Ok, so I read some people don't have much of a turn out. Neither do I!!! I was born with my hips turned completely in (so my feet were turned inward severely) and had to have casts on my legs when I was 2 until 3 to somewhat correct the problem. I started taking ballet in my 20's. Only a couple of years and now am taking it regularly to enhance my skating and I will admit, its totally helped me. I still lack turn out (best I have is at a 90 degree angle in first position). I used to tell my coach that because of my lack of turn out, I couldn't do mohawks correctly or choctaws(sp?). But she said that's hog wash. For those of you out there that truly feel your lack of turn out is inhibiting you from doing moves such as these, there is hope!!! I am now able to do the mohawks a lot smoother and am working on some other moves. Its all about how you transition from blade to blade, your body positioning, and keeping those darn knees bent between transitions! (for the mohawk). My coach taught me that lack of turn out doesn't effect the ability to learn MITF such as a mohawk even though they are more difficult to pick up. Its taken a LOT of work to get to where I am. (but who am I kidding, I am an addict to skating and challenges and spend tons of time at the rink) I am hoping down the road that I will be able to do a bauer. We shall see. Be hopeful and positive!!

Glad to hear you are making progress. I have no turn out to speak of for ballet type things, but okay turn out for a normal person. I will never do a spread eagle, but maybe a bauer.

Just make sure as you work on it NOT to turn out from the knees. Skating coaches seem to push that more than ballet instructors- and it is bad news.

But even with very little turn out a mohawk should be possible- it's all about the bend! (I also do my mohawks to my instep instead of blade end to blade end... that takes away some need for turn out)

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

But that's how mohawks are done - heel to instep. If somebody told you they should be blade end to blade end, they're wrong.

There's doing a mohawk or chocataws and then there's doing them to judges' standards. These are two very different things......Have you passed tests with these???

For moves tests, judges aren't wildly picky about the mohawks being perfect....in (very) general terms, moves tests are more about edges, power & quickness than nitpicking every little foot placement.....for that you need to be a dancer!

And yes, most of us don't have ballerina-type 180 degree turnout. It's totally about bending your knees through the turn which releases your hip flexors more so you can get the feet set. It's also partly an illusion--even choctaws--what *looks* like 180+ turnout is actually far less.

I've seen lots of people do them blade to blade. I was always told that doing them to the instep is an "option".


ETA: Hmmm- it's possible those "lots" all have the same coach.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Technically, it's supposed to be heel to instep. When teaching mohawks, I will occasionally show them the heel to heel version so that they can see what I'm doing. While it's not correct per say, I find that the concept of changing feet and changing direction is tough for a lot of kids.

__________________
Skating Dreams

"All your life you are told the things you cannot do. All your life they will say you're not good enough or strong enough or talented enough; they will say you're the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong type to play this or be this or achieve this. THEY WILL TELL YOU NO, a thousand times no, until all the no's become meaningless. All your life they will tell you no, quite firmly and very quickly. AND YOU WILL TELL THEM YES." --Nike

Here are the instructions from the Basic Skills Instructor's Manual:

"Forward inside open Mohawk from a stand still position, right & left: Stand in a T-position with the future skating arm forward and the future free arm held slightly behind. Step onto a forward inside edge. Prior to the turn, hold the heel of the free foot in a turned out and angular position and move it toward the instep of the skating foot, stepping within the width of the hips. After changing feet, balance on a backward inside edge with the arms and free foot held in a firm position to control rotation and balance. The edge into and out of the Mohawk will each be held for a distance equal to the skater's height."

My dance coach (a former Olympian in dance) also demonstrates them for me heel to instep.

Open mohawks are pretty doable. It's the closed mohawks that are .....difficult....if you don't have turnout. (At least I think so.)

Thanks everyone for explaining! That makes me very happy, because I've always felt like I was "cheating".


Pandora- could you explain what you mean by open and closed. I've heard the terms, but I'm not sure I understand them.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Pandora - taking lessons on any and all mohawks would benefit you tremendously.

I always teach the mohawks to the instep, and I usually have the skater bring the free foot forward first. That slight movement from front to instep, turning the toe out, is sufficient.

Skittl's right though - a lot of coaches (usually ones with great spreadeages) tend to teach the heel-to-heel. I think it looks awkward and the skaters really struggle to get that position. It's also dangerous because they can step on the heel of their blades.

__________________

I mean the mohawks where you step behind the foot (not to the inside edge.)
They are nasty, evil things.

Definition of Closed Mohawk from the Rule Book: "A mohawk in which the instep of the free foot is held at the heel of the skating foot until the free foot is placed on the ice behind the heel of the skating foot. Following the weight transfer, the immediate position of the new free foot is in front of the new skating foot."

That seems like instep to heel instead of heel to instep - neither of which requires a terribly great degree of turnout. Anyway, where are closed mohawks required on Adult MIF tests? (This is a serious question - I've passed Gold MIF, but that is the only Adult MIF test I've ever taken since I was already at Silver level when the Adult MIF structure was introduced.)

If they aren't on Gold, they aren't on the Adult MITF tests. I'm working on silver and the mohawk required is the outside mohawk in the 8-step, and that seems to be an open mohawk. On bronze is the inside open mohawk, and there are no mohawks on PB.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Yes, you are right. It is considered a pretty high level MITF. But I figure why bother wasting my time on the MITF if I can never get to my jump level? (Yes, I know, it will make me a better skater....Not going there.) But, yes, you are right. I don't believe it is on any of the adult tests.

So because you don't think you will ever get Junior MITF, you think it is a waste of time to even bother doing any of them?

Even getting to Juvenile (Silver/Gold-ish) MITF will open you up to a much more interesting (jump-wise) level to compete at then as a no-test skater.

Pandora, you should just be thankful figures are no longer required. Now that is tedious and HARD. MITF are at least do-able, and let you skate with SPEED- which if you like jumping should appeal

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Yes, if I am going to compete, (and can't get my event), then you are definitely right.

They certainly would be if no one's ever taught you the tips & tricks of how to do them, or the steps leading up to them before you're expected to just go out there & try it & hope for the best.

* Also, I believe what you describe is actually an open mohawk, on outside edges. Closed would be outside edge to outside edge, but the new foot still sets down in front of the skating foot. In moves the first time you encounter that mohawk is at Juvenile, for the 8 step mohawk sequence. The one you're describing, with the foot setting down behind, I don't think you ever get in moves. In dance you hit it at pre-silver in the Foxtrot.

Like this:
8 Step Mohawk Sequence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nu4U...eature=related

Instead of this:
Foxtrot (the mohawk happens in the corner at the end of each pattern)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAEunhy-ZFM

Oh, I thought Pandora was confusing mohawks and choctaws. It sounds like she's describing the Junior Choctaw pattern.
I like choctaws better than closed mohawks. Outside mohawks aren't really scary because of the turnout issue, it's the "can't see where I'm going" part that I find scary.

Closed mohawks are in the Senior MITF Quick Edge pattern and some dance patterns. (Nice demo by whoever the skater is in that video.)

In a closed mohawk, the skater steps down behind the skating foot onto the free foot. Once the foot change has been made, the skater's new free foot is held in a closed-hip position in front of the skating foot.

An open mohawk steps down to the instep (inside the tracing circle) and the new free foot extends in an open hip position behind the new skating foot.

__________________

Yes, I was thinking of the foxtrot mohawk. (Though I still think the outside to outside would be nasty for someone with closed hips.)

Outside to outside sucks. It is my current nemisis, but it's not due to turn out. It's due to my refusal to bend my knees. It doesn't require any more turn out than a regular inside mohawk

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I've never had issues with mohawks. I'm sure big open outside mohawks on some of the dances (Foxtrot, Starlight, Tango) would be easier if I were more flexible but I can do them just fine.

I don't "really" have issues with choctaws either when doing one in footwork or in a dance. I love riding the edges of the choctaw in the Blues. Where I (and most people without a ton of hip flexibility) run into issues is doing consecutive ones, like on the junior moves pattern. I have the most trouble is keeping my hip open enough to do the transition from the FI edge to the next BO edge. This is MUCH easier if you have turnout from the hips don't have to really, really work to keep the free hip open, but it's not impossible for people who don't, you just have to work harder and really focus on the turnout and extension. There are so many other nuances to getting them edgy.

That's like saying "gee I have really strong arms but I'll never be able to golf like Tiger Woods, so why bother trying to learn to play golf at all." Silly.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Ooh, my dance coach hates that - it's his current bugbear with my skating! He requires the Fourteenstep (outside closed) and Willow Waltz (inside closed) mohawks to be done on straight legs, heel to instep, which is hard with poor turnout. Love Foxtrot (outside open) mohawks because I'm allowed to bend my knees. I'm hoping I'll crack the technique one day...

__________________
"Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They may be summed up by the phrases:
(1) It's completely impossible.
(2) It's possible, but it's not worth doing.
(3) I said it was a good idea all along."
- Arthur C Clarke

You don't have to worry about it if you're not doing dance tests.

You don't need to do deep edges on the mohawk in the 8-step pattern as long as you maintain the general shape of the circle. Soft knees, steady rhythm, and decent power can make up for less-turned-out mohawks.

The bending the knees part made a HUGE difference in my mohawks! I was constantly "hopping" into it with a straight leg. NOT the way to do it.

But once I started doing the move off ice and attempting them the proper way with bent knees on ice, no hopping occurred and a smoother transition. I was really surprised at how much easier it was, too. So, from here on out, bent knees. keeping my upper body still, and just shifting shoulder pressures.

Oh, and I find going from FLI to BRI (correct me if I am wrong in describing this) Mohawks so much easier than the other way around. I am slightly more flexible with my left leg. And I can "wing" my foot better with that leg, too, in ballet. Ballet has been a huge factor in body positioning for everything skate related. Its kind of neat how the two can be tied together, even though one is on ice.

Also, Pandora, please try to keep the "why bother" comments out of this thread. Thank you. I'd appreciate it. Seems to get people stirred up, including me.