All the levels -- not just adult -- switched to IJS-friendly WBP requirements before IJS was actually implemented at those levels. And in all those cases, skaters would be penalized for things under 6.0 that simply wouldn't get credit under IJS.

They adapted. So can we. If the spin is the only problem (you say you see some significant problems -- what else is there?), all it takes is some new choreography. Yeah, it will be a pain in the butt for some people, but, as stated before, very few people use the same choreography for a test as they do for a competition. I would suggest choreographing the competition program first then adapting it for the test and not vice-versa, since the test only needs to meet minimum requirements.

Glad I'm silver...doesn't really make sense for the test to have more elements than the competition program

Not necessarily true. I like spinning...well, at least I hate them a lot less than jumps anyway (MSF and I should trade strengths...though from the video I saw of him at AN this year, he's a lot stronger of a spinner than he gives himself credit for. ) But I feel that there's a lot more pressure for me to push for those combo spins now... rather than good single spins, to get the technical scores up. And as Tony Conte expressed to me in his email to me regarding this point "Most bronze skaters cannot hold a camel for greater than 2 revolutions."

Okay, here's some other things he mentioned that will shred some light:
(That response should answer the question about combo spins, as well as why he thinks that Bronze should be left at 2 spins.)

I could sorta see his point... I mean, I have enough trouble trying to spin fast enough on my sit spin to go more than 3 revs to fit in my choreography. But, I also see the pressure that's gonna put the skaters to do combo spins, as well as the hassles involved in adjusting the choreography, and that's my major beef about it.

I dunno, daisies... that program you saw at Sectionals is going to be my test program for Bronze FS -- well, minus what was supposed to be a flip that I botched on for a toe loop (which I probably should have done at Sectionals. ) I supposed I can change one of the spins to some footwork if I were to keep the program for a Bronze FS comp (if I skate up!)

Shouldn't matter though... I'm on competition hiatus!!! You just saw my very last competition as a Pre-Bronze FS skater! I'm not coming back to compete 'til I pass my Bronze FS tests!

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11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
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Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

That's why I said "very few" people use the same choreography. You obviously are one of the few!

No, she isn't! Minus the extra toe loop on a toe loop toe loop combo and a sal/toe combo, put the scratch spin where the second sit is and there's my test program for Bronze! So I use the same choreography minus little things here and there!

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Add me to the list. Doing the test program in comp is the best way I can think of to really prepare for skating it in a test situation. I'd like to pass the Bronze FS test on the first try. My plans were always to have the program rechoreographed somewhat (meaning increase the difficulty of the jumps and spins, and replace the back scratch at the beginning with another spin - now, I guess I won't be needing a spin there at all) after I passed and started competing at Bronze. I guess maybe the move from Pre-Bronze to Bronze is a bit different than moving between other levels b/c the program length is the same, so programs can be used at either level interchangeably until one officially tests up.

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You'd be surprised how many of those "few" there are!

In my case, it's already too time consuming to keep up with a program AND still practice my Bronze Moves for my test. (And wouldn't you know it... primary coach sticks in the 5 step mohawks "just for me" so I wouldn't forget to practice my Bronze Moves even when I'm preparing for a competition! How considerate!!!! ) But there's also a factor in cost in terms of lost time to recover those things that I've worked on prior to dropping it to work on a program (b/c for me I can't afford time and $$$ to get a choreographer to work on just choreography. I'm already stretched as is...)

I could tell you though that the time it takes for me to get my footwork right usually take at least 3 months just to get the footwork and another couple of months after that to get the speed and the flow that my coaches want. To me, getting the footwork for a program is like preparing for a moves test (b/c I am practicing my moves element! ) That's one reason why I don't currently do multiple programs... (or for that matter, why I don't compete much... ) Just too much stress for me!

But this is just me...

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jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Wait, what? Why isn't she one of the few? You can be one of the few too without changing her status as one of the few!

Sorry, I'm an editor.

Anyway, the point is, you're inconvenienced. Sorry. But it's not like it's not workable. Hopefully soon all the stars will align and everyone will be happy.

:: wakes up from dream ::

LOL!

(In fake melodramatic tone... I'M SO CONFUUUUUSED!!!! )

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11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I agree that nice spins with more revolutions are nicer, but I'd rather have seen them change the rules to say no camels, or no laybacks, etc.

Actually, you do not need to have 3 revolutions in each position if you are doing a combination spin. You only need two revolutions in position and 3 revolutions on each foot. So, for example, if you do a camel-sit/back sit, you only need 2 revolutions in the camel and 2 revolutions in the sit, but then you need 3 revolutions on the back sit. If you only do a camel-sit, you'll get credit if you do 2 full rev's in camel position and 2 full rev's in sit position. I think you can do it!

Daisy, or anyone else who might know:
So is there any plan to change the spin requirements on the Bronze test to bring it in line with the Bronze balanced program requirements?

It has not yet been discussed.

Dennis had a good idea for choreography.

Although at first I didn't like the changes, one thing I do like will be the time for skating in between everything! I think the idea of 4 jumping elements and 3 being combinations seems a little unbalanced though!

FWIW Count me in the category of test programs historically being similar to competition programs with a slight downgrading of elements for "playing it safe" on the test.

I have a quick question maybe Daisies can answer?

At the start of my program I do a schaefer push (however you spell that) then step forward into a waltz jump with a quick cross behind etc. The point being that I consider that choreography heading into my first jump. Will the new requirements count that as a jumping element?

Thanks for all of the hard work, I know all of this is a work in progress! I too would like to see the difficulty of spins limited for Bronze just like the jumps are limited.

I wouldn't!

Camel spin is a required element on the silver test. In fact it's the least consistent element for me on that test (somedays I can do 4-5 revolutions, but other times I can't even get one and fall out), and along with the stamina to skate 2 minutes is the main reason I didn't test up before the moves requirements came in. Now I also need to get much better at those back threes before I could hope to test up.

I've known guys who were landing double toes but couldn't pass the silver test because of the camel spin.

So bronze skaters need to be working on it, and that probably means putting it in the competition program, either solo or in a combination spin (especially with only two spins available), either to try to get it up to silver test standards or to showcase a good element if it's already there.

The layback is a good consistent spin for me, I can nearly always do it with 4-7 revolutions in position, and it usually centers better than my scratch spin.

Would you also want to not allow combination spins in bronze?

Adults aren't necessarily going to be well-balanced skaters at this level. Some may be far ahead in spins, or some spins, or in jump, or some specific jumps, and weaker in the other. Some can do pretty good spread eagles etc. and some will never be able to do them at all.

I think the MITF requirements do enough of a job of slotting pre-bronze, bronze, and silver skaters at the right levels, there are already some restrictions on jumps and fewer on spins, requiring minimum revolutions in spins will allow individual skaters to weed out the spins they individually can't do well enough.

Too much limitation on elements will mean that some skaters will be stuck in a level where they can do several more difficult elements that are not allowed but cannot do, or cannot do as well, other elements that are allowed and their competitors at that level are better at, and if they "skate up" to the next level, there may be even more elements common and allowed at that level that they're behind on and they'd also be behind on the basic skating and may need several years to test up to that level officially.

(BTW, I think that limiting adult gold to only 3 different doubles, and not allowing double axel, would be more appropriate than allowing only double salchow, toe loop, and loop, for similar reasons.)

Very good arguments. Specific limitations on jumps (or spins) can penalize "unbalanced" skaters. As it is, I think the fact that jumps have been restricted in Bronze and Silver (no axel in Bronze, no doubles in Silver) while spins have not, has given an advantage to those skaters who are stronger spinners than jumpers. A few years ago when I was in Bronze, the woman who beat me at Sectionals had a flying camel.
I don't really have a strong stance on whether Gold skaters should be limited by the number of different doubles they are allowed to do or which specific doubles they are allowed to do (i.e., only toeloop, salchow and loop) but I can understand the frustration of anyone who is more comfortable with a double flip than a double salchow.

Is it a true waltz jump in which there is a clear landing? If so, it's a jump -- at least under 6.0. Not sure whether a waltz jump counts as a jump under IJS, though I would think it should with adults.

Well, unless they make revisions to the point value structure, a waltz jump doesn't count b/c only jumps with a full rev have values. This is one of the problems with applying IJS to adult skating, particularly the lower levels. Pre-Bronze and Bronze skaters regularly have half-rev jumps in their programs but according to the way IJS is constructed, the lowest valued jump is a toe loop. I remember trying to find out what would be done about waltz jumps by looking through the protocols from O'dorf last year, and I remember not seeing any listed for credit.

But Bronze will be judged under 6.0 for at least the next year, so I assume any identifiable jump is still considered a jump - although Dani raises a good point. What if a jump element is clearly part of choreo or footwork? I'm thinking of split jumps and falling leafs as well as waltz jumps (isn't there a footwork step called a cross waltz that's kind of like a waltz jump?) - oh but then again, splits and falling leafs (and half-loops) aren't considered jump elements under IJS, correct? But then, what about 6.0? Gosh, this is confusing!

And to throw more confusion into the mix, here's another question: is there a limit as to how many jumps can be repeated? I know that a jump can be done a max of 2 times with at least 1 of those in combo, but is there a limit (a la Zayak rule) on types of jumps repeated? For example, could you have 2 sals, 2 toe loops, and 2 loops in your program, as long as you adhered to the combo repeat rule?

As far as restricting certain types of spins, I generally agree with Ellyn, with one exception: I don't think flying spins should be allowed in Bronze. Regular camels and sits, yes, but flying ones, no. Sorry, JMO.

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Per the new adult WBPs, there is no limit on the number of jumps you can repeat. It's just that you can only repeat them once, and one of the two must be in combo or sequence.

Will sequences be downgraded via the 0.8 factor for us as they are for other levels under IJS?

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For the pairs event at O'dorf last year, a few teams did elements that technically are not under in the IJS playbook (throw waltz jump and pivot spiral). These elements DID receive credit and had a point value associated with them.

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Hopefully someone else will know the answer to this. I don't know the answer because it has nothing to do with what the committee or GC voted on; it's a technical panel issue. But I don't see why it would be any different for adults.

Actually, if you are talking about the Johnsons, there aren't any base points for the Throw Waltz, nor any of their elements:
http://www.isufs.org/results/adult05..._fs_scores.pdf

Here are all the results for last year:
http://www.isufs.org/results/adult05/

Rob

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You have to look at the other competitors. Not to disparage the Johnsons, but I have seen that performance, and not one element was complete or done properly. Hence, the zero for the technical mark.

If you look at the 2nd place team, the Schwabs, you will see that element 10 is a throw waltz (1WTh), for which the base mark is 1.0. And element 6 is a forward pivot spiral (PiF1). The French team (who had interesting moves and choreography) also did a pivot spiral.

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I stand (sit) corrected.

Rob

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Geriatric Figure Skating Crew - President for Life!
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Facebook
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"I'm too old to die young, and too smart to be happy" - Kinky Friedman, The Mile High Club

2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
2009 Adult Nationals - competing with a cold is not much fun.
2008 Adult Nationals - Too little sleep, too much vodka!