Finally...

http://hometown.aol.com/newskates/SCofCNY9.html

Well I guess I'm not competing against many people - Young Adult Bronze is from 8:00-8:05am!!! Geez, I hope I'm not the only one...

Figures that I compete at 8am Saturday, then not again until 1pm Sunday. Guess I'll be able to go home after all.

Jocelyn

That seems pretty odd to allocate 5 min. for the event when you have a 5 minute warm up......hmmmm....I think I would call and see what the situation is, then decide if it is worth it to go for that event. Maybe they would let you skate in Bronze I so you would have some competition at least? I know I have competed with a young woman several times who was under age 25 and was allowed to skate in regular adult non-qualifying events.

I emailed the chair and she said another skater from New England entered the event as well (I am assuming the skater who posted here before, can't remember her name). Perhaps they are thinking they can start a bit early since it's the first event of the day, who knows. At least I'll get a silver for my efforts even if I fall all over the place! :-)

Jocelyn

Good luck then! I actually wanted a Silver last time out, as I didn't have any that color.....My coach thought I was nuts...

I noticed they left ten minutes for our dance group. That seems like more than necessary for two Americans. I wonder how many there actually are? Probably 3?

Wow, and there's only 10 minutes for Bronze Ladies I? I suppose there's just not that many people competing this year. Ten minutes sounds like three competitors...could that really be?

Someone told me there's only going to be about 35 Bronze I women at Nationals this year. I picked the right year to have a baby...

35 Bronze I ladies at AN??? That's shocking. There were 60-something when I went. Do you think it's the economy? Personally, I'm not going because I'm not skating at my peak yet after a long back problem. Also I hurried up to pass Silver before the MITF became mandatory, so I'm really not competitive at Silver right now. Not even close. Can't spin. No sir, can't spin.

I think we may be seeing a shift in the numbers as a result of all of us rushing to test up. The majority may not think they are "ready" to be competitive at AN in their new level? I know I don't. I find it very interesting.....and I'm not sure about the economy being the primary factor. I thought all along that instituting mandatory moves would eventually impact the numbers...but didn't think it would have such an effect so soon......

I think if the numbers are down this year at ANs (which I hope they aren't...we need money coming into this event!) it will be a combination of economy, but also the testing deadline.

I know one guy who isn't coming because he couldn't pass the test before the deadline. And since he'd won his current level last year, he didn't see the point in competing again this year in the same level. Though I'm sure his competitors don't mind!

We always lose some competitors to injuries, jobs, children, etc, but we do gain a few every year in those who just turn 25.

I find it very interesting that in Championship Masters Ladies that while the numbers for Easterns are the same as last year, Mids doubled in size, and Pacifics also got larger. So I think some new 25 year olds have arrived!

I wonder... I'll email her back and ask. Ten minutes is an awful lot for the American. I personally was very surprised and a bit disappointed to see that they are also holding "regular" competition categories as well. I like the idea of an adult-only competition.

Jocelyn, who won't be able to do any of the practice ice either

I was thinking the same thing... it's almost like the adult sectionals is an afterthought to the other event. It would have been nice if all the adult events were to take place on one day, but perhaps that was not possible due to scheduling. I will not be able to watch Sunday's events since I will fly out at 11 that morning. At least the Saturday qualifying events occur at a reasonable time, not too early or late.

As for the AN turnout numbers, I heard that overall there will be 631 entrants, slightly higher than last year. Still, there are some events such as Bronze I ladies with a lower turnout. Also, as some evidence of the "testing up" theory, this will be the first year in some time (at least since I've been attending AN) that there will be more Gold I men (5) than Silver I (3) or Bronze I men (2). I was one of those that rushed to beat the MIF deadline in September.

I'm not really surprised at the numbers, and expect the overall number to go down over the next few years, and the composition of skaters to change significantly - and don't believe it's the economy. The moves requirements result in a greater time period between skaters moving up from level to level, and starting from the begining to replace those who do move up. I also believe the numbers of skaters returning for multiple AN's will decrease. Many adults will simply not have the time to devote to passing moves and then freestyle, and will be stuck at a level for quite some time - which can get pretty dull not to mention frustrating. It's also a sticky situation for those that do medal and can not move up.

Where I do see an increase will be in the returning skaters - those who skated as kids but did not test far. These skaters will be able to pass the moves tests and free tests at a greater rate than those begining as adults, and will thus be able to advance throught the levels in reasonable time, and not become as frustrated or bored.

The next couple of years will be interesting to watch. To get an accurate picture of where the adult movement is and where it is going we really have to look not only at the total numbers, but the composition of skaters. I think there will still be money flowing into adult skating, but it will become a very different program that what it has been the past 10 years. The USFSA has been looing for a way to keep Adult Nationals at a managable size. Looks like they found it.

Speaking of this year's AN, does anyone know when the schedule and groups will be posted?

I'm sure the AN schedule won't be posted until March 15th, at the earliest.

Interesting numbers. Overall increase, but a decrease in certain groups. Hmmm.

flo, I think you're right about the effect the mandatory Moves will have on AN and adult comps in general. I think once the "beat the clock" rush settles down, we'll see big bottlenecks at Bronze and Silver.

I agree, too, with your comments about returning skaters increasing in the ranks of "adult skaters." I'm not entirely sure I'm crazy about it, though. Nothing against the skaters, because I think it's great there are other adult skaters who love to skate like I do. But I don't want to see USFSA lose those of us who really are adult onset skaters. At Governing Council last year, everytime someone in a general session made a comment about adult skaters (e.g., as a source of potential judges), they clearly meant returning adult skaters. I'm afraid USFSA is going to slowly and quietly start ignoring adult onset skaters.

And, quite frankly and selfishly, I don't want to compete against somebody who skated as a Pre-Juvenile kid! I know there has to be a way of grouping adults, and this may have seemed like the thing to do at the time, but I see a real difference in the two groups. Maybe once the nubmers of returning adults reach some critical mass, they should just expand the Masters category all the way down to Pre-Juv. And leave the Adult category to the adult onsetters.

Well, I can see I look forward to a warm welcome from my competitors when I finally turn 25 in three years.

Jocelyn

Jeez, Jocelyn, no need to roll eyes. I said I don't have anything against the skaters. And I don't have a problem with "returning adults." But philosophically, I don't think adult onset skaters should be competing against them, and I don't think USFSA should ignore us. What's so bad about that? Jeez.

Jocelyn,
At An you'll get as warm a welcome as you give. The returning skaters have been very supportive of the adults, and we of them. The original goal of the adult movement was to provide a venue for skaters who learned to skate as adults, and we have worked for this for many years (before and after the first AN). We are also glad there is an event for returning skaters, but not as a replacement for the adults. There's room for both to compete, but not against each other.

Well, the only "attitude" I've ever gotten from adult competitors was from some young adult gold/masters competitors a few years back. Everyone else I have met has been quite nice, so I'm not basing this in reality really. :-)

I think I'm just frustrated because I'm always going to be in that somewhat outsider group. I started too old to do the usual things (Regionals, Empire State Games), and I started too young to really "belong" with adult skaters. Even when I turn 25, I won't be competing Masters (unless something striking happens to my freestyle in the next few years), I will be competing in Championship Gold. It seems like unless you started at 7 or 25, there isn't a place in the competitive world for you - Masters is intended for those who started at 7 and took a break somewhere along the lines until 25.

I can understand your frustration at child skaters who are becoming adults turning the adult skating scene into something it wasn't intended to be, but try to understand mine in that I have never even had a proper scene to belong to!

Jocelyn

"There's room for both to compete, but not against each other."

I have to disagree considering I placed last in all three events I entered in DC. I am a returning skater and I do not have any magical skills.

Consider my story:

I skated as a child and passed my Juvenile FS test in 1982. My entire competitive career as a child consisted of a whopping 4 ISIA competitions at my home rink. From 1983 until 2000, I stepped on ice a grand total of 4 times. This means I have to compete at the Silver level. At the competition in DC, I placed last in all three events I entered. I was hardly a threat to anyone and the skaters that placed ahead of me had learned as adults (to my best knowledge)

I also think it's easy for people to forget that the "returning skaters" came from a different era in skating. When I passed my Juvenile FS test there was no axle requirement (or I never would have passed). Back then there was only Preliminary and Juvenile (not all this pre- stuff) Preliminary was considered an "encouragement" test to get the skater interested in USFSA testing. Also since the figures tests were mandatory requirements you didn't see the freestyle elements like you do now. Back then a Juvenile skater's program was very different and not at all like today. Partially because women were only just starting to do triples at the elite level and partially because you had to spend 50% of your time on school figures which significantly impacted FS skills. It wasn't until 1980.

It really depends more on how much the returning skater skated in the interim, athletic ability, etc.

Jocelyn,

I have encountered people who snarl at me if I say I skated as a child. Certainly the type of comments above have made me feel unwelcome in the past but fortunately people with that sort of attitude are not in abundance. For the most part you will find adult skaters to be supportive of each other.

LW

But right now, both groups are competing together, as long as the returners never passed Intermediate FS. It's worst at the younger age groups.

I know adults who had had axels and double jumps as kids, but never tested past Juvenile and have come back as soon as they turned 25 for the sole purpose of winning the medals they never got as children (I know this because they were dumb enough to BRAG about it to me!). This, to me, is just wrong and I'd like to see USFSA come up with some way of differentiating between the two groups so that people who learned to skate after age 25 are not put in the same group with people who learned the same skills as kids.

That doesn't seem to be on the Adult Skaters Committee's agenda, though, so I'm betting that within a few years most of the competitors at Adult Nationals (and definitely the medalists) will be people who skated as kids and came back after a break for school and/or marriage and kids, or who simply never stopped at all.

Joceyln, I think there are probably quite a few skaters in your situation. This is why the young adult categories were created. I hope they get supported to give this stuck group a chance to compete.

Lwalsh, returning skaters may very well be from a different era and may not have had to do an axel when testing as a kid, but they did learn to skate as kids. The majority of skaters who learned to skate as kids have an ease and flow or strength about them that those starting as adults do not. If you put a returning skater on the ice - axel or no - and just ask them to do crossovers and compare these with adult skaters, in the majority of cases you can differentiate between the two - who skated as a kid, and who did not.
A friend of mine skated as a kid, but did primarily figures. She did not jump well - no axel, and is not a strong jumper now. 30 + years and as she puts it "as many pounds later" her skating is beautiful. She also has to compete in silver, and her skating makes up for the jumps.

Those types of people are sandbaggers - they show bad sportsmanship and maybe there should be some type of way to discipline them. However, please don't lump all returning adults in with those people.

I'm a returning adult. I never tested past Juvenile, but did test on the ISIA track. I had doubles through a loop when I quit at age 16, 22 years ago. I'm sure that the USFSA hasn't run a check on me to see what ISIA level I passed, but I know that the rules say I have to compete at Gold, so I am. This is although, realistically looking at the content of my program and what I am currently able to do, I am skating at the Silver level.

I really do not see how much of an advantage that I would have over somebody who started skating at 30, has skated for 8 years, and is at Gold. We both are 38 year old skaters at the same level. It doesn't matter what level you are at, or what age, some skaters are going to be better than others for whatever reason - the time they spend on the ice practicing, their natural talent, etc. I don't know - maybe I'll change my mind after I see my first adult competition this weekend.

Maybe it's different at the lower levels or at the younger age groups. Maybe the system isn't perfect. However, is there a practical solution to the adult-onset vs. returnee issue that would be fair in the eyes of everyone? Probably not.

Have you ever heard the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner?" It *sort of* applies to my attitude about this. Could I please go on record as saying I have never and would never be rude to returning adult skaters that I encounter. I have nothing against people who compete fairly under the existing rules. What I have a problem with is the rules. So don't go assuming this means I harbor some animosity towards returning adult skaters. I don't. I'm smart enough and mature enough to make the distinction between the rules and the skaters. Please don't make assumptions about my behavior.

I agree 100% with flo's comments about the nature of the advantage returning adult skaters have. It's not necessarily the tricks. It's the skating. Having the muscle memory of moving on the ice, no matter how deeply buried that memory may be, makes a big difference. As a sweeping generalization, a returning skater simply looks and moves differently on the ice. You really can tell when you put them side by side. And, incidentally, this helps returning adult skaters generally pick up the tricks faster and "better" than adult onset skaters.

And I think USFSA would be nuts if they started ignoring adult onset skaters. We do a heck of a lot of work at the club and regional level. They would be wise to cultivate our membership, not alienate us.