Good for them. They've earned it. They skate at a higher level as a result. What exactly is the problem?

Do you really believe that none of us in our 20's have any back or knee issues? My back would strongly disagree with you. And I know that stardust has only recently recovered from a number of injuries that kept her off-ice for a while.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it's the fault of attitude and determination, not age; though most often attitude and determination diminish with age.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

There are very significant differences in the way adults and children learn, based on the way we store information in the brain. Learning a new skill requires the development of new neural pathways in the brain, and it has been definitively demonstrated by MRI studies that the pathways are developed in entirely different ways by adults vs. children. You can argue the "use of age as an excuse" theory all you want, but the proof is well documented and well-known in the medical and rehabilitation fields. There will always be the fairly rare exception of someone who develops higher level skills as an adult, but the difference of the skater who skates at age 5 for 5 years compared to the adult who skates for 5 years, even at the same training level, still be obvious.

Skaternum and NoVa pretty much said everything I wanted to (thanks guys! ) but I'll add just a bit.

First, most skaters who start skating as kids don't reach the point where they can land double axels or triple jumps - many drop out before testing and competing at the higher levels, and many reach a point where they just test but not compete anymore. That's why those who can consistently land 6 or 7 triples in a program are considered elite .

With all due respect, this is quite naive. As I noted above, most kid skaters training 10-15 hours a week don't reach that point; why would you think that an adult who only has 4-6 hours a week to train would accomplish that? Not to mention the physical differences between adults and kids that have already been mentioned. All of the determination in the world is not going to overcome the obstacles I and others have alluded to - it's just a fact.

And a 25 year-old who started skating at age 5 may be the same age as a 25 year-old who started skating at 20, but they are definitely far apart in skating skill. I think that's the point of this thread.

Attitude and Determination Diminish with Age?


Yeah, I'm seeing red here! I've seen much more determination in older skaters than in younger ones. And attitude? How can attitude diminish? What's a diminishing attitude look like?????

My skating coach explained it quite nicely to me once (after I wiped out on a side to side toe jumpy thing) "Kids just haven't developed the common sense to realize that skating can be painful" Or did she use the word "deadly"...

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blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.

I definitely think that people who skated as kids have an easier time than adult-onset skaters.

I can use myself as an example here: I skated seriously from about age 8-14 years of age, in an elite training center (of the '60s). I passed a few tests, dance and figures, learned some jumps and spins, had a program. The basics, really, were all laid out for me.

I was NOT a good skater. I was one of those run-of-the mill kids who never really accomplished much, but I learned a lot and had fun with it. I trained with people who went to the Olympics, so there was definitely pressure.

Then I took 20 years off and came back to learn ice-dance. Now 17 years later I continue to skate, enjoy it, take lessons, go to dance sessions, etc. I am considered a pretty good skater for an adult. My adult-onset friends admire my edges, turns, posture and relative ease on the ice. I am comfortable on the ice, like stardust said in her post.

I am also not really very athletic nor adventurous. I am quite certain that I could never have learned to skate had I not skated as a child, and wouldn't have even considered doing it.

I skate because it's something I know how to do. I totally admire people who start as adults, but recognize that maybe they are not quite as comfortable on the ice as I am.

I may not jump or spin anymore, but I sure do love to skate!!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I've been doing LTS for 3 1/2 years, plus private lessons. ALL of the kids that started at the same time as I did are well ahead of me. Is it because they skated more? Probably. But, did they work as hard as I did? Probably not.

Then coaches tell kids to do something, they do it. When my coaches tell me to do something, I ask questions (after the initial "are you trying to kill me?") Where is my weight supposed to be? Where are my arms?....you get the picture.

Most kids probably start when they are active and fit. I was 38 and an overweight couch potato. I've lost 35+ pounds, with about the same still to go. Do most of the kids have that problem?

When kids fall, if they get hurt, they may miss some school. When I broke my ankle, I missed 4 days of work, some of it unpaid. Luckily, my manager was able to shift my job, because there is no way I could be an Operating Room nurse on crutches. Is that a kid issue?

This is a never-ending discussion, and we all just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, my most difficult jump is a waltz-half toe loop.

Bingo. This is exactly the point that I'm getting at. "Diminishing attitude" may be a poor term for those who want to nitpick, but this is exactly what I meant by it. We usually don't trust enough to take blind leaps of faith as our coaches tell us to as we get older, and even when we do, we do so with much less confidence which doesn't get us as far.

As I said, the additional worries adults have are not necessarily unjustified, but they are there, and this is the biggest difference, more than any physical limitations.

Agreed! It's a hard topic to debate without offending some people, but I prefer to make my opinion known anyways. I know what my goal for my mental determination is anyways, though I don't know if I will ever manage to accomplish it.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Casey - You know what Casey, I used to think like you when I was 25!!

I dont think you will ever understand the late starter problems because luckily for you your'e only 25 and although a late starter you are still relatively not that late a starter, I started skating on and off when I was pushing 40, I'm now 56 the only time I have ever done axels or doubles is in my dreams and if I tried now, no matter what the mental attitude I know it wouldn't happen and I would be very very stupid to try.

I took a 25 year old, to an adult competition once and she fell about laughing watching some of the skaters until I reminded her that some were older than her mum and could she see her mum doing this?

When it comes to courage, for me its not in the flash skaters that have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths and been skating since they can walk. Its in people like yourself who struggle to scrape the money up to buy boots with only yourself for support, or the downs syndrome man that enters every year at our Bracknell adult open, or the man that had a heart attack 2 years ago and still continues to compete, the list is endless.


Time and again I see young people come on the ice hardly able to put one foot in front of the other and I know 2-3 years down the line they will be popping axels and at least working on their doubles whilst I'm still struggling with my singles, that's a fact of life and it isnt going to change. I'm just pleased with the things I have achieved and continue to set goals for myself.

Right now my goal is to get some sleep, it's 2.55am and I cant sleep with the flu, no wonder I'm a grumpy old *** night night everybody.

Cheers
Grace

You know, I really have always found this topic vaugely amusing. It always focuses on adults who started as adults that have to compete against adults who started as kids. How unfair it is, or how the adult who started as an adult will never get the jumps or never look as comfortable on the ice as others. The most amusing thing to me is the "it's purely mental" attitude that many take.

But no one ever thinks twice about saying a 20-year-old should not be competeing against the 10-12 year olds (or younger) in the standard track. As someone who began at age 19 (for while I did skate as a kid, I didn't really get far enough in ISI to jump and had to quit shortly after I started), I have had to do standard track. I've been forced to get my doubles (something I wanted to do anyway) much quicker than if I had skated adult track.

I know that my 19-year-old body simply cannot bend the same way or do the same things as these little tiny 10-year-olds. Plus, I've lost the "cuteness factor" that goes in with many of the lower levels. I don't have the same look on the ice in terms of the ease of my skating, though I don't look frightened either. My body just doesn't have the same fluidity as some (and I was a competitive stage dancer for 14 years). I still compete because I love it. I've worked my a** off for the last two years to get my double lutz. Do I expect someone else to do the same? no.

It's the same principle, really, as someone who started at my age versus someone who started even ten years older. Their body simply does not bend or work the same way as mine. It's not to say that they can't do the same things as I can, but it will probably take longer no matter how hard they work.

I know a 72-year-old woman who still competes at the Silver level (not so much this year, but previously). She's done Peach, she's done Adult Nationals. She started as an adult. She has all of her singles, though as she ages her lutz is going a bit. She skates every day. She will never have doubles, no matter how much she wants to. Her body cannot hold up to the strain that learning these jumps would cause. She also has one of the best camel spins I have seen to date.

I'm 21. I've been in competitive sports all my life. I know my limits. I push them every day, hence the broken wrist, hand (which happened during finals so I had to take all oral finals), a 2nd degree friction burn on my knee, and assorted others. Some of the falls I've taken could have caused MUCH worse damage to someone older. It's not a mental thing, it's a fact of life. You can have all of the confidence in the world at age 72 and still be realistic.

Not fatalistc (I can't ever do this), but REAListic (you know, my body is older and doing a double lutz is more than it can handle). Adult skaters can do whatever they wish, providing their bodies will let them.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

Perhaps I was a little too broad. When writing in this thread, I had in mind people who started in their 20's or 30's. Do I think a 60 year old could ever land a triple? I think it's possible. Do I think it's likely? No, most likely it's not. But I don't think anything is impossible, either, the human body keeps surpassing itself.

What I do think, is that someone who started anywhere between the ages of 18-30 have every chance of landing doubles, or even triples (at least as much a chance as the kids). Of course, you can't start adding variables- I mean yes, there actually IS a huge child obesity problem. So if you say you started at 38 but were a couch potato, you'll have as much luck with doubles/triples as an out of shape child, although it'll probably be easier for them to lose the weight (then again if they have parents that teach them bad choices about food, they might have a harder time than you, because as an adult you are more aware of how to make smart choices and you can cook for yourself). But I'm saying....if equally talented, equally fit, equally healthy people of ages 10 and 20 started skating at the same time, and were training with the same coach for the same number of hours and bla bla bla, and the only variable was age, I actually think the 20 year old might be further along at 25 than the 10 year old would be at 15. At best, they'd be equal IMO.

Obviously as people pointed out, variables do come into play as people get older, but I then think you should say "I can't learn to do doubles because I cannot afford to put enough time into the sport", not "I can't learn to do doubles because I'm 25."

This may indeed by a naive way to look at things, and honestly I'm terrified to think of how my body will be when I'm 25, or 30, or 40...but when I was a little Intermediate skater, I was also terrified of turning 18, and no limbs have fallen off since I hit the big 1-8. 18 is already supposed to be "retirement" age for us girls. I've found that not to be true- I'm in way better shape now that I was at 16. And I work smarter. I have had a lot of injuries to deal with, as Casey pointed out, so I can join the back, knee, whatever discussions now. I'm in pain very often, and most of the injuries are overuse injuries, because I've been skating so damn long. If I had a brand new, uninjured 20 year old body who had never skated, I'm convinced that I could learn to do the jumps I do now in maybe 5-7 years time, and that'd still make me less than 30. Actually even with the injured and fixed-up body I have now, if I had to learn from scratch, I am pretty convinced I could. I might be wrong. But I believe it.

I completely agree to disagree. But I do think that some of you are selling yourselves short. I think the biggest thing is that if I said..."okay, how many of you want to train to go to Nationals (the standard ones)? I don't think many of you would go for it, whether it be time, money, belief that you could never do it...or whatever other reason. The kids, even if they will never make it, train with the Olys, or at least Nationals in mind. They know they HAVE to have these huge jumps. I agree with Casey that it is more of a mindset, or circumstantial thing than age, esp. in the 20-30's range. If you were training to compete in, say, Novice Nationals...you'd have to get a double axel and a few triples, there would be no choice afforded to you about it. And I think if there was real support and motivation and people telling you that it's possible to do a triple "at your age" and you had the time and money (and interest, as I'm not sure all that many of you would actually *want* to work on triples, with everything that comes with them...) then I think that about as many of you would land them as kids do- which is not many, but it's not zero. In my opinion a 25 year old body is a 25 year old body. Will a 25 year old who has skated all their life be at the same level as a 25 year old who has skated for a year? No. But can the less experienced 25 year old catch up if given enough time? I honestly think so.

Just my thoughts. Perhaps naive, and uninformed. But my thoughts all the same.

Well I'm still here, still cant sleep, husband snoring isnt helping!!


Now that's something I would like to be around to see!!



I remember crying on my 16th birthday because I thought I was over the hill.
Maybe, but I have yet to see it for myself.
Fair enough that's what the forum is for, also for people like me who cant sleep, it gives me someone to chat to.


Cheers
Grace

PS It's now 4.24am

I don't think it's purely mental, but I think that the mental limits are a much bigger obstacle than the physical ones.

stardust skies put it much better than I could manage in her last post here anyways

samba, I hope you get some sleep! Insomnia is not good for skating, I hear...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Hmm. . . No response yet from the original poster. Isn't it funny how easy it is to throw out a heated topic like the potential of adult skaters and just watch everybody go? ROFL!

Actually, they did respond

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

ok, my most difficult jump is toe salchow, thrilling isnt it, well for me it is, think I will try to go back to sleep as Casey said - a skater needs her sleep zzzzzzzzzz

Cheers
Grace

I can cheat that jump quite well. The regular salchow is my best non-cheated jump. I did a few non-cheated rittbergers once, but they've escaped me, probably mostly because I can't backspin. European jump names are fun.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Rittbergers????

The original name for the loop jump, after it's inventor, Werner Rittberger. It's used in some parts of Europe, much like toe salchow is used for what we call the flip.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I think as I was the person who asked about whether the original poster meant adults as in over 18's, or adults as in those who learnt to skate as adults, I'd like to come back here especially with regard to this post above.


I started skating at 36 along with my kids who were then 8 and 10. I managed to keep up with my daughter through learn to skate group lessons although son already streaked ahead ( natural ability and extra strength as a boy). They have their lessons (even now) and then either get off the ice or play with their friends. Practice? - they don't know the meaning of the word, yet 6 years along they both have doubles and have skated at national level in pairs as well as having many Opens medals.

I am still struggling with the Loop and no matter how hard I try I will always have 'the look' of an adult skater.

Do they have the better attitude and determination? Actually, no they do not. I have the same coach as them, who is very encouraging to adult skaters and NEVER tells me I can't do something. I spend my time on the ice practising and I have more lessons than they do. My goal (aside from jumps)is to stop looking like an 'adult skater'. The difference is not only in the jumps but in the BASIC SKATING. It is very difficult (for a great many reasons - some of which have been touched upon by Stardust skies and Casey) for adults to get rid of 'the look' not least of which is that the older you are when you start, the more your muscles have learned to do things a certain way and you are having to overcome ingrained muscle habits. The kids have 'skating' muscle habits ingrained from the start and so will always have an advantage even when they are adults and even when they have taken a break from skating for many years.

It also explains why those adult starters who are more succesful at jumps and general skating tend to have been gymnasts or dancers or roller skaters or whatever previoulsy so they have similar muscle memories. Does anyone know if the Kim Sailer mentioned earlier was a dancer or gymnast previously? Also of course the younger adults have less of a hard time than the older adults and unless you are an older adult when you start, you probably won't be able to understand the difference (unless you suddenly take up an entirely new sport and then you'll see!)

I have also competed against a 19 year old who had been skating a similar length of time to me - despite the fact she had no regular coach and a crummy rink she was on a different level entirely as far as speed/style/flow/grace etc. I enjoyed skating with/against her but it was hardly a fair competition! (In truth she would have normally tested out of my level but had no testing sessions she could get to)

That was why I asked the original poster to clarify which type of adult skater they meant as there is a difference and I would love to hear about more 'learnt as an adult' skaters who are managing to achieve the big jumps (despite adult handicaps of money/time/alternative comittments /appreciation of the consequences of falling/ageing bodies etc) as it gives us old fogeys (43!) some hope!


I love Schmecks coach's comment on adults learning jumps..

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

When Ottavio Cinquanta formally announced recognition of our skating, he distinguished "Adult and Masters" skating as two new ISU disciplines.

I think that's quite a good way of putting it. Okay, so not all Masters skated as children (I can think of at least one who didn't), and not all Adults will have started in their 30s or 40s - some who skated as kids took such a long gap, or simply never got to a high enough standard, that Masters is not an appropriate level for them. But by and large, it works for me!

And when I think that I was told, when I started skating, that Adults just danced, they didn't jump, spin or compete..... well, we've come a very long way in ten years!

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Wel, let's see . . I skated as a kid and got through many dances, some figure tests, and jumping-wise through 2toe, and was working on 2loop when I quit.

After 13 years off the ice and picking it up again at the age of 26ish, sure I had much muscle memory and basics, but I had to re-learn a lot of things. I could get through all the singles well but they weren't great technique-wise. Actually the only thing that seemed to still be perfect were my flying camel and sitspin. I have a fairly frightening looking axel (though I rarely miss it) that 5 coaches haven't been able to fix, so someone must have taught me improperly as a kid. It took until I was 30 to get a 2loop, and I'm still at 34 working very hard on 2flip and 2lutz, yet to be landed.

Let's recap: I skate 8 hours a week very hard with one of the top coaches in the area, lift weights and do off-ice jumping, and it's been 4 years between getting the 2loop and 2flip/2lutz. AND I skated as a kid. So perhaps if I could skate 5 hours a day like elite kids and didn't actually have to work, I could cut that time in half to 2 years. But I'm telling you, many 9-14 year olds wouldn't take 2 years to go from 2loop to 2flip.

So in conclusion, even if you had the advantage of skating as a kid, and you are as gutsy and strong as I am, it still is a slower learning process.

Which is not to say that I won't get through 2flip and 2lutz (I'm painfully close) and attempt to start learning triples at age 35! I'm skipping 2axel though: I hate single axels and since it's not a requirement, I'm going straight to 3salchow!

A while back, I had someone say that I was a good height (being small) for being a skater, I am wondering if that is true in skating that it could be harder for a taller person, or it might be just a myth?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "tall". I think it also depends more on how well you control your body than how tall you are. I mean, look at Todd Elderedge, or more recently Evan Lysacek. VERY tall guys, VERY good. I also don't think of Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel, or any other guy that's been on the podium recently as anything but tall. The only short skaters that come to my mind are Elvis Stojko, Dan Hollander, and Stefan Liedeman. I think the trend is that guys are taller now than they used to be (at least in skating) and I think that any issues you may have with being taller can be made up by having good technique, while any advantage that may be had by being shorter (if any) can be undone by bad technique.

All in all, I think it's about technique more than body type. So long as you're healthy and fit, I think you've got as much of a shot if you're short than if you're tall, regardless of any old wives tales that may be floating around. The only time I think height really comes into play is for dance and pairs, and it's more about finding the right height partner than about your height itself.

As far as ladies, look at Carolina Koster (who's got some of the best jumps around) and Maria Butyrskaia (who kicked butt and won a World Championship at age 29). They are tall ladies, and amazing skaters. So I really all think it doesn't matter in the end.

But most overweight kids won't be on the ice. Most of the kids that start skating are tiny little things. I'm always afraid I won't see one of them, skate into them and squash 'em.

I've had two different coaches tell me--while still struggling with half jumps--that I will do doubles in the future because my jumps are "powerful." I personally think they are on drugs, but I am aiming for doubles....eventually. Right now, I'm aiming to get all my halves as soon as my new blades come in.

Not really on topic, but I had to laugh at your perception of a "tall" skater - Todd is 5'8" (2" shorter than I am, and I'm a woman), and Carolina Costner is about 5'5"-5'6" I think - hardly "tall" in my book!

When you are 5'10" adult woman, with hefty hips and significant bust, the height does matter - I think you yourself have pointed out that growth spurts hinder the skaters in childhood (sorry no time to reread the whole thread), similar thing happens here. Sure, one can always learn to adjust/compensate with technique, but physicists would tell you all about the body mass being further away from the center of rotation and how it affects the jumps/spins, etc. Fact is, when you are 5'10", there's way more balancing involved even in a simple sit spin as your foot ends up being further away from your body than shorter skater's does, thus centering is more difficult (and don't forget about those hips/bust women have).

In short, I both agree and disagree with you - while yes, disadvantage can be overcome by good technique, given skaters of similar technique, the taller one will be at a disadvantage. There's also a reason we don't normally see elite women skaters above 5'5"-5'6" and with sizeable hips/bust.