A Moment With Moskvina

[GSK8]

Renowned Russian Coach, Tamara Moskvina, shares a few thoughts and moments about her past and the present. For those interested, here is [b:0d94b186b0]more[/b:0d94b186b0] (goldenskate.com/articles/2001/062202.shtml).

[Scott]

I love this coach and was disappointed to see her return to St. Petersburg. With her moving and I presume her husband now following does anyone know who will be coaching Ina & Zimmerman?

[loveskating]

Great interview...seems to include stuff from the previous interview as well.

I was pleased to hear what was behind that tear in her eye at SLC during the second gold ceremony ...glad she was thinking of all the great pairs skaters she has coached because I just love her and I was not happy to see that tear!

I think the thing that most devastated me about the commentary at SLC was the impression that was clearly given to the American public that the Russians had dominated pairs skating for 20 years because of "bloc judging" when in fact, they did so because of people like her...and the Protopopovs, Rodnina/Zeitzev, etc.; Gordeeva & Grinkov, Betchke/Petrov; Mishketunok/Kazakova & Demietriev.

Also, I found Hamilton's comment that Russian pairs skaters are like "cookie cutters", that they all look alike, to be offensive in the extreme. How ANYONE could think that is as incomprehensible as anyone thinking all tenors sound alike.

[Schmeck]

While I must admit that she is a successful pairs coach, I find her media personality obnoxious. And for someone who is making quite a lot of "North American" money, she isn't very gracious towards the source of all that money, is she?

And I don't believe that bit about the tears at all either :P

Schmeck

[Blue Ridge]

I don't see where she is not "gracious" towards North America, unless you consider the media to be the whole of North America. I don't find her obnoxious at all in this interview, unless it is obnoxious to acknowledge that you have coached some of the greatest pairs of all time.

[hoptoad]

What a talented woman! She's in her sixties and she can (only!) do a single axle!

[HotIce]

She did a lovely death spiral with Anton at her 60th birthday gala.

[Amy L]

She and Anton also did a press lift at that gala....

[loveskating]

IMHO, Moskvina has and will enhance the reputation and economics of any rink etc. in the United States or anywhere in the world. She is a legend in figure skating. I love what she has brought to Ina and Zimmerman!

Additionally, I'd contend that there is no such thing anymore as "North American Money", that what now exists is a vast global economy, run by multinational corporations, where North America is the dominant player and 'engine' pushing and defining everything else...but we are every bit as dependent on "them" as they are on "us". Reciprocal relationships are [color=red:312ab7753f]mutually interdependent. [/color:312ab7753f] That is precisely why we had to bail out the Mexicans with a $40 Billion loan when Clinton was President...one hole in the wall and the whole thing goes down, us included.

[Blue Ridge]

well said, loveskating.

[Schmeck]

Here's a quote from the article:

Tamara: I don't have any bad feeling at all. This is part of the sport, part of fight for the victory. Our clean victory was shaded by other side who also wanted to get Gold! They used the advantages of being North Americans and the power of North American media & TV. I do not feel less motivation because of what happened


According to the ISU, it was not a clean victory at all. Moskvina states that the Canadians used the media to win - she sounds like a poor sport, and full of bad feelings to me. That would most likely make her a liar, too...

And if the skating world is part of the global economy, then why are so many Russians (and other international skaters) training full time in the US? And doing US skating shows? I bet they get paid in US dollars, not Russian currency...

Schmeck

[Blue Ridge]

The U.S. has a rather more successful economy than Russia. 70 years of totalitarianism left Russia a bit behind economically. Does the fact that they make money here in North America mean that they should defer in their opinions on skating controversies to the opinions of their North American competitors?

Some North Americans agree with Moskvina that B&S had a clean victory and that the power of the North American media was a major factor in the awarding of the second gold. I don't think it is news to anyone that the controversy was very controversial.

[HotIce]

[quote:a1f0eb04e2="Schmeck"]Here's a quote from the article:

Tamara: I don't have any bad feeling at all. This is part of the sport, part of fight for the victory. Our clean victory was shaded by other side who also wanted to get Gold! They used the advantages of being North Americans and the power of North American media & TV. I do not feel less motivation because of what happened


According to the ISU, it was not a clean victory at all. Moskvina states that the Canadians used the media to win - she sounds like a poor sport, and full of bad feelings to me. That would most likely make her a liar, too...

And if the skating world is part of the global economy, then why are so many Russians (and other international skaters) training full time in the US? And doing US skating shows? I bet they get paid in US dollars, not Russian currency...

Schmeck[/quote:a1f0eb04e2]

I don't think she sounded like a poor sport at all. I agree with her.
The North American media got S&P that second medal.
If they had been from Europe, they would not have gotten it.
Tamara is known for speaking her mind and telling the truth as she sees it.
I admire her very much.
And what is wrong with skaters from other countries skating in US shows and making money? We want to see them, don't we?

[loveskating]

[quote:fecd95e525="Schmeck"]And if the skating world is part of the global economy, then why are so many Russians (and other international skaters) training full time in the US? And doing US skating shows? I bet they get paid in US dollars, not Russian currency... Schmeck[/quote:fecd95e525]

I rather think the problem for figure skating is its not enough of a willing and conscious part of the global economy that now surrounds it...it seems to be locked into the gone and good riddance Cold War paradigm instead...

I don't know, but I'd bet a nickle Moskvina et al. have given far more to the Hackensack rink and the NYC skating community than they have gotten from it, including in dollars and cents.

And I agree with Hotice that we want to see them skate...I certainly do...Yelena and Anton, Takeshi Honda, Alexander Abt, Plushenko, Yags, Fumie and so many more skaters I could list of such great mastery from other countries. I love em all and I wish people from ALL countries could see the worlds best skaters skate live...and I feel very, very fortunate to have seen most of them live.

[adrianchew]

[quote:752d44fade="Blue Ridge"]Some North Americans agree with Moskvina that B&S had a clean victory and that the power of the North American media was a major factor in the awarding of the second gold. I don't think it is news to anyone that the controversy was very controversial.[/quote:752d44fade]

Till this day - everyone forgets that the second medals are awarded not on the basis of merit or otherwise, but that a judge in the event has admitted to collusion (and many versions of a story thereafter).

There wasn't, and still isn't - any ISU rules on how to handle this sort of a situation. The IOC has a past precedent of issuing double gold in the past, and this was used to resolve the issue of collusion having happened.

Its too bad this had to happen - but what happens and is done to fix it (collusion in judging, vote trading, etc) - that matters more. That, remains under discussion and still have my doubts if we've seen the last of this sort of behavior.

[loveskating]

With much respect, let me explain what some of us who agree more or less or to some extent with Moskvina's statment cannot forget:

The judge who "admitted" to being pressured claims she was put under duress to do so and is taking her case to authorities outside the ISU...and the people who originally claim she told them she was put under pressure are Lavoie and Stapleford, who had a clear record of open partisanship on behalf of S&P...and someone told Christine Brennan, whose article was published the next morning, and I don't think it was the French Judge who spoke to Ms. Brennan!!; this article enabled the media blitz, along with the commentary of Hamilton/Bezic, which was unprecedented both during the program and afterwards and it was only after this that an arbitration was sought [color=red:9cf64307dd]additionally, and fundamentally, those skates were very close and no cheating was required by anyone for it to go either way...nor did Anissina & Piezerat need any collusion to win in ice dance, either[/color:9cf64307dd]. Meantime, the entire U.S. media as a whole put the issue as #1 for a whole week, which had not occurred since the Kerrigan/Harding affair...constantly showing a bad runout on a 2 axel, which we all know is a very minor matter.

In the Harding/Kerrigan affair, the broader media did not take sides on the skating issues, did not claim to be able to judge skating issues -- they merely reported on the crime.

Personally, for me, the involvement of the entire U.S. media is a very significant thing, because the American media does not normally meddle into the outcomes of sporting events, nor does the non-sports media usually EVEN comment on ANY sports matter...as we all know, sports is a wholly separate segement on all newscasts. More fundamentally than that, in a democracy, sporting events are not seen as political, art is not seen as political -- they are meaningful, yes, and do "say something", but not as part of the legitimate political sphere. They have in the past been seen as more in service of a broad human spiritual need, not a day to day and thus narrowly defined political need.

[LTM]

I don't see the Harding/Kerrigan incident in anyway as similar. That was
a physical attack, covered under America's criminal code. Now Bauils win over Kerrigan at the Lillihammer Olympics is a better example,
if I remember correctly, a five/four split that is debated to this day.
There was also some howling in the media about Bauils' win in the media
( seem to remember on some tv event, the two performances being
shown with emphasis on Bauil's mistakes) But no judge that I can recall
complained about being pressured. So it remains an event debated ad
nauseum on skating websites but that's about it.
Here, a judge complained about being pressured. There is no evidence
at this time, of some sort of conspiracy between Brennan, Stapleford
and I don't who to "pin" something the French judge. The conspiracy types can look all they want, at this point there isn't any.
There is anyother explaination as to why the media jumped so fast.
If there had been rumours circulating that there was a "fix" planned
and reporters had heard about them. After Footsiegate and all the
stuff at the Nagano dance event, they were ready and waiting. And then
MLG openned her mouth and that was it.
And what the heck was the ISU to do? Ignore the mess and drill a whole
in it's coffin. Rejudge the event (as I believe was suggested) and create
a whole new set of problems if B & S got bumped down to silver
(I'd like to remind people that 4 judges put S & P first so it was not out
the realm of possibility that the medal positions could have been switched)
I know people are hoping there will be some kind of vindication for MLG
in an outside jurisdiction but it does not help her that her alledged co-
conspirator DL is not appealing his suspension.
While Moskvina's comments are understandable (they really are)
to pin all the problems on the media is short sighted and not doing
figure skating any good at all.
Frankly it just comes across as somewho is used to a particular system
and just doesn't want it to change.

[Blue Ridge]

[quote:7394fe8c80="LTM"] ...snip...There is no evidence
at this time, of some sort of conspiracy between Brennan, Stapleford
and I don't who to "pin" something the French judge. The conspiracy types can look all they want, at this point there isn't any.
There is anyother explaination as to why the media jumped so fast.
If there had been rumours circulating that there was a "fix" planned
and reporters had heard about them. After Footsiegate and all the
stuff at the Nagano dance event, they were ready and waiting. And then
MLG openned her mouth and that was it....snip...
[/quote:7394fe8c80]

"The conspiracy types" abounded in the U.S. media at the time of the controversy. We heard and still hear over and over of a "deal" to give the pairs gold to the Russians in exchange for the Dance gold to the French. "There is no evidence" of this and none has been presented. If so-called journalists heard about a "fix"--rather than jumping on an outcome so close that partisans could claim it wasn't fair which ever way it went and presenting that as somehow showing corrupt judging--they should have investigated and found whether there was evidence or not.

"What was the ISU to do?" It was the IOC that demanded that something be done immediately and pressured the ISU to act without any investigation. Thus the awarding of the 2nd golds. Neither the media, nor the ISU, nor anyone else has ever adequately investigated the rumors and allegations.

As for the obsession of the U.S. media with the controversy, when the NY Times ran a top of the page editorial decrying the gold medal victory of B&S, that said it all for me. That was no different than the vote of the Russian Duma to condemn the awarding of the 2nd gold. Politics pure and simple.

[loveskating]

I think it does help the French Judge that the head of the federation is not appealing...legally speaking. The issue in disupte is narrow, i.e., was the French judge put under duress at the ISU meeting, did she sign the affidavit there under valid legal definitions of duress.

If she wins, he wins.

[Gaela]

Come on people--unless the media made up the story about Le Gougne, or framed her, it DID NOT award the second gold medal. Yes, the media was biased towards S&P--likewise you can be sure the media in Russian would have biased towards B&S. But this does not give the media the power to AWARD the medal.

The decision to award the second gold medal was made by Speedy, who did not want to let an independent sports tribunal to hear the case, which Rogge had threatened him with if he didn't get to the facts.

I believe there was collusion and that there were rumors, I don't know what part the 'western bloc' played in it but I am more likely to believe that Skate Canada/Le Gougne conspired to get the Gold medal than to just blame it on the media. Le Gougne was clearly the scapegoat judge.

Considering the rules, the competition could have gone either way. It bothers me somewhat that Moskvina just blames it on the media and doesn't acknowledge that S&P could have one fair and square. But likewise some westerners don't acknowledge that. However it doesn't make me admire Moskvina any less--she's a tough and talented lady. I think the Russians take pride in their fine schools and training, as they should. I like to see more humility in people, but humility does not a gold medal win.

[loveskating]

[quote:218d0e72e9="Gaela"]Come on people--unless the media made up the story about Le Gougne, or framed her, it DID NOT award the second gold medal. Yes, the media was biased towards S&P--likewise you can be sure the media in Russian would have biased towards B&S. But this does not give the media the power to AWARD the medal. [/quote:218d0e72e9]

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that the media awarded anything. The role of ANY media is to create and reflect public opinion...others legislate or act in some fashion...but in history, these often work in tandem (the Hurst papers and the Spanish American war, for instance).

IMHO, the media created a situation in which the public in America believed that S&P not only won, but had a "slam dunk" and that there therefore HAD to be corruption JUST based on the outcome. I never thought either pair had a slam dunk vs. one another...it was very, very close, IMHO, nor did I think that A&P needed any deal to win in ice dance!

It is Le Gougne who is saying that she was set up...and I do think it is reasonable to entertain that possibility.

For one thing, Le Gougne did not waltz into that ISU meeting and sign that affidavit...it took over 4 hours for her to sign it, a fact which is not disputed that I know of, and this time frame alone lends a lot of crediblity to her claim she was put under extreme duress. If she had complained of having been pressured to Lavoie and Stapleford, as they claimed originally, then she certainly would have rather instantly signed that affidavit...and likely would have had an attorney present (I've been wrestling with her not having an attorney present, and this is what I came up with as a possiblity). The time frame and no attorney present also lends credibilty to the notion she did not have the slightest idea what would occur viz herself at that meeting. Surely, if she had understood even slightly what was to occur, that her reputation and career would be ruined, she would, at a minimum, have had an attorney there with her.

If Le Gougne had voluntarily complained to Lavoie and Stapleford, as originally claimed, in a fit of guilt, then she would have been consulted in the preparation of her affidavit...and no one has suggested that she was.

As for Cinquanta, there were only 3 choices after the IOC required an immediate hearing (due to public opinion in the US)....(1) take the gold from B&S and give it to S&P; (2) tell the American public that B&S won and to shut up; (3) Issue 2 gold medals.

[Gaela]

You have made some good points. I don't agree, however, that
"The role of ANY media is to create and reflect public opinion" Media does this, but as a trained journalist back in the 80s when teachers were complaining that investigative journalism was losing quality..I was taught that the role of the media is to objectively report the facts and investigate behind the scenes."

I do agree somewhat that :
"the media created a situation in which the public in America believed that S&P not only won, but had a "slam dunk" and that there therefore HAD to be corruption JUST based on the outcome."
However, they didn't express the incidence of corruption until after the Le Gougne incident; they could well have heard rumors.

I DID think at the time that it was almost a slam dunk because I considered both teams so equal that should one go clean and the other not, the clean team would win. However the person I was watching with disagreed, and I understand the case for giving the win to B&S. Had the Le Gougne incident never happened, the Olympics would have gone on and S&P would have just gone home with silver. Not a great tragedy.

You said "nor did I think that A&P needed any deal to win in ice dance". Nor did I have, but A&P have petitioned to get a certain judge in the past to better their chances. Deals in ice dance are the rule rather than the exception IMO. I don't think wins in dance come from ability alone. . .think of 2001 Worlds.

I agree with you that Le Gougne may have been set up. Your points that "it took over 4 hours for her to sign it" and had no attorney present are good ones.

Cinquanta did have one more choice: let an Indepedent Sports Tribunal do the hearing. He clearly didn't want to do that.

My theory is foul play on both sides, and Le Gougne took the rap. I suspect that Stapleford and Benoit may have done there part. It wasn't the eville North American media or the eville Russians. It was figure skating politics disasterously out of control.

Big question is: will we ever find out what happened?

[gandalf]

Will we ever find out what happened ? Of course not.

Le Gougne would have been alot better off if she hadn't changed her story so many times - makes it hard to take anything she said seriously.

Moskvina is a wonderful coach whose history of success in pairs is virtually unmatched. But to hint, or flat out state, that B&S were the undisputed champions in SLC and S&P's medal was due entirely to the North American media is both unfair and smacks of sour grapes. I'm sure she wouldn't like a list of all the medals that B&S won that I (and many others) think were undeserved.

[loveskating]

Gaela, thank you for saying:

"However the person I was watching with disagreed, and I understand the case for giving the win to B&S. Had the Le Gougne incident never happened, the Olympics would have gone on and S&P would have just gone home with silver. Not a great tragedy."

Oh truly, not a great tragedy for [b:50f5ec06e8]either[/b:50f5ec06e8] pair. The tragedy, to me, is that while the gold medal is less and less important as a "money maker" the quest for it has somehow gotten, well, very low down and even absurd!

For the LIFE of me, I cannot grasp why being second or third or fourth is such a big old horrible deal....