Dear ice rink companies and USFSA people....

[susan6]

I thought I'd post this on this board too, since the Rude Europeans on the other board can only sympathize with my plight.....

To any members of US ice rink management companies, figure skating associations, or anyone else involved in setting up and/or running ice rinks....heck, this includes you, Danny Kwan.....

Northern Florida needs ice rinks. Desperately.

I just moved here from Michigan, where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an ice rink. I used to skate 3-4 times a week. Then I moved to Tallahassee. Do you know where the nearest rink I've managed to find is? JACKSONVILLE. Pull up mapquest and gawk at the 160 mile drive I had to take to go skating this weekend. I basically crossed the top of the state of Florida. And when I arrived I found I wasn't the only one taking crazy roadtrips to go skating. There was one person from Gainesville (a mere 80 mile drive) and another person from Brunswick, Georgia (probably about a 70 mile drive). I've been looking all around Northern Florida and Southern Georgia, and Jacksonville still seems to be the only rink in this area. (I have not looked in Alabama....if you know of any towns in the southeast part of Alabama with an ice rink, let me know!)

Now, in case you're wondering about potential customers, here's what you're missing: Florida State University (Tallahassee), University of Florida (Gainesville), and everything in between, plus a large chunk of the state of Georgia. Thousands of college students with time on their hands. Both Universities have dabbled in hockey and either had or tried to develop ice rinks. FSU put their rink in the Civic Center in Tallahassee, on the same square footage as their NCAA basketball court. Guess which sport won that battle. The hockey team has folded and the rink is defunct. University of Florida tried to build a rink in Gainesville, but the plans fell through, according to the frustrated Gainesville resident I met in Jacksonville.

Yes, there are plenty of roller rinks in the area. Is that the same thing? Not even close.

So, to any ice rink management company that is looking for a place to set up another franchise.....consider northern Florida! (In particular, some place reasonably close to Tallahassee would be nice. Hey, it's the capital.) Little competition, lots of students, and maybe the occasional Gators/Seminoles hockey rumble. There's more to this area than swinging chads.

[Spider68]

Okay, I could be really mean and nasty...hey, why not!:twisted: You don't deserve a rink because:

1. Your Marlins beat the Cubs!
2. You messed up our last presidential election!
3. The one NHL team you have sucks! Roller rules! It ain't ice but try convincing the teams that go to Narch from Florida that it's a poor second cousin to ice.
4. It rains every time we go to Disneyworld.

Any others?

p.s. I hope someone that is serious and with bucks to burn reads your plea and maybe builds a rink. :D

[dbny]

You have my total sympathy, but I'm afraid that's all anyone can do for you. I have a CAM (Certificate in Arena Management) and am about to earn my CAO (Certificate in Arena Operations) from ISI. One of the most significant things I learned about the industry is that building and operating an ice arena is a fantastically expensive proposition. The climate in Florida makes it even more expensive, as the heat and humidity are both high, and therefor insure constant high electricity bills to freeze and maintain the ice, dehumidify the inside air, and keep the inside temp reasonable.

BTW, rollerskating is not the same, but is actually very close, with all the same jumps, spins, figures, and many of the same dances. If you get too frustrated you really should try it, at least as a supplement to your curtailed ice skating. If you are able to use inlines in a rink, that is even closer to the feel of ice skating.

[Schmeck]

susan6, I've dreamed of moving to Florida (near Walt Disney World, though, not Tallahassee) but if ice rinks are hard to come by, I'm rethinking my dreams, LOL!

And why doesn't Disney World have an ice rink on property?

Schmeck

[loveskating]

I TOTALLY sympathize with you...my folks moved 50 miles from the nearest rink when I was 9, and thus ended my figure skating, and began my roller skating, and its not anywhere near the same. FOr one thing, I had free lessons in figure skating, and in roller skating, I couldn't even find a teacher...and even backward crossovers were considered "dangerous" by that rink until I tought almost everyone else how to do them!

So, about the heat and humidity in Florida -- what is the cost of electricity there and what is the cost of taxes? On taxes, I bet you save a lot. I don't know anything about their power grid, but generally, electricity is plentiful and cheaper in the South.

Also, wages are lower, so you would save on construction, and on staff, so along with savings on power and taxes, that might make the up the difference as to heat and humidity??

Also, on Staten Island there is a city-owned indoor rink, and they close in the SUMMER! So that is also an alternative...better no summer than no rink at all!

There is a very successful ice rink in Austin, Texas, which is due west! I'm originally from Texas, and I'm certain that those mommies will take those kids to a rink if one is anywhere near. I suspect that culturally, people in Northern Fl are similar? I bet the place would be packed for public sessions, and that the skating club and the pros could not even accommodate everyone who wanted to skate.

Hockey is a different matter...since there is no tradition down there, and football is so very big, I'm not so sure that would float.

[blades]

8-)

i believe there will be a small "christmas" rink opening in gainsville next month...it may be only for the season...but enjoy...

[rudi]

Schmeck,
We do have a rink in the Orlando area: RDV Sportsplex in Maitland, FL, so don't let that stop you :)

I think there might actually be a second rink in Orlando too, but the name escapes me right now.


ps. I fulfilled my dream of moving to Orlando (near Disney) 9 years ago (we are from New Jersey), and it is great!

[Schmeck]

I know Orlando has a rink, but when we go on vacation to WDW, I really don't want to go "off-property", LOL! Besides, if Disney had a rink there, maybe Michelle Kwan would show up once in a while... :)

So, if I can talk my hubby into the move, after the kids graduate from high school (8 more years for Piglet, only 5 for Icy) you bet I'll be visiting the Orlando rinks!

And rudi, I'm so jealous that you've made the move. Don't you miss our lovely winters up here though? I mean, don't you miss ice and slush and wind chill... ;)

[dbny]

Originally posted by loveskating
So, about the heat and humidity in Florida -- what is the cost of electricity there and what is the cost of taxes? On taxes, I bet you save a lot. I don't know anything about their power grid, but generally, electricity is plentiful and cheaper in the South.

Also, wages are lower, so you would save on construction, and on staff, so along with savings on power and taxes, that might make the up the difference as to heat and humidity??

It's not just a question of money. The heat and humidity present real, physical problems to ice arena maintenance. It's too complicated to go into here, but believe me, running an ice rink in FL conditions is a true challenge. Building a rink anywhere costs millions, and a typical electric bill for a rink in a northern city could easily be $10,000 a month.

Originally posted by loveskating
Also, on Staten Island there is a city-owned indoor rink, and they close in the SUMMER! So that is also an alternative...better no summer than no rink at all!

The rink at Clove Lakes on Staten Island closes in May because it is not in a permanent structure. It is a dual surface in a bubble. If you've ever skated there in weather over about 45 degrees, you would notice the fog that makes seeing to the other side of the rink impossible. That kind of structure cannot be adequately dehumidified or refrigerated, which is why it closes for the summer.

[blades]

8-)

it ain't yer moma's amonia ice box anymore...

new ice rinks are much more efficient and, designed and built properly, do not have humidity problems like you mention...

most interesting challange to date...the person who is putting in the gainsville rink just installed a "tank" rink in thailand a few weeks ago for a rock show...believe me...if ya can make ice in as hot and humid a place as thailand...making ice in florida is a cakewalk!!!...;)

[icyboid]

Originally posted by blades
most interesting challange to date...the person who is putting in the gainsville rink just installed a "tank" rink in thailand a few weeks ago for a rock show...believe me...if ya can make ice in as hot and humid a place as thailand...making ice in florida is a cakewalk!!!...;)

Not to mention that there's an indoor ice rink in Hawai`i as well. ;)

[dbny]

Originally posted by blades
it ain't yer moma's amonia ice box anymore...
Ammonia is still the most efficient and environment friendly refrigerant in spite of it's bad name because of its bad odor. IMO, I prefer ammonia to R-22 (aka Freon), since you can detect it so easily and quickly with your nose, there is very little risk of injury or death in the event of a leak. Not so with R-22 or any of the other more modern refrigerants.

Originally posted by blades
new ice rinks are much more efficient and, designed and built properly, do not have humidity problems like you mention...

I just graduated from the course in ice arena operations given by the ISI and taught by experts in their fields. The last half day was on HVAC and was mostly about dessicant technology, which is vital to the ice arena industry. If you think humidity is not a problem, that is because of modern dessicant dehumidifiers, which are not cheap, and do not make the problem go away. It is a constant juggling act to maintain the correct temperature and humidity in an ice arena, not to mention the difficulties in maintaing quality ice. Just because the "plant" is not visible to the public, does not mean there isn't plenty going on behind the scenes.

[peaches]

I'd love to own my own rink, but I refuse to live below what we call the "gnat line". LOL FL and south GA have too many gnats and other buggy things going on.

[blades]

8-)

there is a much more environmently friendly freon that is manditory these days...

as for amonia...once you've been exposed to a leak (which can be deadly...), you won't ever want to be around that vile agent again!!!

it is interesting that in canada, amonia is the most common refigerant used in rinks and in the states, freon is the norm...

humidity problems have to be address from the design point of building a rink and on...concrete block and tilt-up concrete buildings allow moisture to pass through the walls like they're not there, unless they're sealed properly...but it's still a problem...steel buildings are prefferable...

[dbny]

The newer refrigerants such as AZ-50 and R-134a do not damage the ozone layer, but are much more damaging in other ways. There is a new standard called TEWI (Total Environmental Warming Impact, pronounced TeeWee) which rates these newer refrigerants as much more damaging to the global climate.

I've smelled ammonia before, as have most of us. The difference though, is that ammonia can be smelled when released in quantities much too small to do any harm, while R-22 leaks can only be detected with an electronic leak detector, and can kill at much lower concentrations than ammonia. Some communities have codes prohibiting the use of ammonia simply because of its noxious odor, but IMO, that's a mistake. An ammonia leak has no negative environmental impact, less ammonia is needed to run a chiller than other refrigerants, and it is the most economical on installation.

Of course humidity problems have to be addressed in building design, but that doesn't make them go away. I saw pix of ice arena ceilings full of water because the vapor barrier was installed on the wrong side, which is the right side for any "normal use" building. Fortunatley, that particular mistake is not too hard to work around.

If you are interested in these issues, I highly recommend the ISI Arena Operations course to you. It is a real eye opener.

[susan6]

Well, a temporary winter rink in Gainesville will be great for the Gators but not so great for me.....Jacksonville is a 3 hour drive due east from here; Gainesville is 3 hours southeast from here. The Jacksonville rink got a little foggy but not too bad....it looked like it had metal walls or at least metal sheeting on the walls.

"So, about the heat and humidity in Florida -- what is the cost of electricity there and what is the cost of taxes? On taxes, I bet you save a lot. I don't know anything about their power grid, but generally, electricity is plentiful and cheaper in the South."

Maybe the South in general, but in this particular town we have a National High Field Magnetic Lab that sucks up a full 10% of the electricity produced in this area. I've heard that they have been requested to turn off some of their magnetic experiments during particularly hot summers to make sure everyone can have air conditioning. So, as a person who needs air conditioning *and* plans to use the Mag Lab, I can't go around begging for an ice rink I guess. Man, it sucks to be me.

Can you do good spins on roller skates? That was my favorite (and best) skill in figure skating. When you get a good spin going, it's like a free high. Are these roller skates your standard cheesy old style 4-wheel kind, or in-lines?

Peaches....I haven't noticed that many gnats around here....

[dbny]

Originally posted by susan6
Can you do good spins on roller skates? That was my favorite (and best) skill in figure skating. When you get a good spin going, it's like a free high. Are these roller skates your standard cheesy old style 4-wheel kind, or in-lines?

You can do all the spins on roller skates. A quality pair of quads are not cheesy, and not cheap either. Don't take my word for it though, take a look at these video clips: Roller Sports International (http://www.rsweb.org/MOVIES/artistic.html)