Currently, dd is about a Freeskate 4(USFSA) level. She's can land up to a Lutz(it isn't very pretty yet!) and is landing most of her other singles clean now. She's got a camel spin(tho she needs to get in an extra revolution) and is working on her sit spin. She can do a sit spin, but falls 1/2 the time. LOL. I've seen her pull off some perfectly lovely sit spins but I've also seen her land on her butt too. Her back spin is MILES better then it was a month ago and she's working on some combo spins and combo jumps. She's also working on beginning axel stuff and has landed a couple in the harness. She's a LONG way from landing them independantly. We're OK with that but dd loves learning them!

She currently skates 3 days a week, sometimes 4. She currently takes 2 private lessons(30 minutes each), 2 group(1 LTS and one moves/power skating class from her private coach again, 30 minutes each) and one off ice class a week. She's on the ice about 5-7 hours a week. Dd is 11. She loves all of this. I also recently talked to the skating director about LTS. There is a USFSA poster up at the rink. It lists the different classes USFSA offers. I saw the Artistry in Motion(AIM) catagory and asked about it. They don't have a coach specifically for this class, but he is willing to look into it and will have the coach who works with dd's group class incorperate AIM into her class. Since she will likely be the only one in her level, this should be easy enough to do. He wants to do it this way so dd can work on the technical skills as well as the artistry skills.

Anyway... is this too much? I try to go by how my daughter is feeling and what she wants to do. She has pleanty of time for school and friends, so that doesn't seem to be an issue. Last year, she skated this many days a week, but typically had only her 2 private lessons and the occassional LTS class. This year, her coach started teaching an off ice class and then we recently started the group class with her coach as well. She's been in off ice for over a month now and I can see a difference already. The group class has been good as well... not to mention cost effective! LTS is also cost effective and allows her the chance to be on the ice more. How much is too much? Do you child direct this? Like I said, so far, she is doing very well with all of this. She is enjoying her time on the ice(and off!) and seems to be learning a lot too. I feel good about it all and think what she does is great. I know other kids her level(or close) who skate 5+ days a week and have off ice, dance and other activities too. Thanks!

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

At 11 years old, your DD is more than old enough to tell you when she wants to stop or wants less ice time. If she is enjoying what she is doing and wants to go to the rink when it's time, then I don't see how this could possibly be hurting her. As you said, many children her age are doing much, much more (at that age, you're talking juvenile competitors so lots of training time on and off ice). Listen to your DD and what she says regarding it, let her know it's her choice if she wants to keep doing it, and then just let her enjoy.

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"Without a struggle, there can be no progress" ~ Frederick Douglass

What are her goals with skating? If she's planning on being competitive in any way, she needs to decide if she wants to step up her training, as there are some age limits that get tricky in the upper skating levels (juvenile and intermediate have upper age limits, yes?) and it can get very disappointing to get to a point and not be able to continue.

ETA - juvenile - must be under age 13, intermediate - must be under age 18

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blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.

My DD is almost 11 but not quite at the level of yours skating-wise LOL! She's on the ice 2-3 times a week for an hour or so each time. We haven't let DD direct this too much - if she could, she would have more skating. However, there are a few things we considered as a family when deciding how much was enough, and they're issues which may be relevant for your family as well:

* We have 2 DDs, and each one wants to skate, play a team sport etc. We have to fit in both lots of activities in a timetable which is fair to both, and the same limitations apply to both. (Not to mention we have to pay for both!!)

* School work must not suffer - it comes first. By the same token, we don't want to pile on the pressure too much - DD already puts enough pressure on herself in that regard without us adding to it.

* DD still needs time to play and just be a kid in an unstructured way.

* At 11, we also want to make sure that DD has the opportunity to try other things as well. By giving her the opportunity to try other things, her focus will eventually make itself felt naturally (whether that focus ends up being skating, drums or whatever). We want to ensure that she does not feel "forced" into one direction in preference to another.

If DD is asking for more skating while the other things above are OK, then we figure that we probably have the balance about right. If she's begging and asking other parents for lifts to the rink etc (don't worry, she's not), then we probably don't! I agree with TreSk8AZ - lots of kids do lots more than what your DD is doing.

I'm trying to remember how much ice time my daughter Icy had at that point - she had just quit competitive gymnastics, and decided she wanted to try out for the local synchro team. I think by the time she had finished a year of synchro, she was skating only 4-5 hours at the most, including one private lesson and one group LTS lesson. She was 12, and zipped through the Freeskate levels in about two months I'm thinking?

Then she started USFSA testing, and she really didn't like jumping (even though she almost had a 2flip at that age) so she got more into moves testing and synchro and she was on the ice about 3 hours for her own lessons/practice and 3-8 hours for synchro, depending on the team level and time of year. She didn't start serious testing (above preliminary) until she was 13, but just passed her gold moves last spring, just before she graduated high school. She also picked up ice dancing a few years ago - wait I didn't include that hour in my totals!

It really, really depends on what she wants out of the skating - if she's 11 and wants to compete seriously in USFSA, she needs a lot more ice practice time. If she wants to be test track, (like Icy was) she can get by with what she's doing now, I think.

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blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.

She is competitive right now. I don't know where she'll be in a year and honestly we are not expecting a champion and I don't think she has any ideas of being a a competitive USFSA skater that goes to nationals and such. I know there are age limits, but I was under the impression you could still compete even if you are 13 and not Juvenile level yet. I know there are rules, but I did not think dd would HAVE to go to test track if she is not Juvenile by 13. That's only a year and 1/2 a way and I honestly don't see her being Juvenile by then. I'm nervous now because I know she currently wants to stay on the competitive track. I'll have to ask her coach. Her coach knows her age. Anyway... thanks!

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

She can't skate Juvenile once she turns 13. At that point, she would do Open Juvenile instead, but that is not a qualifying level. That is, Open Juvenile skaters do not advance to Junior Nationals - the level might be offered at Regionals, but only as a non-qualifying event. If she is still in the Basic Skills program now, at age 11, I very much doubt she will be able to compete as a Juvenile at Regionals before she turns 13. Competitive Juveniles typically have all their double jumps, in combination, and are working on double axels. As it is, she'll need an axel even to be competitive at Pre-Preliminary, unless it's a restricted event. If she loves to compete, she can find lots of competitions appropriate for her age and skill level, but being competitive at the Regional level is another thing altogether. It sounds like the amount of time she's spending is entirely appropriate for where she is now, but she'll need more if she wants to advance faster. I'm trying to remember what my daughter was doing as an 11-year-old Juvenile - I believe it was 2 freestyle lessons and a Moves lesson per week, about 12 hours on the ice total, plus ballet. She did not do any other activities, though.

She'll likely have her axel in the next few months, and be skating non-test by the end of the season. She'll take her pre-pre freeskate test in August(taking pre-pre moves in 2 weeks). So, she'll likely be preliminary when she turns 13. Not much I can do about that. Even if we stepped up her training, she still would not reach Juvenile level in 18 months. I am ok with that but I didn't think she'd be forced to compete in the test track. Test track has less skills allowed and she would go from being allowed to land axels in programs not not being able to land them until she reaches the juvenile level in the test track program. So yes, she'd be ale to compete at her level, but not really since she wouldn't be allowed to do all of the jumps she is capable of. How is that going to encourage her when her younger friends can do all of their jumps and various spins in their programs? OR am I completly misunderstanding how this works? I understand she can't skate Juvenile once she turns 13, but does she HAVE to skate test track? I'm confused.
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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Oh... and thanks to everyone else who replied. I appreciate it.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Ok... looked at a few more things and have some questions. I'm seeing she could likely still skate in pre-prelim, preliminary and so forth in the competitive track but could not skate in a qualiying comp until Intermediate. Is that right? Or am I reading that completely wrong? I know dd will want to stay on the competitive track. It's OK if she has to skate Open Juv at some point, but is the competitive track completely closed to her if she isn't Juvenile by 13? I can't imagine it would be(thinking of Johnny Weir). My dd has come a long way in a year, but it's not realistic to think she will be Juvenile level in 18months. Not to mention, I don't want to put that kind of stress on her!

So, can someone explain this to me? The way I am seeing it, she can compete at her level until she hits Juvenile. At that point, if she is 13 or older, she has to skate in the open juvenile catagory. Then, once she gets up to the intermediate level(17 and younger), she can get back onto the competitive track. Am I thinking right or totally off base? She obviously won't be 17 for awhile.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

If she is loving it, and she is keeping up with her schoolwork, then let her get on with it! If you find there's a bit of resistance towards going to the rink (even if she enjoys it when she gets there), then ease off a bit.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I don't know how the competitive system works in the US, but in the UK there are still plenty of competitions you can go in for without thinking about Nationals. Over here we have Opens which generally start from beginner (jumps up to loop, no combinations) and go up to NISA level 10 (jumps up to double lutz with double-double combinations).
I was at an Open a few weeks ago and there were around 100 kids skating at beginner level split into age categories, so it's a fairly big thing.

I'd think there would be something similar in the US that your daughter can aim for. Skating at Nationals is unrealistic for most kids, I'm part of a fairly big club and we have one entry into the British Championships this month.

Your daughters coach or club should be able to give you more information about which competitions she can do, but don't worry too much .

As far as your initial question, I'd only be concerned if her school work or social life started to suffer.

First, want to clarify what I meant by 'competitive' - I meant skating in qualifying events, so if your daughter hasn't even started testing yet, then she's not competitive in the sense I meant, as she's just competing in Basic Skills.

One thing you also have to think about - if she's 11 now, she's going to be one of the oldest kids out there competing at the non-qualifying levels. At some point she's going to be skating with kids 4-5 years younger than she is. My daughter's friend went through this. She was 12, just tested pre-pre, and found herself competing against 8 year olds. She ended up quitting skating less than a year later, as she felt out of place.

The Test Track does have limits on the elements allowed, but it was set up to encourage the skaters who started out a bit later in testing. It also encourages skaters to have clean, true elements. After watching our local regional's intermediate skaters, I can see the judges' frustration with the quality of a lot of the skaters' so-called double jumps. A lot of them had all or most of their doubles downgraded to singles in IJS.

So, there's a lot to think about - do you want to commit and push for qualifying levels, or keep it a bit more low key and keep it more recreational? Both are great choices.

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blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.

Yes, you have this correct. If she continues on her current trajectory, she will likely age out of Juvenile before she's ready to compete at that level. She could do Open Juvenile events at that point (which are offered both on the Standard and Test tracks, just like every other level). At the point she is ready to test Intermediate, she'd be able to compete at Regionals if she is still 17 or younger. (I should also point out that many regions do offer Open Juvenile events at Regionals, and she could certainly enter those - they are not qualifying events, though, and skaters don't advance to the next level of competition. It's good experience, though, and there are some very good skaters in Open Juv - the only difference is their age.)

However, as you are learning, there is a BIG difference between having the skills necessary to pass a free skate test and having those necessary to be truly competitive at a given level. A girl at my club went to her first Regionals this year, at age 16, as an Intermediate. She took the same path your daughter may be following - started skating relatively late, aged out of Juvenile before she could compete at that level and so did Open Juvenile for awhile, and worked like a dog to pass her Intermediate test. She finished near the bottom of her group, but it was a huge personal victory for her to be there at all. There are many ways to play this game, and every skater has their own goals, which are perfectly worthy and valid.

I think what you would do, if you decided to switch her to test track, is you would test her up to the appropriate level for that track--meaning you would go ahead & test her up to Juv, so she could do the axels in competition. That's what test track is for--no more of the holding back someone from testing until they'd be competitive at that level for qualifying--you test them to the level they're actually skating for the test requirements, and then compete those elements too.

Unless she's really wanting to try for regionals soon, personally I think that might be a good option for her--at some point you need to start letting them test out so they can have that accomplishment before they graduate. It's a bit early to worry about that now, but it's something to consider a little further down the road.

Also, she can also switch back if she starts getting the doubles, etc. after a few years. You just can't do both in the same competition. So you'd test her up to Juv once she hits the age limit (or maybe a bit later if she can / wants to do some open juv), and then if she starts catching up to what's being done on the competitive track, no reason not to switch and do qualifying then if she wants to.

Exactly, right or wrong, the tests for the qualifying tracks are seriously misaligned with what you actually have to be able to do in competitions. My dd just turned 9, and has an advantageous birthday in that she is still 8 as far as the time of regionals etc. She has a good solid axel now, death drop, flying spins and is starting to land doubles here and there and her coaches expect she will do pre-juv by next season (at only 9).

The other concern, as well as the jumps that are being discussed here, are the other aspects: you note that she has an underrotated camel spin, and nearly a sit spin. At the levels referenced here, i.e. Juvenile, you're looking at far higher degrees of difficulty in spins, spin combinations, flying spins, change foots etc ... and with fast rotations and clean entry and exits. Skating skills are also critical, in terms of transitions and edges. The judging is also far more critical in terms of "what" constitutes a sit spin, for example ... I seem to remember even Brian Joubert getting caught on sit spins that didn't quite sit last year, and I see quite a bit of that happening under points judging (CPC).

Where does her coach see her? That's an important point. And ... is your daughter happy? That's paramount.

I've got two kids. Although Canadian, there is a comparison to the US system. One is StarSkate (test track) and one is in the process of moving from StarSkate back to the Competitive Track (fell off track due to injuries and puberty). The StarSkater has a fantastic time, and is a very good skater, and is learning just as much and enjoying just as much as the other one - more in fact, as it is more about the joy of skating and less about qualifying for various levels. However, she started later, has never been as strong a skater, and test track was designed for her - she can succeed, compete, grow as a skater and a person - and that's great. The other one has the ability to do Competitive, and has that goal - however, it is a very different environment in terms of focus, stress and commitment (dollars and time) - and that's a choice parents, skater and coach are making after a lot of thought.

As our coach always emphasizes, there is no "shame" in test track: it's where most kids end up, and it is a fantastic place to learn, grow and make friends. Some skaters choose it over competitive, even though they could be competitive.

As for the amount of skating: how efficient is your kid in terms of practicing? Some kids are able to get more out of an hour than others are able to get out of 2 hours. So, it's hard to say "this many hours" without knowing the skater - it varies - I'd ask your coach, after having a discussion about goals, opportunities and abilities, what s/he would recommend in terms of training hours.

Yes, that's right.

From where she is now at 11, she wouldn't likely be ready for intermediate level, and therefore regionals, by 13 or 14, but it might be an achievable goal at some point during her high school years if she wants to commit to serious training.

If she's ambitious about competing in a qualifying competition, you could look at reaching intermediate level as a 5-year plan. (Or maybe 4 or 6 years, you can't always tell in advance how long it will take.) Most skaters who compete at regionals never go beyond that. Just getting that far is an accomplishment in itself.

In the meantime, she can compete in nonqualifying competitions at the lower levels. She's probably ready for no-test now, might aim for prepreliminary by next spring or summer especially if she gets her axel and passes some Moves in the Field tests, etc. She might spend approximately a year at each level for prepreliminary, preliminary, prejuvenile, and open juvenile.

I don't know where you live or what the competitions in your area are like. At large competitions there are usually enough competitors at the lower levels to divide the events into several groups of manageable size. Usually the divisions are made by age. Open juvenile by definition is all teenagers.

So a 13-year-old with a couple of beginning double jumps would probably find other skaters of similar age and skill level to compete against in preliminary and prejuvenile. There's no need to stick with the test-track competitions unless the rest of her skating progresses a lot faster than her jumping ability.

The amount she's skating now is probably fine for what she's doing this year. If she wants to continue progressing she would probably have to add more practice time and eventually more lessons each year.

At any point you or your daughter may decide not to continue increasing the commitment. Getting to intermediate level to compete at regionals doesn't have to be the long-term goal. Maybe she'll be content progressing more slowly through the nonqualifying competitive levels, or she'll decide to focus more on passing tests than on competing, or on other areas of skating besides freestyle competition. At some point she may decide she wants to focus on other activities and cut back on skating or quit entirely. You don't need to plan for every contingency now.

That's pretty much true. "Open juvenile" is not the same as test track though -- it's still part of the standard nonqualifying track, extended by one more level for the older kids.

It's also possible, if she gets comfortable with double jumps in preliminary and prejuvenile and is also on track with other elements and Moves in the Field tests, to skip open juvenile completely and test up to intermediate as soon as she has several reliable double jumps and can pass the test. Some teens in that situation like to compete with their age mates and like to train a short program, even if they know they don't have the skills to place at the tops of the intermediate fields. It does take more commitment to compete at that level than to stay in open juvenile or prejuvenile another year, though.

I hate hate hate when people make open juv as the kiss of death.No, its non qualf just like pre juv and below are considered. But here are the facts... less than 50 skaters go on to Jr nats anyway.So the fact that open juv isnt able to isnt the end of the world.Its such a slap in the face to kids that are in open juv, and that is all due to age.She could be in open juv for a year and move up to intemed, just like any other 13/14 year old.
Since she hasnt even tested yet, I wouldnt worry about where she will be at in a year or two.I would start having her test soon, just to get her feet in the water.I agree with Ellyn, just have an open mind/heart and dont get caught up in the what ifs.
imo

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She's actually not under roating her camel. Her coach wants more revolutions(she can do 3-4 right now) and when she does the sit spin, she can do it and when she does do it, she does the required revolutions, she just needs to work on not dropping so low! LOL. She does that and winds up on the ice. Many of the kids she skates with are either her age or younger but there are only a few who are Juvenile level by 11. One girl is preliminary at 12 and another is pre-pre at 11 and her best bud is pre-pre at 10. There are girls she is friends with who are younger then she is but and yes, they are 2-3 yrs younger. She doesn't notice and doesn't care. We'll just have to play this by ear and see what her coach thinks.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Thanks. I appreciate this! What you described, is pretty much how it is around here. I honestly have nothing against test track...really I don't. If dd wanted to do that, she absolutely could. But at this point, she likes the road she is on and is so darn excited to be aiming torwards her axel. If she lands her axel and starts using it next season in competition, I know she will want to continue using it. Plus, once they have a good and consistant axel, her coach starts them working on doubles. So, depending on when she lands her axel and when it becomes consistant(which I know can take awhile), she may be working on doubles sooner then she and I think. Maybe that axel will take longer then we think to land... it's hard to say. As for MIF, I am planning on having her test up for those(provided coach agrees and dd wants to). I'm realistic and I am OK with where she is now. I was just concerned that she would have no choice but to be in test track once she hit 13. She'll be landing axels then and she'd be disappointed if she got to skate with them in program only to have to give them up! By then, she will likely be landing doubles too. Her current singles are looking really good(the full lutz needs work, but she'll get it)! Honestly, we are ok with where she is now and if she is 14 and in open juvenile, that is OK too. I hope I didn't come across as thinking she HAS to go to regionals...that isn't it. I just didn't want her to be forced to go to TT if she wanted to stay in the track she is in now.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Thanks! That's exactly what were're doing. She'll take her first moves test in 2 weeks(the 14th!). She'll likely take her freestyle test in August. We're pretty open minded and we've been enjoying the ride so far! There are pleanty of kids her age who are in her level now. I hope that I didn't come across as thinking she HAS to go to regionals, I don't think that! I got confused and wondered if she'd be forced to move to test track once she was 13. I've watched test track at comps and she would hold her own now in that track. There is NOTHING wrong with test track, but it doesn't seem as challenging and dd needs(likes!) the challenge. Plus, I was worried she'd lose the chance to use her axel(once she lands it). Make sense?

I feel better now. Thanks.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Thanks everyone. I feel better now and understand this better. I'm glad she has the choice to stay in the track she is in now or move to TT should she decide to do that. We'll keep doing what we're doing now and take it step by step. She's doing what she should be doing now and when the time comes to decide what to do next, we'll do that. Who knows, she might decide to stop skating in a couple of years. She loves it now but who knows what will be in a couple of years. At this point, she has no intention of quitting. She'd like to be a coach some day and she wants to keep competing. But kids grow and their wants change, so who knows what she will be doing in 2 years. She's happy skating the days she skates now and with the amount she skates now. She loves the sport(loves to skate, loves to read about it and watch it!). Thanks again!

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

Congratulations to you and your daughter on her figure skating! First things first, she can compete and enjoy the sport regardless of age! The first few USFSA levels in the competitive track at local club competitions are Basic Skills (Snow-Plow through Freestyle 6), sometimes No-test (meaning skaters hasn't tested any USFSA tests), pre-preliminary and sometimes limited pre-preliminary (no axels), preliminary and pre-juvenile and open pre-juvenile (13 and older). All of these levels are divided by age if the number of skaters warrant. After pre-juvenile, it moves to the qualifying levels within skating. Juvenile, Intermediate, Novice, Junior, & Senior. All of the skaters at these levels have the opportunity to compete in "qualifying events" (regionals, juvenile nationals, sectionals, nationals, etc....) There is a level called "open juvenile" for skaters that have aged out of juvenile but aren't quite ready to go intermediate in terms of skating skills. Unfortunately, sometimes this level gets a bad rap b/c it isn't a qualifying level and it's for 13+ aged kids.

However, with all of that said - if your daughter wants to compete and have fun, she can. My daughter is 10 and is pre-juvenile. We haven't been to any qualifying competitions (regionals) yet and she competes in the competitive track. For many skaters, it's not about getting to regionals as fast as you can- it's about having fun and progressing and ultimately showcasing your skills at a competition. Eventually, you're daughter will make it to regionals if she sticks with the sport long enough. But until then, there are many competitions that she can do and those will be just as important to her as a regionals competition is to someone else. There's no hurry!

One of my daughter's coaches didn't start skating until she was 12 - she's now a senior skater, still competing for the fun of it and loves coaching! Is she going to NATIONALS or the OLYMPICS....NOPE - but she loves the sport and that's all that matters to her.

Sometimes people forget that without the lower levels in skating, there would be no higher level skaters. It is these levels that we, as a skating community, need to embrace and nurture - not discourage b/c of a technicality like AGE!

So, basically what I'm saying is, regardless of your daughters age and where she fits along the competitive timeline......there are MANY MANY competitions available to her that are a perfect fit for her level! Enjoy the sport.....it's like a roller coaster so hang on!

When the fun disappears it's too much!

There will be bumps along the way and frustrations will run high, but when the bumps turn into glaciers and the frustrations are like typhoons, then it's too much!