I just saw the following update regarding jump requirements in adult singles. Interesting rule change, but probably won't have much of an impact.

The first rule wouldn't need to be invoked all that much, since most programs at any adult level have at least one sequence or combination. But even if you didn't, you'd just lose 20% off of your last solo jump. So basically, .1 deduction.

The second rule is targeting gold programs that don't have an axel attempt. Your last jump will then count as an axel attempt and you'll get 0. So, the gold skater w/out an axel would just plan a toe loop or salchow there and take the .4 hit.

Good rules in theory, but probably very little impact to placements. I prefer to see an axel in a gold program, so I like the idea of a penalty for not even trying, but I'd opt for something more like -1 (like a fall deduction).

Tim


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DATED: December 10, 2009

Re: Adult Singles Skating – Well Balanced Program Requirements- Jumps
Adult competition events have specific elements that must be included as part of
their well balanced program requirements. The International Judging System
(IJS) is based upon skaters completing a maximum number of
opportunities within their programs. The following process will be used
to integrate the Adult Well Balanced Program requirements into the Adult Events
that will be judged using the IJS system.
1. Jump combination or sequence - Adult free skating events (Bronze and
higher) allow a maximum number of jump combinations or sequences but
require at least one to be included in a skater's program. For events that
are judged under the IJS system and have a jump combination/sequence
required the following will apply:
In the event a skater does not perform a jump combination or jump
sequence when it is required, the technical panel will add "+sequence" to
the last jump element. No additional penalty will be assessed.
2. Axel jump - If an axel type jump is required by the Well Balance Program
requirements but not performed within the maximum allowed number of jump
elements, the last jump performed and included in the skater's identified
elements list will receive an "*" / No Value designation and fill a box. (This is the
same procedure used for other non- Adult IJS events).

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People dream of flying, birds dream of skating.

No, it's for Masters. Gold programs do not require an axel-type jump, Masters programs do. So if a Masters skater doesn't attempt one, that skater's last jump is asterisked and won't count. It does NOT -- I repeat, NOT -- affect Gold.

Neither of these rules is new. This just puts the IJS penalty for them in writing.

Thanks for the clarification!

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Fortunately, if any such rule ever gets implemented for Gold, it will have to be announced in the Governing Council report in May, giving skaters 10 months to adjust to the new rule before the next Adult Sectionals.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

I've wondered why the gold well balanced requirements don't require an element that is on the gold test. I don't mind that the axel isn't required, I'm just curious about the rationale.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

That was my thought as well because to pass the Gold test you need an axel, so (and maybe I'm naive because I test standard track) I would have thought it would be almost automatic that an axel would be included in a gold program...but that could just be me not knowing

__________________
Skating Dreams

"All your life you are told the things you cannot do. All your life they will say you're not good enough or strong enough or talented enough; they will say you're the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong type to play this or be this or achieve this. THEY WILL TELL YOU NO, a thousand times no, until all the no's become meaningless. All your life they will tell you no, quite firmly and very quickly. AND YOU WILL TELL THEM YES." --Nike

There are a lot of test elements at each level that are not specifically required in the competitive programs. For example, a sitspin is not required in the Bronze program, a camel spin is not required in the Silver program, and a CCoSp is not required in the Gold program. A lutz is also required on the Gold test but not required in the Gold program.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Using that logic, then why is it required for masters?

ETA - and why isn't the lutz required for Gold. (For the record, I HATE the lutz.)

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

There are no required elements in a Gold competitive program because it's supposed to be a FS program, but in order to do well (as you well know skater1964), you need to have 6 solid jumping passes, 3 of which are combinations/sequences, three spins, and a spiral or step sequence. FWIW, the spiral sequence tends to be the element of choice for most Gold ladies and I'd say 75% have at least one Axel attempt in their program. I took the Lutz out of my program because it's been a liability. Actually, without the Lutz, I feel much more confident (even with 2 Axels).

There are required items. We are required to do one jump combo, for example.

I guess where I'm coming from is why is the axel required for masters but not gold, when it is on the gold test. Or, if the axel is required for masters, then why isn't the next hardest jump (lutz) required for gold? (Personally, I would hate that). Just wondering on the logic of it all.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

By required I mean there's no "Must do Axel type jump" requirement. You can do anything up to and including the max jump items listed.

Probably because of the fickle nature of Axels for a lot of Gold level skaters would be my guess why we didn't get the masters' "Axel requirement". Lutz probably isn't required because of the way some tech panels treat it (there were a lot of people who got flips called one year that were actually Lz e's)

I'm not positive, but it stands to reason that Masters has it because Masters is based on standard-track tests, and standard-track levels have the axel-type jump requirement. True adult levels like Gold wouldn't (and shouldn't) have any sort of jump requirement. It's meant to be inclusive, not exclusive, and such requirements would keep a lot of skaters from entering. Yes, you have to land the axel in the test, but a lot of our adults tested years ago and may not have the same skill set at a more advanced age.

This is just my opinion, not an official reason.

IMHO Why is the Adult Committee always changing the jump rules w/out looking at spins and spirals. If you are going to put all these limits on jumps then you should do the same for spins and spirals. Now we have people doing level 3 and 4 spins and spirals in gold who don't even attempt an axel. IMHO if you can do a level 3 or 4 flying camel combo spin then you should have an axel and at least a 2sal attempt in your program. If your body can take that kind of contortion to do such a complicated spin you SHOULD be doing an axel.

I guess I need to get going on my judging credentials so that I can harpoon these "Gold" skaters who can't get their fat behinds in the air for a single axel!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

You obviously are not that familiar with adult skating if you think it's so easy to just do an axel if you can spin.

Some people are much stronger at spinning than jumping or vice-versa. Trust me, there are plenty of people who have great spins and just are not good at jumping, no matter how hard they try. You can hit great spin positions when you have a lot of flexibility, but that flexibilty that makes someone a good spinner is not going to translate into good jumping.

I'm going to use my friend Rochelle as an example (I'm sure she wouldn't mind ). Gorgeous spins. She has a flying camel-catch foot and when she nails it, it's clearly a masters level spin. But she's always struggled with axels. I don't know if she's ever landed it clean in competition (I've seen it very close). She didn't pass her gold free on the fist try because of the axel, but got the test at Buckeye after having to reskate the axel.

Steve is another one. He won champ gold men last year without an axel becauase he knew how to work the system and he has great spins.

And there are plenty of skaters hanging out in silver who have excellent spins just as good as any gold skater (because they have the flexibility to do a lot of positions), but they don't have axels.

I don't see a problem with this at all, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in their skating. I think the only time I've ever watched a skater and thought they were clearly in the wrong place based on their spins alone was Bronze I in '07 when Carolyn (who won) did a bielmann-change-bielmann. She would have won a medal in silver I without an axel with spins like hers. (But I think she decided to do ANs at the last minute, that was when we needed adult tests for ANs and she only had time to get her bronze free.)

Some skaters spend more training time working on spins because due to knee or back problems or whatnot, they can't spend a whole hour doing jump after jump after jump and falling repeatedly like a kid or teenager can. So naturally for these people the spins are going to get stronger than the jumps.

I think at levels like silver and bronze, program time limits keep spins from getting too complicated. When I competed bronze before the extra 10 seconds were added, I felt like I had just enough time to hit the number of revs (plus 1 or 2 extra for insurance) in each spin and get out. In silver, my coach keeps wanting me to tack all these things onto my spins (a COE on my solo spin, change my sit-sit to a camel sit-sit, and I have a flying camel-forward sit that he wants me to add another position or change of foot on to). I just don't feel like there is the time in my program to do that. From this perspective limiting jumps makes sense because it doesn't really take any longer to do a double sal versus a single jump.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Yup. I can't do all the jumps I could do when I was 14 (up to axel), but I can spin a whole lot better.

Even with the extra 10 seconds, I don't have time to do three separate spins. So I do two combination spins to make room for most of my spin skills.

It does if you need to telegraph it more.
Single jumps, especially the easier single jumps, are easier to pop right out of the choreography.

No I guess a Two-Time Adult National medalist(one gold ,one silver at two different levels) is not so familiar with adult skating.

You bring up another point on knee jerk rule changes. Giving Bronze skaters more time for their program IMHO is BS. Learn good stroking and edge quality to complete all the elements! We keep watering down USFS adult skating, we might as well just switch over to ISI. This "All INCLUSIVE" term has nothing to do with "COMPETITION". I mean really what is this? the Montessory Figure Skating Association?

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

The committee isn't changing the rules. The committee doesn't operate in a vacuum. It only proposes changes, and those changes have to go through several layers of approval, including any other committees it affects (Competitions, Singles, Pairs, Dance, etc.), the USFS board of directors and the entire General Council of USFS delegates.

"Harpoon their fat behinds"? One of the most offensive things I have ever read on this board. And that's saying something. With this public declaration of bias, good luck getting that judging appointment.

I do think MusicSkateFan has a point.

The flexibility part of the IJS rules regarding both spins and spirals give a huge advantage to certain skaters who have natural flexibility. FTR, I don't like this in standard/elite skating either, but I see it impacting adults far more than the elites or kids.

Also, the points that can be gained in spiral sequences and spins are out of whack as compared to jumps, because the system was created for elite skaters who are doing triples and quads, not for us. I'd like to see much lower base values for those elements to make them compatible for people doing doubles and singles.

We had a meeting several years ago at Mids where we talked about developing a point system for adults, but apparently it didn't go anywhere. Too bad.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I know what you're saying, but I'm really not sure how you're making the connection. Having flexibility and being able to do a level 2-3 SpSq and combinations spins truly do not carry over to the ability to do an axel. I have a LOT of trouble with my axel and can land a clean one only on a truly good day. I MUST skate in Gold because I have my Juvenile free (got a mercy pass a few years ago because the judges knew me and knew I was only taking the Juv free just to have the test....I had no idea it would bite me like this years later). So I have to make up my points somewhere else if the axel isn't working.

So I ask the reverse of you....it seems like you have a strong axel and double sal. Why aren't you doing more complicated spins and spirals? If you have the strength to have a good axel, you should be able to increase your flexibility no problem!

And since we're throwing our "cred" out there, I am a 4 time Adult National medalist, 3 in Silver and 1 in Gold. There. Now, don't I feel special?

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I competed bronze when I had my silver dance test and novice MIF (I'm pretty sure that constitutes good stroking and edge quality for that level) and to get in 1 solo jump, 3 jump combos, 3 spins (2 in combination) and a 1/2 surface step sequence in 1:40 even with my speed was a rush. There really was not time to hold spins and to show good stroking and edge quality even for those skaters who did have it. Preliminary has the same amount of program time and altough I don't know the well balanced program for that level, the test only requires 2 spins.

Let me bow down to you after I finish polishing all the medals I've accumulated over 15 synchro nationals, a few collegiate conferece championships and 3 ANs. But maybe my fat ### should be harpooned into doing an axel first, right?

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I think that on average men will find it easier to learn axels and double jumps as adults than women will.

Also on average younger adults (20s-30s) will find it easier to learn or maintain multirotation jumps and flexibility moves than older adults (50s-60s), given the same level of basic skating skill.

Of course there will be some exceptions. And the best skaters will be strong in all areas.

That's what makes it so hard to set level playing fields for "adults" as a general class, even at the same basic skill level.

I luv to ruffle feathers! I had no problem getting all my bronze elements in with the old time frame. You just have to skate faster.

Never said I had a double sal.

Two lower back operations have made catch foot spins an impossibility. Staying in shape and skating with speed makes jumping far more feasable.

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

WOW!

Well the extra 10 secs will give skaters more time for transitions and choreo, to show off their good stroking and edge quality.

Well your tirades do sound a bit preschool-ish....

You see that in kid skating, too, esp in Juv and Int, where kids are usually just doing doubles (and single axels). Spins and footwork make up a greater share of total points. On one hand, I like that it allows for kids with strong skills in non-jump areas to be rewarded - but OTOH there are 6 jump elements compared to 3 spins and 1 footwork sequence - shouldn't jumps count more, or should they? It seems at the elite level, things are starting to swing back more toward jumps, with only 3 spins now allowed at both Jr and Sr. I kind of liked how skaters who weren't necessarily great jumpers could still place high if they were strong in other areas (Katrina Hacker), but then you wonder if that really encourages skaters to push the envelope technically. But now I worry that the jumps have increased in importance (particularly with the overzealous downgrading) and we'll have the theoretical 'gymnastics on ice'. I guess there's no perfect system.....but I would favor adjusting point values for adult comps, as well as Juv and Int.

I think you just hit the nail on the head. In adult skating, there are many different backgrounds and experience levels, even within the same competitive level. You've got skaters who started at age 5, age 13, during/right after college, age 30, age 50, and everywhere in between. Some skaters who started young took time off during high school and college, some didn't, and some tested when they were younger and some didn't. And some did ISI as kids. Beyond the restrictions based on past testing, there's really nothing that can make everything equal. If you are going to compete in adult comp, you need to be prepared for a wide range of skating ability and experience in your group. As the saying goes, you can only control how you skate.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

When I made my new bronze program to fit the new time limit, I guess I had a choice between adding another spin or doing a fuller step sequence. The old program had just barely enough steps to meet the straight line covering half the ice surface requirement. The new one has a complete circle.

And I'm still doing "more" spins because I'm doing two that both have a change of foot and a change of position.

If bronze rules insisted that I could not get credit for two CCoSp, then I'd have to put a step between the two halves of the first spin so they'd count as two separate spins.