Hi,
I need to know if this is true. But first some background. DD competed in her first 2 competitions (about 6 weeks apart) The first was at basic 3 and she placed last (4th out of 4). The second was at Beta and she placed 3rd out of 4. Mum, who is from communist block, thinks dd will be dumped (more as in the coach will give the better times to her better students and if there is anything left over then she'll be in line) by her private coach because it reflects badly on the coach to have losers as thier students. At this level does this happen? On the boards everyone says that its not about placement but improvement. You can pm me I think. Please be truthfull, I can take it.
Thanks

Absolutely not. This isn't the Russian Soviet sports system, and no one expects anything out of a Basic 3 skater other than to manage to not throw up on the ice.

A coach may drop a student who has a bad attitude, doesn't care/isn't motivated, unmanageable temper, overshadowing/abusive parents, things like that. Low placement at a basic skill competition isn't even on the radar.

At that level, coaches are all about encouragement. I placed last in my Basic 5 comp last year and here I am this year doing a Freeskate 2 comp and my coach already has music and a program set up, I'm beginning privates this week. She certainly has no shortage of skaters taking lessons, either.

Any ethical coach will give lessons on a first come, first serve basis. If the Freestyle 9am-9:30am slot is open, then whoever first schedules a lesson in that time will get that slot, no ethical coach would drop the basic skater when the advanced star skater complains about wanting that slot when the Basic skater beat them to it at scheduling lessons. Some coaches do refuse to accept a new skater, however, if they're just simply too busy.

Coaches who only coach winners tend to have other coaches they work with who take the not chosen. I know quite a few coaches like this, it's not just a Russian thing.

I don't think this is a worry you need to have. Any coach who does this sort of thing (drop a student for lack of success) would not be coaching basic skills students to begin with.

Your coach may stop giving the student "good" times if they stop working hard, but not due to placement in Basic skills competitions.

(That said, if this coach has national level skaters- expect them to get priority in lesson time over basic skills- first come first serve isn't necessarily true. Coaches will give priority to the students taking 7+ lessons a week to those taking 1 or 2.)

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I assume you're in the US, even if your thoughts are stuck behind the iron curtain. No coach really likes to "give up on" a student, unless there are issues other than competition placement. Dropping a skater with the excuse of "Not being able to fit someone in" will only happen if the skater is unreliable (cancels lessons often, usually at the last minute), doesn't practice, isn't cooperative, or has a helicopter parent that second-guesses the coach constantly. It's an opportunity for the coach to take a break from a stressful situation, but poor finishes aren't a cause, afaik.


If your family is reliable, pays bills on time and everyone gets along well, the coach would want to keep her as a student. Younger, lower-level skaters are a vital part of a coach's income. Even a coach with high-level skaters has to be aware that a growth spurts, injury, attitude, illness, financial crunch, moving, etc. can cause a four-lesson/week student to stop taking lessons. Coaches only get paid if they teach. It's important to have what is generally called a "pipeline" of developing skaters as well as up-and-comers.

The main coach might not have as much time this summer if the ice schedules are short, but the skater can continue to progress with a co-coach. Schedules shift again after summer's over, so that could change again.

Has your coach said that DD is doing poorly, or are you overreacting about your DD's placements? In Basic Skills and ISI, it's just about the experience of skating, the placements don't mean a thing. Your DD's coach is NOT keeping track of good/poor performance, although she probably made some notes on things to do during the lesson plans. Based on her willingness to have your DD skate ISI, she's just looking to give her some experience in getting out in front of a crowd.


In this case, those students you're calling "better skaters" are probably higher level (than your DD) skaters that have more lessons/practices each week. You should really reign in the talk of "better skaters." The best skaters are the ones who are cooperative and willing, with parents who are supportive of both the skater and the coach. Those parents know when to back off and let the coach do their job.

Since this is summer, those higher-level skaters need to take more lessons and skate more because they're probably working on their programs for the Fall. Skaters who usually take two lessons per week might increase to four.

It's easier to schedule the skaters who need the most lessons first, then fit everyone else in around them. Think about it: if your DD was taking four lessons each week, they would be useless if they were all on the same day. That's just too much for one day; the third or fourth half-hour would be wasted because the skater hasn't had time to practice anything.

It's like packing a car: start with the biggest suitcases, then fit the smaller ones around it.

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I've seen coaches do the co-coaching thing a few others have mentioned too, where they have a few younger and less experienced coaches under their wing who work with the lower level (and therefore usually younger) skaters. My own coach does that with a few other coaches, most of them younger and former students of his, who work "under" him. I think it works out well because he pretty much trains these coaches, so they have someone helping their career development and helping them gain students. It makes scheduling everyone easier (if he can't fit a student in or schedules don't work, he can shift that skater to another coach or have another coach fill in if something comes up). They set up off-ice classes and other things together, and they actually have an LLC set up where all their payments go for tax purposes.

It's nothing against the skater if he shifts them to another coach and has nothing to do with competition placement, sometimes schedules work out better with one of them, the skaters' personality is a better fit for one of the other coaches, or a lot of times, it's a way for them to get in the lesson time they want if he can't do it all. Sometimes it's an easy way to split lessons--I've noticed one of the girls does a most of the choreography and works programs, while he'll work on jump/spin technique when he works with the same skater. Or if the family is having financial issues, shifting the student to a coach who charges $9/15 min lesson versus one who is at $15 can make a big difference. Except there are some skaters that only he handles (myself included--I actually grew up and am friends with 3 of his 4 co-coaches so that would just be weird taking from them).

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I was quite happy with the placement because hey her first comp she was dead last and now she did better to place one higher. Mum (Ukraine) does not think this way, only gold is good. And the girls she competed against (including the one that placed last), this is thier third year competing there so thay were skating at least 3 years. DD has been skating, not even competing, for a little over a year.

The coach seemed happy with her but I don't know how much of that is marketing.

Well of course some of it is marketing- the coach wants you to keep your daughter in skating. Coaches can't pay their bills if they don't have students.

However, I would bet that your coach is genuinely happy that your daughter went out there and skated, and did her elements well and had fun. The placements REALLY don't matter at that level.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

falen, in case you don't know this, some basic skills competitions don't even use real judges--they use coaches, skaters, and in some cases, any willing body who's available!

While basic skills competitions play an important role in developing skaters & helping introduce them to the world of competition, I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH how very, very, very UNIMPORTANT they are in terms of placement or having anything to do with what the future holds for a skater as far as competitive success goes.

You said there were 4 people in the competition, well someone has to come first and someone else has to come last. That's the purpose of a competition. And it doesn't matter who you are, you are very very unlikely to win every event you enter. Coaches know and appreciate this. Some kids win all their competitions early on, and then falter as the standards get tougher, others take a little longer to learn to perform, get over stage fright, or just get the hang of the skating.
Your DD's coach should have been watching your DD's performance at these two competitions and seeing whether she can see an improvement there. Unless she had the same 3 other people in both competitions, you can't really read much into the placements. If they were the same other people and she's gone from 4th to 3rd, then she's improved, otherwise it's all subjective and the coach is best placed to spot the improvements.
Perhaps it's worth having a chat with the coach and seeing how she feels your DD did in these competitions and then feed this back to your family. Skating is very different from other sports in that it is so subjective.

I'm no coach or parent but at this point I feel the need to chip in, as someone with first-hand experience in the eastern block mentality and just what pressure on winning it puts I should point out that your mother's attitude, if not mitigated by yours, will possibly poison your daughter's future skating life. Children are very susceptible to the pressure put on them by the people whose opinions they value most (parents and caretakers that are close) and you don't want your kid freaking herself out over what granny thinks and performing poorly because of that or, worse yet, quit all together (I was very good and talented at piano playing, but the pressure caused me to black out on stage once and after I simply couldn't perform anymore, my hands were shaking, so I quit. I don't regret quitting since there is no real money in music anyway - other careers are much more financially advantageous and I never had intentions to make my career out of it even when I was 13 - but it is a bit of a shame that all of my potential enjoyment of my talent was poured down the drain just because a private tutor and some family felt the need to turn up the pressure.)

More over, unlike in the former Soviet union where sports were very sponsored by the state and those who were fairly good could make a living out of them, in western society skating only costs money, a LOT of money. Save for the few lucky ones who make it to the olympics and the few coaches (who are most probably making less than if they went and got a degree and worked in some other field) it yields no real economic gain - and, with the few winners compared to the millions skating, you've probably got a better investment/chance of returns ratio with the lottery. Not to mention the price of sport at a top level is very often poor health and even disability further on in life (google tara lipinski for a nice example of what happens if one wants too much too fast), something that no good grandparent wants for their grandchild, imho. "Going for gold", from an economical and mathematical point of view makes very little sense, the only reason to skate is for one's personal gratification. If your daughter is enjoying herself, that's what matters.

Another something to consider - Irina Slutskaya said in an interview she "never" won a competition before the age of 14, always placing "somewhere in the middle"

By "Mum," do you mean YOUR mother or YOURSELF? I thought you were talking about yourself up until this post.

If we're talking about your mother, you've said that she's unreasonable about "nothing less than superstardom" with a doom-and-gloom attitude. She knows NOTHING about figure skating in the US, which is a completely different system than the Ukraine under the USSR Sports System. (Actually, I suspect she was passed over when they were picking candidates, which is part of her nasty attitude.)

Why would you let her put any doubt in your own mind about your child, especially after so many board members have given you so much support and guidance?

You're never going to change her, so just let these nastygrams fall on deaf ears and tell your daughter not to listen to her vile put downs.

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Mum lives with us since she is a widow. It's kind of hard to keep the attitude away. Some may have read my other posts relating to this and I've had to do damage control in the past with regard to DD thinking she should be better by now.

I'm sorry about your experiences Sessy. I went to one piano competition and got silver and well that was also the end of piano for me

It's definitely a cultural thing. DD friend (chinese) looks like he's about to have a breakdown every time he goes to school because he always has to perform at the top (test, bees, fairs) or get in trouble. This is also what I know, growing up that way too and I really just needed some reassurance that its not like that here in US.

Falen, it might help to understand the heirarchy/ladder of levels of comptetition for skating.

You daughter has not yet entered the 'official' world of USFSA competition, which starts at Pre-Preliminary. From there, the levels are:

Pre-preliminary
Preliminary
Pre-juvenile
Juvenile
Intermediate
Novice
Junior
Senior

Among those levels, the competitions are only at the local level until you hit Juvenile--which is when you can enter qualifying competitions to earn your way to Junior Nationals, and, once you hit Novice, Senior Nationals.

So until then, though the competitions may be bigger, the results really aren't all that important and are still for the skater to be developing their ability, presentation, nerve control, etc.

So--you are a long, long, LONG way from a competition meaning anything beyond how well YOUR SKATER skated that day--was it to the best of her ability? Did she land all her jumps? Did she 'sell' the program w/ her presentation? Those are the things that matter for now.

Juvenile level is double jumps and high level spins. It will be a long road from Basic 3 to Juvenile, so your family needs to settle down & realize that she is at the very beginning of that journey, and give her a break!

Yes to all your questions. And her coach says that she seems to "bring it" for competitions and show. Both times she has skated better than in practice and for her one show too. IE her spiral was alway barely parallel, but for the show she really reached and it got higher than we've ever seen it. Well then coach would not let her get away with wimpy spirals in practice anymore!

But really it gets really hard to try to focus on the positive when at home its all about "results".

Perhaps you could find a nice studio apartment for your mother, then... It is not very common for parents to live with their children in the western world, tbh. I appreciate that if your mother is also your child's babysitter, the problem has no immediate solution. Perhaps your child is old enough to be talked to about how grandmother's perspective is not yours and that she should pay less attention to her expectations and continue on as she has before.

Duct tape works well too, but you have to make sure you don't get it in grouchy-gramma's hair, because it will hurt when you pull it off to let her eat...

Really, just tell the old wheeze-bag to shut up - if she can't say anything nice about her grand-daughter, then she is to say nothing at all. Here in the US, parents have all the legal rights to raise their children, and grandparents have barely any rights at all. Maybe Grandmother-from-h*ll doesn't know that yet? She doesn't have to live with you if you don't want her to!

Remember that your child is completely dependent on you, and you are legally responsible for raising her in the best, nurturing, safe environment possible. On the other hand, you do not have that legal responsibility for your mother.

I've had to have a similar talk with my mother - she tried to put down how my children dressed (clean, comfortable, a bit baggy) etc. Whenever they did something wrong, it was all my fault. It was unpleasant to be around her. So, we stopped visiting, and when she asked why, I told her that she wasn't nice to be around, and why would I want to drive an hour each way to be scolded and discouraged?

It worked, she 'got a new attitude', along with an anti-depressant, and we have a great relationship (most of the time). But all that bickering in the past has turned the kids off, and they do not enjoy their gramma as much as they could.

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I told my kids my mother was nuts, and to ignore her; shared how much she hurt my feelings and drove me crazy when I was a kid; and emphasized that she must be shown respect, but, not at all her opinions.

It became a game: how many nasty things did Grandma say today? We discussed it afterwards, and pulled the stings out. It became a conspiracy: let's jolly Grandma along. And, we also enlisted a very scary coach who basically told Grandma that the kid was doing great, worked hard, was a positive skater, and that anyone who said otherwise had to deal with HER (I love our coach). Shut Grandma right up ... being told by an expert that everything was fine carried far more weight than my undoubtedly wrong opinion !

Moving is not an option. She is financially able to support herself under normal circumstances, but to live alone a hired help would be needed and that she does not have the resources for and neither do I and DH. She does not qualify for public assistance, but does not also have enough to go it alone with a helper. Even if DD drops skating and goes to public school (aka Inmate Vocational in our area) it still would not be enough, pooled my and her money, by a hundred or so a month.

I know Mum loves us, she just grew up under different standards and different time as there is an entire generation missing between us. She is as old as my friend's grandmothers would be. I really just wanted to make sure that training "results" as she like to put it are different now and here than they were then and there.

You already know that, you've posted similar questions and gotten the same "This is not the USSR" replies, so just ignore your mother's out-of-touch remarks.

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Perhaps take your mother to the rink and introduce her to the coach and get the coach to explain what she's expecting from your DD. Maybe having the professional explain the sport and how it's run in the US would help your mother understand the differences between how things are now and how they were when she was growing up. (Did she skate and so is speaking from her experiences, or is this her perception of how things were? If she never skated competitively it might mean the coach talking to her would nail all this on the head.)

Getting a scary coach that says "come through ME!" is genius!

One of the things about skating in the USSR was how much it was "made easy". If you were a skater in the USSR, that was all you were, even as young as eight or nine when you really can't tell yet. You did go to school (only until noon though), but the teachers were made to understand that it was not acceptable to give you bad grades no matter how badly you performed academically, because skating came first and foremost and school was just something you did not to be completely illiterate. A girl who was doing national level sports at my mom's school couldn't solve a single problem on her math finals (even though she was asked questions of the level of fifth grade!) and they still passed her because it was clear she was going to become a professional athlete and/or coach or general sports teacher after and not an academic of any kind, that basically, she'd not be without job even if her sports career didn't work out. This is nothing like skaters these days - even those who homeschool still have to pass the normal standards of schooling and won't be served a diploma on a silver platter, and have to think about what they will live off in the future as professional sports are nothing of a certain future. Their attention is necessarily divided. As for questions of finances, training facilities and the different coaches, doctors, teachers working on the promising athletes, let's not even go there.

Expecting the same performance under different circumstances is not realistic.

A formerly-Russian coach once told me Americans (she meant people in the USA, no offense intended) had it too easy, and were too lazy.

She said that back in the USSR (or CCCP), the lessons were free, but only 10% of each class was allowed to go on to the next level class. So everyone worked hard. And only an elite few were allowed to go beyond the first few lessons. Recreational level skaters often couldn't find lessons at all.

No doubt quite a few kids who were a year late to develop never had a chance.

The old USSR sports system was clearly very good as producing some of the very best internationally competitive athletes. But I suspect most young athletes in most countries are now encouraged to regard sports more as a fun activity than as a long term profession. There are many other professions more likely to produce a reliable acceptable income.

Perhaps you could tell grandma that your DD will explore other more probable options to make a living, and will enjoy skating better without excessive pressure. Perhaps you have already tried. You know, sometimes it is hard for children to understand the accents of ancestors who came from other geographic areas. Perhaps you can encourage your DD to fail to understand that which she doesn't wish to hear? Much less abusive than duct tape! Of course, she will try the same trick on you.

I've known some coaches here in the U.S. who dropped their less competitive students. I've also known some of their very unhappy former students who were dropped. Such practice is not very popular with skaters here. Only a few elite coaches manage to get away with it. I think most teachers, including most coaches, try very hard to help the less successful students too, and are proud of their abilities to do so. You can safely tell grandma that we have these strange and different customs here.

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