Nussear/Forsythe [Archive] - skatingforums.com

what?meworry?

10-04-2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by IgglesII
Nobody said anything bad about her, Nursegal...
These two did announce their return with a fairly big splash, so it's only natural that people might wonder what happened if it's suddenly off again.

i'm among the curious. i've seen forsythe develop over the years. i enjoyed the first incarnation of nussear/forsythe, but wondered if there might be too great a height difference then. i was disappointed when neusear left the team to return to her former rink.

with this reincarnation of the team i assumed the height thing was not an issue and was looking forward to seeing the team again. i sincerely hope this is not a replay.

meanwhile, i see no reason why people shouldn't be very curious about this absence, for several reasons, one of which trillian mentioned a while back---that the thought was that nussear's family had returned to florida (?), and additionally, because of what iggles2 notes above---they made a really big splash about getting back together.

third person info often isn't completely accurate, but still tends to have at least some truth to it. however, there have been no reports of nussear returning to detroit, so why not ask?

i also don't read reporting a "nussear sighting" as picking on her. (???) in fact, the kind of strong reaction nursegal had makes me even more curious about what is really going on.

Jess-ka

10-04-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by SouthernSk8rMom
Today, at the Simsbury rink, I heard that Emelie is working at the Nordstrom's in Farmington, CT, and is attending the University of Hartford. The person who told me this said she heard it from Emelie herself. no offence but is there something wrong with you or do you just like to blow things out of proportion??

what?meworry?

10-04-2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Jess-ka
no offence but is there something wrong with you or do you just like to blow things out of proportion??

i believe we are reading the same words?
again, i don't see how reporting, in very direct in forthright language as you quoted, that nussear is working and attending school there is "blowing things out of proportion."

in fact i would say now jess-ka's and previously nursegal's strong reactions are making things seem curiouser and curiouser regarding nussear's absence from detroit.

do you two know something we don't know?

Jess-ka

10-04-2003, 08:40 PM

no i was asking her if she had problems b/c she is being overly dramatic about it, but i am curious about Nussear and Forsythe.

what?meworry?

10-04-2003, 08:53 PM

drama, drama? we ain't got no stinkin' drama here!
honestly, i don't see any relationship between what southernsk8rmom said and your characterization of a simple straightforward report as "overly dramatic."

as i've said before, what's up? why are two posters so uptight about someone reporting a simple comment about what nussear is doing!

Jess-ka

10-04-2003, 09:06 PM

no no no, i am not being up tight about what you guys are saying as i have already stated, i am curious too....my thing is nursegal or w/e her name is...she is getting all aover dramatic about what everyone is saying and that was annoying me but i guess now i am being overly dramatic about what she is saying so i apologize to anyone i may have annoyed.as for the whole Nussear and Forsythe thing i have no clue what is goign on with them but i would like to know also.

what?meworry?

10-04-2003, 09:16 PM

ok.

by the way, that "stinkin'" phrase is a parody on a quote from an old western "treasure of the sierra madre'" eli wallach was the actor, i think. the quote was "...badges, badges, we don't need no stinkin badges here..." in reply to humphry bogart's character.

IceDanceSk8er

10-04-2003, 11:02 PM

what?meworry?

10-04-2003, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
Sadly, this is true

sooooo...
why is it "sadly" so. i would guess from your phraseology that something's up and you may have a good idea what.

it is the same deal as before? a leaving to go to something?

or is it a fleeing from something?

you choice of phrasing seems to imply greater knowledge of what's what.

please share.

icedancer2

10-04-2003, 11:58 PM

Is it "sad" to be working at Nordstrom and going to college?

I have known tons of top-level ice-dancers that had day jobs and went to school...

what?meworry?

10-05-2003, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by icedancer2
Is it "sad" to be working at Nordstrom and going to college?

I have known tons of top-level ice-dancers that had day jobs and went to school...

she's probably working at nordstroms for the discount on the clothes! i've heard of competitive skaters who were going to school, teaching skating classes and training! and, because they could get discounts, hold a job for a minimun number of hours at a clothing store for the discount. clearly, nussear could make more money teaching skating.

you're right, of and by itself, working and going to school is not "sad" at all, it's industrious!

however, i think icedancesk8er was referring more to the question of why nussear is not training with forsythe in detroit now. and perhaps the question and possible answer is the "sad" part.

what is truely "sad" here is that brandon, yet again, is sitting around, not training. i don't know if it is a series of bad choices on his part or just plain bad luck, but i remember him a long time ago as a promising young skater. i expected to see him successfully competing in the upper level seniors with some talented, well-matched and long-term partner by now.

MyTripleFlutz

10-05-2003, 10:04 AM

Whenever I see partnerships with the potential to be great fizzle out, I always look for what, or more importantly "who" is the common denominator.

Nusseur/Forsythe didn't have a grea showing at Placid, but they could have improved. It's too bad they were so quick to throw in the towel.

Polish

10-05-2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by icedancer2
Is it "sad" to be working at Nordstrom and going to college?

I have known tons of top-level ice-dancers that had day jobs and went to school...

It is "sad" if Bob Young is back in the picture.

Jess-ka

10-05-2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
she's probably working at nordstroms for the discount on the clothes! i've heard of competitive skaters who were going to school, teaching skating classes and training! and, because they could get discounts, hold a job for a minimun number of hours at a clothing store for the discount. clearly, nussear could make more money teaching skating.
uhm yeah i have four jobs, one of them is working at a clothing store but i do not do it for the discounts,i also teach lessons but it is hard b/c i can't book lots of students b/c i too need to skate. skating is expensive, weither you are an elite skater or on your way to hopefully becoming one.

Trillian

10-05-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Polish
It is "sad" if Bob Young is back in the picture.

Well, I wouldn't personally assume he is. A few years ago, sure; now it seems less likely. There are a lot of other people in Connecticut--Emilie did live there for a good portion of her life, after all.

I also wouldn't assume the team has given up on competing entirely, but if she's in Connecticut NOW, I'd be less likely to expect them to compete this season. If they've been off the ice since August, it doesn't give them much time to prepare for sectionals.

WeBeEducated

10-05-2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by MyTripleFlutz
Whenever I see partnerships with the potential to be great fizzle out, I always look for what, or more importantly "who" is the common denominator.

Nusseur/Forsythe didn't have a grea showing at Placid, but they could have improved. It's too bad they were so quick to throw in the towel.

In fact, they were 1st in the OD, and 2nd in the freedance! I would call that a great beginning for a new team.

Smiley0084

10-05-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by IceDanceSk8er
Sadly, this is true

I've heard this as well, but I supposed it's "sad" that we won't see her skate with Brandon, but if this is what she wants for herself, good luck to her and I wish her all the best :)

If all this is true Emilie and Brandon will make a statement soon enough, I understand they have a lot of curious fans, but patience never hurt anyone.

what?meworry?

10-05-2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Trillian
...I also wouldn't assume the team has given up on competing entirely, but if she's in Connecticut NOW, I'd be less likely to expect them to compete this season. If they've been off the ice since August, it doesn't give them much time to prepare for sectionals.

regarding sectionals---if there are fewer than four teams signed up, would they have to compete sectionals?

but i think, given that senior is quite competitive after, well, b/a solidly at the top, then a huge gap, then gibbons/pekarek, galler-rabinowitz/mitchell, moxley/kirsanov, and gregory/petukov all basically vying for silver, that it is unfortunately very unlikely we'll see nussear/forsythe this season. and that doesn't bode well for the future of the team at all.

Smiley0084

10-05-2003, 10:55 PM

There actually isn't a huge gap between G/P and B/A anymore, still B/A have a definte have the edge. But if everything goes well, I would say Melissa and Denis are almost a lock for sliver, don't want to jinx them though! I haven't seen GR/M yet so that's why I say almost, they could have made huge improvements as well. :)

what?meworry?

10-05-2003, 11:28 PM

as you wish.

the nice thing about this "gap" speculation is that we shall all "see" for ourselves soon enough:

GP Smart Ones Skate America
Reading, Pa.
OCT 22-26, 2003

Belbin/Agosto
Gregory/Petukhov
Moxley/Kirsanov

but this is an active thread about brandon and emilie, not gregory and pet. - they have their own thread a bit further down from this one.

i had hoped to see nussear/forsythe vying for an olympic spot down the road along with g-r/m, gibbons/pekarek, too. (would kirsanov have a shot at citizenship in time? has he even set the process in motion?)
so the news of emilie still in ct is disappointing, since i was hoping for some indication that the team might resume training soon.

DancerFan

10-06-2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
...the nice thing about this "gap" speculation is that we shall all "see" for ourselves soon enough:

GP Smart Ones Skate America

Belbin/Agosto
Gregory/Petukhov
Moxley/Kirsanov

Actually, anyone who travels to Harvard University this weekend will be able to see B/A, Gre/Pet and GR/M back to back! (M/K won't be there, but the others will!) I'm really looking forward to seeing this 'mish-mash' WSS freedance that everyone is talking not-so-favorably about, and how it compares to the others!

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~ewc/skaters.htm

As for N/F, I don't think we will ever see them, unfortunately. It's really sad that yet another talented team is out of the US dance scene.

Smiley0084

10-06-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
as you wish.

the nice thing about this "gap" speculation is that we shall all "see" for ourselves soon enough:

GP Smart Ones Skate America
Reading, Pa.
OCT 22-26, 2003

Belbin/Agosto
Gregory/Petukhov
Moxley/Kirsanov

but this is an active thread about brandon and emilie, not gregory and pet. - they have their own thread a bit further down from this one.

i had hoped to see nussear/forsythe vying for an olympic spot down the road along with g-r/m, gibbons/pekarek, too. (would kirsanov have a shot at citizenship in time? has he even set the process in motion?)
so the news of emilie still in ct is disappointing, since i was hoping for some indication that the team might resume training soon.

:?: You're the one who brought it up. I was just giving my opinion, not "speculating" If you don't happen to agree, not my problem. I'll wait for the moderators to tell me if my post was out of place. Like I said before, I was just responding to a comment that you made. As much as I love N/F(and Gib/Pek) even if they skated this year they are no threat to G/P.

what?meworry?

10-06-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by DancerFan
Actually, anyone who travels to Harvard University this weekend will be able to see B/A, Gre/Pet and GR/M back to back! (M/K won't be there, but the others will!) I'm really looking forward to seeing this 'mish-mash' WSS freedance that everyone is talking not-so-favorably about, and how it compares to the others!

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~ewc/skaters.htm

i wish i could see that! both b/s chopped up wss fd and that trio of competitors.

icedancesk8er, you're in boston and you seem to be a reliable source of relatively unbiased/unprejudiced info. if you are able to attend, please share your impressions about the relative skating preformances of the dancers. (i admit, there are some posters here whose opinion about their relative skating merits i wouldn't give much credibility.)

i'm also afraid you're right about n/f. i just hope brandon isn't totally discouraged and takes the time to find another, stable, well-matched partner.

IceDanceSk8er

10-06-2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
...icedancesk8er, you're in boston and you seem to be a reliable source of relatively unbiased/unprejudiced info. if you are able to attend, please share your impressions about the relative skating preformances of the dancers. (i admit, there are some posters here whose opinion about their relative skating merits i wouldn't give much credibility.)

i'm also afraid you're right about n/f. i just hope brandon isn't totally discouraged and takes the time to find another, stable, well-matched partner.

what?meworry? will do. It should be a good show. I often see G-R/M skate at the Skating Club of Boston and they look very strong. I am very curious to see how G/P skate. This is their first full year training in Newington with Nikolai.

I feel disappointed for Brandon. I think he felt that this was going to be a good year for him and Emilie. They looked very good in Placid. It's very unfortunate they didn't get a chance to compete their international.

For what it's worth, my predictions for this year's senior dance:

1. Belbin & Agosto
2. Galler-Rabinowitz & Mitchell
3. Gregory & Petukhov
4. Gibbons & Pekarek

I think the 5, 6, 7 and 8 places are up for grabs

5. Moxley & Kirsanov
6. Goodwin & Bommentre
7. Manon & O'Meara
8. Navarro & Shmalo

WeBeEducated

10-06-2003, 04:58 PM

It is interesting to me that a girl who has only skated dance for 2 years is capable of being considered at the very top of the National Championship level!
I have seen Hilary skate with Justin. She is certainly a beautiful young lady, and is competent,obviously hardworking... but a world class ice dancer? Not in my opinion.
If it is that easy in fact, to go from no dance experience to the very top of US Nationals in 2 years, then lots of skaters should give it a go!
However,
I hope Navarro/Shmalo are given the credit they deserve this year, and are recognized for their well skated, innovative freedance.
I think it will be
B/A
G/P
G-R/M
N/S

IceDanceSk8er

10-06-2003, 05:37 PM

When was the last time you saw Hilary skate? She has worked her butt off the last two seasons. Of course she's not world class - yet. I see Hilary and Justin skate regularly here in Boston. I stand by my predictions, Kim and Rob are wonderful people, but I think they'll finish in the middle of the pack and behind Hilary and Justin.

World class ice dancer? Where did that comment come from? How many world class ice dancers do you think we have?

IgglesII

10-06-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Smiley0084
There actually isn't a huge gap between G/P and B/A anymore, still B/A have a definte have the edge.

No huge gap at all - except for those pesky international medals that B/A have, which in ice dance count for quite a bit in the eyes of the judges.

IgglesII

10-06-2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Polish
It is "sad" if Bob Young is back in the picture.

Wow - actually more offended reading that post than seeing a Red Sox reliever flip off the fans during pre-game introductions this past weekend.

Not offended by you, Polish - offended by the idea that that thought is crossing the minds of multiple people.

Nordstrom's at the WestFarms mall - seem to recall buying jeans there once.

what?meworry?

10-06-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
It is interesting to me that a girl who has only skated dance for 2 years is capable of being considered at the very top of the National Championship level!
I have seen Hilary skate with Justin. She is certainly a beautiful young lady, and is competent,obviously hardworking... but a world class ice dancer? Not in my opinion.
If it is that easy in fact, to go from no dance experience to the very top of US Nationals in 2 years, then lots of skaters should give it a go!

not exactly parallel, but emilie nussear and tanith belbin came from pairs and made an immediate splash in dance at the junior level. in fact, strong fs skaters with real talent can transition very quickly and successfully into dance particularly with very talented partners.

i think that's why some feel hillary, with justin---don't forget who she's skating with---plus training with tom and barrett, might come close or overtake gregory/pet. even this season.

after all, not many people ever thought melissa had enough natural talent to get this far, but detremination, a really talented partner/husband (who will be a citizen in time) and timing (l/t appear to be history) could propel her into contention for an olympic spot in 2006! but melissa's has been a long hard climb---emilie, tanith and it appears, now hillary are accellerating fairly rapidly.

although hillary's debut was tenetative---she looked extremely nervous---and i was quite skeptical at the time---the results in lp fd coupled with reports i read about them from lp indicate she is advancing rapidly in both dance and confidence. if she continues to accelerate in skill and confidence, hillary/justin giving g/pet. real competition for the silver, is possible.

i think i'd make the same bet as icedancesk8er as to placements for nat'ls this year, adding that it will be a great competition for the silver that includes moxley/kirsanov.

SkateGuard

10-07-2003, 10:08 PM

So where is Brandon? Detroit? It's really too bad that for whatever reason, N/F may have split again.

Originally posted by what?meworry?
i think that's why some feel hillary, with justin---don't forget who she's skating with---plus training with tom and barrett, might come close or overtake gregory/pet. even this season.

although hillary's debut was tenetative---she looked extremely nervous---and i was quite skeptical at the time---the results in lp fd coupled with reports i read about them from lp indicate she is advancing rapidly in both dance and confidence. if she continues to accelerate in skill and confidence, hillary/justin giving g/pet. real competition for the silver, is possible.

And don't forget that Hilary is a strong _figure_ skater (as in, left-start paragraph three). I started doing patch this summer, and the edge control that it takes to even do the simplest figure is incredible!

Erin
(who is hoping that Brandon will find the "perfect" partner real soon!)

BittyBug

10-08-2003, 08:36 AM

I think that Hilary's greatest challenge will be confidence. There's no question that she can skate, but the beating that she's taking from elitists who seem to think that one can only succeed in dance if he/she has been dancing as long as walking must be difficult. This woman passed all of her dance tests in a single year - I think that incredible accomplishment speaks for itself. Whatever the placements, I think that we will have a very exciting competition in Senior Dance this year.

Skatewind

10-08-2003, 10:46 AM

:) I'm happy to see Hilary & Justin doing well this year. WeBeEducated if you have some skaters you can turn into dancers in a couple years like Hilary, bring them on. I'll be happy to see them too, since at this point almost any approach that works can only help US dance. Justin & Hilary have at least stayed together dancing for 2 years now, compared to some of the quick partnerships & break ups.

WeBeEducated

10-08-2003, 02:22 PM

I would LOVE for more singles skaters to skate icedance! No problem with that at all. I think they have more skills and a greater range of ability that would add depth to their freedances, compared to skaters who have only learned to skate via compulsory dances.
However, within 2 years of learning the Dutch Waltz I doubt if ANY of them would be ready to win a Championship medal at the Senior level, no matter how hard working and motivated they might be. I cant imagine ANY of them ready to represent the USA at Worlds after icedancing for 2 years. Any coach will tell young icedancers that it takes YEARS to achieve the look and finesse of a high level icedancer.
Fair judging should not include awarding points based on a partners previous success with another partner.

Skatewind

10-08-2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Fair judging should not include awarding points based on a partners previous success with another partner.
Please do be sure to share the details about how this is actually happening when it comes to Justin & Hilary. Which judges? Which competition? Which event?

what?meworry?

10-08-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by BittyBug
I think that Hilary's greatest challenge will be confidence. There's no question that she can skate, but the beating that she's taking from elitists who seem to think that one can only succeed in dance if he/she has been dancing as long as walking must be difficult. This woman passed all of her dance tests in a single year - I think that incredible accomplishment speaks for itself...

you only get a "beating" if you're paying attention to what others say. if you believe you can do it you ignore them. if you're insecure and marginally talented, you get upset whine.

i'm not putting hillary into this category, emilie certainly did a fine job testing into dance and i expect hillary did also because of the subsequent good results---but testing all that dance that fast alone isn't much of a criteria for being a "strong" or "talented" dancer. some pretty awful stuff passes just because the skater is part of a "team" going into competition.

(and, skatewind, you know this is true!!!) for example, including, but not limited to, wrong patterns, falling down in both attempts on a solo, timing off (way off sometimes). ugh.
local judges tend to afford almost embarrassing latitude to "teams" testing to enter competition.

again, i don't put hillary or emilie in that catagory, but i've seen some real stinko dances pass for the sake of being able to qualify as a team for competition.

BittyBug

10-08-2003, 07:12 PM

There's no question that judging standards vary, and in certain cases much can be forgiven. However, I think that judges might let one or two things slide, but I personally have never seen a case in which a skater was inappropriately passed on every single test. Generally when judges are generous it's because they're giving the skater the benefit of the doubt because the skater has otherwise proven him or herself - I really can't imagine a situation in which a judging panel would gift a skater every single dance. So regardless of what judging leniencies you may have witnessed on individual occasions, I still think that passing all of your dance tests in a single year is quite an accomplishment that demonstrates a higher than average talent.

IceDanceSk8er

10-09-2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
i'm not putting hillary into this category, emilie certainly did a fine job testing into dance and i expect hillary did also because of the subsequent good results---but testing all that dance that fast alone isn't much of a criteria for being a "strong" or "talented" dancer. some pretty awful stuff passes just because the skater is part of a "team" going into competition.

To some extent, I agree with the above referenced quote, but the fact that she did pass all these tests speaks volumes for her talent and determination. How many sloppy compulsory dances have you seen skated by dancers with "more time in." Does it make Hilary a world class ice dancer, probably not. But give her credit for the hard work and dedication she has put into this. I sincerely doubt that Justin, who is an amazing talent, would skate with anyone. He's one of the most serious guys you'll meet when it comes to ice dance. Hilary and Justin placed first in Senior FD in Lake Placid, came in 3rd in Senior CD. With Hilary and Justin scheduled to skate in the Vienna Cup next week, there's no better measure to see how far a skater has come than in international competition - as long as the dance judges play fair, which will probably be unlikely.

Skatewind

10-09-2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
(and, skatewind, you know this is true!!!) for example, including, but not limited to, wrong patterns, falling down in both attempts on a solo, timing off (way off sometimes). ugh.
local judges tend to afford almost embarrassing latitude to "teams" testing to enter competition.
Generally speaking, you may see this from time to time, not only in dance, but sometimes in pairs & with boys testing MIF who do dance & pairs. But that isn't what happened in this case, & btw were those "local" judges at the Lake Placid competition or what did I miss there?

I'm just saying whether she's done 1 yr or 5 yrs of dance, take a look at the progress & what's put on the ice from year to year rather than automatically assuming & posting at every turn that she's being given a gift by biased judges, unless there is specific information to show this is happening. That wasn't the case last year, & I don't think it is this year either.

IceDanceSk8er

10-09-2003, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by Skatewind
Generally speaking, you may see this from time to time, not only in dance, but sometimes in pairs & with boys testing MIF who do dance & pairs. But that isn't what happened in this case, & btw were those "local" judges at the Lake Placid competition or what did I miss there?

I was just pointing out that the team did well in Placid, particularly against dance teams who have partners with more experience. I think you nailed it right on the head by saying it's what you put out there on the ice that matters.

Skatewind

10-09-2003, 10:17 AM

I agree IceDanceSk8er. The comment about the judges at Lake Placid was made to note those were not "local judges" who were judging, they were national competition judges. This team also had good results from the French & Canadian judges at that competition. There have been several presumptions made that don't seem very accurate.

what?meworry?

10-09-2003, 04:51 PM

skatewind, i respectfully suggest that you go back and reread my post more slowly. i specifically excluded---excluded---hilllary and emilie from my comment on rotten dance tests. and i specifically referenced ("subsequent good results" was the phrase used) positive results in their competitions so far.

as i said, local judges (of the marginal skaters testing up rapidly to qualify) really do pass stuff that would never pass if the skater weren't rushing to test to qualify for competition. i don't know were you got lake placid as a reference out of my "local judges" comment. there are "local judges" everywhere there are clubs and dance teams.

to quote myself "...but testing all that dance that fast alone isn't much of a criteria for being a "strong" or "talented" dancer." please note the "alone." it clearly isn't a valid indication alone of a talented, strong skater in as much as many (if not most) of those rapid-testers become one-season "wonders" ending up near the bottom and giving up.

HARUMPH!

BittyBug

10-09-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
to quote myself "...but testing all that dance that fast alone isn't much of a criteria for being a "strong" or "talented" dancer." please note the "alone." it clearly isn't a valid indication alone of a talented, strong skater in as much as many (if not most) of those rapid-testers become one-season "wonders" ending up near the bottom and giving up.

Just out of curiosity, how many other skaters do you know who have "passed all that dance that fast"?

what?meworry?

10-09-2003, 06:51 PM

"know" isn't the right word.
over the years i've seen about a dozen or so really pathetic testing situations from novice to senior, and often wondered if they hadn't rush into competition and waited a season, if they might have been more successful long term.

among those, i think 3 or 4 were "senior" and some "junior."

"successful" is a relative term in that they didn't exactly start out looking like potentially great dancers, but at least they could have enjoyed competition for a good number of years.

BittyBug

10-09-2003, 07:13 PM

I guess what I'm not following is that one the one hand, you're saying that passing tests is not necessarily an indication of talent. But, you made this comment in direct response to my post about Hilary in which I said that I thought that passing all of your dance tests in a single year shows talent, so if your post isn't about Hilary, then the only other possibility is that it must be about some other skater or skaters who also managed to pass all of their tests in a single year. But you don't know of any other skater who has managed to passed all of his or her tests in a single year. So, if you don't have an example of a skater who passed all of his or her dance tests in a single year who was a "one season wonder" who "ended up at the bottom" or "gave up", then I'm not sure why you seem so convinced that passing all of your tests in a single year is not an indication of talent.

what?meworry?

10-09-2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by BittyBug
I guess what I'm not following is that one the one hand, you're saying that passing tests is not necessarily an indication of talent. But, you made this comment in direct response to my post about Hilary in which I said that I thought that passing all of your dance tests in a single year shows talent, so if your post isn't about Hilary, then the only other possibility is that it must be about some other skater or skaters who also managed to pass all of their tests in a single year. But you don't know of any other skater who has managed to passed all of his or her tests in a single year. So, if you don't have an example of a skater who passed all of his or her dance tests in a single year who was a "one season wonder" who "ended up at the bottom" or "gave up", then I'm not sure why you seem so convinced that passing all of your tests in a single year is not an indication of talent.

no, you aren't getting it.
your logic that just because someone passed all the dance tests in a year means they're "strong and talented" is flawed.
over the years i've seen some of the actual tests of three such individuals where the errors were so egregous that there was no way they should have passed. but because they were running out of time to qualify for competition in the upcoming season, they passed.
in one case the pattern was wrong both times on the solos. for another, the timing was painfully off. and the worst of all, the dancer tripped on the partnering part and fell on the first and second solo and still passed.
you might or might not recognize the names, but, to no one's surprise, the teams were "bottom feeders" and didn't last very long.

hillary has absolutely nothing to do with the above commentary. and i specifically noted in the original post, that i wasn't referring to either hillary or emilie---twice.

however, i couldn't let the flawed standard for "strong" and "talented" stand as "passing all the dance tests in one year" go unchallenged.

1)just go back and carefully reread what i posted.

2)do you really think i'd name those dancers? (i didn't "know" them personally but i've "seen" the actual tests. does that help?)

3)why on earth is the hillary camp so darn paranoid?

(and since i had carefully responded to your confusion before this particular post, only to find out that my "time" for responding ran out and i lost the post, i'm entering this now and will edit to add some points. ---i really, really hate it when that happens.)

BittyBug

10-09-2003, 08:20 PM

First of all, I certainly did not ask you to name names, because it's irrelevant. I asked you how many skaters you knew who had passed all of their tests in a single year, and your response, at least as I read it, was none. (And mind you, I reread your posts several times.)

So again, I don't doubt that you may be familiar with cases in which skaters were passed on a specific test when they should not have been. But that's a lot easier to understand when a skater is just advancing a single test level. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's very hard for me to imagine that a skater could be passed along on all of their tests without deserving it, especially since a skater testing all the way through in a single year would not be in a position to coast based on reputation.

Finally, I am not part of the "Hilary camp" nor am I "paranoid" - I just find the logic of your post in the context in which you made it to be specious. That's just my opinion, of course. Obviously we disagree on this issue and that's fine - it's what makes discussion boards interesting. :)

what?meworry?

10-09-2003, 08:29 PM

bitty here is what i posted, please read it AGAIN carefully as follows:

"...know" isn't the right word.
over the years i've seen about a dozen or so really pathetic testing situations from novice to senior, and often wondered if they hadn't rush into competition and waited a season, if they might have been more successful long term.
among those, i think 3 or 4 were "senior" and some "junior..."

i have further clarified with a post and said about as clearly as i could, that there were 3 one year testers (senior) who were lousy tests that shouldn't have passed. (and the teams didn't survive.)as follows:

"...over the years i've seen some of the actual tests of three such individuals where the errors were so egregous that there was no way they should have passed. but because they were running out of time to qualify for competition in the upcoming season, they passed.
in one case the pattern was wrong both times on the solos. for another, the timing was painfully off. and the worst of all, the dancer tripped on the partnering part and fell on the first and second solo and still passed..."

saying that a skater is "strong and talented" just because that skater rushed through all the tests in one year in order to compete (and judges passed things that shouldn't have passed) is really flawed logic and proves absolutely nothing about the future success.

only successful competitions proves that a such a skater is "strong and talented."

BittyBug

10-09-2003, 08:45 PM

I'm sure that what you wrote seemed clear to you because you obviously understood what you intended to say. However, I read "about a dozen or so testing situations from novice to senior" - to mean skaters who tested up from novice to senior (not skaters who tested all the way through to either the novice, junior or senior level, which seems to be what you meant). Since my question was specifically about skaters who took all of their dance tests in a single year - i.e., tested all the way through to senior - your wording and the inclusion of other situations not directly relevant to my question was confusing. Thank you for clarifying.

Edited to add: If you go back to my original post, all I said was that I thought that passing all of one's tests in a single year showed talent. I did not say anything about "strong." I know many very talented skaters who do not do well in competition because it's just not in their constitution. I'm sure you do as well.

what?meworry?

10-09-2003, 08:52 PM

such "situations" means "in one year." that's what was being discussed.

"novice to senior" means to include "one year" novice testers, "one year" junior testers, AND "one year" senior testers. emilie, for example, was a "one year" junior tester.

BittyBug

10-09-2003, 08:54 PM

Thank you - I now understand what you meant in your original post.

what?meworry?

10-09-2003, 09:05 PM

and now that i've brought up emilie again. it's been a while since this thread began asking about nussear/forsythe.

emilie is still not in detroit training with brandon.

plenty of folks have read this.

i'd suppose one or both team members have read or at least heard about this thread.

and i suppose we, the curious, hope to hear from them rather soon since their website

http://www.ice-dance.com/nussear-forsyth/

(go to "news/updates)

reports they still planned to compete this season even though they withdrew from their international.

Skatewind

10-10-2003, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
3)why on earth is the hillary camp so darn paranoid?
This remark is way off base if it's in reference to any of my comments. I am definitely not what would be considered part of "the hilary camp". However, I do believe Justin can take any approach he wants for dance, & the team should be judged according to what they are putting out year to year, the good with the bad. Not based on whether people are disgruntled about his partnering choices or upset because he didn't remain with his former partner, or don't like his new partner, which are a lot of remarks I've read about this team for over a year now. I also believe that if one is going to say this team is being judged based solely on his reputation, they should have specific information to share regarding that analysis.

As for the testing, I'm in an area where there are constant complaints by skaters & parents that judges are 'too hard' on them. I regularly hear how they will be forced to go elsewhere to pass their tests. My view? Then go ahead if passing the test has become so much more important than quality skating. There may be certain geographic areas that are perceived at any given time as an easier place to test. I've heard of many over the years. However, the several incidents you have described when compared to the overall test volume, are not going to show there's an excessive amount of 'gifting' in the testing part of the sport. Also usually it's the girl who must prove herself compared to the boy. Due to the sheer volume of girls available, the general view is that there is always plenty of supply for that part of the team.

icefreak

10-10-2003, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Skatewind
Due to the sheer volume of girls available, the general view is that there is always plenty of supply for that part of the team.

This may be true in the lower levels, but definitely not in junior in senior. Sure there may be a girl on every corner, but that doesn't mean that they are competitive. There are no more than 25 or 30 competitive girls in the US. How many times over the years have we seen guys go years with out being able to find a girl partner who is 1. capable of doing the technical stuff; 2. is expressive; and 3. matches the partner.

ok rant over

Skatewind

10-10-2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by icefreak
This may be true in the lower levels, but definitely not in junior in senior.
I was referring to novice, junior, senior level tests. I've seen hundreds the last few years so it's not a remark I made lightly.

WeBeEducated

10-10-2003, 03:02 PM

The dance tests up to the silver level are so easy that any competent skater could learn and pass them. It doesnt take talent, it takes focus and motivation to pass alot of dance tests quickly.
I have known many skaters to go from dutch waltz to silver test in a few months, even several who were also competitive singles skaters.
Once past the silver though there is some hard work involved, and much greater technical difficulty.
It is an accomplishment to be proud of to pass them all in a year, and it indicates such a strong motivation . I definately believe that Hillary is hardworking, motivated, elegant, and very competent as a skater. I just dont feel she is a great icedancer yet.
I think there are a few teams at the Junior level with girls much more talented as dancers than Hillary, and several at the senior level.
If she wins a medal at the National Championships I believe it will be because of the judges' regard for Justin. Of course, I cant prove that, but it is just the way I feel at this point after seeing them skate over the past 2 years.
When former Junior World Champion in dance, Danil B., took Jennifer Wester for his partner many on this board complained that she wasnt worthy of him because she "certainly wasnt up to his level". That was the typical reaction even though Jennifer had many years of competitive icedance experience already. Imagine if he had chosen a partner who had never done dance!
It is only normal to be skeptical of very high placements of a senior team when one member of the team just began testing and competing.
That reaction shouldnt surprise her, nor should it discourage her.

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Skatewind
This remark is way off base if it's in reference to any of my comments...

As for the testing, I'm in an area where there are constant complaints by skaters & parents that judges are 'too hard' on them. I regularly hear how they will be forced to go elsewhere to pass their tests. My view? Then go ahead if passing the test has become so much more important than quality skating. There may be certain geographic areas that are perceived at any given time as an easier place to test. I've heard of many over the years. However, the several incidents you have described when compared to the overall test volume, are not going to show there's an excessive amount of 'gifting' in the testing part of the sport...

1)i was not in the remotest stretch of the imagination referring to you, skatewind, but to bitty and a couple of others in the past who practically jumped out of their skins when anything not gloriously positive about hillary was said. since lp most of them have calmed down, thank goodness.

2)the instances i reported were spread over many years and they were appalling and insulting to competitors who must put out quality tests
in order to pass. 2 of the 3 i referred to were girls.
it was specific to the "one-year testers" who needed to do so to compete in upcoming qualifiers.

3)hooray for your comment "...if passing the test has become more important than qualilty skating..." you comment on this relates to my point, there are judges who will give way too much latitude to skaters who must test through to qualify to compete. a little, perhaps, but not that stuff i saw. therefore, between my experiences and your comment, testing through alone doesn't prove a skater is a "strong and talented" dancer.

Jess-ka

10-10-2003, 07:42 PM

hmm after reading all of this i don't know how i feel about b/c i am one of those girls trying to do as many tests as i can so i can "cath up" and compete in dance b/c i was previously a singles skater and yeah the first couple of tests are really easy but i also had to pretty much re-learn all my cross overs and stroking and such b/c everything is much more detailed in dance (or so it seems to me) anyway i give alot of credit to those who can test everything in a yr, it certainly isn't the easiest thing to do.:?? oh and the judges that i have tested with haven't given me any slack b/c they know i am trying to test up so i can compete if anything they are a bit harder on me b/c they know i want to be a good competitor and they know me so they know what i am capible of....erm did any of that make sence?

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 08:19 PM

actually, jess-ka, you sound like an adult who is trying to pretend to be a dingy kid.

BittyBug

10-10-2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
1)i was not in the remotest stretch of the imagination referring to you, skatewind, but to bitty and a couple of others in the past who practically jumped out of their skins when anything not gloriously positive about hillary was said. since lp most of them have calmed down, thank goodness.

:roll:

Jess-ka

10-10-2003, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
actually, jess-ka, you sound like an adult who is trying to pretend to be a dingy kid. hmm wow that stung considering that i am only 17...wow..thanks.....

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 08:27 PM

i know a lot of real teenagers. they sound a lot more mature than you.

Jess-ka

10-10-2003, 08:32 PM

what the hell did i do??? i don't think it is fair for you to do this to me i didn't do anything to you.

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 08:43 PM

you've done nothing. it is that i detect an illigetimate "persona" with the "ummmm's" and semi-coherent commentary, and "do i make sence" stuff.

it is a value judgement on my part. it is my opinion. i sense a "game" being played starting with your first post and building to this point. it's as simple as that, but only you know the truth of who you are, and i admit, mine is a "judgement call" at best.

if i'm wrong, fine. but "me thinks the lady doth protest to much."

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by BittyBug
:roll:

sorry bitty, but that "exchange" we engaged in was boarderline theatre of the absurd.

Jess-ka

10-10-2003, 08:50 PM

me thinks you need to learn to get to know some one before you speak out off you butt. i am 17 yrs old i graduated highschool last yr, my birthdayis November 1st, 1985...do you need any more proof or would you like a copy of my birth certificate and a dna sample....i am srry that i say uhm and i want to make sure thati make sense, when i type on the computer i tend to lose myself in what i am saying and wander about in my thoughts. i try not to lose people and if i am not making sense i would liek to know so i can clarify what i am say. but you know what i don't need crap like this and if you want to go ahead and pretend thati am some old person posing as a teenager then by all means go ahead b/c you head is obviously so far up you butt i can't get you to believe other wise..i hope you are happy.

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 08:57 PM

then why do you choose to sound like a dingbat? you are presenting yourself as caricature of a dingy teenager. proof is irrelavent here. your image is what you present on this screen. why are you upset because i am evaluating you on what you are presenting in your posts.

but this is also way off the topic.

emilie and brandon still have not updated their website since august, even though it is now obvious that they are not going to be able to compete in sectional qualifiers and thus nationals this year. if they hoped to, they would need to be back to training by now.

Jess-ka

10-10-2003, 09:00 PM

you know what you win. may be i am a dingbat...maybe i am dumb maybe i am mental retarded but you don't knwo the whole story now do you and what right do you have to sit here and judge me on my posts when tonight is the most i have ever posted on this board.screw you.

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 09:11 PM

i would also suggest jess-ka, that if you wish to continue this exchange we do so via pm.

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by MotherSkater
I have a 17 year old and I work with teenagers. They all talk like Jess-ka.
And Jess-ka, I love seeing strong young women defending themselves. You have a good grip on it, but be careful how you say it. I tell my boss to go screw himself every day, but I've learned how to do it where it confuses the hell out him and he actually thinks I am being nice.....for a few seconds.

we clearly live in different worlds. the 15-18 year olds i know don't talk like that. and i know lots of them.

a quality debate that doesn't degenerate into pissy antics is valuable. the junk spewing is not.

soooo. how about answering the question i asked about your rink?

ok, "mother" but you really do appologize way too much. perhaps, if you feel you need to appologize so often, you could try not saying the things you later appologize for.

what?meworry?

10-10-2003, 11:49 PM

under simsbury a copy of the question:

"i'm curious. this exchange has gone on for quite a while.
is this primarily the freeskaters and parents?

i thought many of the top dance teams were there. are they separated from this controversy or are they embroiled in it as well.

just who are the elite skaters here (freestylers and dancers)?"

does that help?

printsesichka

10-11-2003, 06:49 AM

In my opinion you are ALL acting like 10 year olds. If Jess-ka's age or "age" has anything to do with Brandon and Emilie I missed the connection. I know plenty of 17 year olds who talk worse than Jess-ka, and plenty who speak much more like adults. Her age cannot really be determined from a message board, as many people speak and type differently... however there have been many situations of people "playing games" so Jess-ka, don't be too offended. If you're really 17, then you know that and you can know you are right. If not, I think it might be time to just stop your mouth (or fingers) and drop it. WMW - your posts are always well thought out and mature. I only wish that I had the maturity you always seem to display. It would be the perfect day if everybody was as mature and smart as you.

Printsesichka

what?meworry?

10-11-2003, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by printsesichka
...If Jess-ka's age or "age" has anything to do with Brandon and Emilie I missed the connection...

i finally figured that out too. sometimes it's hard to avoid getting involved in one of these "spitting contests" which is why i took it to pm's.

to quote myself from an attempt to recapture the topic---so i'll try again:

"...but this is also way off the topic.
emilie and brandon still have not updated their website since august, even though it is now obvious that they are not going to be able to compete in sectional qualifiers and thus nationals this year. if they hoped to, they would need to be back to training by now..."

there's been no update recently: http://www.ice-dance.com/nussear-forsyth/ (see "news")

Skatewind

10-13-2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
3)hooray for your comment "...if passing the test has become more important than qualilty skating..." you comment on this relates to my point, there are judges who will give way too much latitude to skaters who must test through to qualify to compete. a little, perhaps, but not that stuff i saw.
I guess I neglected to complete the story by saying that when I have heard skaters & parents say they are going to the "easy areas" to test & then actually do it, probably at least 75% of the tests in the "easier test" locations are still resulting in **retries** for those skaters. So the problem in many of those cases seems to be with their perception & skill level, not severely curved judging. So we still don't really agree, since you apparently feel there's a lot of this that goes on. I believe it is more of an exception that generally is skewed in favor of boys not girls.

what?meworry?

10-17-2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Skatewind
...with their perception & skill level, not severely curved judging. So we still don't really agree, since you apparently feel there's a lot of this that goes on. I believe it is more of an exception that generally is skewed in favor of boys not girls.

my commentary related exclusively to those teams "testing up" in order to qualify for qualifying competition, 1) all dances in one season, and 2) required "level" dances in order to qualify for the coming season.

i still maintain that "local" judges will darn near pass anything, no matter how lousey it is, so as not to prevent the erstwhile "team" from actually being able to qualify to compete that season.

my "eyewitness" reports about the few who tested all dances from preliminary thru senior in order to be able to compete in the qualifiers, still stands.