Campbell's Results thread*spoilers* of course [Archive]

danibellerika

10-03-2003, 08:09 PM

Ok, I just got off the phone with Adrian. He said Plush won by a long mile in terms of marks and looked to be the only one to do any quads. He had a slight turnout with a 3toe in combo and stepped out of a 3axle but added a double toe to it. He skated to his program from last season. Timmy doubled things like his axle and it didn't look like he did quads. Tim and Weiss both have new programs. And there was a tie for 4th between Smith, Honda, and Jahnke. He'll call me back after the ladies with some details about that.

Stevie

10-03-2003, 08:40 PM

Thank you.:)

ellen

10-03-2003, 09:14 PM

Louis just called. We got cut off. Sasha won! She did 5 clean triples. Kwan was 2nd, also with 5 triples but her Lutz wasn't very good. She is skating to Tosca. AP was 3rd, pretty good. Also did 5 triples. Kirk was 4th.

Fumie was pretty bad, only did 2 triples. Sokolova was awful, doubled everything.

danibellerika

10-03-2003, 09:30 PM

Ok! Adrian called me back with more details:

For the marks sasha got straight 5.8s for tech and straight 5.9s for pres.

Here's what Adrian called and told me about Sasha:
3z/2t
3f/2t
3l
camel
sit spin
I - spin
2a(a little wonky but landed)
spiral
combo spin w/biellman
spread eagle
3toe
3flip
3sal
layback
straight line footwork
last combo spin with camel, sit,layback, backsit,bielman?(he wasn't sure what kind of spin it was exactly).

Tigger

10-03-2003, 10:34 PM

Was this Sasha's new LP?

danibellerika

10-03-2003, 10:39 PM

Yes it was the debut of her "Swan Lake" program. Dress and all.

miranda

10-03-2003, 10:40 PM

Congradulations to the best skater in America- Sasha has just won Campbells' HURRAY!

Tigger

10-03-2003, 10:55 PM

Thanks Dani!! And Adrian!!

danibellerika

10-03-2003, 11:43 PM

Glad to do it!

mission99

10-04-2003, 12:11 AM

Can anyone tell me how Michelle's new program looked and what jumps she had in it??

danibellerika

10-04-2003, 12:43 AM

From this report, it makes it seem like if you've seen MK's programs from the past two seasons, you've seen this one.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7226

miranda

10-04-2003, 12:46 AM

LoL Dani.

danibellerika

10-04-2003, 12:56 AM

Hey, I'm just summarizing. They even said something like that in there.

Schmeck

10-04-2003, 06:14 AM

Did Sasha clean up her lutz enough to call it a true one? I think that would be her last hurdle. I know it wasn't in the true horrid class of Sarah/Tara ankle snapping edge change, more of the typical American slight edge change/flat type, but a true lutz would be the cherry on the top, so to speak.

And many thanks to Adrian and Louis for the detailed results!

Schmeck

PS - skaters do axels, not axles... (it's my pet peeve on skating forums, don't ya know)

AxelAnnie22

10-04-2003, 09:26 AM

Sasha Sasha Sasha Sasha

What a night. Shasha was skating on an entirely different plane than anyone else there. Her program is gorgeous, balanced, and beautifully laid out. She just ticked off those elements. She filled the arena from end to end. And that spiral! The arena was in awe. And the fan sprial is back along with the Sasha spin. It was worth the $171 for the tickets- the flight from California, and what I went through in the week proceeding to get here.

viennese

10-04-2003, 12:13 PM

thanks to all for the reports.

and you, axelannie! shelling out for the airfare, the competition tickets. that's hardcore. i'm glad you saw some great skating.

i'm disappointed that it will be such a long wait til this is on tv.

Emmaly

10-04-2003, 03:42 PM

When is there going to be tv coverage??

miranda

10-04-2003, 04:18 PM

Axel Annie- I loved your post. I wish I could have seen Sasha's win. She is terrific!

skipaway

10-04-2003, 05:36 PM

coverage is Oct 19th at 1-3pm on ABC

skipaway

loveskating

10-04-2003, 05:53 PM

Just want to add that the audience gave Sasha a full standing ovation, people were shouting and very exicted -- and it kept up until she got off the ice, all the time it was raining flowers and toys!

I was right above the kiss and cry...Tatiana was crying, and when Sasha came off the ice, she looked so calm and like she was really having fun! It was great to see.

Same for Plushenko.

miranda

10-04-2003, 06:40 PM

Certainly glad to hear of the full standing ovation. They sure aren't saying anything about that on the other boards(lol), except Sasha's of course. Thanks for all the wonderful updates guys.

Louis

10-04-2003, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Schmeck
Did Sasha clean up her lutz enough to call it a true one?

I was sitting in the lutz corner, and Sasha was on the inside edge a good 10 feet before she took off. So, the short answer is "no way" :)

Tigger

10-04-2003, 09:44 PM

Of course it would be aired the weekend I'm down for Kurt's show and my parents won't be here either. While I can program my VCR, things can still happen....Grrrr!!!

loveskating

10-06-2003, 06:49 AM

MK did her second lutz by me, she POPPED it...she did not single or double it. I couldn't see what happened with the first lutz combo attempt but it was serious...looked like a total two foot to me but it was at the other end of the rink??

I agree that if you've seen MK's programs before, this program was not any different. To skate to elucevan le stelle, she needs a hard edge, very dramatic choreography and lots of passion and angst...and a RED dress, preferably velvet. I didn't know she was going to use that music, so at first I was impressed...but the choreography doesn't work for me.

What was with Sasha's flip...again, on the other end of the rink, I could not see details...some bauble on the landing?

loveskating

10-09-2003, 03:12 PM

Sasha did her axel right by me...she overrotated it a bit, so much power that she had too much speed coming out and had to dig her toe pick in to stabilize...not exactly "wonky", just her typical mistake of having so much power in her jumps that she can overrotate them. HUGE axel and lots of speed into it!

What impressed me more live was her speed and ice coverage, not to mention the choreography and the way one thing led to another and the program built...not many strokes backwards or forwards, lots of edges, and great transitions.

I was also impressed by her air position on the jumps, which I already knew was steller, but the comparison with Plushenko was just so very clear.

But the quality was amazing...one thing after anohter, the spiral and the layback alone are just spectacular...not to mention the side catch spin, which was used better choreographically IMHO.

This was NOT a methodical performance, as was posted on some other board and referenced here. This was a really passionate skate but calm, not rushed...which is probably why most people there were cheering madly before she even finished, and then literlaly exploded out of their seats in a standing ovation.

AxelAnnie22

10-09-2003, 05:42 PM

Hi LoveSkating.

Perceptive posts.

I was at the opposite end of the arena from the kiss & cry. Michelle did pop that second lutz. Went up, opened up, and came down.

Sasha had a certain calm about her....but it took nothing away from her dramatic interpretation of the piece of music.

Each element was gorgeous (Axel and all).

I love the placement of her catch-foot spin. And am thrilled that both the fan spiral and Sasha skid are back in.

She was prepared, and it showed. And, what's better is that she was able to communicate what was in her heart to the almost 10,000 people in that arena!

Win, loose or draw, it was a performance I will always remember.

I can't wait to see it on TV, and hear what Uncle Dick has to say!

:D

miranda

10-09-2003, 06:44 PM

Me too AxelAnnie- is that on oct 19th? Espn?

AxelAnnie22

10-09-2003, 09:19 PM

I think it is on ABC

turintorino

10-09-2003, 09:21 PM

can someone tell me who the sweepers were? I recognized them but I couldn't put a name to the face

turtlehead

10-14-2003, 10:53 PM

I know that I am late posting this, but I just wanted to say contrats to Sasha! She is so amazing and I am so excited about her this season! GO SASHA!!!

dbny

10-19-2003, 02:07 PM

I just saw this on TV, though I missed all the men except Honda and Plushenko.

Sasha was unbelievable! My favorite was her incredibly slow camel with arms fanning like wings. It was so controlled and graceful. I think she's finally gotten the idea of winning out of her head while she is on the ice, and is just skating her heart out. I hope this is the beginning of a consistent season and many more for her. She's been my favorite since Oksana Baiul, and it's been heartbreaking to see such beautiful artistry sacrificed to a single botch so many times.

Dolly

10-19-2003, 03:02 PM

I just watched it on TV also. Loved Sasha. She's seemed so focused throughout the program. Amazing artistry, especially that spin with her arm behind her head. (I'll watch my tape again later.) Glad she made it through, almost flawless. It's going to be a great season!

Debbie S

10-19-2003, 05:42 PM

I agree, Sasha was great. But that costume - are she and A-P in some kind of a competition to see who can wear the most ridiculously overdone dress? She's such a beautiful skater (they both are) and I wish she'd wear a simple, elegant dress that accentuates her line and presentation. How about plain white with some sparkles? Actually, I remember when Sarah Hughes did Swan Lake, I thought the black, strapless-looking dress she wore at Worlds was nice. I don't understand why skaters feel that have to dress like the subject of their music. If they're not doing a human character piece, how about a costume that conveys the spirit of their music without distracting the audience? I realize that Sasha and A-P are portraying swans, but all the feathers and such just looked over-the-top. Both skaters are way too talented to feel that they have to go that far to express their music.

Sasha's performance could be a breakthrough. We'll have to see how she does as the season progresses. I thought MK did a great job given her boot circumstances - as a skater, I can tell you that breaking in new boots is no picnic, and my skates are nowhere near as cement-like as the skates that elite skaters wear. Tosca has potential - I imagine that the skaters will go over the feedback that the U.S. officials gave them following the comp as to how their programs will fare under CoP (I'm pretty sure I read they were doing this at Campbell's) and I'm sure MK, Scott Williams, and Morosov will fine-tune the program. I wish MK had the chance to perform her program again before Nats, but I guess she decided it wasn't necessary. And her dress was fabulous - a little too low-cut, but fabulous.

I hope Jenny Kirk can pull it together for the GP events. Her ballet training really enhances her presentation. She probably does need to reach out the the audience more. As for Elena Sokolova - well, ugh! - and someone needs to tell her that Plushenko's haircut does not look good on her.

Pupiczech

10-19-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Debbie S
As for Elena Sokolova - well, ugh! - and someone needs to tell her that Plushenko's haircut does not look good on her.

It doesn't look good on him either.

Schmeck

10-19-2003, 06:37 PM

Pupiczech, LOL! I agree, they both need a trim...

Sasha definitely earned this win. I have three things to point out though -

1. She really needs to clean up that lutz (it'll show up more in the new judging system) That wonky lutz/flip jump was nasty too!

2. She needs to put her hair in a bun to make the unique arm position in one of her spins look better - I couldn't tell what was arm and what was hair - I just kept wondering what she was trying to do

3. The spiral sequence needs to be rechoreographed so she's not doing the 'look at my crotch' part right in front of the judges! 8O

Michelle really dropped the ball on this one. I wish she would come up with new combo spins, or something. Her dress - I was thinking that perhaps it was one from another year that she never wore in competition? Kind of like recycling it, maybe her dress for this season isn't ready yet, just like she hadn't broken in her new boots in time either!

Schmeck

ceceB

10-19-2003, 07:11 PM

I thought Sasha was amazing! I thought her costume fit pretty nicely, to be perfectly honest. I agree with everyone who thought it looked odd before she skated, but thought it was perfect once she got going.

I never had any trouble with differentiating between Sasha's hair and arm, I thought that spin was awesome. We all started laughing at Dick when she did it though, he get's so excited.

My favorite Dick quote was "there's another triple axel, only this one wasn't a good one, since it was a double" :D Oh Dick.

Okay, are there really sandwiches like that in New York? 8O How could anyone possibly eat that!?

cocanuts

10-19-2003, 07:25 PM

i love how people say michelle dropped the ball when her performance here was a lot better then cambells last season and she had new boots on. anyways, here are my thoughts-
michelle-i like the program, i think it suites her and works well, and i see tons of potential for it. and i liked the costume a lot.
sasha-i actually didnt think the choreo etc was her best. its not my fav program shes done but im sure it will grow on me. great start!
AP-liked the program but she had no passion, she didnt seem intense or into it. sluggish jumps too. i still think romeo and juliet is her best program.
jenny-i actually saw a lot of improvement in jenny. i thought her jumps looked better, especially the loop. however i liked her choreo last year more. there was more going on last year were as this year its just skating around with pretty arms. she also needs some more spins/variety of spins.
sokolova-what happened! has she just been eating ssince worlds? the program seemed dull as well and all i could think of was that she was destroying angelas masterpiece to this music. i think like dick button said, she will be ready in december-january.

miranda

10-19-2003, 08:31 PM

I loved Sasha. I did not like anyone's costume except Jenny Kirk's. Tosca needs red velvet, MK looked like the Easter Bunny in lavender, although her hair and makeup was perfect. Sasha does need a new hair style and more makeup. She is too beautiful to go out on the ice with that ponytail. The most important thing is that Sasha won! Sasha's footwork and layback are unbeatable. Michelle will have to add alot of footwork and at least one major jump if she wants Worlds this year. This is not the old Worlds, it's the COP.

miranda

10-19-2003, 09:02 PM

Ok, thanks Bondo. I won't be really happy untill the COP is fully in place. I know I'm in the minority on this. Hope I do not offend anyone.

MQSeries

10-19-2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
Edit: The reason Michelle won't win isn't CoP...it is Germany...Michelle wins pretty much only in the US.

Hey, are you Maria Buteskya ;)

1) I hope Michelle change her music and choreography. Tosca is too ponderous for her. The choreography needs more highlights. I can't believe Nicolai gave her basically the same routine as last year. She needs to add some different moves, ie. do a different spiral sequence, put in a split-falling leaf in the beginning, do a camel in the other direction, anything...

2) AP's dress was too distracting. She was supposed to be a swan, not wearing one! I also think she should select a different piece of music, because this program does not compare well to Sasha's at all. The lean and hooked landings on her jumps gave them an insecure feelings. I'm afraid those flaws will be her nemesis as she gets older and the competitive pressure becomes greater. She also skates with no connection to the audience whatsoever.

3) Sasha deserved the win. It was also nice to hear what she had to say about MK during the interview with Peter Carruthers.

4) Tim Goeble's program was boring. Lori Nichol came up with that?

5) I agree with Dick's assessment that Weiss's musical arrangement could have been stronger. I didn't really care for the choreography. And why bother wearing the freedom blade if you're not reallly going to use it during the performance?

6) Love Ryan Yanke's style and program. I'm a sucker for a good forward camel spin and Ryan's has one of the best. But he better get the 3x back ....

supersk8er

10-20-2003, 01:32 AM

Wow...Great reports everyone. I was watching a regional competition all day, and so I missed the broadcast...But all of these posts make me feel up-to-date! Thanks! :)

Not even 10% sure what COP is...Someone care to explain?

Schmeck

10-20-2003, 05:47 AM

Gee, all those times Michelle won Worlds, they actually held those competitions in the US? And Skate Canada too? And the Japan Open? Trophee Lalique in 1996? Gardena Spring Trophy back in 1993?

hmmm, next someone will be telling us that we never landed astronauts on the moon, lol!

Tapper

10-20-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Bondo

The reason Michelle won't win isn't CoP...it is Germany...Michelle wins pretty much only in the US.

I thought the outcome of Worlds wasn't decided until the event took place. You mean the the outcome is fixed? Where did you hear that Michelle won't win?

loveskating

10-20-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Schmeck
Gee, all those times Michelle won Worlds, they actually held those competitions in the US? And Skate Canada too? And the Japan Open? Trophee Lalique in 1996? Gardena Spring Trophy back in 1993?

hmmm, next someone will be telling us that we never landed astronauts on the moon, lol!

The salient point of those posts was that IF Kwan doesn't win, its almost always claimed that its because of something other than how she actually skated...and how others skated in relation to her...this time, the COP or skating out of the country...but there have been many, many reasons offered in the past, from the skate order to outrage that she was actually given the MANDATORY deduction for splatting on her 2 axel in the SP at 1999 Worlds, not to mention Irina's less than perfect runouts on a 3 lutz/3 loop and a 3 sal/3 loop!

IMHO, in the real world, when Kwan has lost, she deserved to lose based on NOTHING but the skating...and a few times, when she won, others outskated her, IMHO (that goes for Yagudin, Irina and Plushenko, too -- I HATE it when the judges hold up winning skaters).

Tapper

10-20-2003, 10:38 AM

I thought that Sasha's performance was exquisite. It's a beautiful program and I think it was brilliantly conceived. The music, the costume, the choreography... perfection. I wondered about the pony tail too, but figured she and her coach must have a reason for not putting her hair up in a bun. Maybe it has something to do with honoring the idea of sport rather than ballet? Whatever the reason, they know what they are doing, and it's fine with me.

I wouldn't be surprised if this became one of her signature pieces. I know I look forward to seeing it again.

PS - and this is coming from a rabid MK fan

Tapper

10-20-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Bondo
I guess my problem is not having actively watched skating before 2002 I'm not biased by remembering when Michelle was good so I rate her just on how she actually skates at present.

Maybe not biased with memory of past performances, but you may still be biased in your views of MK, American audiences, and judges.

loveskating

10-20-2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
Well, I was mainly going for...American crowds love Michelle (for some reason) and the judges are influcenced by the reflex standing ovations they give her. When outside of the US the fans and the judges are less likely to respond. I have a feeling if you averaged her scores in the US vs. outside the US there would be a reasonably noticable difference in favor of the US.

I guess my problem is not having actively watched skating before 2002 I'm not biased by remembering when Michelle was good so I rate her just on how she actually skates at present.

You will be happy to know that at Campbells, Sasha received the exact same volume when she came on the ice as MK did...I was there.

However, Sasha received an explosive and long standing ovation at the end of her performance, and ABC did not show the rain of flowers etc. Really, the only ones sitting must have been either unable to get up or hard core fans of some other skater, it was just that magical a skate. That is why Tarasova had tears in her eyes...because the public embraced Sasha so obviously!

People also stood up for Plushenko, but it was not as explosive. You know what I mean...you look around and people are slowly getting up...with Sasha, it was like the vast majority of people were on their feet instantly when the music stopped.

MK's hard core fans stood at the end of MK's performance...but hardly anyone else did. There was a group of them just behind me who actually booed Sasha when she got on the ice, and did not stand up either.

For some perspective, its not easy to get a New York audience to give ANYONE a standing ovation...we have access to a very high level of culture for very little money, so we cannot be milked. Even at SOI, the very Scott Hamilton could not ever get most of a Madison Square Garden audience to stand up at the end of the shows I've seen...and he is a great "milker".

loveskating

10-20-2003, 12:42 PM

I loved Tim's program...and saw much improvement in his overall artistry...I'm curious about why those who don't like it don't like it.

Alexa

10-20-2003, 01:11 PM

I wish I would have seen Tim's program. It must have been on in the first 15 minutes because that is all of the program I missed, and I never saw his program the rest of the competition.

It was strange, though, because when I turned on the show at 15 minutes in, there was all of the discussion from Peggy, Dick, and Terry (Dick at the sandwich shop, Peggy on the carriage, etc), making it look like they had not shown any skaters yet. Did they show Tim's program, then go to commercial, and then have another introduction by the commentators?

jpeach

10-20-2003, 01:29 PM

Another rabid MK fan joining in here, lol...

I liked Michelle's program, didn't love it, didn't stand up in my living room saying "wow." I've come to rely on MK to deliver stellar performances, and then when/if they are a shade less, I feel like they are very much less. I hope that makes sense.

I wanted to see new moves, not the same layback (and I mention this while ducking because I really don't want to start a debate about laybacks and whose is more difficult). My point is that MK's layback has been dissected so much that you'd think she'd add a very-well-done "standard" layback.

Still, this was the first go-round for her new program. MK is known for tightening and improving and honing throughout the season. I'm not worried. The only time I didn't see a program improve during the season was her Oly LP. That just never made it for me (except the fab footwork).

AP dress was stunning and I know I'm in the minority here. Her body is finally one of a young woman, no longer a girl in dress-up.

Sasha looked calmer than I have ever seen her. Wow. Loved her program and she deserved the win, no contest.

I also noticed a humbleness (is that a word) in her interview. Could just be good PR training, or maybe she is understanding just how truly difficult it is to reach to top as well as stay there.

Alexa

10-20-2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by jpeach

Sasha looked calmer than I have ever seen her. Wow. Loved her program and she deserved the win, no contest.

I also noticed a humbleness (is that a word) in her interview. Could just be good PR training, or maybe she is understanding just how truly difficult it is to reach to top as well as stay there.

I noticed that as well. You can sense she is truly learning a lot about herself. I really respect that she is constantly working to take her skating to a new level and always working on improving those things that are difficult for her--such as working on her consistency and trying to bring it out in competition. You can really tell that she has been working hard to prepare herself and improve--not necessarily just by how she skated, but also how she talks about it and the determination she has to keep working at it.

Though I love Sasha and have wanted her to win all of this time, she is one of the skaters that you can see the long journey and not winning has benefitted her. In the end, she will truly be a strong skater because she has had to work and put in a lot of time for her success. She is unique because she is so talented that it looks like success and winning would come easy for her, but it hasn't.

Whereas in the case of Sarah and Tara and Oksana, though they worked for their success as well, it came a bit sooner than even they expected, and because of that they no longer had the drive to keep skating and to improve their skating.

Michelle is a prime example of how having the longer journey can be the best thing for a long and successful skating career.

AxelAnnie22

10-20-2003, 02:12 PM

jpeach:
We can be a small group. I loved AP's dress too. And, totally agree with your comments about both Michelle and Sasha.

loveskating

10-20-2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Alexa
I wish I would have seen Tim's program. It must have been on in the first 15 minutes because that is all of the program I missed, and I never saw his program the rest of the competition.

It was strange, though, because when I turned on the show at 15 minutes in, there was all of the discussion from Peggy, Dick, and Terry (Dick at the sandwich shop, Peggy on the carriage, etc), making it look like they had not shown any skaters yet. Did they show Tim's program, then go to commercial, and then have another introduction by the commentators?

Tim's was the first one at Campbells and the first one on the telecast too.

I don't recall how ABC set it up...I did see from the telecast that both Tim and Frank were disappointed in Tim's presentation marks...well, I think this is one heck of a well constructed program, and when he skates the heck out of it, he might bring the house down...at least I hope so. The music builds and so does the program...its one of those Lori Nichol things where you don't need to know the music to be emotionally affected.

miranda

10-20-2003, 02:48 PM

I agree with both your assessments of MK's skating. Always excuses from the fans if she doesn't win. It doesn't surpise me about the booing of Sasha by Michelle's fans either. I'm so glad Sasha made the arena explode with standing O's. It's time.

loveskating

10-20-2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22

jpeach:
We can be a small group. I loved AP's dress too. And, totally agree with your comments about both Michelle and Sasha.

I loved it live at Campbells too, but after seeing it on television, I think she could lose the swan "drawing" on the front...just BE a swan, don't depict one, and then she could also lose the rhinestones on the back, just have flesh maybe? I think that would enhance the feeling of her costume as being feathery and with lots of flow over the ice.

I think A.P.'s face is so pretty and "big"...I don't mean in size, I mean that you can see her features from the stands, kind of like Krylova, the ice dancer... so I feel that the flashy costumes really work for A.P. and even balance her out. I don't think simplicity would work nearly as well for her. It works well for some, but not for everyone...

Debbie S

10-20-2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Bondo
Well, I was mainly going for...American crowds love Michelle (for some reason) and the judges are influcenced by the reflex standing ovations they give her. When outside of the US the fans and the judges are less likely to respond. I have a feeling if you averaged her scores in the US vs. outside the US there would be a reasonably noticable difference in favor of the US.

Get hold of tapes of 2000 and 2001 Worlds, not to mention 1996. The crowd reaction at the end of MK's programs there was just as loud as any at Nats or SA. OK, I realize 1996 and 2001 Worlds were in Canada and there were probably lots of Americans there, so focus on 2000 in Nice. Does everyone remember the horns (or other noisemakers) blowing?

Actually, I've read and heard that the audience at World Champs held in Europe is mostly Americans and Canadians. For some reason, Europeans don't seem to fill the arenas, which are smaller than North Am arenas anyway (at least, that's what I read in some skating article a few years ago). Of course, the audience at Euros seems to be plentiful and spirited, so who knows? But I think there will be plenty of Americans in Dortmund to cheer on MK. However, as we all know, it's not up to the audience, it's up to the judges, and an audience's boost can only go so far.

It may turn out that the judges will be "choosing" between MK and Sasha. At that point, national bias will pretty much be a non-factor, unless Tarasova's got some judges in her pocket or something.;) (that was not meant to be an accusation)

rudi

10-20-2003, 03:49 PM

Okay, I'll weigh in here on AP's costume. I really liked the costume, but I think if she lost the swan head on the front, her costume would be much, much better. The swan head was distracting me, and it appears others have said the same thing. NOTE TO AP's MOM if you are reading: can you replace the swan head w/some illusion fabric? (Hey, it doesn't hurt to ask!)...I did like her program.

I think Michelle's program will improve w/time. I am a big, big, Michelle fan, but yes, I do wish she would mix it up a bit, especially with her spin combos.

Liked Sasha's program a lot. Just like last year, if she hits all her jumps, she will be hard to beat this season.

Liked Ryan J.'s program. Hope he is able to hit his jumps at Nationals.

Think Tim's presentation has definitely continued to improve. He still has work ahead of him to be on the level of Plushenko/Yagudin, but he seems pretty driven to succeed, so I wish him the best. Unlike some people, I liked his music selection.

Didn't get to see Michael, Takeshi, Elena, Jenny, or Plushenko, as I was doing housework while this was on. I taped it though, so I will go back and watch.

Schmeck

10-20-2003, 04:20 PM

I've been watching figure skating for over 30 years...

I agree that Michelle has not won much outside of the US, most likely since she has chosen not to compete much outside the US. I'll be the first to admit that it's hard to win when you chose not to compete :roll:

She wins in front of international judges - doesn't matter what country it's in. The Russian judges didn't mind cheating in the US, remember... :roll: So I don't think it matters to the judges what country they're in, especially with the newer scoring systems.

I'll also be the first to admit that Michelle needs to reinvent herself again - it's like she's in a very comfortable rut, style-wise. I don't think we'll be seeing any 3-3 combos from her, unless Sasha starts nailing them in complete, unflawed programs at the GP. But I wonder if Michelle is a bit concerned now about her level of comfort?

Can't wait to see how this season turns out between Sasha and Michelle - how long until Nationals? LOL

miranda

10-20-2003, 05:51 PM

Oh Michelle might squeak by Nats again. However, she should be real worried about Worlds. lol. She has won many Nats but the rest of the world does not view her with shock and awe like some crazed fans in the U.S. Mk better start jumping soon. Real soon.

AxelAnnie22

10-20-2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by loveskating
I loved it live at Campbells too, but after seeing it on television, I think she could lose the swan "drawing" on the front...just BE a swan, don't depict one, and then she could also lose the rhinestones on the back, just have flesh maybe?

. Forgot to mention the Swan Head. Doesn't need that! fer sure, fer sure.

loveskating

10-21-2003, 08:28 AM

"Well, I was mainly going for...American crowds love Michelle (for some reason) and the judges are influcenced by the reflex standing ovations they give her."

I recognize the phenomenon you are talking about for sure...but no one has any proof that the judges are influenced by such things. They ought not to be. At SLC, there were instances to the contrary...for instance, Ina & Zimmerman got more applause etc. than B&S, but the judges were not influenced.

Other things, however, are known -- for instance, it is a bona fide fact that last season the USFSA, not the judges, asked Kwan to participate in Skate America because Sarah Hughes withdrew, and the USFSA did not believe the event had "drawing power" without Michelle.

It is also a fact that when anyone else wins, the news in the US is not, for instance, the landing of the first 3 lutz/3 loop by a woman, but the news is "__________ beat Michelle Kwan!" That "slant" is very clearly the POV of ABC, most newspapers and probably of the USFSA. I learned in journalism 101 that this is the way to keep the focus on an issue or person, to make them the center of attention...the professor's lecture was titled, "Say whatever you like, but spell my name correctly." I vividly recall it because it was one of the manipulative things about journalism that caused me to change my major.

In the real world, at Campbells, Michelle blew her lutz combo and her second lutz, and had other problems too, but those alone under any usual circimstances, would take anyone entirely off the podium in almost ANY international amateur competition I can recall. In fact, despite claims that this debut was better, I don't recall Michelle EVER blowing both lutzes...I could be wrong, but I think that she has two footed (slightly) or had some bad landings on her lutz in combination and she has fallen on the second lutz, but not both in one LP. One can make of that whatever they like...does it mean she is past her peak, or is it just a glitch?

As for Nationals, who knows? No one can predict how people will skate. In 1998, Kulik sliced his foot doing a lutz in practice, and was on crutches for SIX weeks...then his back was injured so badly no one thought he could possibly skate at the olympics! He had the skate of his life and won.

quarkiki2

10-21-2003, 11:28 AM

OK. So I have to admit that I am a dork and completely forgot about this being televised this past weekend, but I did see a clip of Michelle's skate here on the net. I was expecting to see something truly mediocre, but I actually saw more potential in this program than I saw in last year's Aranjuez debut.

More than that, I saw a skater completely at peace with what she's doing. She wasn't "skating scared" like she did in 1997 and 2002 when she was coachless. Whether or not we like it or want to see her putting more into the program, she is clearly comfortable with the way she skated at Campbell's, regardless of what others are doing. And then she says she was thinking her way through her program? I can't wait to see it when she's not. All last season and also this competition she seems to be skating with an openness in her chest area that is very powerful -- it's like she's literally opening her body, letting go, and carrying her performance with her soul. And this is a work in progress??

And before y'all think I'm a rabid Kwanatic, I'm actually just someone who has a lot of movement training, 'kay? It's part of what I teach and I am taught to recognize where people are holding tension and most of us living in the world hold tension across our chests to protect our hearts. She's NOT doing that. At all.

Now, to Sasha. Although I haven't seen her performance to Swan Lake (and I DEEPLY regret that), I am so glad that she's moving forward with innovations and consistency. I have been waiting for her to really take charge of her nerves and show us what she's really made of -- I think many of her past performances have given us glimpses, but I am so ready to see all of her magnificence come together -- it will be a performace for the ages. I seem to sense in her statements and interviews the desire to go out there and skate for herself the way she knows she can. I think that when she stops trying to prove how good she is, she will reach greatness.

I think it should be a tremendously interesting season. I hope that Sasha can build on her momentum and show up to Nationals relaxed and ready to skate for herself -- I hope that this victory doesn't affect her nerves negatively. But mostly, I hope that we get to see some unbelievable performances from some of the most talentd skaters ever to hit the ice.

Tapper

10-21-2003, 12:16 PM

Quarkiki2, well said... great post!

MQSeries

10-21-2003, 01:00 PM

The major concern I have with Kwan's program at Campbell is that it's practically identical to the program last year, and it doesn't even look like it relates to the music at all. I hope Nicolai didn't charge her any $$$ for that routine, becaue it didn't look like he put any effort into it. I know it's early in the season but even with Aranjuez, the program itself didn't change much at all by the time Nationals rolled around, although MK was able to take her performance level up seveal notches by then. I'm also worry for her that all of the elements seem to the same year after year. I like Kwan a lot and want her to do well, but I'm not sure how much the judges are willing to award her now if they think that she's doing the same old, same old again. I think she should mix up her elements a little more, ie. throw in a split-falling leaf in the beginning that can flow right into a 3toe wally, do two more falling leaves at the end, do the spin combination that includes a layback like she did in FOG, or end the program with a dynamic footwork sequence that goes right into a spin combination like last year short program instead of doing the spread eagle - death drop thing again .... It just seems like there should be a lot of possibilites for her and Nicolai to mix things up, but someone is not willing to do it.

Come one MK, Nicolai, and Scott Williams. You guys can do it again this year, but most likely it can't give the appearance of being the same old thing again.

danibellerika

10-21-2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by quarkiki2
Now, to Sasha. Although I haven't seen her performance to Swan Lake (and I DEEPLY regret that), I am so glad that she's moving forward with innovations and consistency.

Never fear. Just right click and "save target as"

http://adrianchew.homeip.net/videos/03CampbellFS.wmv

Of course uploads are never as good as seeing it on tv, but it's better than nothing.

quarkiki2

10-21-2003, 03:21 PM

Thanks! I will watch this tomorrow on my lunch break (I'm at work and can't be too obviously NOT working, LOL!)

miranda

10-21-2003, 03:37 PM

LS- I wondered the same thing. How could anyone who blew 2 lutz's even be on the podium? Maybe she has a contract that says she must be on the podium in all U. S. events? Is this possible?

quarkiki2

10-21-2003, 04:06 PM

Miranda, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I haven't seen this event (and I'm NOT trying to start a war). Who do you think should have placed above Michelle? If I recall correctly, she had straight 2nd place ordinals, so all of the judges were in agreement.

And are you saying that if a skater only has one lutz planned in a program and they two-foot it they shouldn't place on the podium? They wouldn't have any lutzes, either. This could play into effect for Sasha -- say she two fots her one lutz, what then? Does she replace her second flip with a lutz? Would that help or hurt her? (Again, these are serious questions!)

And, if you could flutzing as serious an offense as two-footing, then Nicole Bobek and Sarah Hughes shouldn't have landed on any podium, either, because they never had any lutzes in any of their programs.

miranda

10-21-2003, 10:26 PM

hmm... SLC, very strange time for skating in general. I did find it odd that there were few mentions of Michelle's fall by her fans. All I heard or read at the time was how under/over rotated Sarah's 3/3's were and that is why MK should have won. Also because she had won the SP. Excuse me....she fell.

loveskating

10-22-2003, 08:26 AM

Myself, I wasn't questioning the marks at Campbells at all; instead, I was talking about the level of Michelle's skating right now. It is not typical of her to seriously miss both her lutz combo and her second lutz in one LP and make other mistakes!

At the Olympics, in the LP Kwan landed the two lutzes and one in combination was with a 2loop (got more credit than with a toe loop)...and fell on the flip...Sasha fell on her 3 lutz/3 TL combo, which cost her a lot by the rules...how many times have we seen posts from experts saying how the two lutzes are the key in the LP in international competition..that you can't blow them unless others do as well? Me, I have no issues with the ladies LP marks at SLC...only with the SP marks, which IMHO were way off (and I am hardly the only one...Jane Torvil, for instance, had some issues with those SP marks...I would have marked it Irina, Sasha and Michelle in the SP).

Anyway, personally, I think Michelle's last truly great skate was the LP at 2001 Worlds, for win, lose or draw, I cannot honestly say that I have seen her skate at that level of quality AND difficulty since then. That was an awesome skate...although my favorite Kwan is still the Red Violin LP at Worlds the year before...I just personally liked the choreography of that program better.

quarkiki2

10-22-2003, 08:50 AM

OK, I'm quoting myself because I am really curious as to what would happen to Sasha should she NOT land a lutz. Anyone???

Originally posted by quarkiki2
And are you saying that if a skater only has one lutz planned in a program and they two-foot it they shouldn't place on the podium? They wouldn't have any lutzes, either. This could play into effect for Sasha -- say she two fots her one lutz, what then? Does she replace her second flip with a lutz? Would that help or hurt her? (Again, these are serious questions!)

turtlehead

10-22-2003, 12:58 PM

It's interesting how much people talk about skaters that they cannot stand. Is it just to discredit accomplishments by these skaters? I for one am THRILLED that Sasha won and without ANY question. Why can't we focus on that instead of continually cutting her competitors down? :(

Schmeck

10-22-2003, 07:12 PM

miranda, who else would you have put on the podium at this event?

AP landed 5 triples, but didn't land a 3t, didn't have a combo, and deserved a deduction for repeating a second jump without a combo (was it a lutz or a flip?)

JK landed 5 triples, two in combinations, but fell hard, twice

ES - the only triple she landed was two-footed, the highet jump she cleanly landed was the 2a.

MK only landed 4 clean triples, one in combination, but didn't fall.

Remember, more than half the skaters will be on the podium when only 5 ladies compete

So, who would you pick, and why?

Schmeck, who has been studying for an exam, essay style, and can't seem to get out of the essay format :lol:

miranda

10-22-2003, 11:03 PM

Yes, i think Michelle was rightfully in 3rd place in SLC but her fans kept insisting because of her SP that she should have won gold. It never stops. Last year I thought Cupcake should have won Nationals. I also agree we should be celebrating Sasha's win. My hopes and prayers are for her all the way through this season.

Schmeck

10-23-2003, 05:15 AM

But miranda, you didn't answer my essay question, or else I'm very confused - did Michelle not land her two lutzes at SLC? Gee, I thought she fell on her flip jump...

So, back to Capbell's - if anyone thinks Michelle shouldn't have been on the podium at Campbell's who would you place in 2nd and 3rd, and why?

PS - who are you refering to as Cupcake (didn't we used to call Elena S that nickname) and why should she have won Nationals (which Nationals?)

Schmeck

MQSeries

10-23-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by MQSeries
The major concern I have with Kwan's program at Campbell is that it's practically identical to the program last year, and it doesn't even look like it relates to the music at all.

Ok, I take my criticisms of MK's Tosca back. I carefully rewatched the program twice now and like it. She seemed faster and the triples, aside from the ltz, looked as solid as ever. It isn't the exact same program as last year, but I would still like a little more variations in term of choreography so that people, myself included, don't immediately jump to the "same old, same old" complaints. If Michelle can crank up her performance level again at Nationals, watch out ... :)

Schmeck

10-23-2003, 03:00 PM

MQSeries, I agree, Michelle's program does need more variation, a different feel, something that raises the bar again. I remember her first Worlds victory, how she made skating as a character (Salome) all the rage, how having a story behind the skating added a texture and depth to a program that I don't remember seeing before. Of course skaters used their costumes to get a certain character across, but Michelle became the character, IMO.

Now her skating has a feel of sameness, although she does alter the mood a bit. But it needs more flavor and texture!

Hmm, I must be hungry, because some of my descriptive words seem to be food related, LOL!

miranda

10-23-2003, 04:41 PM

Schm- I clicked the wrong button and ended up starting a new thread called "sorry" lol. I ment last years Worlds and yes i still think Elena should have won it. I don't know what has happened to her this year. The whole point about SLC is it doesn't matter to me what jump MK fell on, her fans would still say she was robbed , and they did. Unbelievable. I just want to concentrate on Sasha from here on out, although I am curious to see the Japanese at Worlds. I hope Sasha goes all the way.

quarkiki2

10-24-2003, 09:22 AM

Miranda -- I think most of us understood what you meant in regard to your post about Elena, though I think what Schmeck was asking about and I know what I was asking about is the placements for this year's Campbell's since this seems to be the only competition where Michelle didn't have a lutz.

So: Which two people do you think should have placed above Michelle at Campbell's to have her place off the podium?

And how does the "no lutz = no podium" affect other skaters? Say Sasha has just about the skate of her life with only one error -- a two footed lutz -- doe she end up off the podium then? Does this negate Naomi Nari Nam's exciting silver medal at 99 nationals (she didn't even try a lutz)? And we're still not addressing the skaters who fultz to such a degree that they've never done a lutz in their programs...

loveskating

10-24-2003, 11:29 AM

This is getting too abstract.

I understand what you are saying overall, Miranda ...that winning skaters tend to be held up sometimes...IMHO that goes for MK and for Irina and Yagudin even! For instance, I thought Abt beat him once, but the judges held Yags up (nothing against Yags, I LOVE him).

I really hate that, no matter who the skater is.

miranda

10-24-2003, 03:57 PM

The only answer I can give to placements at Campbells or any other event this year is , If I were Queen of the U.S.(lol) I wouldn't let half these skaters near the arena and certainly not call them "elite". I would make them pass a twice a year technical test to make sure we were actually competeing on an international level. They would have to do this every year before they could go to Nats and Worlds. If they could not show they were even capable of the harder jumps, they would not quailify. If that ment some years, Nationals had to be cancelled or we only sent one skater to Worlds, then so be it. I realize I am only fantazing but That's what I would make happen in a perfect skating world. I am well aware that skating is alot more than jumps so please don't drag that old chestnut into this. The fact is, we are not competing very well (with an exception for Sasha). Even Tim seems to be having some kind of melt down. Just my thoughts.