Hi,
I'm back. DD has passed basic 3 and is now in basic 4-5 (a combined class). If you remember from last post, DD hates do go backwards (like the backward one foot glide). Obviously she mastered those basic 3 backward moves, but now the trouble is the 3 turn. Now this kid can do all the elements from basic 5, including a backward crossover (and she does it the proffessional way, as my friend puts it, she never lifted that crossing over foot, she went right to that swishing in front thing and then lifting the back foot over). So what is the trouble? Any hints?
Thanks for any input.

3-turns are hard for a lot of folks just learning them. The turn is all about where you put your weight, your foot, arms, shoulders, etc. and how you use your core muscles to help the turn. I hate to say it, but it just takes lots and lots of practice.

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She needs to get over the "I won't skate backwards" thing. Most of the higher level elements require it. That's why she can do the "professional" back crossover - she's using both feet. I'll bet she's just scratching it out because she's not shifting her weight properly to one foot at a time.

She has to practice backward edges every single time she skates - at least 6 laps of them so she gets comfortable on one foot, going backwards.

The three turn is a forward edge, turn, backward edge. She has to not use the toepick to turn. She has to bend her knee and glide backwards to finish the turn.

The biggest problem with skaters and three-turns is usually the upper body and core control, as Kim pointed out. That could be a contributing factor, but it sounds like the one-foot part is the issue here.

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I had to look up a back outside edge.
Is this it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0E-QpuszgQ

As has already been said, getting a solid backward one foot glide would be a help. Get her to do this in a straight line and make sure she practises on both of her feet, not just one.

Once she's got used to going a distance equivalent to her height you can get her to increase that distance.

My coach had me do this (as an adult skater) and it really improved my balance. I was very soon able to glide on one foot backwards for over half the length of the rink. Once she's comfortable with going backwards in a straight line on one foot she should get used to the idea of gliding backwards on a curve as she must be able to do that for three turns to work.

Good luck!

Sarah

Yes, the skater skates backwards on an outside edge.

However, she's probably working on forward outside three turns.
They start on a forward outside edge, turn, then finish on a back INSIDE edge.

That's demonstrated in the second half of the video.

She should be working on both, but that's a more advanced version from the Adult Bronze test. (Also on the Pre-Preliminary moves test)


Here's an outside 3-turn tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osbGr...02460C&index=4

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Hi

I also struggled with 3 turns when I first learnt it. Then I came over to Singapore during summer vacation, and learnt ice skating with another coach. He taught me the turn with both feet first, and then told me to move my arms first, then my body would turn next. That method worked for me fine.

londonicechamp

This is a good point. She needs to be able to do a solid 2-foot turn before it's likely she'll be able to get her 3-turn. How is her two foot turn? (Basic 2 teaches 2 foot turn in place, Basic 3 a 2-foot turn moving. If she passed, she should be able to do it. Perhaps she passed but still needs to keep practicing that skill on her own. Many kids pass a level and think they have mastered everything, rather than being "just good enough", which isn't quite the same) That's a good place to learn to check the arms, and also to learn to glide out of the turn, rather then stopping in place.

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Hi Skittl1321

Only after I managed the two foot turn did this coach in Singapore teach me the proper 3 turn (that is: with one leg only).

londonicechamp

Well the 2 foot turn looks good to me. It was a loong time before her coach liked it, but she says it is good now. With the 3 turn, she does the turn, then she stomps the other foot down. Coach gives her just a finger to hold and then she keeps the foot up. The finger can't be doing that much, it's only a finger

3 turns can take a long time to get. I remember going to public session & doing nothing but 3 turns over & over again for weeks before they started to get reasonably consistent.

It depends on the skater--if she can do it w/ the touch of a finger, then it's just a confidence issue, & that will only be solved with time, practice, and determination.

First, I'm neither a coach nor an outstanding skater. I still have lots of trouble with three turns. (I have taught some low level Basic classes on a volunteer basis.)

Good one foot 3-turns require strength. The other elements up to Basic Skills 5 don't, so it isn't surprising 3-turns are harder.

I'm sorry if I am suggesting a lot of off-ice strengthening exercises, which aren't much fun. But I believe lack of strength is the main reason people (including me) have trouble with turns and jumps - including the ones your daughter is about to get into.

Here are the exercises I personally follow. I try to do them all as a sequence. (The spinning exercises I do off ice too.) Maybe they will help.

Do your best to truly master each step before going on to the next.

(Throughout, "you" is addressed to the skater, your child.)

1. You can indeed easily create a spin with your arms. Just wrap the arms around your body in one direction (CW=clockwise) while standing still on two feet. Unwrap your arms and wrap them CCW. When the arms finish wrapping, the angular momentum (a physics measure of the tendency to spin) is transfered to your body, and your whole body will spin CCW. As you wrap and unwrap, rotate your entire spine as far as it will go.

Try wrapping and spinning in one direction, then reversing the wrap and spin in the opposite direction, then reverse again and go in the first direction, and repeat over and over again. Master doing "two foot spins" this way.

Most first time skaters can do this easily.

Most kids easily have the flexibility to turn 90 degrees or more in each directions. If not, work on flexibility by doing this exercise off-ice after warming up. BUT - if you have ever injured your spine, this is dangerous. I've seen people with prior histories of spinal injury re-injure themselves with a similar flexibility exercise while paddling kayaks. Consult a physical therapist or similar expert.

2. Start gliding forward on two feet, and do the same exercise while moving, to create "two foot 3-turns". Turn 180 degrees forwards to back CCW, then back to forwards CW, and repeat, all while gliding in the same direction on a straight line.

3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 in the other direction: CW forward to back, then back to forward CCW, etc. You may find step 2 easier than 3, or 3 easier than 2.

Step 3 is within the abilities of most kids and adults who have mastered Basic 1.

4. In the case of 3 turns, it helps a lot to lean inside towards the center of the circle you are skating on, just before the turn. Lean a lot.

The hardest part may be coming back out of the lean as you finish the turn.

Try to Master steps 2 and 3 with the lean. It's hard.

It can also help if you raise yourself to your toes as you start to turn, and come back down as you stop. More about this later, because it requires strength.

5. Now repeat step 1, but "check" (stop) the spins by wrapping the arms the opposite way when you want to stop spinning or turning. This is just an exercise to prepare you for the next. You probably won't have to end spins with a check at least at entry levels, because you won't be able to spin long enough for stopping to be a problem.

These are a lot harder, because they require careful timing. You may never quite get it. Eventually you may have to give up and go on to step 6.

6. Repeat steps 2-5 with that same style check. Again, do as well as you can for now, then go on.

7. Now try to master steps 1 and 5 on one foot, to produce "1 foot spins". Doing anything on one foot is way harder than two, because of balance, so don't expect full mastery. You will probably have to start on two feet, then lift the other foot up while spinning, and put the other foot down again when you stop, at least for now.

Eventually you should be able to start the unwrap and spin just after lifting the other foot, and not put the other down until you have stopped.

By the way, few people can stay balanced on one foot without gliding or spinning on it, but you are welcome to try.

(But don't expect to be able to reverse spin directions while standing on one foot, though trying is fun, if you know how to fall safely. You will fall if you try.)

You will probably find it easiest to pivot on the ball of your foot.

(For these exercises I am going to ignore the whole issue of stepping into spins. After all you asked about turns.)

8. Now try to master steps 2-6 on one foot to produce "1 foot 3-turns".

Again, these are very hard, so don't expect complete mastery, ever.

It is possible to reverse spin directions while gliding along a line on one foot, and trying is fun, but is way beyond the abilities of most Basic 5 students. If you try it, you will fall.

Do these on the left foot (which is easier for most but not all people), and then the right foot. (A few people find it easier to master the right foot first - it's OK to change the order.)

A lot of kids and adults never quite trust their balance enough to do a big outside lean on outside edges, and you need that to do good outside 3 turns. I've seen a lot of otherwise advanced kids and adults who never quite get anything right that requires outside leans.

The front to back turn should still be on the ball of the foot, or slightly forwards of that. Many people take it all the way to the toe. The back to front turn (which is much harder) works best on a point back of the center of the blade.

9. Wrapping arms on turns is a beginnerish technique, that even some first time skaters can easily do; because it requires very little strength.

Figure skating coaches and judges don't like full arm wraps on turns. They think that if you use your arms at all, they should stay straight, and swing forward and back, not swing around your body.

Another problem with using your arms in turns is that it creates net angular momentum, which makes it hard to stop (check) the turn at the end.

On the other hand, wrapping arms, fully or partly, is often used in spins, even at high skill levels. (You obviously can't spin with your arms staying in place.)

On the turns for this step, try to keep your arms straight next to your side, and swing one arm forward and the other back to create the instead of wrapping.

Swinging arms doesn't work as well as wrapping, but figure skating people think it shows more control.

So repeat all the steps from 1-8 above that involve turns (not spins) using this technique.

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(Continued from last post)

10. Eventually you want to do all the turns (not the spins) in steps 1-8 without any arm or shoulder wraps or swings at all. Just extend the arms and shoulders straight out at your sides at shoulder level, and turn the body against it.

Most kids who have mastered Basic 2 can do this on two foot turns. But 1 foot 3-turns are harder!

This requires upper body strength, to hold your upper spine and shoulders still, while you pivot about your waist.

11. Off-ice strengthening helps a lot. http://Sk8Strong.com has a whole bunch of neat exercises if you buy her stuff, but if you are at the beginning levels of making yourself strong, here are some more basic exercises.

Remember to strengthen yourself gradually, and only after you are warmed up by aerobic exercise, because it is extremely easy to hurt yourself by doing too much too fast! If you get sore, stop. If you stay sore more than a few minutes after exercise, especially if any pain occurs beyond 15 minutes, or appears later (e.g., the next day), you probably did too much. (There is disagreement about this. Start talking to kids and adults at the rink - many of the best athletes hurt all the time. Then again, some have arthritis by the time they are teenagers, and can barely walk by the time they are 40.)

Two handed push ups. If not strong enough to do a push-up flat, either pivot off your knees, or put your hands on steps while your feet are at the base of the stairs.

There are variations for super-strong people that I may never be able to do. One handed push ups, or clap your hands while you are in the up position.

Pull ups. If not strong enough to do pull ups, support yourself partly with your legs. Be careful not to hurt yourself. If you are really strong, try this with one hand, but be very careful.

There are gym machines where you pull something down against weights that you can use instead of pull-ups.

Mostly do pull ups with you hands and arms in front of your body, to avoid dislocating your shoulders.

The weight machines allow you to more safely limit motion, and you can pull down with the arms and hands slightly behind.the head, which exercises a different set of muscles. Be very careful, especially if your shoulders are flexible! If you are able to pull your shoulder blades back so they don't touch your arm bones by using your own strength, you are pretty flexible, so consult a physical therapist or similar expert.

Pull things horizontally at shoulder level with one or both arms too. You could use stretch bands or bungee cords at home. I use a rowing machine at a local gym.

It is safest to pull with your arms straight in front of you, but you should pull at other angles too, to strengthen other muscles. But pulling with your arms behind your body can be dangerous to your shoulders.

12. It helps a lot if you can achieve balance by pulling in all the muscles around your body at the level of your abdomen, instead of by flinging your arms and shoulders around.. When you do this, you will feel everything starting with your ribs above the abdomen lift away from your hips, and your spine will straighten. Ballet ballroom and ice dancers call this good posture, but I'm just trying to improve stability and control. By the way, this position also increases spinal flexibility. Many experts say it's not healthy to be in this lifted straightened spine position all the time, but it does help when doing spins and turns.

This requires core (abdomen, lower back, and the muscles on the sides between them) and leg strengthening too. Again, http://Sk8Strong.com has exercises, as do Pilates books and videos, but here are some more basic ones:

Sit ups, both straight and diagonally to each side.

Leg raises, crossed in front of you, front, rear and side, and moving slowly between those positions, while you are standing, as well as in bent knee positions. Same while lying on your back. Same while lying on your stomach.

Do these with your feet in neutral position, with them turned in, and with them turned out.

Standing on one leg for a long time. Spiral (arabesque) positions help too - both with the foot comfortable down, and with the foot turned out as when skating.

Staying still in a squat position for a long time. If you must, put your hands on your knees to help.

If you can, stay in "shoot the duck" positions and other one foot squat positions, a long time. It is cheating to rest your rear end on a foot, or to let the limits of your knee's range of motion hold you up. Use your muscles.

Squats (deep knee bends and raise exercises). Two footed. One footed if you are strong. To push your strength while keeping your body in a safe position, you can use bench press machines at the gym.

Stepping up onto steps and back down again.

Alternate lunges. Some people say you should not repeatedly lunge with your knees bent more than 90 degrees. Be sure to keep the knees aligned above the feet. If they wander sideways, it can gradually injure the cartilage in the knees.

I can't find a good off-ice exercise to strengthen pulling my legs together without equipment. You could stand on one leg and pull against an anchored stretch band or bungee with the other leg to bring the legs together. Or you could rest one leg vertically on the floor, and the other leg horizontally on some steps, and push your body up with the leg on the steps - but these are both very awkward. Maybe the easiest exercise is on-ice swizzles, done fast.

Maybe jumping on trampolines. Be careful of everything!

Maybe kayaking, rotating about your waist instead of extending and bending your elbows. Be careful not to dislocate shoulders or injure spine.
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13. It helps a lot on 3 turns if you slowly and gradually rise towards your toe as you start the turn, and lower back down as you finish it. That takes a lot of core and leg strength. Practice doing all the turns above this way.

Strengthen yourself for this by all of the above, plus do two, then one foot slow toe raises and lowers off ice.

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wow!
thanks for the time you took on that post. I'm going to have to take some time to study this as some of the steps I can't really visualize. I'll let you know how it goes!

That 'swishing in front' is not a good thing - it should be a solid weight transfer, not a swishing motion at all - don't let her do it like that for too long - muscle memory will set in and she'll have a really bad habit to break. I've been there, done that on one of my back crossovers!

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I'd also have a coach look at it before changing it- a non-skater might see swishing in front when what is really happening is more of a pushing from the back.

(USFSA basic skills tends not to teach the stepping over on back crossovers at all- that seems to be an ISI thing. So swizzling in front is usually the first step, but still a beginner back crossover. The stepping over is roughly equal- it's not a baby crossover, but a different teaching method.)

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I can so relate to your daughter. My son (now 7) insisted I do learn to skate classes with him when he was younger. (He got to laugh at me a lot as he was so much better than I am and very soon was several grades ahead of me).

I failed inside 3 turns about 3 times - one of the coaches took off a glove and held one end while I held one finger of the glove and I could do them - (just so they show me that I could actually do them but was being a total wimp).

I did get comfortable with normal backwards skating because my dictator of a child made me go round and round the rink backwards while he pretended to be the crocodile from Peter Pan but - outside edges backwards were way scarier for me.

I have a huge phobia about falling (since a really bad horse-riding accident almost 20 years ago) and I think its a huge part of my own discomfort on ice. (I do leave skating to the kids now).

Unfortunately no real suggestions for your daughter - but - lots of empathy. I guess the best way to overcome a fear of falling is to do the scary thing over and over again...

Coach likes her back crossover. She said she is doing them correctly (something about edges...I don't remember if its outside or inside...but apparently she is on the correct edge). On the non dominant side she has to step over...she doesn't seem to have the coordination to do it the other way yet.

I'll have to tell her coach that trick!

That is how I learned to swim...My aunt popped my floater while I was swimming...by the time I was in deep water, no floater, I was just swimming with dead weight.

It took my DD almost a year to get 3 turns.. she had to take basic 4 3 times!!! Luckily she stuck with skating and eventually got it. the same thing held true with back crossovers, scratch spins, etc.. For a new skill it always seems to take her forever, but once she gets it, she really gets it.

I remember that her coach had her hold a scarf with each hand on each end so that her arms were up. Also, when you are not looking down at your feet, that also seemed to help.

I had trouble with three turns and still do when turning to my right on both inside and outsides. They are ok but not brilliant. When I was still nervous I was taught to stand with my back to the barrier in a corner and skate the outside edge into the rink, turn at the middle of the semi circle and glide on the back inside untial I came back to the barrier. I know it sounds daft but never being more than a couple of steps from the barrier made me feel safer and meant that no one was likely to bump into me, plus I could see the tracing and measure whether I was turning at the correct point. It just takes yonks of practice and remembering to get the arms in the right place.

Thanks for all your help!

She got her 3 turn and just in the nick of time. The next session started. It is really cool, the ice gets a little 3 in it! I think she should hold the back glide a little longer, but she holds it long enough to make that cute 3. So she made it into the Bridge program. Unfortunately all the other girls are in basic 6 and she is in 5. She can do all the elements in 5 except for the back crossovers going on the non dominant side. I don't think the coach is going to spend that much time on it because all the other girls have it. So any tips on how to improve that. When she does the crossover on that side, her body twist around out of the cross, if that makes any sense.

Thanks!

Ok to correct this bit with crossovers is in theory simple but needs a bit of practice. The secrets lie in bending the knees and getting the arms in the right position. Basically the arm nearest the inside of the circle needs to be back as if it was part of the circle and the arm furthest from the circle needs to be forward also following th line of the circle. Once she gets a bit of speed a lean into the circle will make them even easier.

Oddly enough, my 7 year old only begin to master 3 turns (after months of trying) when her coach decided to explain it in the way she does to her older skater: by discussing edges and entries, rather than "turn your body this way and hold your arms that way" language, or physical manipulation, which is more typically used with little kids it seems. Once the logic and edge sequences were expressed, the mechanics of the move came through.

Exactly. Have her do crossovers in a circle and imagine that she is skating around a huge ball that is as big as the circle. Tell her to hug the big ball the whole time, so that her chest is always facing the inside of the circle. It will also help for her to press down a little with the outside shoulder (that's the right shoulder if she is doing right-over-left crossovers, or the left shoulder if she's doing left-over-right crossovers). She also needs too keep her knees deeply bent and her feet far apart so she doesn't catch her blades on each other while crossing over.

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