nature of holes came to mind...what did you want me to do, quote Morrison and then not attribute Morrison--then you could accuse me of stealing her words to make my point--all I've tried to do is challenge the SIZE and overall significance of that hole as GREATLY EXAGGERATAED by Hersch and you totally refuse to see that.

In regard to Kwan fans, there are probably two categories, those who will not pay for skating events unless she is there skating, and those who will, but will miss her terribly.

I am, however, not a Kwan fan anymore and there is therefore no hole at all for me by her not being at Skate America...so SHOOT ME...I am actually in the middle, because for a lot of people who have posted, what I see is that they do not want Kwan there and consider her a detriment to skating...whereas in my case, I don't mind at all if she is there, but I don't pay money to see her ANYMORE--again, SHOOT ME, as to you that clearly makes me some evil person who deserves the kind of cheap shots your post was full of!

BTW, on a SIDE POINT--for your information, I have met Toni Morrison, but only once...and we talked very briefly of smoking (she asked me for a cigarette) and of how to get clothes for Rubinesque women (since she had just spoken for several hours on writing, and had even read from Beloved before it was published, specifically, the part where Baby Suggs is preaching to love yourself, we did not talk of writing)...and while I never claimed she said anything about figure skating per se, as I'm sure you know, she did write a figure skating scene into her novel, "Beloved".

[berrybarn]

Well, Toni Morrison may have a quote about holes and there may be a figure skating scene in Beloved, but I still don't see how the two have anything to do with each other or this discussion. I just think if you ask a poster to be specific in her comments, maybe you should to.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by loveskating
all I've tried to do is challenge the SIZE and overall significance of that hole as GREATLY EXAGGERATAED by Hersch and you totally refuse to see that.

I do? I thought that was one of the main points I was addressing all along here. I supplied an argument and evidence in support of Hersh's position that the hole is quite large. In spite of this, I have yet to see any acknowledgment of the possibility that Phil Hersh might be right or any evidence to support the contention that Phil Hersh is wrong. You keep saying that he is way off, but you haven't shown me any evidence that he is except to repeat that he doesn't speak for you. I don't think he was trying to.

Originally posted by loveskating
In regard to Kwan fans, there are probably two categories, those who will not pay for skating events unless she is there skating, and those who will, but will miss her terribly.

Well, for some of us, the skating fan world is not divided into two parts--Kwan fans and Not Kwan fans. That is what drives me crazy about threads like these. It is entirely possible to be a fan of figure skating overall, to like and appreciate other skaters AND to see that Michelle Kwan is an exceptional and deserving skater, all without being some sort of raving lunatic. I was a skating fan long before Michelle Kwan came along. I would be a skating fan if she were not a skater. I will be a skating fan long after she is gone. I appreciate what she brings to skating. I do not consider her a goddess. There are a lot of us out here like this, who are neither crazy for her nor crazy against her.

Originally posted by loveskating
I am actually in the middle, because for a lot of people who have posted, what I see is that they do not want Kwan there and consider her a detriment to skating...whereas in my case, I don't mind at all if she is there, but I don't pay money to see her ANYMORE--again, SHOOT ME, as to you that clearly makes me some evil person who deserves the kind of cheap shots your post was full of!

Speaking of exaggerating..... :roll:

You see a lot of people who have posted that they do not want Kwan there and that she is a detriment to skating. I see a lot of people expressing opinions of all kinds about Phil Hersh's column and, to some degree, about Michelle Kwan, some of them in support of her and some of them not; I see only a couple of people who think she is a detriment to skating. You see yourself being in the middle of this debate because you don't mind if Michelle Kwan is there. I guess that we all see what we want to see.

The point of Phil Hersh's article was not that there were no fans out there who wouldn't pay to go to Skate America without Michelle Kwan there, but that he finds skating boring with the exception of her. He is not saying that Michelle Kwan is the end-all and be-all of skating; he is saying that no one has stepped up to challenge Michelle Kwan's place in the skating world and that that is a shame because it means that skating has stagnated. His column is, in fact, not really about Michelle Kwan at all. It is about the state of skating. You can disagree with him all you like on an individual level--but this is not about individuals, but about skating in general. If you are going to argue that he is wrong about skating in general, then show me the solid evidence that he GREATLY EXAGGERATED and I will be more than happy to either deal with it or acknowledge that I am dead wrong, whichever is the most logical position. But I reserve the right to analyze the argument presented in any post; that's one of the things a discussion board is for.

[duane]

Originally posted by Rachel
...for some of us, the skating fan world is not divided into two parts--Kwan fans and Not Kwan fans. It is entirely possible to be a fan of figure skating overall, to like and appreciate other skaters AND to see that Michelle Kwan is an exceptional and deserving skater...

Exactly. I mean, I have had my arguments and disagreements over the years with those die-hard Kwan fans who see Michelle as flawless, who no other skater compares to. That doesn't change the fact that Michelle's status in the sport of figure skating is deserved, due to 8 consecutive years of dominance. She won her first National and World titles in 96, and presently holds both titles. This is quite exceptional. I just don't understand what the fuss is all about.

[Rachel]

Hi, duane. :)

It's been a while. How ya been?

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by duane
Exactly. I mean, I have had my arguments and disagreements over the years with those die-hard Kwan fans who see Michelle as flawless, who no other skater compares to. That doesn't change the fact that Michelle's status in the sport of figure skating is deserved, due to 8 consecutive years of dominance. She won her first National and World titles in 96, and presently holds both titles. This is quite exceptional. I just don't understand what the fuss is all about.

Well said duane!!!

[duane]

HEY RACHEL!! :)

Still here!

[kurtfan]

<<Since that time, Michelle has won 6 consecutive National titles, and 4 World titles.>>

Ya, but how many of those can we say she TRULY deserved to win???
Let's get for real now here!

[Kemy]

Kurtfan, name one that she DIDN'T deserve. There have been some tight contests, but overall, she was the best at both Nationals and Worlds when she won. She has lost when she didn't deserve to win...obviously, or else it would be 6 nats and 6 Worlds.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by kurtfan
<<Since that time, Michelle has won 6 consecutive National titles, and 4 World titles.>>

Ya, but how many of those can we say she TRULY deserved to win???
Let's get for real now here!

Really, truly, honestly......all of them.

I guess that's probably not the right answer, huh?

[JDC1]

If you're judging her winning the titles on her skating and her competitors skating then it's not even a contest. If you have some other criteria that you've not yet explained then who knows. For that matter I think the only Worlds that was close was 2000 (3rd in SP?) and even there she was clearly better in the LP although it can be argued that MB was better than IS in the LP but what's done is done.

[duane]

kurtfan,

I'm sure you think all of Kurt Browning's National and World titles were TRULY deserved, don't you? ;)

I think all of the top skaters have been held up at one time or another, including Michelle. However, I also think that nearly all of Michelle's National and World titles were TRULY deserved. IMO, the only questionable title is 2000 Nationals. I would have awarded Sarah the gold that year.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Rachel
...The point of Phil Hersh's article ... [is that] he finds skating boring with the exception of her. He is not saying that Michelle Kwan is the end-all and be-all of skating; he is saying that no one has stepped up to challenge Michelle Kwan's place in the skating world and that that is a shame because it means that skating has stagnated. His column is, in fact, not really about Michelle Kwan at all. It is about the state of skating.

Hmmmm. Place? Not sure what you mean by that. No one can take Kwan's place, or Peggy's or Oksana's etc. etc. Anyway, I guess he and all those he speaks for would have been very bored to see US ice dancers capture a gold medal in international competiton, one that they deserved, at Skate America and which I thought was earth shaking! I guess he is bored by Sasha, a U.S. skater of great and historic talent, who won a gold medal, which she deserved. Stagnation? Hmmm. Pairs in AMerica seems pretty stagnant.

Wonder if Hersch found Campbells boring? Sasha beat Michelle there, if you recall.

BTW, if discussing Kwan in GENERAL, I'm not "anti-Kwan"...I like Sasha best, then Peggy, Dorothy and Oksana a bit more than Michelle...so in GENERAL, Kwan is probably among my top five of all time...mostly, I just cannot understand the POV of many of her fans, and I find many of them use unnecessarily harsh language, etc.

BTW, you know, if I were Michelle, I would not want my legacy to be as you wrote (quoted above)...rather, I would think Michelle would want to leave a legacy where more people loved skating and were in attendance than when she came to skating!

[mission99]

I don't know about the rest of you but i think enough has been said on this topic, it is getting annoying to see at the top of the page everyday

[Rachel]

Originally posted by loveskating
Hmmmm. Place? Not sure what you mean by that.

Michelle Kwan's place as the most popular and successful eligible skater in the US, a place previously held by skaters like Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill.....and lost by them as well. It's an ephemeral thing, that particular place.

Originally posted by loveskating
Anyway, I guess he and all those he speaks for would have been very bored to see US ice dancers capture a gold medal in international competiton, one that they deserved, at Skate America and which I thought was earth shaking! I guess he is bored by Sasha, a U.S. skater of great and historic talent, who won a gold medal, which she deserved. Stagnation? Hmmm. Pairs in AMerica seems pretty stagnant.

Gold medals are one thing, outstanding skating performances are something else. I believe that what Phil Hersh wants to see are outstanding skating performances. Or to be more precise, performances HE thinks outstanding and worthy of his time and attention. YMMV.

Originally posted by loveskating
Wonder if Hersch found Campbells boring? Sasha beat Michelle there, if you recall.

I wasn't aware that Phil Hersh said anything about Michelle Kwan winning or losing, or that either made a difference.

Originally posted by loveskating
BTW, you know, if I were Michelle, I would not want my legacy to be as you wrote (quoted above)...rather, I would think Michelle would want to leave a legacy where more people loved skating and were in attendance than when she came to skating!

Considering that Michelle Kwan is still competing, I think it's a bit premature to assume that her legacy can yet be determined, so please do not attribute any comments of mine to any sort of discussion about Michelle Kwan's legacy.

But even if that were not the case, an individual cannot determine his or her own legacy; that is always determined by others. Michelle Kwan's desires, whatever they may be, will not matter when her legacy in the sport is determined.

don't know about the rest of you but i think enough has been said on this topic, it is getting annoying to see at the top of the page everyday

So...start another thread that is more interesting that will push this one down the page. Or ignore this one entirely; eventually it will go away.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Rachel
Michelle Kwan's place as the most popular and successful eligible skater in the US, a place previously held by skaters like Peggy Fleming and Dorothy Hamill.....and lost by them as well. It's an ephemeral thing, that particular place.

I see how you view the issue...popularity and medals. That "place" is always, always lost sooner or later, for it is just veneer on the real thing.

Do you really believe that Michelle Kwan's accomplishments cast a shadow on those of Sonja, Peggy, Dorothy, and all the other great skaters who came before Michelle Kwan and on whose shoulders she stands? I do not believe that for one second, any more than I believe that skating history stops with Kwan if you run the tape forward (and which Hersch certainly suggests).

THe real McCoy, the real "place" in actuality is never lost, and goes on forever and forever. The legacy is the REAL and consequential aspect of a person's life and contributions...for instance, if a kid wants to learn a split falling leaf, then there is no one better to emulate and learn from than Michelle Kwan...and I disagree that a legacy cannot be understood at all until later...I agree that a legacy needs to be realized, since it is real, not hype, but the outlines of one can be seen in the present.

Again, I would hope that Michelle Kwan would not want to leave skating, which she certainly will at some point, polarized and less than when she came to it in terms of her overall fans' love for the sport and attendance in the sport. For me, the Hersch article represents a gigantic insult not only to skating fans as a whole, but to Michelle Kwan specifically (and unfortunately, not to some of her fans).


I'm finished...I think I now understand, at least, and hope the POVs are clarified to all.

[duane]

Originally posted by mission99
I don't know about the rest of you but i think enough has been said on this topic, it is getting annoying to see at the top of the page everyday

If people are still responding, it obviously means that they feel there is more to be said.

And no offense, but just because a thread is at the top of the page doesn't mean you have to open it. ;)

[Rachel]

Originally posted by loveskating
I see how you view the issue...popularity and medals. That "place" is always, always lost sooner or later, for it is just veneer on the real thing).

Really? Were you not the person who was saying that SA was thrilling because B&A and Sasha Cohen won gold medals? Were you not the person who was bemoaning the tendency of the media to focus on Michelle Kwan, making her popular at the expense of other skaters?

And was I not the person who said that a) the place is ephermal and b) Michelle Kwan is still creating a legacy, which means that her place in skating history has not yet been determined?

Please try to remember that this thread is about Phil Hersh's article, and that everything I am posting here is focused on that article. The article was about Skate America; the discussion is about Michelle Kwan's place in skating as of now.

Originally posted by loveskating
Do you really believe that Michelle Kwan's accomplishments cast a shadow on those of Sonja, Peggy, Dorothy, and all the other great skaters who came before Michelle Kwan and on whose shoulders she stands? I do not believe that for one second, any more than I believe that skating history stops with Kwan if you run the tape forward (and which Hersch certainly suggests).

No, I don't, nor is that what I said, nor is that what I have implied, and I honestly can't begin to see where you see that in what I posted. As I have said before, I would appreciate it if you would stick with what I actually say. I tend to say exactly what I mean; if I fail to do so, I am more than happy to clarify and correct my own posts and do no particularly appreciate assistance in that regard.

This is what I said: Michelle Kwan's place as the most popular and successful eligible skater in the US

The places of Dorothy and Peggy at al., are not in question here because they are not eligible. At no time did anyone think they were going to show up at SA or any other eligible competition this year, and so they are completely irrelevant to this discussion. Again, this is about Phil Hersh's article about Skate America, no more and no less.

Phil Hersh said nothing about history coming to a grinding halt when Michelle Kwan is gone. If you think he suggested any such thing, then I have to wonder why you would think so, as there is absolutely nothing in his article that suggests any such thing to me.

Originally posted by loveskating
For me, the Hersch article represents a gigantic insult not only to skating fans as a whole, but to Michelle Kwan specifically (and unfortunately, not to some of her fans).

I probably would think so, too, if I got some of the things out of that article that you did. But I didn't--not even close.

Such is life.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by loveskating
[B}Edited:

Again, I would hope that Michelle Kwan would not want to leave skating, which she certainly will at some point, polarized and less than when she came to it in terms of her overall fans' love for the sport and attendance in the sport. For me, the Hersch article represents a gigantic insult not only to skating fans as a whole, but to Michelle Kwan specifically (and unfortunately, not to some of her fans).


I'm finished...I think I now understand, at least, and hope the POVs are clarified to all. [/B]

But Michelle is not polarizing anything - skating fans and commentators may do that by their own opinions and reactions, but Michelle is out there skating and competing. Nothing SHE does forces anyone to have an opinion of any kind. Everyone chooses to react in his or her own way.

If she has that much influence, I certainly would like to see her force our world's leaders to stop war, hunger, poverty and hatred. YOU, by your own reactions (and many others, to be fair to you), invest her with more power than she actually has.

[loveskating]

Well, I said I was finished, but people keep harping on this, and taking cheap shots at me personally (as if I were claiming Kwan could stop war or something, for goodness sakes) so...one more.

I'll just say this: I was very pleased by what Yagudin did at Skate Canada...it gave us all a chance at standing beside him for his closure, and gave us all a chance to honor someone who has meant so much to this sport, and also to look forward to seeing him skate in a "new book".

I am very happy that in future I will not have to watch this great skater skate well below his level, see him held up by the judges, see the commentators refuse to mention his mistakes, even when serious, or even perhaps see him play off ice games with competitors ... all to rack up more medals that for HIM would reflect absolutely NOTHING...this, I would never want to witness from so great a skater. I know that as an amateur, he fully realized himself, took things to the highest level he could, pushed himself and the sport at every point, never failed to meet a challenge, and I have loved every minute of it.

My respect for Alexi has doubled because of this decision, and I think he is very, very wise, and now is in a position to take full charge of his powers at this next stage of his life...and probably he will at all stages of his life; everyone goes through stages in their lives, and most people move on with grace.

Alexi was injured; Kwan has long ago peaked, and is not skating anywhere near her former level, she should honor her accomplishments and move on.

[nyskatefan]

loveskating ... I totally respect your right to wish Michelle would move on. However ... when you say she has peaked and not skating at past levels ... I say she is the reigning National and World champion ... right now. And if what I see on the GP circuit is any indication ... she has an excellent chance of being the World champion again in 2004. So I guess I just don't understand why anyone who was still interested in competing ... and still winning ... would feel like it was time to call it quits. Maybe I'm dense, but I just don't get it. I know some folks want her out, but that's not the way things work. I guess if the public suddenly decided they were sick of her,and were not interested in watching her anymore ... well then I think she would get the message and leave. Thus far, that is not the case. She is more popular than ever.

[hiliairyh]

Duane, ITA people are making way too much a deal, and what is the fuss???

Interesting praise of Alexi, with a somewhat hidden or direct comparison of Yags and Kwan.

Yags was injured, and Kwan is not, so it is easier for him to make that decision. I am happy for him, and I am happy for Kwan.

The idea that Kwan has peaked and is skating below her level is debatable. Whether she is or not, like someone said, she is the reigning world and nataional champion.

People often complain about skaters being held up/ down by judges. But the poster who made this statement here also said he or she thinks 99% of the time Kwan's wins are deserving. :) It is also interesting to see some posters who were so angry over AP being held down to a silver at Campbells last year, were the same people who insisted that AP was not held down in the free program of nationals 2003, and Campbell was just a fluff competition with no world team implications. I am not agreeing or disagreeing whether AP was held down in those competitions or not.

Commentators often refuse to mention mistakes, even serious ones from skaters, it is not skater or Michelle specific. Prior to this season, how many times had Dick and Peggy praised some American skaters with "perfect lutz" for some perfect flutzes. BTW, I do not get worked up over what the commentators say or not say.

Playing off ice games, is not specific to one skater. IMO, Kwan is the among least offender. At least Michelle does not have an official website to play e.g. the game of excuses when she has a poor showing at competitions, as I have seen some others skaters do.

Then who are we to judge which medal is meaningful to the skaters. Some skaters may treasture the very first novice medal over their olympic gold. Some skaters may treasure their last bronze medals at nationals over their world gold. When skaters continue to compete, and if they place well they will continue to collect medals, there is nothing wrong with that.

I am amazed again at the conditional love, if skater A retires, I will respect and love her, if not........

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Bondo
Umm, if someone was interested in competing...wouldn't they be competing rather than opting out of competitions?

Umm, Michelle will be competing at Nationals and at Worlds, defending her title as US Champion and World Champion.

I agree with Nyskatefan that from the looks of things in the grand prix that Kwan has an excellent chance to be World Champion in 2004.

[firefly]

I have patiently read thru 5 pages of discussion on MK and skating in the U.S. I think it's important to remember these skaters are young people who have dedicated their entire childhood and teen years to fiqure skating for the United States of America. Their families have also been dedicated. Michelle is working hard to continue to represent her country. Everyday she goes to the rink just like all the serious skaters do. She trains hard. She represents all the wonderful qualities we like to see in young Americans. Day after day she is polite,kind and gracious.Good things are coming. She is a technician that few have matched,along with consistancy.Sasha is a beautiful skater who is coming into her own this year. She has been extremely dedicated and her family also. Angela has many great qualities and is training for the same end. They simply all have individual abilities. We have many up and coming young skaters, so don't give up on skating yet. We also have many dedicated coaches both American and Russian helping to that end. Let's give a little credit here.

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by Bondo
And this changes that she is opting out of competitions?

SOME competitions, Bondo ... SOME ... she has choices. And until there is a rule that says you have to enter everything in a figure skating season ... she and all the skaters will have choices.

Look at it this way ... with her not doing the GP, your favorite skater can have the spotlight all to herself.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by hiliairyh
I am amazed again at the conditional love, if skater A retires, I will respect and love her, if not........

Cheap shot...I didn't say anything about "conditions"! The only way I could ever dispise Michelle Kwan is if she plays off ice games and actually hurts a competitor unjustly and unfairly! That, I would never forgive anyone, including her.

I've seen what happens to someone, even someone of the stature of Luciano Pavarotti, who stays too long at the party...and I did not enjoy it...so SHOOT ME! He left himself wide open to all sorts of junk because he made a mistake of judgment. But if you think I don't still love Luciano Pavarotti, you are NUTS...I adore him! Still, I would not today pay to see him sing a full opera...because he simply no longer has the strength to sing a full opera...however, he COULD right now pack the Met, but only those who cannot hear a NOTE at all would come based on past glory and hype, the "name."

I remember a time when Michelle was pushing herself and everyone else, and IMHO, that time is over...in her actual skating, NOW, she is not pushing anyone other than on the issue of consistency, and otherwise, she is the one who is being pushed; I don't like seeing skating reduced to the issue of consistency, which is currently what a lot of the commentary is about!! In her actual skating, Michelle is going backwards from her own self, if anything! To me, all a gold medal at Nationals or Worlds would mean for her is that Kwan stayed on her feet while other skaters doing far more difficult programs did not! What kind of "victory" is that, in its CONTENT? To me, it is nothing, or worse.

Also, I speculate that she is afraid...afraid to change her life, and I understand that, I sympathize with that, but part of her growing up is that it is TIME to make those choices...just as all of us have to do that, at all stages of our lives, whatever our situation, and IMHO those who do so with grace and wisdom fare a lot better than those who resist those necessary changes in life, because they understand, somehow, that there is great power in taking charge of the next stage, and that if you don't get it, it will anyway get you, sooner or later. No one is exempt!

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by Bondo
And a skater who still loved to compete would CHOOSE to skate in the GP series as well.

Says who ... you?
And we should take your opinion as fact because ... ?

[shadymc]

I don't agree that because someone wants to compete, it means they have to compete in every possible competition. Many athletes in baseball and basketball play in less games as they begin to wind down their career. But they still want to be out there as much as they can, so they wait to retire. If it's accepted in other sports, why shouldn't it be accepted in figure skating? I also know she has back problems which are exacerbated by long flights, so she doesn't want to venture too far away more than is necessary.

As for her abilities, I agree that she is not performing to the level she has in the past. The reasons are a bit unclear. I do know that her attempts at more difficult 3/3's resulted in the above-mentioned back problems. I don't know how much this has affected the rest of her skating. She did say that she had changed trainers in an effort to enable her to do more, but I don't know the status of this. I also know that Sasha has (wisely, I think) decided to forego 3/3 attempts at this time, while she continues off-ice training to enable her to complete the combination, so I think their similar body types lead to the same problems with the jump combos.

Remember, Michelle's program is not choreographed for COP, while presumably the rest of the skaters' programs are. I am curious to see what she would come up with if COP is instituted for all competitions, which I'm sure it will be by next year.

[Kemy]

Originally posted by Bondo
my favorite skater (AP) unfortunately is injured and is having to miss CoR.

from Bondo's profile as of 11/18/03
Favorite Skaters Sasha and Alexei

I would suggest that you change your profile and actually mention your "favorite" skater every once in a while.

[nyskatefan]

Great catch Kemy! How did I miss that!

[Tapper]

Originally posted by Bondo
And this changes that she is opting out of competitions?

She's not opting out of competition. If she competes at Nationals and at Worlds, then she's competing.

[IgglesII]

Originally posted by Bondo
Oh, and my favorite skater (AP) unfortunately is injured and is having to miss CoR. But if you are referring to Sasha, Sasha doesn't need Michelle to not participate to earn herself the spotlight.

With the exception of one USFSA Cheesefest, that statement has yet to be proven.

[Tapper]

Originally posted by loveskating
I've seen what happens to someone, even someone of the stature of Luciano Pavarotti, who stays too long at the party...and I did not enjoy it...so SHOOT ME! He left himself wide open to all sorts of junk because he made a mistake of judgment. But if you think I don't still love Luciano Pavarotti, you are NUTS...I adore him! Still, I would not today pay to see him sing a full opera...because he simply no longer has the strength to sing a full opera...however, he COULD right now pack the Met, but only those who cannot hear a NOTE at all would come based on past glory and hype, the "name."


Ok, so you are making a comparison now between Michelle Kwan and Luciano Pavarotti? (Why opera? Why not Sondheim... I know him better!) OK, I'll use your analogy in my response. I think that Michelle Kwan is still capable of hitting all the beautiful notes she needs without wavering, and capable of hitting them with remarkable clarity and consistency. Her instrument, unlike Pavorotti's, is not giving out. Your comment about his being able to pack the Met assumes that all who would go to hear him sing "cannot hear a note," and if one is to follow your analogy, your words are also suggesting that a full house for Michelle Kwan would be filled with an audience that is as blind to skating as Pavorotti's audience is deaf to opera. Again, I would disagree with you. You can't know why people go to hear Pavorotti sing... and you can't know why people like to watch Michelle Kwan skate. The simple fact is that some people do... What'r ya gonna do? Shoot 'em? ;)

Originally posted by loveskating
I don't like seeing skating reduced to the issue of consistency, which is currently what a lot of the commentary is about!! In her actual skating, Michelle is going backwards from her own self, if anything! To me, all a gold medal at Nationals or Worlds would mean for her is that Kwan stayed on her feet while other skaters doing far more difficult programs did not! What kind of "victory" is that, in its CONTENT? To me, it is nothing, or worse.


Ok, so you don't like the current importance of consistency. Why not? Isn't consistency important? And, why don't you want Kwan to win a gold medal at Nats or Worlds? Because it would mean the other skaters didn't skate as well as she did? Isn't that why people win? Because they did better than the other guy, because one guy was left standing while the other fell? Now, lets follow this thought a little further..., if Michelle Kwan were to make your wishes come true and actually retire, then a skater who fell and would have lost to a Kwan who remained standing, would now win because you've taken out the Kwan who would have "remained standing." How would you view that skater's victory if you knew that a consistent Michelle would have beaten her? I know that you say you don't want to eliminate the competition, but by removing Kwan you would be doing exactly that. I know, you adore her (top five), the way you adore Pavorotti. I believe you. Really. But do you see the holes in the reasoning here?


Originally posted by loveskating
Also, I speculate that she is afraid...afraid to change her life, and I understand that, I sympathize with that, but part of her growing up is that it is TIME to make those choices...just as all of us have to do that, at all stages of our lives, whatever our situation, and IMHO those who do so with grace and wisdom fare a lot better than those who resist those necessary changes in life, because they understand, somehow, that there is great power in taking charge of the next stage, and that if you don't get it, it will anyway get you, sooner or later. No one is exempt!

I honestly do not think you need to sympatize with Michelle Kwan. Change is often scary, but I don't think Michelle Kwan is someone who is so afraid of change that she cannot act. I think that the problem here is that you want her to quit before she wants to or is ready to quit, or another way of saying it is that she doesn't want to quit and you want her to, but no matter how you say it, nothing can be done about that because the decision belongs to her and no one else.

I sincerely believe that no one can "move on" until they are ready to move on. You can't force it. No one can know when it is truly right to move on except the individual who is doing the moving on. I think it's a natural thing - and that it is sort of organic in its development - for anyone to do, and everyone is different. For example, regarding Michelle Kwan's skating, I think you've "moved on." I haven't though; I still love watching her compete.

(Familiar with "Move On" from Sondheim's "Sunday in the Park With George"? Seems appropriate.)

[Kemy]

I love to read...Do I make it my whole life.

She never said, "I like to compete all the time." "I want to make skating my whole life." If she didn't like to compete, why stay around at all?

She likes competing, so she continues to do so.
She feels that she doesn't want to totally put off her education, so she does that too.
She has a boyfriend. She wants to spend time with said boyfriend.

She apparently loves/wants to do all three things, so she balances everything. I think it's common sense to see that you can't do ALL of these things ALL of the time, so you BALANCE...meaning you do without some things in order to enjoy other things. That's how you don't burn out.

[nyskatefan]

Wonderful "logical" post Kemy!!!
Best to leave the "cynicism" to those who seem to thrive on it.

[shadymc]

I think that Alexi Yagudin provides a good example here. He has everything Michelle has, plus the OGM and he still did not want to retire until injury forced him to do so. He said he was a competitor and he was bored without competing, even though he accomplished everything he wanted to do. Plain and simple.

I still don't see why Michelle should have to compete in every available competition. As I said before, there are many professional atheletes who compete less as they age, but still want to be there when they can. And this is perfectly acceptible if they can still help the team. I think it's clear that Michelle is contributing to the team. With Sarah gone and AP injured, without Michelle, I think it is possible the US could lose a spot for world's next year. Probably, not, but it is a possibility.

[loveskating]

Look, my point is that soon, Michelle will have to lose her place, and I'd like to see her do so graciously, like a champion...I'd rather see her give it up and move on than to see it taken from her...but if she insists on the latter, then I am saying that there is quite possibly a price she will have to pay for that.

Placido Domingo still packs the Met...and he has the hype machine in his hip pocket, but he cannot even sing a B (no other tenor to my knowledge has stuck around after he lost his B, for that note is all over the place in each and every opera, you cannot sing opera without a good B), he transposes the operas down, thus tortuing the other singers on the low notes...and while most people haven't got a clue, he knows, the singers and the musicians know, and all knowledgeable opera fans know...and consider him a joke, a powerful joke, but a joke! He sounds good, but at the expense of the other singers, who often crack on the low notes, and at the expense of THE MUSIC, THE COMPOSERS, and frankly, at the expense of his own fans, who are duped! He will never, ever be able to take all that back, and it will all come out at some point, and he could have had it differently...he could have never besmirched his grand accomplishments and his name with such silly, vain, and/or really greedy choices.

I am NOT making a direct analogy here, but I am outlining the kinds of risks and corruption that can come when someone who is actually finished in content, hangs onto the form!

[shadymc]

Loveskating,

You and I agree on a couple of points. She is not skating at the same ability level as a few years ago and I would rather not see her begin to finish competitions off the podium. I don't think that would happen, because I believe she would leave if she was no longer competitive. Obviously, she can still compete if she is the reigning National and World Champ. Judging from what I've seen so far, she has a great shot at the podium again this year.

On the rest, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even though her skill level has diminished somewhat, I think as an overall skater, she is still one of the 2 or 3 best in the world. I'm assuming that her back problems will keep her from progressing any further with more difficult 3/3's. However, COP changes her fate completely. Suddenly, those 3/3's are not as important. I'm curious to see what she'll come up with in terms of a COP-designed program. She may put back all the in-betweens she did in the past, because the emphasis is not on the jumps as much. Honestly, if she does this, I think even that easy 3 toe/3toe might carry her right through the next Olympics, because she did it so well. The combo would likely stand up well against someone doing a more difficult 3/3, who didn't do it as well.

[duane]

Originally posted by loveskating
Look, my point is that soon, Michelle will have to lose her place, and I'd like to see her do so graciously, like a champion...

Loveskating,
First, I am glad that you are still responding to all the replies being thrown your way! ;)

I get your point, and do agree that (eventually) Michelle will lose her place. However, I don't think there is anything to suggest that now is the time. So far, two Grand Prix events have been televised, and Sasha won both with a low degree of difficulty in terms of jumps. She won Skate Canada with a LP that consisted of only 5 triples (and no combos, not even a 3/2). Oksana could have won that event!

There hasn't yet been an Elvis Stojko of ladies skating--one who wins competitions because of their consistent degree of difficulty, forcing all others to follow. Perhaps Tara would have been that skater if she had remained healthy and eligible after the 98 Olympics, or Sarah if she had continued competing at her SLC level. When there is an actual increase of technical difficulty in ladies skating--and not simply talk of it--Michelle will then have to decide if she can hang, or if she should hang up her skates.

However, at the moment, I still see Michelle as one of the top skaters in the world, who can easily defend her National and World titles.

[hiliairyh]

It was a joy for me to pay to watch Michael Jordan, and David Robinson last season. They were not at their peak, but they still contributed. Most/ all great sports champions retire at a time when they know they can not be competitive,they do not hang things up at their peak, Gretzy, Sampras, Jordan, Ripkin, Robinson, Nikalus just to name a few.

Sports is about overall content. When Jordan returned to the NBA after the baseball break, he reorganized his game, and learnt to play smart. I think some figure skaters are doing the same.

I am glad Elvis and Todd stayed on until they feel it is time. Some fans were negative about it, they were in the minority. I don't think Elvis and Todd lost any sleep over it.

There is always a price to pay when they lace up their skates, even in the pro circuit, mainly the risk of injury. I hope skaters at all stages of their career train smart, and take care of their bodies.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by shadymc
Loveskating,

You and I agree on a couple of points. She is not skating at the same ability level as a few years ago and I would rather not see her begin to finish competitions off the podium. I don't think that would happen, because I believe she would leave if she was no longer competitive. Obviously, she can still compete if she is the reigning National and World Champ. Judging from what I've seen so far, she has a great shot at the podium again this year.

On the rest, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even though her skill level has diminished somewhat, I think as an overall skater, she is still one of the 2 or 3 best in the world. I'm assuming that her back problems will keep her from progressing any further with more difficult 3/3's. However, COP changes her fate completely. Suddenly, those 3/3's are not as important. I'm curious to see what she'll come up with in terms of a COP-designed program. She may put back all the in-betweens she did in the past, because the emphasis is not on the jumps as much. Honestly, if she does this, I think even that easy 3 toe/3toe might carry her right through the next Olympics, because she did it so well. The combo would likely stand up well against someone doing a more difficult 3/3, who didn't do it as well.

Well, me, I look forward to seeing Sasha because she is still improving, and has already got IMHO the best spirals, the best layback I've ever seen, Russian split, Ina Bauer, great spreadeagle, best front catch spin....etc. etc. and she is still pushing herself..a forward scratch spin, and a forward layback, very tough jump entries, etc.; I like to see how A.P. is doing; also Jenny, and others...I really like Yukina, will love seeing her develop.

To me, I'm seeing Michelle Kwan in decline...whatever her currrent place, which is high, I agree. I don't expect any more to see her do anything better, more, and some things, not as well, as she did in the past. I don't like that. That doesn't make me evil, and I know she will do as she pleases, but I don't have to like seeing it!

Along with that, and related, there is the issue of what it means anymore to her or anyone else when she wins...it just means NOTHING to me, its hollow, she doesn't NEED it, so its empty for me.

[turtlehead]

I find it interesting that most people that want Michelle Kwan to turn pro say that they are bored watching her, she isn't improving, she's predictable, yadda yadda yadda...and that she must turn pro to "save" the pro ranks. Would these people tune in to watch pro shows? And would she really be saving the pro's if she's boring, predictable, not improving, yadda yadda yadda? Because I have a feeling that they wouldn't like Michelle Kwan to go pro for the reasons that they state and really because they simply want a skater they love to have a better chance.

[peaches]

Originally posted by turtlehead
Would these people tune in to watch pro shows? And would she really be saving the pro's if she's boring, predictable, not improving, yadda yadda yadda?

I love the pros, personally. I really enjoy seeing what kind of personality comes to life when a skater is no longer bound by the rules of what must be included/what cannot be included in a program. I like to see the developement of the skater relating to the audience as well which is something that is too rarely seen in eligible skating as they're too focused on pleasing the judges. So many skaters that were indeed amazing as eligibles have come even more to life as pros and really become legends they might not otherwise have been if they'd lingered in the confines of eligible skating. Many a "boring" skater has come out of their shell in the pros and continued to improve. For the record, I think Michelle would sell an obscene amount of tickets in whatever she participated in.

[Schmeck]

Has anyone tried to score any of Michelle's programs using CoP?


I've yet to download the complete CoP file from the ISU, but I'm tempted once I get a better 'net connection, and then I'd love to judge a program or two.


I'd forgotten about Michelle's back issues - I keep thinking of Todd Eldredge, and his nasty flight that left him feeling nearly crippled. I just figured that Michelle didn't do GP because she's done so many years of them that they didn't seem all that important to her anymore (I never think of them as that important anyways, at least not compared to Worlds and the Olympics) or else she's making a statement about the controlling, moneygrubbing grasp of the ISU... :twisted:

Schmeck

[hiliairyh]

I don't think Jack Niklaus needed any of his 18 major championship titles, I don't think Bill Russell needed any of his 11 NBA championship rings. I certainly will not assume that they do or don't need more tiltes or medals after breaking the record at half the number of their total titles/ medals. IMHO assuming is rather empty and meaningless.

I however trust the champions judgment about when is the best time for retirement, and after years of watching sports, I can not think of too many champions who retired at their peak, if they were healthy and still competitive. Barry Sanders is the only one I could think of, I miss him, and still don't understand why he walked away from football at his peak, and relatively healthy.

I am thankful that the sports gods bless us with free will, if we don't like to watch them, we can take refrigerators breaks. It is our responsibilities to do that.

[nyskatefan]

Luckily for all of us, this is America and we get to make choices.

Personally, every extra minute I got to see MJ was well worth it!!!

So you see ... it's all just a matter of opinion ... in which case, an athlete can never please everyone ... so they should please themselves first!

[Kemy]

Originally posted by Bondo
Michael Jordan should have stayed gone the second time when he had drained a basket to win his 6th NBA Championship. After seeing the atrocity that was his return for the Wizards and all the bad PR that hit him now would you really say he made the right decision about coming back? Sometimes being personally connected, they don't know the right time.

But would his return have been an atrocity if he had played for someone other than the Wizards? Choosing to play for a team when he was the president of that organization wasn't the smartest thing to do. The team didn't connect with him because of the whole "boss" factor. He wasn't bad...he just wasn't helpful. I don't think anyone could have saved the Wizards. I don't think that his team's level of play here had nothing to do with his ability to play. He's still got it. He should have quit his job as the president first

[loveskating]

Originally posted by turtlehead
I find it interesting that most people that want Michelle Kwan to turn pro say that they are bored watching her, she isn't improving, she's predictable, yadda yadda yadda...and that she must turn pro to "save" the pro ranks. Would these people tune in to watch pro shows? And would she really be saving the pro's if she's boring, predictable, not improving, yadda yadda yadda? Because I have a feeling that they wouldn't like Michelle Kwan to go pro for the reasons that they state and really because they simply want a skater they love to have a better chance.

Please consider that most of Kurt Browning's, Kristi's, Paul Wylie', G&G's and Ilia Kulik's professional programs would have been either illegal or a complete waste of time in the amateur ranks! THIS is what is being talked about...that MK can grow and develop no more as an amateur, but she can as a pro.

Its cheap and easy to reduce things to the desires of fans...but let's try that shoe on YOU...why do YOU want Michelle to stay in, when in fact, her skating is in decline, she is not as good as she once was, and she is not going to get any better? What awful and ulterior motive do YOU have?

[nyskatefan]

[i]Its cheap and easy to reduce things to the desires of fans...but let's try that shoe on YOU...why do YOU want Michelle to stay in, when in fact, her skating is in decline, she is not as good as she once was, and she is not going to get any better? What awful and ulterior motive do YOU have? [/B]

loveskating ... I can only answer for me, but why do I want Michelle to stay in? Because she is to me the most elegant and competitive skater I have ever watched. Because I could never get tired of watching her no matter how old she was. Because I thank God above that he put me on this earth the same time as her, and I got to witness this experience firsthand.

I can't say you are wrong in what you feel about her skating ... everyone has a right to their opinion, and I respect yours.
I do take issue with you though, when you say she is not going to get any better. How could anyone know that?

Maybe we could just agree to disagree. :)

[shadymc]

ITA with everything you've said. While I doubt that her physical problems will allow her to do any more difficult jump combinations, it cannot be stated that she cannot improve. When COP is enforced overall (and I believe it will be), it will take the pressure off of her to do more difficult 3/3's (and other skaters like Fumie, Vika and Sasha who have had trouble landing them). Many of the in betweens Michelle used to do were removed to increase her speed and focus on the jumps. When her programs are choreographed for COP, that will be the time to determine if she can improve in these areas and do the type of programs she used to do.

[Tapper]

My sentiments, exactly! Thank you for saying it so well.

[nyskatefan]

You're very welcome!

[drmsk8r]

Believe me; Michelle is anything but on her way out. She is working hard and will I am sure do great this year. She is a tough person and competes greats. This will be her 13th or 14th Nationals who else has this kind of record. I believe she can do anything she puts her mind too. Yes, there are women who have t-axels and more difficult jumps, but can they really skate (spins, footwork, style).
I havn't seen many who can.

[turtlehead]

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by Bondo
I'm not entirely positive that record is a good one to have. I mean, what if you had a player in a sport who has the record for most games played...but isn't even close on wins. Simply competing isn't necessarily an achivement on its own (think Cal Ripkin...sure he played a few thousand games in a row, but his team wasn't exactly the Yankees for success).

Bondo .. this might apply if Michelle weren't still winning. Hard to use this argument when she keeps winning National and World titles.

[sashafras]

Honestly, Bondo, why not give it a rest already? It is tiresome and boring to plod through yet another Michelle Kwan critique of yours. You have made your point, ad nauseum, that you don't like MK. WE ALL KNOW IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!:evil:

[nyskatefan]

Originally posted by Bondo
Why not just use her National and World title wins then rather than how many she's competed in? It is more impressive and actually shows accomplishment.

I'm not really sure what your point is here. Use her titles for what? Is this a response because someone on this thread said how many she had attended? If so ... then looking at all the stats is even more impressive. When you look at her longevity and the fact that she is still on top, it is even more amazing. Most competitors will tell you it's easier to get to the top than it is to stay there.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Bondo
I'm not entirely positive that record is a good one to have. I mean, what if you had a player in a sport who has the record for most games played...but isn't even close on wins. Simply competing isn't necessarily an achivement on its own (think Cal Ripkin...sure he played a few thousand games in a row, but his team wasn't exactly the Yankees for success).
Cal Ripken's main achievement is his record of playing a few thousand games in a row? Sounds like you don't know much about Cal Ripken, who has achieved both on the record & off, personally & professionally, much more in his life so far than anything I expect to ever see from individuals who spend so much of their time stirring the pot on message boards. :roll:

Once in awhile it can be humorous, but 7 pages later, I thought this topic was still supposed to be about a commentary article written by Phil Hersh. And it's not been that now for quite awhile. Unless I missed the compare & contrast in his article between MK & Cal Ripken.

[Skatewind]

Some of us come to the topic thinking we're going to be reading about the subject matter specified, only to find out the topic is constantly being redirected back around to the same old tired off-topic arguments. That's not a "rotten assumption", it's actually happening on a regular basis, & it has nothing to do with either "deep connections" or MK either.

[Skatewind]

Lest you have forgotten Bondo, you have been very open in your comments over the internet during past few months that you enjoy stirring the pot under certain conditions. As you can see from reading the previous posts, I am not the only one who thinks so. Sorry if you don't like it when people disagree with you, but I will continue to comment on any topics I like.

[turtlehead]

Originally posted by loveskating
Please consider that most of Kurt Browning's, Kristi's, Paul Wylie', G&G's and Ilia Kulik's professional programs would have been either illegal or a complete waste of time in the amateur ranks! THIS is what is being talked about...that MK can grow and develop no more as an amateur, but she can as a pro.

Its cheap and easy to reduce things to the desires of fans...but let's try that shoe on YOU...why do YOU want Michelle to stay in, when in fact, her skating is in decline, she is not as good as she once was, and she is not going to get any better? What awful and ulterior motive do YOU have?

Excuse me? Getting a bit paranoid aren't we? Does the shoe fit a bit too well? Michelle Kwan has every right to stay in it. It's her choice. Not yours. Maybe that's what the real problem is. YOU want her gone. SHE wants to stay. Do you know better then she does?

[duane]

Originally posted by loveskating
Why do YOU want Michelle to stay in...?

This was not directed to me, but I'd like to give my reasons.

She is still young, she is still able, and she is the reigning National and World champion. I'd like to see if she can continue to add more titles to her impressive record, or if someone can finally step up to the plate and prevent her from doing so. As Elvis once stated regarding him and Kurt Browning (who was then the National and World king): "Rather than having the title given to me, it would be more interesting to see if I can take it." YEAH! And to be honest, I'll bet that Sasha has this same attitude!

I also think Michelle adds excitement. She is the Tiger Woods of skating. Some have suggested that his game is on a decline, but his presence is still felt, and he can never be counted out--not yet. Same for Michelle.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by duane
This was not directed to me, but I'd like to give my reasons.

She is still young, she is still able, and she is the reigning National and World champion. I'd like to see if she can continue to add more titles to her impressive record, or if someone can finally step up to the plate and prevent her from doing so. As Elvis once stated regarding him and Kurt Browning (who was then the National and World king): "Rather than having the title given to me, it would be more interesting to see if I can take it." YEAH! And to be honest, I'll bet that Sasha has this same attitude!

I also think Michelle adds excitement. She is the Tiger Woods of skating. Some have suggested that his game is on a decline, but his presence is still felt, and he can never be counted out--not yet. Same for Michelle.

Thanks for speaking to the real issues Duane...you prefer to see MK's place taken from her, I don't, but that is a fair, legitimate difference (for me, it has nothing to do with Sasha, much more to do with MK and her legacy).

You say MK adds excitement, and cannot yet be counted out, and I agree, she can't be counted out and she does add excitement for her fans, who are many.

The other issues in the mix are not compelling for you, and that is also a fair, reasonable difference.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by turtlehead
Excuse me? Getting a bit paranoid aren't we? Does the shoe fit a bit too well? Michelle Kwan has every right to stay in it. It's her choice. Not yours. Maybe that's what the real problem is. YOU want her gone. SHE wants to stay. Do you know better then she does?

Its so EASY to just characterize and then attack the motives of others, rather than to analyze a situation...but you refuse to accept the same back at you...what are YOUR motives for wanting Kwan to stay in when she is not going to improve technically and when she therefore risks a lot by staying in? Don't you even care about her as a person at all? Don't you care about her role in skating and her legacy, do you want to see all she has been just tarnished? Do you refuse to allow her to gracefully move on in her life just because YOU want to see her skate as an amateur, knocking off those 7 triple performances yet again, and for what? She has been there, done that!

It could be that I care a whole lot more for MK than YOU do! Being a good friend sometimes requires telling someone the truth as you see it, not just going along with what they want or say! But sure, its her choice, that is obvious...and what we are discussing is the wisdom and the various possible consequences of that choice!

One thing I think we all can agree on is that if she wants, we will be able to see MK skate for many, many years to come...just watched Boitano land his Tono lutz yet again on television last night, so we can just take that issue right off the table!

Someone earlier in this thread also raised a very legitimate issue...keeping those 3 spots for US ladies, and the fact that we don't know what the skaters under MK and Sasha will do, still not very establshed. That IS a very important issue to all of us, and I agree, that is a reason for MK to stay in...not sure it is enough to make me change my mind, but it is a fair, legitimate and important argument.

[sk8cynic]

Originally posted by loveskating
Thanks for speaking to the real issues Duane...you prefer to see MK's place taken from her, I don't, but that is a fair, legitimate difference (for me, it has nothing to do with Sasha, much more to do with MK and her legacy).

You say MK adds excitement, and cannot yet be counted out, and I agree, she can't be counted out and she does add excitement for her fans, who are many.

I'm with Duane on this one....I'd much rather see Sasha take the title away from Michelle and beat her legitimately - if Michelle were to step down, the uber-Kwans (not all of them, just the militant faction) will be saying from that point on that the only reason Sasha won is because Michelle didn't compete. :roll:

Loveskating, judging from the duration of this thread and a few others I've read recently, it appears that Michelle is adding a bit of excitement to fans of other skaters as well.

While Michelle is not one of my favorite skaters, she is enormously talented and can still deliver the goods, so I think she should stay in and keep competing!! She may not be your cuppa, but she's still better than the majority of the field of American Ladies. I'd rather watch her than see a weak field splatting and falling short of what's needed to bring home the International titles.

[turtlehead]

Originally posted by loveskating
Its so EASY to just characterize and then attack the motives of others, rather than to analyze a situation...but you refuse to accept the same back at you...what are YOUR motives for wanting Kwan to stay in when she is not going to improve technically and when she therefore risks a lot by staying in? Don't you even care about her as a person at all? Don't you care about her role in skating and her legacy, do you want to see all she has been just tarnished? Do you refuse to allow her to gracefully move on in her life just because YOU want to see her skate as an amateur, knocking off those 7 triple performances yet again, and for what? She has been there, done that!

It could be that I care a whole lot more for MK than YOU do! Being a good friend sometimes requires telling someone the truth as you see it, not just going along with what they want or say! But sure, its her choice, that is obvious...and what we are discussing is the wisdom and the various possible consequences of that choice!




WOW loveskating, you really took that first pot of mine to heart. :roll: I never said that I WANT Michelle Kwan to stay in. I never said I want her to retire. It isn't my decision. Crying and whining about it isn't gonna change the fact that she's still here. Ridiculous comparisons between her and everybody from opera singers to football players won't change it. Posting 900 times on a message board feighning your concern for her and her legacy won't change it. The decision is hers. If she can't do it anymore, she will be beaten. Her being there isn't hurting any other, up and coming skater. If they want to beat her and take the national title, more power to them. It's the skater that has to step up to the challenge, it's not up to Michelle Kwan to hand the national title to anybody. And Michelle Kwan NOT being there won't help the up and comers win it. It's years and years of dedication that win titles, and I think it's insulting and demeaning for people to suggest that Michelle Kwan stepping down is the only way. Please, for future reference, do not presume you know anything other then what my post says. I really hate it when people try to put words in my mouth.

[sashafras]

Turtlehead! I love your style! You post so eloquently and I appreciate it, because you express my feelings better than I can! :)

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Bondo
Then how about you start commenting on the TOPICS and not on me as a person.
That's exactly what I did when I pointed out the comment about Cal Ripken was ridiculous & put it in perspective. I didn't assume your comment had to relate to Michelle, I was noting the inaccuracy of it. Again, sorry if you didn't like it but I will comment on any topics I like & it's not your decision to tell me when to do it or how to do it.

[GrapeSoda]

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that this thread has lasted longer and attracted more posts than just about anything on this board recently?

[duane]

Originally posted by loveskating
Thanks for speaking to the real issues Duane...you prefer to see MK's place taken from her, I don't, but that is a fair, legitimate difference (for me, it has nothing to do with Sasha, much more to do with MK and her legacy).

I am not saying that I want Michelle's place taken from her. I'd have no problem with Michelle winning every World and National title until she is 30. Nor does it have anything to do with Sasha. I mention her because IMO she is the skater who has the best chance to be the next National/World champion.

It simply has to do with the sport of FS. When a top competitor retires--or is injured--the sport suffers, in both competitiveness and excitement. The sport suffered when Tara turned pro, when b&s and s&p turned pro, when Sarah was injured...and look at the mens, now that Yagudin is no longer competing (one word: BORING!). Eligible ladies skating would surely suffer if the reigning champion were to retire.

So, I'd rather see if Sasha (or any skater, for that matter) can beat Michelle legitimately. She's done it this year for the first time. Can she do so at Nationals or Worlds? I'm dying to see! For so long, there have been those saying Michelle should retire in order "to give others a chance to win". What nonsense! Other skaters have always had the chance to win against Michelle.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Bondo
I realize that you don't have to listen to me on when and what to respond to...but I imagine if you continued insulting posters the moderators might and you do have to listen to them.
This coming from a poster who contributed to another thread being shut down only last week due to inappropriate comments...

Your remarks often specify how important research & accuracy is when one is writing, particular in journalism, etc, etc. Yet other remarks, as here in the case of Cal Ripken, are not very accurate or complete & people are going to point it out when that happens.

Regarding the remark about my comments being ageist, it sounds like you presume all of us here know everyone else's ages, so I don't think it is a sound assessment but perhaps an inaccurate perception of something that was written.

I made a comment about something I disagreed with & did not make a personal attack toward you. I did a compare & contrast using Cal Ripken, just as you did. There are always going to be achievers in sports & there are always going to be Monday morning quarterbackers. I give more credence to the achievers & their stated goals than I do to the Monday morning quarterbackers. In the meantime, I will take issue with uninformed remarks about Cal Ripken when I read them. You can certainly disagree with anything I have stated, but at this point we should simply agree to disagree, or you can contact a moderator if it is truly that horrendous to you. We don't need to keep going back & forth here & continue to argue about it.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Bondo
I didn't make inaccurate remarks about Cal really, you just didn't accept the very specific context that I intended them in.
Part of your very specific context compared Cal's individual record to the overall team record of the Orioles. So if one really wanted to use that in a compare & contrast with Michelle's situation, one would compare Michelle's record to the overall USFS skating team record. I must have missed that part along with the relevance of it all.

But at any rate to get back on track, I would counter Phil's article by pointing out that Jeffrey Buttle is on fire this year, B/A have arrived & Kevin van der Perren made it to the GPF with no triple axel by outskating the big boys. The season began slowly but it's starting to pick up & there will be plenty of interesting stories, even if there are no new superstars emerging quite yet. He wrote this column prior to the first event & it was too soon for this season.

[hiliairyh]

The "tarnish" concept is something new to me. If a champion who is healthy and competitve stays on to compete and loses to another athlete, the champion's legacy will be tarnished? Tell that to Jack Nicklaus. He retired at the US Open 2000, he did not even make the cut after 2 days of competition. Tiger Woods won that tournament, so Nikalus' legacy is tarnished? I say not. It is the way of sport, every new generation can jump higher and run faster than the previous. Sports champions who are healthy and still competitive will stay on even if some fans think they are on the "decline". When to retire is their decision. I see no one's legacy as being tarnished, I don't think Michael Jordan, Todd, or Elvis legacy as tarnished.

There are extreme "uber" fans from all sides. If a champion retired, his or her extreme fans may say the next one wins because the previous champion retired. The "uber" fans of the next one may say the previous champion retired out of fear of losing to the new one. So the beat goes on, why do we have to pay attention?

Cal's record in games played on its own is HUGE. I think no one will be able to break that in the near future.

In some way it is a moot point to just talk about an athlete's longevity or the number of games played, because most of them are very good in other areas. Jerry Rice's longevity is impressive, but he does not spend all these years sitting at the side line. He breaks many record along the way. Emmitt Smith is another example.