To the adults who have been to a lot of adult competitions, what was the most difficult jump combinations that you've seen an adult skater landed cleanly? Just curious.

I've seen double axel-double toe -- that was clean.. and double axel-double loop with the loop cheated about 1/8th rotation... but she had enough power to still get reasonable flow coming out of it. Both of these were in practice sessions though.. not in competition... and I didn't know this woman... but from the way she skated, it looked like she had skated as a kid.

Depends if you mean a skater who is now an adult by dint of growing up and therefore lots of international level skaters qualify or do you mean at an adults only (non-elite) competition which can still have plenty of ex-child skaters and therefore high level jumps or do you mean adults who learnt to skate past the age of 21 or more? It would appear the older you are when you learn to skate then the less you can achieve in the way of jump difficulty.

Adult learners rarely get to an axel let alone beyond but in 'adult' competitions there are plenty who can do double -doubles at masters level.

Those adults who have never been on the ice until they were an adult are at the most disadvantage - though some with a gymnastics or dance background can still do quite well. A single axel is the most I have seen a 'learnt-as-an-adult skater' achieve in competition.

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

I agree. It would be totally exceptional to find an adult who didn't learn till they were an adult to land a double-double combination. I don't know any adult here in the UK who didn't skate as a child who can land a double jump. Generally the hardest jump I've ever seen a UK adult do is a lutz-loop combination.

Nicki

Yes, which is why I always try to make a distinction between adult-onset skaters (AOS) and skated-as-kid (SAK) skaters when answering questions about what adult skating is like. And every time this is brought up in various public forums (here, adultedge, etc.), there are always several posts about how "so-and-so at my rink didn't start skating until they were 101 and now has all doubles through lutz." There are always exceptions to every rule. It is, however, a widely accepted generalization that AOS skaters won't get anywhere near the jump proficiency of SAK skaters. Mostly it's a axel, axel combo, or a couple of recognizable, but not-so-great doubles.

Which is why I'm MUCH more impressed with seeing an AOS skater (who spends 5 hours a week on the ice) land an axel at the age of 45 than I am with watching somebody who's skated most of their life (and spends 12 hours a week on the ice) land a triple! Not that I don't respect the Larry Hollidays, but I'd rather see Rob Lichtefeld land his axel any day!

I know a girl at my rink who started skating in her twentites. She has axel & double salchow (both are nice and clean and high) and is working on double toe & double loop. I think it's do-able, that is, to start skating in your twenties and learn doubles, etc. But you need determination & some already present form of "body awareness" (ie. that you have a good control over your limbs and 'feel' them).

I also know another girl who started skating at 19/20 and within two years had axel, double salchow, double cherry and double loop.

I get the feeling that a lot of skaters who start at an older age are more responsible, disciplined and focused when training. They don't sit at the boards to chat/gossip as much, focusing much more on practicing and training. Also, I get the feeling that older skaters listen more closely & grasp faster what their coaches tell them (than children/teens). They are really out there to learn and really WANT to skate/really love it.

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~Caro~

"Act as if it were impossible to fail."

When I was at nationals and watching the Master's junior ladies, I heard someone mention that Kim Sailer (who won the event) started skating as an adult (in her twenties?). I think she landed at least one double-double combo in her program. I can't remember exactly, but I remember being impressed. She'd be my new hero if she actually did start skating as an adult.

Kim's a good buddy of mine. Yes, she started at age 27. Her first ANs was Oakland and she competed in Silver! She's worked up to Masters, and has through 2lutz. Her 2-2 was a 2toe-2toe, I think.

Kim is my hero! I remember meeting her in 1999 an Ann Arbor. I watched her event back then and she was just barely attempting the d.sal. When I watched her this year at AN I was shocked as I knew that she was truely an AOS. It gave me hope that maybe someday I will get that elusive double as an AOS.

Please, if there are more stories like Kim's I would love to hear them. I need inspiration!

Another story like Kim is Jason Spicer, who was third in championship gold men this year. He's only been skating for a few years and recently passed his novice moves. And he's landing through double flip!

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

I've skated my whole life, and I really don't understand this gargantuan difference that child skaters supposedly have from adult skaters. The only difference I really see is that my peers and I look and feel very comfortable on the ice, while the very few adults I've ever seen skate appear more scared and tentative (this is not, I'm sure, the majority, just the ones I've seen at the rinks I skate at). It's a comfort level. I am *sure* that if adult skaters didn't all have busy lives to lead and bills to pay, and could spend as much time and money on ice as we do, they would have at least double/doubles- I mean, even most kid skaters don't get their triples. But I'm sure some adults would get triples, too.

I don't think it's an age thing half as much as it is a commitment/time/money thing, and also a fear issue. Many adults I've seen are scared to go for the big jumps. I've been jumping and falling on my butt since I was 5, so I am not scared of anything. I really think those are the main differences, as opposed to what most people (including adult skaters, it seems..) think, and that is that they physically can't do it. I think you can. What is the difference? I mean, what about the Brian Boitanos/Paul Wylies/ Oksana Bauils of the world? They are older and they still do big jumps. I'm not sure there's that much difference between learning a jump and maintaining it for SO many years (and we all know jumps come and go, especially with older athletes who no longer compete or train at an intense level). And us child skaters all had to relearn our jumps and adjust our centers of gravity after each and every damn growth spurt anyways (and that wasn't fun), so I don't see the difference with just learning it once you're grown. The skaters I listed above may have been elite skaters, but they've still got adult bodies, and probably ones with way more cracks and dents and foreign metal pieces in there than most of you guys do. Muscle memory is one thing, but if you've been pounding triples for 20 years, you should be less capable of still doing them than someone with a relatively injury free body of a similar age.

And the last thing, I think, that's holding adult skaters back, is that they are told they can't. And they believe it, cause everyone says so. I think the only way to find out if you can land a double/double or triple, is to try. That's the only way you'll have the true answer for you.

From an adult perspective, a lot of it depends on whether you have continued to skate throughout your entire adult life or if there is a sizeable gap between quitting and re-starting. I started as a 'young woman' at age 17 and by the time I was 22 I was working on an axel, double sal and double flip. The axel was consistent and the other two were becoming reliable. But I was off the ice for 25 years, and am nowhere near picking up where I had left off. I have no doubt that I will be back to axels, double sal's and double flips one day... It is just going to take some time. My good friend who is only 10 years younger than me has skated all the way through and lands doubles consistently. If I had had no 25 year gap, I'd be still landing them too.

One thing IS true - The fear of falling is a MUCH bigger factor at 50 than it was at 17.

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If you keep your eyes on God, you can walk on water.

AGREED 100%!!! I keep seeing these debates around like "should adult skaters who started as kids be allowed to skate with adults who started as adults?" and such complete b/s, and frankly, it's sickening and gets very old very fast.

Agreed. Sure, somebody who started at 5 and has been skating non-stop for 20 years might have an advantage over somebody the same age who started at 20 and skated for 5 years, but somebody who started at 20 and skated non-stop with the same dedication for 20 years is probably on an equal level. I sincerely wish people would get over the whole age thing and look at skill level alone.

Off-topic, and many will disagree I'm sure, but I absolutely *love* Oksana Baiul!

HERE HERE!! Oh stardust, you hit the nail SO VERY PERFECTLY on the head here. When I started skating, I had no doubts about becoming a great skater with enough effort, I just *knew* in my heart that I would be able to become competition-worthy, and I didn't even know about the easier adult competitions at that point. And I progressed rapidly.

But then I kept reading and hearing, again and again, statements about how adults never accomplish this or that, nobody who starts as an adult can learn triples, we cannot learn as fast, our bodies aren't physically capable, etc. etc. etc. I ignored it for a while, but after hearing something enough, I think you start to believe it. Once that happens, progress slows dramatically, and suddenly all the things you never wanted to believe become your reality. This is what I'm trying to overcome now. Sometimes I wish I had never looked on the internet for places to discuss skating for this reason.

The father of one of my landlords is in town this week, and has been doing some rather major renovation of the front yard, which has involved moving lots of dirt, putting in a retaining wall made of railroad ties and rebar, and building a wood fence. I've helped on a couple occaisions with this, and it's kicked my behind. The guy is in his 60's, and works with such an incredible amount of strength and endurance that it blows me away. I've never seen anybody in their prime years work so diligently and hard. Nothing phases him, he just gets out there and does what he sets out to do, without letting anything get in his way. And he does it all wearing a kilt, to boot. If he listened to what people said was appropriate for his age, he'd be sitting in a recliner thinking about retirement homes now. But instead he's out there outperforming what 99% of men in their 20's and 30's could manage in a day, and moreover manages it EVERY DAY, because he knows he can, and believes only in what he knows to be possible for himself.

That's the kind of mentality I want.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Wow, guys, you inspired me. I'm going to try my first single toe loop and slachow this weekend. I tried them off-ice and I think I'm getting grasp of the technique, but I wasn't sure if I'm ready to have a go at them on ice. Watch out kiddies, Mrs 5'11'' is throwing her long legs around!!

Speaking about what you can achieve as an adult. I know that now I'm in a way much better physical shape when I was as a kid (which only says I was a really stocky and phlegmatic kid). Somewhere in my early twenties I discovered that I'm at least as fit as the most of my age group. In the past few years I found that I'm more fit then most of them. I think, if you keep exercising consistently, not just for a few weeks before and after Xmas or at the start of beach season, and watch what you eat, you can keep quite a decent form, so learning new skills would come along easier.

About "nevers": I remember some funny ones of mine:

Session 2: Going backwards on skates is impossible! It's against my laws of physics!

Session 6: There's no way I can do this! (about a 3-turn)

Session 25: I now do WHAT??? (After my coach suggested I try a waltz jump)

Who knows, maybe one day I will add a double jump to this list of silly "nevers", only time can tell. Meanwhile, now if my coach asks me to do something particularly intimidating, I just shut up and do it. There's a good Russian saying for the occasion: "Eyes are afraid, but hands are doing" - well, in this case, "legs are doing". It's the best part of this sport when you pull something you thought is impossible and just stand there with an imbecile smile: "Gosh, I never knew I could do THAT!" Surprises, surprises....

sceptique, I love your "nevers!" I was perplexed by mohawks for the longest time--how was it even possible to start out going forward, change feet, and end up going backward?

That Russian saying is great. I need to write it on my arm--or stitch it on my sweater--so I can refer to it frequently during lessons! I'm just about to start learning the toe loop and salchow as well. Woohoo!

It's not just fear that's holding most adults back. Why do you think a child can pick up and learn a foreign language so much easier and quicker than an adult? Children have an adaptability that diminishes significantly as they get older. The adult muscles are already used to doing things a certain way and unless you're already a top-level athelete and have done a lot of cross-training, you're body and mind aren't going to cooperate to let you do those difficult skating technical elements.

See! You guys are proving me right. These folks are exceptional because they're ... um ... exceptions.

When I first started skating (as an adult), I only wanted to skate competently backwards, so I didn't look foolish on public sessions. Granted, there was A LOT of fear of falling (more than being afraid of going fast on the ice). I only skated about 20 times in my life before this.
Ok, after LOTS of hard work on and off the ice, I'm close to actually landing a single jump (after 1 1/2 years of skating). I never thought I'd actually reach this point. I think that if I try hard enough and want it bad enough (which I do), doubles might be possible for this ole' gal (I'm 43)..... I'm in better shape now than last year, and it's getting easier for me to do certain things, harder for others because I constantly push to do more.
I hope this makes sense to you guys; I think it does....

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Right on. I train with a lot of competitve skaters, and I don't recall anyone saying that they've been told they can't do x.

BUT ... skating as a child IS different than skating as an adult.

"Should adult skaters who started as kids be allowed to skate with adults who started as adults?" and such complete b/s, and frankly, it's sickening and gets very old very fast."
I think it's part of a healthy debate of what adult skating is and how it can and must develop. I have no problem skating against adults who have skating as kids. But they do, in general, skate better.

"Sure, somebody who started at 5 and has been skating non-stop for 20 years might have an advantage over somebody the same age who started at 20 and skated for 5 years, but somebody who started at 20 and skated non-stop with the same dedication for 20 years is probably on an equal level."

Sorry, but I think this is a naive assessment. I'd like to think that the length of time were a sole isuue, but it's not. (I am, however, glad to read how you think, because mentality can help out a lot in your training.)

"I've skated my whole life, and I really don't understand this gargantuan difference that child skaters supposedly have from adult skaters."
Exactly; you've skated your whole life. How can you even begin to skate a mile in our (adult) boots? You can't.

Age IS a major factor. Repost after you've passed into your 30s and 40s. Then you can join in on the discussions about knee, back, and shoulder problems.

In addition, there are many adult skaters who train 5, 6, even 7 days per week, skating up to 20+ hours/week. The reason they don't progress up to, say, triples, is that they are, um adults.

But while I doubt I'll ever land a double/double (or even all of my clean doubles by themselves), I DO enjoy working on double flip and double salchow. I don't let the pragmatism stop me from working hard.
Pragmatism may be a limiting force in the eyes of some folks, but I don't think blind idealism is any better.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Here's why you don't understand it: read the first 5 words of this post.

And you don't think that's a big difference? The person who is more comfortable on the ice is going to progress more rapidly and further.

The ice time is a big issue for AOS skaters, and it's a big limiter in terms of acquiring skills, but it's not the only one. Older bodies simply don't learn new physical skills as easily as younger bodies. I have 40 years of muscle memory to UNLEARN while I'm trying to learn new muscle memory.

Wow, you're just making my arguments for me. We have NOT been falling on our butts since we were 5. We've learned that breaks, pulls, strains, bruises take longer to heal when you're older. Most of us don't consciously fear the ice, but subconsciously we know we have jobs and families and responsibilities. Falling on axel attempts when you're 8 may bruise your little tushy for a couple of days, but falling on an axel attempt (when you're not as comfortable on the ice as the 8 year old anyway) when you're 40 can give you muscle strains, bruises, or even muscle tears that can last for a week or more.

Puhleeze. You're trying to use Brian Boitano to argue that someone who took up skating at 35 can learn triples??

I wouldn't be so sure. I only know of 1 or 2 AOS skaters who haven't had major body part issues, including torn things, broken things, metal rods, metal screws, etc. Personally, I've been making the mortgage payments on my physical therapist's beach house for the last three years. I'm not unusual, in my experience, in that regard.

Nobody has ever told me I can't. I'm not a fatalist; I'm a realist. I've been using my body for 40 years, and I have a good sense of what it can and cannot do. In spite of my years of ballet training, overall excellent physical condition, and "try almost anything" approach to life. I'm a good skater, and I usually place well against my peers in competition. I test standard track moves because they're good for me. I'm very positive about my skating. But I'm not delusional. A 40-year old body has a tougher time learning a double salchow than a 18-year old body.

Go to a large adult competition, like Adult Nationals or Peach Classic. Watch Bronze II, then watch Bronze V. You'll see a big difference. Same level; same ice time (actually, some of the Bronze Vers have more ice time because they're retired). Big difference in age; big difference in skills.

I'm sure those of you who aren't AOSers think your pop psychology about this is correct. But it's not all about our brains. It really is a physical thing, for all but the exceptional few.

With all due respect, you haven't been around the adult skating world very long. There are very good reasons why this debate keeps going. Some of them are historical; some of them are experiential. Feel free to skip these discussions.


How old are you? I'm not being facetious. Do you even know any older adult skaters?

"The whole age thing" is what brought about adult skating in the first place. Why do you think adults are separated from the kisd? Why do you think there are age classes within adult skating? There is, whether you like to admit it or not, a very real difference in the body's ability to learn to skate as you age. A 50 year old is not a 20 year old.


Are you trying to blame your slowed progress on the things you read on the web? You don't think it could genuinely be the "sophomore slump" that everyone acknowledges? Could it be that you've just ceased to progress on your own, and it has nothing to do with all the negative vibes we've been sending your way?

I don't really see this as being appropriately analagous. It's not like this guy had to "learn" how to move heavy objects in the yard. He**, I can move heavy objects in the yard. My muscles have spent a lifetime lifting and moving stuff. I'm strong, and I have good endurance. Give the guy a pair of skates and ask him to learn a double toe.

IMO, there is a difference between a kid skater and an AOS (I'm one of those skated as a kid, took 20+ years off, came back types.) I didn't believe it when I came back to skating, but I do now. Not to say that an AOS skater can't beat me in competition because I'm a "kid" skater - they have before and will again. But there is a different feel, I guess, to most people's skating who started as kids as opposed to those who started as adults.

Re the quote above -- I have been back on ice for a few years now, and am just starting to land my doubles, even though I had most of them as a kid (oh, and I'm not at all afraid to fall). My 10 year old son, who plays hockey, was on figure skates a few months ago (for something like the third time in his life), and he almost got complete rotation on a double toe. Says a bit about the learning curve of the youngsters as compared to the old folks, doesn't it?

Regarding the original topic - I just landed my first axel-double toe combinations this week. Of course, I lost my axel the next day (it came back, fortunately) and I lost my double toe for the rest of the week..... Welcome to adult skating!

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I do. But you misunderstand at least partly. I don't disagree with the different classes for different age groups, this is okay. What I disagree strongly with is the idea that 2 skaters of the same age should be separated based on whether or not they began skating before they turned 18. And I'm arguing this as one who's at the disadvantage, here. It all seems a bit silly since we have different levels after all.

25, and yes. I know quite a few started-as-adult skaters and others who started as kids but weren't terribly dedicated, though most are in their 20's or early 30's.

But a 25 year old who started at 5 is still 25, just as the 25 year old who started at 20. That is my point.

No, I'm blaming it on buying into the recurring statements I hear over and over and over and over in real life, on TV, on the web, you name it. I'm not blaming the sources, I'm blaming myself.

That everyone acknowledges? Then why is it I haven't even heard this term before now?

Well you're looking at it entirely wrong. It's not just lifting and moving stuff, it's the attitude and speed involved. When this man sets out to do something, he gets it done. There is much more mental fortitude involved here than physical strength alone.

Roll your eyes all you want, but I firmly believe that if he had the interest, he could go out there and learn the double toe, much faster than you or I. Why? Because he knows he can do anything he sets his mind to, and does not stop until he succeeds.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Fear is perhaps not the best word, "self-doubt" is much more appropriate, though fear is definitely a part of it. Adults typically learn new skills slower because they are more uncertain, and are afraid (yes, afraid) of really REALLY trying and having fun with it. They are more worried about embarrassment, failure, and imperfection. In physical activities, worry about physical damage comes into play too. I'm not saying that any of these worries are unjustified, but when they do exist as they most often do, they slow us down.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I am an adult skater that skated as a child, and I feel I have a HUGE advantage to those who started as adults. I am 30. And I am out of shape. But I still have muscle memory. Though it can be years and years between even recreational 20 minute skates, there were always things I could do. There are basic things that I retained. Of course, 99% of the adults at my rink can kick my a** even though they started as adults, but it tooks years and years to get some moves versus months for children.

I don't expect do be able to do doubles again (I don't really want to), but I think it is naive to think that adult skaters who skated as children (and even those who quit inbetween like I did for basically 15 years or so) don't have an easier time of it (versus adult skaters who had no childhood experience).

Physiologically speaking, like others said, the adult body is MUCH different than a child's body. And a 20 year old body is different than a 30 year old's and so on.

The great thing about this sport is that we all love skating, regardless of where/when/how we started

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Natalie

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