Some edge quality questions: can someone explain?

[Roma]

I'm really trying to understand edge quality better. What is the difference between 'cleanness' and 'sureness' of edges? And those of you who report deep edges, when you report this, are you actually looking at the blade or are you going by the body lean? Any other hints for distinguishing quality edges? Thanks.

[rinsk]

When you're looking at edge quality, your looking at a lot of things: the position of the blade itself and body lean are part of it, but you're also looking at the tracing made on the ice: is the skater making deep curves (a deep edge) or skating in something closer to a straight line (a shallow edge)? A skater with good quality edges will also be able to actually pick up speed and flow DURING an edge by pressing their weight into the edge and not just use the actual action of pushing to give themselves speed.

I hope this helps. Unfortunately, if you're watching skating on TV, some of this isn't as obvious as when you're watching skating in a rink.

As for "cleaness" vs. "sureness", I'll give a try at it and maybe other people can elaborate or correct me. I think of clean edges as if you were to look at the tracing on the ice, there is no wobbling off of the edge or scratching with the picks. I see sureness of edges as including cleaness but maybe also looking more at other qualities like flow.

[Kemy]

I thought sureness was the depth and strength of edge and cleanness was maintaining a quiet edge...not scratchy

[loveskating]

With edges, its like anything else...you have to COMPARE. I'm an opera fan, and when people say to me that all opera singers sound alike, I know that this only means they have not listened and compared.

Dick Button once defined great edging as "a condition in which there is no resistance from the body to the blade in the ice", i.e., he was looking at the RESULT of great edging, not the blade edges themselves (and that makes sense since we would all be bored to death if we stared at those blades throughout the program).

So I shorten it and just say that great edging has a RESULT that can be more or less objectively defined.

If you look at Alexander Abt, for instance, this is what you see for the most part...and its not a matter so much of a bauble here and there or even the appearance of "deep edges" in the very ice (tracings included) itself, as it is in how his entire body moves on the blades, how he is always leaning on an edge (this is choreography to be sure, but it is choreography that REFLECTS what Abt can do).

Conversely, skaters who are constantly stroking backward or forward and/or constantly moving in straight up bodily positions (not referring to carriage, but to being on the flat of the blade, not leaning) on the ice, indicate that they cannot maintain speed and/or accellerate on one blade and thus they HAVE to stroke to set up the jumps and other elements, which require speed. Thus their program does not appear to flow from one element to the other by comparison.

However, quiet edges do indicate that the edges are deep, that they are not scratchy or light, and that the skater is perfectly balanced on the blades (whatever the appearance). You cannot have quiet edges and shallow edges at the same time, its physically impossible. I'd listen for the quietness rather than try to see the tracings over the entire surface of the ice except for the very first skater...assuming you are there live, of course.

Accelleration is a learned skill, but I'm of the belief that the result Dick Button talks about when it comes to people like Abt is mainly not learned, that what makes Abt special is a natural accidental product of the way his body is constructed and thus moves, where there is a superior natural balance that not everyone is possessed of. That is the only way I can resolve the fact that so many skaters have equal training, seem to have equal skill levels on the basics, but yet there are STILL those that stand out.

Anyway, look at Alexander Abt, Gordeva and Grinkov, Bareshnaya and Sikharalidze, and then take a look at Elena Sokolova and right away, you will see a huge difference as to edges.

On the finer details, between say Takeshi Honda and Plushenko, I see a difference. Honda has incredible edges, his entire body moves seamlessly with fine carriage and great flow and speed over the ice and although Plushenko can accellerate like mad, his edging is not quite up to the level of Honda's, or Yagudin's IMHO either, although I wouldn't say Plushenko's edging is deficient and I doubt he is marked down on the basics. I guess as to them, it would be kind of like the difference between Pavarotti and Gigli -- there are huge differences, but viva la difference, both are equally great.

P.S. I adore Honda, and even more after seeing him live at Campbells! He is soooo good, I just wish he could nail those jumps!

[BittyBug]

A good edge does not have to be quiet! Witness the "rip" that is sought after in power pulls. What you don't wan't to hear is scratching.

[Roma]

Hey, everybody. Great info so far! I have a related question. The first time I saw ice dancers in person (at Nationals), they had a completely different look to me than men, women, and pairs. I don't mean because the others do jumps, spins, etc. I mean the dancers moved so differently than skaters in the other 3 disciplines. Is it carriage? Depth of edge? Quality of edge? Any thoughts?

[Dustin]

Originally posted by BittyBug
A good edge does not have to be quiet! Witness the "rip" that is sought after in power pulls. What you don't wan't to hear is scratching.

Yes, the "rip" edge sound is usually indicative of a quiet edge, while scratchy usually means the skater is unbalanced. However, it is possible to have quiet deep edges.

[luna_skater]

To add to what's above, if you're not sure what the "ripping" sound is, watch for snow. Usually if you see snow flying and hear a noise on the ice, it means the skater is scraping his or her toe picks.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Originally posted by Roma
Hey, everybody. Great info so far! I have a related question. The first time I saw ice dancers in person (at Nationals), they had a completely different look to me than men, women, and pairs. I don't mean because the others do jumps, spins, etc. I mean the dancers moved so differently than skaters in the other 3 disciplines. Is it carriage? Depth of edge? Quality of edge? Any thoughts?

Well, because dance is mainly about edge quality, I think generally you can expect that senior dancers are going to, on average, have deeper and better edge quality than senior singles/pairs. Obviously, this is not a hard-and-fast rule; go down to the bottom of senior dance and you might find skaters whose edge quality is inferior to, say, Michelle Kwan. But dancers spend hours and hours working on the minutae of edges, wheras single skaters' attention to edge work probably varies depending on the coach. Some coaches really do emphasize it even with their non-dancers; other coaches don't.

As for carriage, you're definitely going to see a difference between dancers and singles skaters. (I'm only typing in singles b/c I'm lazy, but this all applies to pairs too). In dance, the upper body is supposed to be completely upright at all times, especially in compulsories, where singles skaters often lean forward at the waist just a hair to gain power and speed. My coach will actually demonstrate freestyler crossovers versus dancer crossovers, and the difference is in upper body and knee bend. Dancers come off the knee and move smoothly right back down, which is known as soft knee action. In freestyle it's acceptable to come up and down a little less smoothly, and they don't do it as noticeably because the drastic knee action used in dance isn't as necessary in freestyle. In fact, dancers don't usually do crossovers, they do progressives, in which the free foot actually crosses over on the ice. This adds to the soft knee action.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by BittyBug
A good edge does not have to be quiet! Witness the "rip" that is sought after in power pulls. What you don't wan't to hear is scratching.

Yeah...its by comparison that this is called quiet...I once watched Katia G. up in Simsbury for over a half hour for her daily practice...NOTICABLY "quiet" edges...maybe "seamless" is a better description, but I've always heard "quiet" to describe that.

Anyway, my point is that its not just visible...Katia's edges in the ice do not look as deep to me as say, Pasha Grishuk's or Yuka Sato's, but overall, no way is Katia's edging deficient by comparison to them, maybe to the contrary.