That's a really interesting idea. Kind of like jump/spin limits that are already in existence for most levels. This is what I like about IJS - it's not a perfect system, but flaws can be identified and improved upon.

I like that idea too. Brings the spins/spirals more in line with the single/low double jumps values.

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I like that idea as well. It defintiely makes it more "fair" for lack of a better word.

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I spent too much time at AN hanging out with my skating friends from the South (where I learned the word and learned to skate).
Hmm, a NYer in the Midwest using a Southern word. One of the many other non-skating joys of skating.

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Not sure, but isn't that the right use of the word? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mayhap

Back OT, I'm reading everyone's AN posts with great interest and envy. We don't have an AN system down here, but there's rumour that we might get one soon. Can't wait if it happens! Good luck to all for the rest of the competition - and enjoy the after-parties...

Is it a southern word? I didn't know that. FWIW, I remember it from a newspaper in NYC when I was a teen. Mayhap is a good word and you used it right. I think people are more accustomed to see "par chance." Which is much more attractive to use because it's French, lol.

Not in that order, imo. Spins are more difficult than spirals and should be worth more points. Perhaps spirals=single jumps; spins=double jumps?

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The only thing I see with this is that getting higher levels called really gets the adult program respect. Kids see on icenetwork that adults did Level 3 spins or spirals and think WOW- because sometimes THEY can't do that yet.

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frus:

Here's an idea:

Let's just keep changing the rules until everyone wins a gold medal!

I HIGHLY doubt USFSA will adjust the judging system for adults.

THIS IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR!!! YOU WANTED IJS SO THAT IT WOULDN'T BE A JUMP CONTEST...HELL YOU EVEN GOT RID OF ALMOST ALL THE DOUBLE JUMPS IN GOLD. YOU EVEN MADE THE NEW CHAMP MASTERS INT/NOV CATERGORY SO MORE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE A CHANCE AT A GOLD MEDAL. NOW YOU DON'T LIKE THAT IS HAS BECOME A SPIN/SPIRAL COMPETITION? MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!

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Even if certain elements are not perfectly weighted in the current value system, at least the system is transparent and vastly more fair then 6.0. The stats I initially quoted would have been impossible to cite or analyse under 6.0.
Spins and spirals are real elements and the well balanced requirements actually do keep programs fairly well balanced.

I actually don't really have an issue (now that I think about it) with spins being worth more than jumps. You only do 3 spins in a program, versus 6 (or more) jumps/jump combos or sequences depending on what level you are. So the points even out there somewhat, or jumps wind up being worth a little more if you put in what you can do consistently and get called.

For example, in champ gold, Rebecca Musick's technical score was 16.78, 8.1 of that was from her jumps and 6.63 came from her spins, 2.05 was her spiral sequence (granted she only got a level 1 and from what I remember, she was going for something higher but had a bobble there). Heather's breakdown was 6.41 for jumps, 5.18 for her spins, and she did rack up 3.10 on her level 3 spiral sequence. For what it's worth, Rochelle was probably one of the best spinners in champ gold and 2 of her spins were called level 1. Actually she probably had the best extension and height on her spirals, and that was still called a level 1 too. So it's not like she even was able to take advantage of her spins/spirals to rack up points and make up for the fact that she struggles more with jumps (no doubles and her axels are usually two footed...I'm not knocking her, she'll tell you the same thing).

And Emily racked up some (well deserved) points on her level 3 step sequence. (I know she's got a different skating background than most gold skaters, but it just goes to show you can get steps called if you work hard at them.)

I don't really have time to sit and do math to see if this trend continues on down or if it's there at other levels, but I'd say that it looks like if you know how to work IJS to your strength, you can do just fine, which is the whole point of IJS anyway. That means not putting in jumps, spins, or spiral/step sequence levels you know will look like crap or are inconsistent and focusing on going for harder levels on whatever your particular strength happens to be. Because a level 1 spiral sequence or spin with high GOEs isn't worth much less than a level 2 with negative GOEs. And at gold, it's not like people are even racking up insane amounts of points on spins.

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Why are you shouting? It's just a simple discussion. No one's forcing you to participate. The USFSA doesn't even read this board unless someone sends them a link. Then they arrive and tell everyone to go to their private Facebook page so they can figure out who really said what. Don't worry about an open discussion here changing the rules there, lol.

Since I'm old and decrepit, spins and spirals are my stock in trade, lol. I don't compete, but I'm sure there are some cartiledge-challenged skaters out there who aren't doing doubles well anymore.

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My husband put a spiral sequence in his last programme for just that very reason, but he's now gone back to a step sequence simply because he finds it more interesting to do.

And there would be simply no point in my even trying a spiral sequence, as it wouldn't be called - I can't get my leg high enough no matter how hard I try. Except, of course, in our spiral drag combined pose, when I have to be careful not to give the judges the benefit of a splendid view of my underneaths!

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You've got more than enough adult skaters to put on a good one now.

What I wish is that we had decent after-parties at ours....

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All you really need for that are skaters + liquor. The ones at our ANs are kind of the same every year. People drink, people get silly, usually certain mens' shirts come off, and then the pairs lifts start...

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I still say that was Lloyd Eisler's REAL reason for wanting to skate at AN, *chuckle*

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Ok, first, stop shouting. It's JUST a discussion, we're not asking for anything to be changed. Second, you know that Intermediate/Novice was added to give the Gold skaters something to move up to when Junior/Senior started becoming less of Gold skaters moving up and more of the returning real Senior level skaters competing. It wasn't so more people could have gold medals. Isn't the one of the points of skating to keep improving and moving up? That's what that level was created for and it's worked very nicely.

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Interesting. It's a new word to me, and I'm a big word nut. I thought it was a typo on NoVa's part. One of my favorite comedians, Brian Regan, has a bit where he gets words mixed up by speaking too fast. For example, when you're trying to say "take care" and "good luck" and instead say "take luck." So I thought NoVa was mixing up "maybe" and "perhaps" both of which worked in the original sentence.

Carry on.

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The thread said rant so I did!

My point is there seems to be a pattern here of complaining followed by rule changes and it just gets to be a big bore! I have been on the complain side too. I was MAJORLY PO'd when Dallas posted a tentative schedule and then 3 weeks before the competition posted a COMPLETELY different one. My complaint was heard and things got changed(sort of). I paid the price I think by magically drawing the 1st to go spot in my group. I won the event with all 1st place ordinals.

My concern is that we need to stop the knee jerk reactions to every adult nationals. I don't think it is helping the competition to grow.

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

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"Rant" doesn't mean "attack others." You can disagree with others, but be agreeable about it, please. If you're bored by the discussion, no one's forcing you to contribute. However, at least contribute something beneficial. I think your rant would scare off more people than a friendly discussion. Just mho.

It's always good, after any kind of an event (skating or other), to review and rewind while it's still fresh in people's minds. This is an interesting discussion and it's enlightening to read others' perspectives. I enjoy reading about how things are handled outside of the US and I appreciate the skaters from Australia, Canada and the UK who make those contributions. (Plus the pithy comments about the parties, hahahaha!)

I also think these reviews DO help AN because it raises skaters' awareness of the IJS system and how to work it. Maybe pairsman is onto something with his statistics - perhaps the scores have gone up because skaters' understanding of scoring has gone up. There were some posts about how skaters chose spiral sequences over another element to garner more points. That's important to recognize and remember when planning for next year.

Which is what some of the members ARE doing - they're making their plans for next year, keeping themselves informed about scoring and learning new things. There's no harm in that and it might inspire some wallflowers to join in, but not if they felt they'd be attacked for doing "toe waltzes."

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Believe me, there were a LOT of things to complain about in regards to this ANs. I've never in 11 years complained before to an LOC. Sure, Ive been frustrated by things, but I figure it is what is it, and some years I'm the victim of bad schedules or PI, but next year it will be someone else. Schedules change, practice ice is always difficult, etc etc. And most competitors take it in stride. But this time it was almost like the LOC was going out of its way to piss us off. From nickel and diming everything, being crazy about the credentials, little communication throughout, having club ice in the middle of the competition, and kicking one skater out of the building for having a beer? Sheesh!

And I know some of the masters skaters told the referee they liked having their events split into groups of one, but there were several of us who didn't. And I have yet to talk with a masters skater that was happy about it, so I don't know who they were. But to not even know that until we showed up on Thursday was really inconceivable, especially since on the schedule and website it was different. Then they didn't even have trophies for us, even though we paid the same money as the other competitors!

I think greater basic communication would have helped tremendously in regards to all of it.

Not that this has anything to do with the IJS discussion from earlier, but my point is that having these discussions is helpful. There needs to be a post-mortem on all these events so that we can all collectively figure out a way to make it better the next time.

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Sounds like I picked a good one to miss. Lots of this stuff sounds like common sense stuff. Club ice in middle of comp.? Really? Wow.

Although I so missed seeing all my skating friends!

One of the competitors at the airport on Sunday told me that she went to the G2C seminar that morning, where she told one of the event organizers that the LOC would be getting A LOT of negative feedback. The organizer looked at her sheepishly and said something like, "Well, we didn't know what we were doing most of the time. This type of event is new for us." Ugh.

Isn't there an AN manual that was created in 2007 and improved upon through 2009 that each LOC is supposed to follow? I don't get it.

And yes, having club ice during our nationals when practice ice is limited is really inexcusable.

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I heard that St. Paul's club, which has hosted Regionals several times recently, bid on this ANs and lost to Bloomington. Because of the "facilities" - figure that one out.

Completely agree, and well said. No one is banging down the door of the USFS president to get spiral levels lowere, and I highly doubt Ottavio Cinquanta is reading Skating Forums. It's a discussion about possible problems and theoretical solutions. If you don't like it, don't read it.

piss poor excuse if you ask me. they did have the manual available to them AND they came to GR and followed us around to see what we were up to, and we were more than accomodating to them. That they chose their own path and neglected their customer in their race to the dollar is their own fault.

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Yes, and as Mel said the GR crew gave it to them. But your wording of "supposed to follow" is where the disconnect lies. They are under no obligation to follow it, and the Adult Skating Committee can't force it upon them. It's there as a reference for past best practices and intended to be amended as each LOC improves the practices and finds new ways to make things better (GR did this brilliantly, and I incorporated the changes into the Manual).

I spoke to Lexi wondering why they didn't ask for more help. Lexi said that both she and Tony Conte offered up their help several times, and I'm sure GR did as well as Mel stated. But they told Lexi they were fine and had everything under control. So I'm guessing they either thought they didn't need the help or they just flat out didn't want it.

This is where personally i think we need to have some sort of advocate for the adults on the LOC. Most ANs have had several adult skaters who had been to ANs on their committees, and they know the expectations of the other 500+ adults. This LOC it seems did not. The way it is now, the ASC has no jurisdiction to tell the LOC what to do, they can only make suggestions. There should be a way that the ASC can step in even just a little bit to help oversee how things are working.

They example I've been using this week was Chicago ANs. The referee gave us the schedule two weeks before the event started, which was already later than we wanted to release it. We had competitors beating us down begging for the schedule. So the referee was about to post it, and a few of us adult skaters on the LOC asked if we could look it over. Lo and behold, the ref had put all the Championship events at around 10:00 AM! Every. Last. One. We had to go back to her and strongly advise her to change it or there would be anarchy. She did, thank goodness. But if the adult skaters hadn't seen it ahead of time, and that schedule had gone out, it would have been a mess. So there should be an adult skater familiar with ANs on each LOC to help guide things.

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