For those of you who are concerned that the competittion has gotten tougher, but at the same time are worried that there are fewer starts at AN, you may want to look at the other side of the coin. This year at Lake Placid was my first Adult Nationals and I placed well and had a good time. However, I received a lot of nasty comments related to my skating ability and how I "should move up" and I "don't look like I belong" and how I just did well "because I'm young". I have read some comments in this thread that are along the same lines. For the record, I'm in about the middle of my age category and I am competing at the level that the USFSA decided to put me at based on my test accomplishments. It's also the level that seemed most matched to my skills based on what is and is not required/allowed in a FS program. And no, I'm not holding back on testing to be at a certain level and win.

After I heard some of these comments (yes, they did get to me) I was upset that people would think this about me! But then I watched the video of my final round and I realized that the entire group was very close to my skill level. I didn't think I stood out at all. So I guess all these negative comments are mostly "sour grapes". However, they seemed intentionally hurtful, as well as pretty unexpected from adults. I thought these kinds of things only happened at the kid's competitions, and the adults were all encouraging and supportive. I guess I was wrong about that and it makes me hesitant to attend another Adult Nationals. So those of you who are making these kind of comments may want to watch it, or you will scare more people away. Of course, I guess if you are mean enough to the people who beat you, maybe they won't come back and you would win. To me, that kind of victory would be even more meaningless and hollow than a victory over people who might not be quite as skilled as you. I guess that what I am trying to say is, if you want more competitors at Adult Nationals, don't make negative comments about ANY of them. There's always going to be a skater that comes in 1st place as well as a skater who comes in last place.

Also, don't criticize someone until you have walked in their shoes (or skated in their boots). There are many reasons for not moving up a level other than sandbagging to win. Has anyone heard the story about how Michelle Kwan secretly tested her senior free and her coach, Frank Carroll, was really angry because he felt she wasn't ready to move up? The coach and the skater know what is best.

Fortunately, I did meet lots of very friendly and positive people in Lake Placid! It makes up for all the negativity.

That is terrific that your club is supportive. I think a lot of clubs are missing the boat by not supporting adult skaters, however. Believe me, I've tried the volunteer route. Every adult that has been a board member in my old club is now an individual member. I finally gave up too. Even though several of us have medaled at AN, we have never heard so much as "congrats".....yet when the kids go to Regionals you'd swear it was the Olympics. I was actually told that my medal did not count because it was pewter, and that AN was not a "real" competition anyhow.

I was looking forward to seeing the survey and must admit that I was disappointed in the content.

There is a significant undercurrent of unhappiness with the direction adult skating has taken and I think that is part of the reason starts may be down in the lower levels - it's not only the required MIF structure or freestyle tests or even age categories.

This undercurrent actually started several years ago and others echoed my thoughts at the time. I don'tfeel it was properly addressed in the survey although people could always add a page of their own thoughts to the survey.

The true adult skater (who never put on skates until they were an adult) being pushed further down the competitive ladder as returning skaters skills put them up the ladder.

The competitiveness snarking was becoming more like the kids - the atmosphere has changed since the first AN.

The judges still didn't get the picture, both on how to correctly mark the adult, and a number still have prejudices against adult skaters even testing - "oh, just have fun" or "adults do dance" as if freestyle was beyond our dreams.

Clubs still are not supportive of adult skaters.
Rinks still are not supportive of adult skaters.

Should another survey be done, I would be interested in learning more specifically about the adult skater like:
Did you ever skate as a child - a little, fairly regular, took lessons (group, private)
Did you start skating after the age of 25, what age?
How did you start; On my own, on my own with a friend who knows how to skate, Learn to Skate program, rink group lessons, private lessons
What type of rink sessions do you skate on; public, club, rink open sessions, adult only sessions, always with the kids.
How many hrs a week do you skate
Is there a Club at your rink - USFS, ISI, local town club, no club
Did you join; USFS, ISI, local club (some town rinks have their own clubs)
Have you ever tested USFS/ISI MIF; Freestyle
If not, why not; do it on my own with coach, coach does not encourage it,
standards too difficult, do not have enough time, I've heard too many horror stories of unfair judging, not enough money, lack of adult skating support (no other adult skaters around, adults at my rink don't test,) no room for 'individual USFS' members at club testing sessions.
When you tested, did you feel the judges were understanding of adult requirements?
If you tested, did you find the overall experience satisfactory, discouraging, encouraging, exciting?
Does the thought of competing/testing with other adults who are returning skaters discourage you, not bother you at all, somewhat bothers you?
Do you ever wish there was a testing/competing structure specifically for adults who truly learned to skate as adults?

Remember the Vision 2008 speaks of medals, money, and a club in every rink. The USFS is goal oriented. So to reach goals, bring in the younger skaters who retain their skills, set up international competitions, and bring in the money. Yes, I feel these skaters should continue to skate if they truly love it. I just feel the adult skater who learned as an adult is being pushed aside to make room for returning skaters.

All this is just my opinion.

I too, as a non-FS skater, was not 100% impressed with the survey questions. I felt that the wording of some of the questions was front-loaded towards the responses desired by some of the FS skaters.

I definitely think a good demographics analysis of the adult skating community needs to be done and made available to the appropriate committees (Singles/Pairs, Adult, etc) and available to the adult skating world.

Besides the demographics questions mentioned in the previous posting, perhaps one question should include something like the following: "if skated as a kid, please annotate tests passed"

Skateflo -

Well put! I like your questions, I think they really get to the heart of adult skating.

Spreadeagle -- I'm sorry people were nasty to you, and I'm sorry that you see nastiness in this thread. I think there are very real issues and frustrations on both sides, and it doesn't help for anyone to cut anyone else down. I do think more snarkiness has developed in adult competitions, but I have no idea why, although in general my own experiences have been positive. And since I wasn't there, I don't know how different people might have perceived your program in your group. You know, sometimes things on video look completely different than they do live; maybe you had more speed that didn't show up on the video? I dunno, I'm just trying to suggest an alternative explanation for people thinking that you were above that level. Maybe you're right about the sour grapes, I've seen that too. Regardless of what people thought, if you were at the level that the USFS organization decided was appropriate, then those people should be ashamed of themselves, and especially for being nasty about it. Whatever your circumstances, they should be ashamed of themselves!

I think people are expressing frustration with their own situation, on both sides of the issue. I haven't reviewed the whole thread, but I don't remember anyone specifically criticizing others, although maybe you meant the nasty comments that got back to you at nationals.

And Skateflo -- I really liked your post as well, and agreed with everything you said.

Pat

sk8pics, thanks for your kind words. I can understand that people are frustrated that skill levels are increasing while they seem to be "left behind", I just wish that instead of making this a negative thing, they could use it as a new goal to strive for. And I just wanted to let people know that there is another side to the story. I think the negative comments I heard in Lake Placid are still ringing in my ears and making me feel like everyone is "out to get me", which is probably why I detected negative tones in this thread.

Having said that, there was one comment in particular in this thread that I felt was unnecessary and negative:

The woman in question has jumps and spins that are on a par with the majority of all the other Bronze competitors. She CAN jump and spin. To say that she cannot is insulting. Her jumps and spins are not Sasha Cohen quality, but that's probably why she is competing in Bronze!

I really hope that the increased level of competitiveness amongst adults doesn't drive anyone away, but instead motivates them to work that much harder on their skills! Then the medal, when they do win it, will be that much more satisfying!

ITA Spreadeagle. Hopefully by my first AN, I will have my Novice moves and Silver dances. Neither of those tests will make me any more likely to have a consistent axel or any whiff of doubles though!

Yeah, Spreadeagle, I agree with this idea, but it's easy to become discouraged. I know that, hard as I may work, I will never be at a level with someone my age who skated a lot as a kid.

Actually, the original comment had confused me, and it sounded to me like she is planning to move up to silver, not stay in bronze. Either way, she has to decide what's best for her just like everyone else.

BTW Speadeagle, I like your forum name because I just learned how to do a spread eagle about a month ago! It was very exciting to me because I'd never thought I'd be able to do one. It's a baby spread eagle, more like an eaglette but still it's cool.

Pat

Anyone who has additional comments about the survey, or topics not covered in the survey is free (as they always have been) to contact the adult skating chair.
skateflo - the date of birth and date you started skating is asked for (questions 3 and 4), the rest is simple math. The USFSA has records of all adult testing. Additional comments concerning feelings of fairness and such in judging would be best presented in a thoughtful letter to the committee.
Jenlyon60 - a demographics analysis has been conducted and presented. There were no questions "front-loaded towards the responses desired by some of the FS skaters" The questions were developed to be as open as possible while still being able to gather meaningful and measurable information. And all tests passed were asked for (question 6).
I think it may be important for all of us to remember is that the adult committee and is made up of volunteers. For all of you wishing changes in the current system - I would suggest you do something positive in that direction. Not everyone has a supportive club to work with, or has the time or can be a delegate or active club member, but if we all have the time to complain, then we also can take the time to send a constructive letter.

I thought of this last night as maybe a good description of how I feel at skating competitions against those who skated as children:

It's like I'm running in a race, except that some of the other racers get to start about 10 feet in front of me. Did that make me want to be better and practice more? Yes, at first it did...I was driven and absolutely determined. I worked 10+ hours a week. I worked off-ice, I worked so hard the people at the rink gave me a nick-name "The Determminator". I spent $200/month on lessons and even more on practices....up to $600/month on skating total. I worked with a coach in the morning and then went to work late, meaning that I had to stay at work until later in the evening. I ate lunch at my desk. I stretched for half-an-hour before every practice.

But sure enough, at the next race, there were those runners up there, starting 10 feet ahead of me. By that time, some were actually starting 15 feet ahead of me.

Anyway, as I was up feeding my baby last night, I thought about that and thought that it was a good analogy for how I felt.

Iskater, I am so impressed with your dedication! It is no wonder I cannot get my alternating 3s, I only skate one freestyle a week and one public skate. I wish I could afford to do more and maybe this is another issue for some of us returning to skating, not being able to dedicate the time or money to properly train for our previous level of skating. As a kid I skated about 5 hours a week, more if I count public skates. I wish I had the answer, but I suppose that it will not be settled any time soon, instead we all must do what's best for our own skating.

Iskater,

You sound a lot like me. The good news is that while there are some I will never catch.............I have placed ahead of skaters younger than my daughter on occassion!!!! Of course, now I'm at the age where just hanging onto what I have takes 10 hours a week on the ice, plus lessons, lessons and more lessons (or was, when I was actually on the ice).

Time, money, and in some cases middle-aged bodies!

There is one skater I know who has competed in almost every Adult Nationals there has been, except one year when she was out through injury. She has almost always come last in her class, but has continued to compete, and thoroughly enjoy herself, every year - and this year, she not only didn't come last in her freestyle class, but finished very nearly half-way up the lists in her Interpretive! I am just so pleased for her!

I'm in a similar case - we bob around the bottom of our level in dance, trying not to come last and being incredibly pleased with ourselves when we don't! But skating wouldn't be the same without competitions! On the other hand, as one of my friends commented the other day, there is the tension between preparing for competition, as we are doing right now, and ever learning any new dances well enough to enjoy them! Ah well.....

__________________
Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

To Flo - my 'survey' questions were more for tryiing to find out why people are not testing or competing. The AN survey did address this in the moves section. There was not a question about why someone is not competing at all - except implying that you had competed and now either are decreasing or increasing your number of competitions. Some may be testing but not competing. But regardless, I will be sending a personal letter along with my survey to AN.

As we have seen via several threads on this particular message group, there are a number of issues that are effecting adult skating. I just feel that those on the local level who are not testing or competing should have a voice and their voices too should be heard. I would think the USFS would want to know why these adults are not participating more.

I also still stand by an earlier expression that surveys by the PSA and the judges would be helpful. They view adults from a different perspective. I know my coach has made comments about teaching adults and how it differs so much, physically and psychologically, that I have to wonder if other coaches are finding similar roadblocks and how they help the adult skater deal with them.

Judges too have their difficulties. With the overall number of competitions happening judges are being spread very thin. Adults may be skating before judges that have no clue or have their own prejudices. I know, that's life, and no one said life was fair.

Skateflo - As I said all comments are welcome. As far as those not testing or competing, it may be of interest to find out why, but after that you will not have the same experience base as those who do test and compete to comment on the current program (which is testing and competing). Also, any proposals or changes made from the results of the survey will not have as great (if any) impact on those not testing and competing as it will on those participating. With limited time and the number of current issues the priority is the active skaters.

Having read most of what has been said here plus attending AN as a spectator rather than a competitor, let me throw in my 2 cents.

As a 58 year old figure skater, I have every intention of competing some day, if only once just to say I did it. The problem I find is that it takes a long time to get your feet to do what the brain wants. I have been working on the alternating 3's for about 6 months now and yes they are coming along but the process is sometimes painfully slow, but I am getting there. I think older adults need a lot more patience than young adults and kids...trying watching your niece do the forward pre-juv pattern perfectly on the third try...that's enough to make any adult quit.

Another thing which I see implied is that the older skaters have more respect for the younger skaters than the younger skaters do for the older. I know the answer to that one. Older skaters remember what it was like to be young, but there is no way that a younger skater can imagine what it is to be older. For this reason, older skaters will always have problems testing or competing before younger judges. To make the adult skating world more balanced, I think any committee should include some older skaters.

Just my $.10...a penny doesn't go as far as it use to!!

__________________
Keeping School Figures Alive!!

After reading all of this, I can really find substance for my stance of "no testing and no competing". It would be too frustating.

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Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. - Henry David Thoreau

I didn't skate as a kid I was a gymnast but I get asked this alot. Normally I don't compete but I was at adult nationals and truthfully, I skate for fun and I don't listen to negative talk. If you listen to what people have to say and let it affect you you definitely won't enjoy skating. I don't care what other people say and do, I just care about what I do and how I feel about skating. I don't need medals or accolades, I just feel good about myself. If you want to compete and get medals, if you get a medal, feel good and proud and ignore negative speak and if you don't get a medal or feel other people have beaten you unfairly because of levels, age groups.....maybe competition isn't for you. I still like adult nationals and I think that anyone who goes should go because they love skating, not to show off or complain about the aftermath of doing well/not doing well.

Another nickel from me. I'll be broke soon

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Careygram

January: Sure I'll compete, quick, send the application
April: I signed up to do WHAT??

Thanks Flo for your explanation and who the survey was targeted too. I guess I misunderstood the goal. I will still send in my survey along with my letter tomorrow. Your explantion also explained what the priorities are for the adult committee. At least they are trying to understand part of the problem and I commend them for that.

Well we all develope at different paces. I did skate when I was younger. In my teens for about 7 years. When I stepped back the ice now 16+ years later it's really not the same. I started at the same time another lady did She may be about 5 years younger than me - Maybe? She had never skated as a child. She has learned everything quicker and better than I have. She's already doing full rotation jumps while I'm not even jumping at all. Just because I skated when I was younger does not always mean I would be the better skater in a competition. There are so many factors involved Ice Time, Coach, Equipment, off ice-training, a just down right natural ability. I would hate to be made to skate, test or compete at higher levels than I am really ready for just because I skated as a child. Adversely to that - I know that because I skated when I was younger I had a better sence of balance right off the bat this time. I think for the pre-bronz and bronz levels the fact that you skating in youth may make a difference, but once we get to silver and especially Gold levels I think it pretty much evens the field out.
Wholly cow - I just babbled a whole bunch and never even made a point. I quess my point is that everyone developes at different paces and I don't think it's fair to single out one group of adult skaters from another just because they skated as children. I suck now - I did as a child too. Please don't penalize my for that.
cid

But bless their hearts..........they really think if we want if enough, we can do anything we put our minds to.

I figure if the top skaters eventually stop doing triples, then start to limit their doubles..........I'm really in trouble at 50 and barely Silver.

Once again, I write before I think. I competed against the skater in question, and I was in the locker room, trying to avoid the mayhem that is AN's. My coach, who has been coaching all levels for 30 years, came into the locker room absoultely livid after she skated. Her opinion: "She does not belong in bronze. She is a gold level blade-to-ice skater." I watched the DVD. Yes, in terms of her jumping and spinning, she is a mid-level bronze skater. But she should have been in silver, if not gold considering the overall quality of her skating. When I said she couldn't jump or spin, I meant "as a silver or gold, which is probably her appropriate level based on the quality of her skating," not that she couldn't jump or spin whatsoever.

I knew going in that I had no chance to make final round. And I knew that I wouldn't skate my best. Trying to deal with my off-ice life was sapping all of my skating energy. But I had two friends who used the level of skating in the final group from last year as a base for their training for this year. And they got creamed. The irony is, none of us really wanted to win or medal. We just wanted to skate well and be competitive. Well, after the morning warm-up, I thought a judge would have come over to my coach and asked me to leave, that they didn't know why I deserved to be there.

I know that it's normal for the skating ability to be higher than the level for the kids, but since our Nationals are funded by entry fees, we are going to lose starts if the competitive level of a Bronze skater at AN's is dramatically above a typical Bronze. And that's what I'm upset about. I'm certainly not going to encourage my friends who stayed at home this year to enter next year unless they have strong silver-level elements.

And if I'm callous or pissy, sorry. I just feel like if you are at a high level in moves or dance, you shouldn't be a bronze--no matter how poorly you jump or spin. Bronze is a beginner level, and I just felt like my friends, one of whom we thought would be a shoo-in for finals, were competing against a stacked deck because they are progressing at a normal pace. And one of my friends has passed her pre-juv moves and bronze dances!

What's best for me...good question. My point was that before I test my silver free, I'm going to pass 1) pre-bronze and bronze dance 2)pre-juv moves and 3) silver moves, because that's the only way I will feel competitive enough to schlep out the $120 to compete. (I want to feel like I'm skating against peers, not higher-level skaters--that's what Gold is for.) And if I am a bronze on Jan 15th, there will be someone complaining about me next year. At this point, I really don't care.

Erin

Erin,

To be honest, I think that's the way to go. Wait until you're a great Bronze....

As for the child-skater thing that I was discussing above. Yes, obviously there are exceptions (child-skaters that haven't skated in many, many years...one of my previous posts talks about a lady in that very situation who was required to skate Silver and there was no way she could be competitive at that level). That's why I also said in my previous posts that there were no good answers.

If I had it in for all child-skaters, then I would have said that the USFSA should not allow anyone who skated as a child to compete at AN. But that's so obviously not the right answer because of people like you and the lady that I used to skate with. So really, as I keep saying there's no good answer, which is one of the reasons why I don't complain to the USFSA...I don't feel like I should complain unless I have a good alternative.

Of course, keep in mind though, that if there were rules set to keep the "better moves but lousy jumps and spins skaters" out, the sandbaggers will simply NOT test but keep practicing their moves.

Believe me, I'm not looking forward to eventually competing at Bronze FS, given what I'm reading here. I certainly don't have the speed or the moves for it, much less the FS part of it. Certainly I've been tempted to just stay pre-Bronze despite that until I'm "competitive enough." But my goal was simply to pass Bronze FS and be eligible to compete at AN. I'd be delighted to just make it to the final round, but I don't expect to at least for another couple of years or so... and I'm okay with that, since I'm there for the experience of being at AN (and the competitor's party ) -- nothing else!

Edited to add: Besides, if I have to wait 'til I'm a great Bronze FS skater to compete at AN, it will NEVER happen!!! I just don't have that physical "ballerina form" and will never develop that. So I'll just work with what God gave me and see how it comes out in the end.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!