And that, my friends, is what I'm trying to push on!!!

Seriously, I did not get in this petition just so I can get out of doing my Bronze Moves and FS test!!! (See my lesson notes today!!!) If anything, I promised my coaches (who did sign the petition) that I will continue to work on those Bronze Moves and FS tests. I haven't asked Jay about why he supports it, but my secondary coach says "They might as well! It's not like they were making that much money at Dallas this year!" I hate for USFS to take away our Adult Nationals fun b/c of a "lack of interest." I want to go to Adult Nationals to skate and meet my online friends!!! I want to help the underwear phantom with her/his next caper! I want to be able to throw vodka nips at NoVa after his Silver men's program (or spike his Gatorade bottle.) And of course, I want to be able to show the rest of the adult skating community this secret Yanni program that I've been hiding pretty much since 2001. (But since FS Channel is here, you guys can go see it now!) You get the drift???

And if you guys are suggesting we meet at Peach Classic, that's fine and all, but I don't get to see the Midwestern Sectionals people. (Maybe except for the sporadic one or two of them.) Plus I usually don't start on new programs for Skate SF 'til about August (if I'm even competing at Skate SF this year...) b/c I'm too busy working on MOVES!!!

NoVa and you guys who are in non-qualifying but support the idea of a threshold for AN -- if you are trying to mimick standard Nationals, say bye-bye to your events!!! By your logic, only Gold and Masters level skaters should compete, b/c they're qualifying competitors for Nationals!!! By your definition, YOU did NOT earn the right to compete at AN... b/c you are NOT in a qualifying event!

And for some of us, a LOT longer! I think I've been working on Bronze Moves since 2002, so it's been about 4 years now!!!

Beachbabe... trust me. If your mom took up skating the same day and time as you, you might find yourself blowing her clear out of the water in terms of skating. We don't have a lot of time to dedicate to skate. We have to go to work (so we can afford our coaches, ice time, etc.) And since we're older, our bodies are more likely to break down, resulting in having to take time off from overuse injuries. And we still have responsibilities to take care of when we get home. We have chores to do around the house all the time, bills to pay, bills to maintain. Practice and perseverence is much more powerful than any physical barrier, yes, but it sure take a LOT longer with those physical barrier! A LOT longer!!! And being at it for over 4 years, I think you can see that I probably have a HUGE amount of perseverence. I'm still plugging at that Bronze Moves test, b/c my coaches keeps telling me "I'm real close to being ready to test" and "I'm so much better in my skating than the last time I took the test last October (and only had one judge pass me.)"

And oh, BTW, I do skate 8.5-9 hours a week!!! It comes to about 5 days a week... 2 of the days I skate at least 2 hours, 1 day 1.5 and two days at 1 hr. And of course, lots of repetition on those moves and exercises I do for secondary coach to *get* my Bronze Moves. Are you going to tell me that I've been lazy and don't practice enough? Or try hard enough?

MSF, trust me on this, dude!!! You came up in an incredibly quick amount of time from nothing to Bronze and eyeing for Silver. See above paragraph to see how often I skate and how long I've been working on Bronze Moves (and admittedly, despite all the time and practice I put into it, why it just does NOT happen!!!) Count your blessings that you've made it to Adult Nationals!!! Some of us are very envious of where you are in your skating life now.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Just a few comments...

-It's not the job of the petitioners to figure out a detailed and exacting plan for adding pre-bronze fs to AN. The purpose of the petition is to show some support for the idea so that the proper groups/committees in the USFS take up the item for discussion. If the adult committee and the GC were to approve it, I'm sure that there would be a sub-group of people to work on it. And that would probably happen in advance of any vote by anyone, ie., a reasonable and workable proposal would have to be put forth.

-We don't know at this point the exact financial implications of adding pre-bronze. rlichtefield had spoken of a break-even point but we don't know what that point is.

-skaternum, I didn't think you were being evil, just saying how I took part of your comments. I didn't like it, but that doesn't mean I have anything against you personally. Yes, we all have our right to our opinion.

-I do think it is somewhat insulting to suggest that the petitioners are doing this solely for themselves. Someone (sorry, I forget who) implied it by saying that by the time this would pass, that the petitioners would have passed their bronze tests anyway. The petition, and people who have signed it in support, does not relate to specific individuals, but rather to a class of people now and in the future.

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August 22, back on the ice!

Well, no; the pre-bronze test does not require "mastery." It requires an elementary sense of control and edges. To quote the judges' sheet: "The purpose of this test is to encourage beginning adult skaters to learn the fundamentals of ice skating. No great
deal of technical ability, carriage or flow is expected. Candidates must show knowledge of the steps, fairly good edges and some evidence of good form."

I have found that when people do not pass a test, they say that the judges were looking for perfection or mastery. Nonsense. When I finally passed my silver moves, they were far from great or mastered; they were "passable." Please don't throw in the term "mastered" just because you or someone else took a while to pass. That demeans the judging process IMHO and, in a way, detracts from your pre-bronze AN argument.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

well of course your coach(es) thiks you should go to AN. They make more money from you with lessons and such. Plus, they get to have a "student going to Nats."

Plenty of people went just to watch. You don't have to skate to enjoy AN. OK, I know, the primary point is to skate. But I had to throw that in there.

As I've often heard, STOP competing and just focus solely on moves. Competitions are a big distraction. Believe me, I've put gold moves on hold umpteen times--I passed silver moves/FS tests in Nov. '04. I think when someone says I've been working on moves for x number of years, they need to throw in a qualifying statement such as, "Oh yeah, I also compete and do exhibition shows. Again, I think it is disingenuous to say, "I have been working on moves for x number of year" because when you remove all the distractions/life crises, that might work out to be a year or so.

Maybe, but according to the USFS crossover rules, silver moves is equivalent to juvenile moves; gold moves, intermediate. Those 2 standard track levels comprise junior Nats. But as skaternum noted, the point is to model not mimic standard track.

You have often posted that you skate on crowded PUBLIC session (or am i wrong here?). I must say, that is not conducive to efficient training. OK, i'm done being difficult and grumpy (for now ). Time to leave the house and go to work!

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

I do like the idea that Adult Nationals is different from other available adult events. It is and should be something to work for. If the national judges which are required for a national event complain about the level of skating at current nationals, adding pre-bronze will only make it worse.
No offense to anyone - I just believe there should be a minimum level, bronze at least, to compete at AN.

And as far as the comment about those of "experienced" (not old) skaters passing the tests quite a while ago before the changes, they may have been slightly different, but remember that when we passed the tests the judges had NO experience or guidelines with adults. If you think they judge you as kids now, imagine what it was like then! Also, I'd put my Nats bronze skate in '97 up against any today.

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Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

I'm glad I kept reading before responding, because this is what I was going to suggest. I was chatting with a lady in Dallas who was there to support a friend, a Pre-Bronzer allowed to do Interp because she had passed her Pre-Bronze dance test. While I'm pretty sure she did place last, she did a nice job selling the program and had, IIRC, one fourth- and one sixth-place ordinal (out of eight). I personally thought she did a really nice job selling the program, especially since her skating skills were obviously lower than those of her competitors, and would have placed her somewhere around fourth or sixth myself.

As far as the 21-24 y.o. group not rasing the numbers, consider this: I skated in a Class I group of six skaters. Every one of us had to fly to Dallas. How many people in that age group (just out of college, many in grad school, young newlyweds, etc.) can afford to fly somewhere to compete AFTER paying a year's worth of skating bills? Had AN been held in an area with a higher concentration of skaters (Colorado, Michigan, New England, NY/NJ) I'm guessing we'd have seen more skaters in that age group (and probably all age groups). Don't get me wrong, I don't think AN should be held in these areas every year- I think it's great that adult skating got exposure in a place like Texas, where skating isn't as big as in other parts of the country, and it's always more fun to travel somewhere new- but I have a feeling that the numbers across the board would have been bigger elsewhere.

Edited to add, what do people think about allowing Pre-Bronzers to skate up to bronze at AN? That way we're not "excluding" anybody, but I don't know that many Pre-Bronzers would actually do it since most Pre-Bonzers aren't going to be competitive at Bronze. I'd be very interested in seeing where the break-even point Rob mentioned falls as far as start numbers and entry numbers.

I personally don't have a problem with AN's only being bronze and up. I can remember the early 1990's when the big issue was getting USFSA to take adult skating more seriously, give us a nationals, etc. We've made a TON of progress, but I think adding Pre-Bronze would result in some (not all) members of the skating community taking adult skating less seriously; I can already hear comments like, "Why don't we just add pre-pre to Nationals then?" (Not saying I feel this way, just that I think a fair number of people may, and that I'm not sure that's a good thing for adult skating overall).

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Shae-Lynn and Victor: We knew you were champions, and on 3/28/03 the whole WORLD found out! Thank you for twelve wonderful years!

I hear ya. I don't want to beat a dead horse about Dallas, just to say that I agree there are other cities where it would be fun to have AN at. Hopefully some of these other areas you mention with large contingents of adult skaters will put in bids for 2008 and beyond (Does Honolulu have a skating club? What about Vegas?)

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Whatever!

Sorry for not being clear on this. What I meant was that at Nationals, to compete at a certain level, you have to have passed the test for that level. You can't "skate up". As an example, say that I have a Gold level program and I have been competing at Gold in several local non-qualifying competitions, but I haven't actually passed the Gold test. If I want to compete at Nationals, I have to skate Silver because that's the highest test I have. No exceptions and no skating up. This is stricter than local non-qualifying competitions.

I wasn't trying to imply that the petitioners are responsible for pushing a rule change through. I was simply curious as to the intentions/goals of even having a petition. I was wondering what the next step was, or if the petition was just to get an idea of the feasibility of trying to get a rule change through and how much support there would be. I also just wanted to point out that there would be a whole lot more work required in trying to get pre-Bronze into Nationals.

I'm really sorry that you had that experience. I think that's horrible when judges behave that way. I hope you reported it to the club that was hosting the test session.

To the comments about removing Bronze and Silver events from Nationals because they are non-qualifying:


I dont Have a problem with that! Very few people watched my Bronze event anyway! I would work that much harder towards GOLD....Sure, it would be another 2-3 years before I could compete at Adult Nationals. I would still keep skating and keep doing local competitions till I got there. It would make it more special!

My original understanding was the tests were the qualifying rounds.

But my main thought is: We are already so limited in the adult realm (no axel till silver...no double till gold..now even no 2f or 2z till masters) now you want no free program test to qualify for nationals...I guess it will happen...frankly I dont see the point...Adult Nats(at least this first one for me) just felt like a larger competition...in fact I think I actually met more people and made better connections at Halloween then I did at AN!

I am rambling...I just feel we should keep the starting point at Bronze...The BronzeMIF/FREE tests are the first ones where there is a benchmark of 2.5 but I guess since they're not going to give us numerical scores even at AN then shouldnt all the tests be Pass/Retry. Whew...I am glad it is time for a vacation!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

Some comments...
I would agree with Skittl1321 in general, however regarding the PB free test, the difference is smaller than say for an adult vs. a kid trying to test the Intermediate FS test. The PB test is, as Nova and others pointed out, considered an encouragement test. I had a similar level of progress with the PB free test after about 3 months of lessons (@ age 28), so I would say Beachbabe is not way out of line in her perspective of progress at that level. The higher you go though, the more the adult-onset takes effect.
Fair enough, you have a good point. I was just pointing out the need for a plan because that's where I currently stand on the issue: somewhat against but willing to review numbers just to see what the effect would be. I think the petitioners would have their view strengthened with some of this data already in-hand but if the point is to just get it on the table, then ok.

I have the same reservations as flo and CanAmSk8ter, that we don't want to risk diluting the field and turning off the national judges. As I understand it, Dallas had trouble this year trying to get judges to come to AN, so adding PB could make that worse. I'm not saying that's right or fair of the judges to feel that way, but then again, if you don't have willing judges to come to AN, you don't have AN, so there you are. Also keep in mind that the whole mindset of taking adult skating seriously was a major push behind the Adult MIF movement, which as stated before was passed pretty easily a few years ago.

(Aside: ITA with doubletoe that MIF are important, which as I said is why I continue to train & test them. But at the time, I was against them being mandatory due to time/money concerns for adults. However I can't deny that MIF does help you with those ever precious in-betweens.)

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Whatever!

Feel free to substitute another word if mastery offends you, but the fact is, the judges do want to see that you've achieved a level of competency on the moves at the current test level before they'll let go on to the next level - that's the point of testing. I imagine it's difficult to know what quality of skating is expected on Pre-Bronze or Bronze MIF or how hard someone had to work to get those moves to a passing standard if you didn't take those tests and had firsthand experience with the way those moves are judged.

Actually, I passed the test the first time.

Well, isn't that a problem with the judges and USFSA, and not the skaters? It sounds like there need to be some changes made to how the judges view adult skating, through seminars or other avenues. Yes, I realize this has been an ongoing process since adult skating was created, but obviously there is more work to do.

I think there might be other reasons they had a hard time finding national-level judges to come to Dallas. First, it was at the end of a long Olympic season, so many judges were probably tired. Second, it was right after Worlds. Has there been a problem getting judges in other years when AN was later and in a non-Oly year?

You're not going to convince the National level judges that adult skating is serious competition by arguing that the pre-preliminary equivalent should count as qualifying for a National competition. (And even if you changed pre-Bronze around, you'd still need an encouragement test, and there's always going to be people caught on the bubble.)

Really, it comes down to a) the purpose of adult skating and b) the purpose of the USFSA's involvement in adult skating. If the purpose of adult skating is just for fun and exercise and camaraderie, and that's certainly a large part of it, then MiTF, testing levels, etc, shouldn't matter at all. But then there seems to be no reason for USFSA to be involved at all. (Major League Baseball doesn't sponsor weekend softball tournaments.)

I guess I look at it like this. My sister trains for a marathon. It's her first, so she's going to an open course, and there's no time limits or restrictions. What she can't do yet is enter the Boston Marathon. She works hard! She trains! But to enter the Boston Marathon you have to have qualified with a certain time. And no amount of pointing to her practice schedule makes her run faster. Or claiming that lots of people run the Boston marathon for fun, and excluding people makes it less fun.

Now, I'm decided on where pre-Bronze should fall in all of this, but it's not like other sports don't have to deal with it.

I also wanted to second beachbabe. I started at 24, and I had the freestyle pre-Bronze down very quickly, in about 5 months. Moves took me a bit longer, but it seems weird to think that 'qualified for Nationals' means 'took group lessons.'

I realize pre-Bronze competitiveness is a lot higher, but to *qualify* by taking the test doesn't really require much.

Yes, it is a problem with judges and USFS, and while I would like to think that these attitudes would change via seminars, I've come to be more cynical about that over the years. At my club, it's known that many judges mark the Adult MIF tests as if they are grading from a standard-track perspective (even though they are supposed to allow for adult-onset concessions on certain moves).

I didn't realize we had judges doing both Olympics/Worlds and AN's. Any idea who they were? I'd like to see if they were on my panel.

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Whatever!

ITA with pretty much everything crayonskater said in her/his most recent post.

Also this:
While I have advocated the "PB at AN implies a tougher PB free test" philosophy, crayon is correct here. And then what happens? Do we have a PRE-pre-Bronze level? Would those skaters subsequently clamor to be included in AN? Where does it stop?

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Whatever!

*raises hand* I'm in grad school. 26. The only reason I can afford this sport at all: the university owns the rink. I can squeak out one $35 lesson a week.

I'm not testing (though I'm thinking of starting a serious moves track) and have no plans to compete because the costumes, plane flights, etc. would cost more than I can afford -- it would mean not buying my sisters Christmas presents or skipping a friend's wedding.

For a sport I do for fun and exercise, it's not worth the expense. It might be in the future, but you know, there's also starting a family, new jobs, etc.

Ummm, I should point out that my secondary coach does NOT go to Adult Nationals. Her focus is on her teenager girls. She's not make money off of me going to Adult Nationals. And it also doesn't impact my NYC coach either, who ALSO signed the petition. The guy sees me once or two a year!!! As for my primary coach... up 'til recently, he was also a competitor at AN. I was actually concerned whether I would get his support for this more than anyone else, actually. It depended on whether I sent him the petition whether I was addressing "Jay the Masters Men skater" or "Jay the coach."

Yeah... that IS the point!!! Next point...

Ummmm... Nova... except for this year...I have competed maybe ONCE a year for 2.5 years (Oct 2004, Oct 2005 and March 2006) at Skate SF and recently at Sectionals! THAT'S IT!!! I've used the SAME PROGRAM for 2.5 years, so the training time for it was maybe 1-1.5 month a competition. (Sectionals was actually 2 WEEKS!!! I know... you're gonna kill me for telling 'ya that I hardly practiced my program prior to the comp, but now you know why.) And what do you think I was doing when for all 2002 and 2003 and the rest of the time I wasn't preparing for a comp? Have you guys wondered why I didn't go to Peach Classic the past few years and have no intentions to go this year? (Yes, money is a factor too, but so was spending enough time for Bronze moves. It just didn't fit into my overall training time.)

I had mentioned a few times that this Sectionals will be my last competition until I pass Bronze Moves. I have kept my word so far. I've had at least a couple of local competitions come thru that was after Sectionals and I immediately shot it down and said "Nope! I'm testing Bronze Moves!" I have no plans to compete at Skate SF either, unless I pass my Bronze FS by then.

First thing, the type of stuff I have to work on does not need a big amount of space to work on. (Getting a proper mohawk, working on good pushes and edges on forward and back crossovers (can be done in hockey circles), practicing the choctaw from the back crossovers to a strong FO edge, fixing that 4th step on the 5 step mohawk (also can be done on hockey circle or line.) Second thing: do you get to skate midday afternoon during the school year? I do!!! Third thing: Around late April to about October, my weekend rink isn't as crowded. Last thing, except for this current gig, my job requires me to work late nights and weekends as well as normal business hours. I am NOT a morning person b/c of that. (Didn't you guys read enough of my being a figure skater on a software geek's schedule?) Oh, and when I'm not working at my job and I don't have access to a skating rink, guess where I am? AT THE GYM working on cardio (45 min), strength training, pilates and yoga!!! (Okay, I'm not there as long as you, NoVa, but most of us think you should have a sleeping bag at the gym anyway.)

I can dish out grumpiness as well as you can, NoVa. I have at least 5 years of grumpiness to unload. But in the end, it doesn't serve me any purpose. I'd rather stay focused and keep pushing.

what I'm suggesting is...you don't! You don't use that "code"! You give them the chance to go ahead and do a program at Adult Nationals too and get that experience in doing a program in front of a large crowd and manage it thru there. (Yes, the job hunting "Catch-22" I was talking about.)

Look you guys. I know you guys have strong objections here for this and I'm certainly NOT asking you to support this petition. As far as I am certain, if you don't support the petition, DON'T SIGN THE PETITION!!! It's as simple as that!!!

I am asking you to be sympathetic and supportive (and not mean spirited) of those who are trying very hard to pass their Bronze tests. They worked very hard and have put in a lot of time, effort, personal sacrifice, and have dealt with a lot of issues outside of the rink, (family death, long unemployments, etc.) for it like you have. Be there as encouraging, caring and helpful (w/o being imposing of course) a friend as you possibly can to help them towards the goals that you've already accomplished. And if you can't be that person, do them a favor and let them know "I'm sorry! I can't be sympathetic towards your Pre-Bronzers" and step away from them. Leave them alone!

I'll close (for now ) by saying being at Adult Nationals IS very special! And no matter what level you are skating at, NO ONE can take away the accomplishments you have earned being at AN. NO ONE!!! And THAT is what matters in the end!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I think you and TerriC are confusing some things. I cannot speak for everyone who opposes Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals (hereafter referred to as PBatAN), but I can say that I AM supportive of pre-bronzers trying to pass their tests. I've always tried to be encouraging to you guys and pre-bronzers at my rinks. That is in NO WAY related to my feelings about PBatAN. You guys seem to be interpreting our lack of support for a concept as lack of support for people. Nothing could be further from the truth. We've all been at the bottom rung of the testing ladder, trying to make our way up it. We understand that you're struggling and working as hard as you can. We applaud you for your tenacity. But we just don't agree with the concept of PBatAN. It isn't personal, and we wish you'd respect our right to hold an opposite opinion without seeing us as antagonistic to pre-bronze skaters. It ain't personal.

Everyone is being supportive of people working hard! No one's said you're not. To extend my marathon analogy, I'm supportive of my sister's running, but I'm not going to petition the Olympic committee to allow her to represent the U.S. in Beijing. Even if she is training while getting a master's, and wasn't a runner as a child, that's neither here nor there.

And it doesn't matter the family death, long unemployments, cost, pregnancy, etc. That shouldn't factor into testing or eligibility any more than someone's job schedule or financial ability. That's life, and if life keeps you from testing Bronze and going to Nationals in 2007, or qualifying for a marathon, or testing your black belt, *nothing* has taken away the accomplishments you already have.

But it does affect the need for the USFSA to be involved (and it may make it less special if 'able to go to Adult Nationals' essentially means 'finished learn to skate'; it's not like it gets a lot of respect from the standard track anyway), and what you want is a big adult skating festival, that sounds like a lot of fun, but not something the national governing body needs to worry about.

I competed once at an ISI event and I'll probably never compete again but I wanted to address one thing -

Those of you questioning "where do you draw the line" - allowing pre-pre-bronze, or pre-silver or pre anything ....those categories of adult skaters don't exist. Pre-bronze skaters DO exist. Discussing the allowance of fictitious USFS adult skate categories is nonsense and holds no weight in the debate as far as I'm concerned. Pre-bronze skaters work just as hard training for competitions and if they have the courage to go to Nationals so I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed. Not enough ice time? So they add an extra day, or find a way to work it out. Almost anything can be worked out if given enough notice, which at this point they have - my guess is that hardly anyone would even notice the addition of pre-bronze events in terms of scheduling if it's addressed early enough.

Lastly, would adding in pre-bronze skaters REALLY impact the integrity of the event? If so, I'm curious to know how? Aren't we all skaters, no matter the level? It's a national competition, I get that - but after its all said and done it's an adult national competition and from my understanding the majority of the people that go to nationals do so to have fun anyway and the atmosphere is light and friendly while still remaining competitive. If nothing else its a good experience for pre-bronze skaters that want to compete at higher levels as well where the pressure is even greater.

Maybe I don't understand because I've never gone to nationals, or because I've never tested...it just seems like the people against pre-bronze skaters being added to fold are more advanced skaters who might be a teeeeeeeny bit put off that no such event was there when they were skating at that level. I might take some flack for saying it, but just callin it like I see it.

Jazz, this implies that you're suggesting that no-test adults be included in AN too. Am I interpreting correctly?

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Where are those knives when I need them?
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I need a detachable left foot!

Not necessarily. We could have one standard... and that's that they'd be members of the USFSA (in good standing) and they've at least tested and passed one adult moves and FS skate level. But I also am open to combining no-test with Adult Pre-Bronze FS if even with adding on pre-Bronze FS we don't get the numbers attending AN. We get plenty of no-test skaters around here that actually skates better than some of the Pre-Bronzers here, actually....

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but from your previous posts on this thread, it sounds like you've never tested. Assuming that's true, I don't know how you can make assumptions about what taking the test entails. Your coach may have told you your moves are passing, but until you actually go through the testing process, I don't think you can say with certainty how easy it is to pass a particular test. My coach has been coaching for 30 years and thought my Bronze moves were passing level when I tested, and she couldn't believe how harsh the judges were (I'm from dcden's neck of the woods).

Most adults at AN started out in group lessons, then moved on to private coaches when they decided they wanted to test and/or compete. If you want to pass Pre-Bronze MIF and FS, you need to do a whole lot more than take group lessons.

There's no need for sarcasm. I know of at least one nat'l judge from my area that judged at AN and went to Worlds (it was in an article on Kimmie). He did not judge at Worlds - I assumed judges have meetings or seminars or something there, even if they're not judging...or maybe he just went as a spectator. I imagine other judges went to Worlds and/or Olys if not for a judging reason than b/c they are skating fans and wanted to watch the comp. Having AN so soon after a major event may have had an effect - after all, judges are volunteers with lives outside of skating. That's why I asked if there had been a similar issue last year when AN was later.

Here's your flack. You have no idea what you're talking about. That level didn't even exist when I started competing. But thanks for joining in the efforts to discredit the opposition by calling us names or questioning our motives.

I haven't tested, true. (I was talking about the program components, though, not the moves, and Pre-Bronze program components were taught in group lessons.) I trust my coach, and I know roughly how long it took me to get there. I'm not saying it's not an accomplishment, because I'm proud of how far I've come; I'm just saying that it's an encouragement test by the USFSA's requirements and one that doesn't even require a program. And if we change pre-Bronze so it has a program, there will probably have to be introduced another encouragement test.

sunshine, I get your point, but I wasn't trying to make some slippery slope argument. No matter if we decide that pre-Bronze should get in, there's always going to be a large, active adult community that would be interested in the camaraderie and the fun but not yet qualified. My point was simply that the question is really the role of Adult Nationals in adult skating, not anything specific to pre-Bronze.

Maybe the Bronze test needs to be re-evaluated if there's a large group of people stuck on it for 5-6 years.