Hi guys,

I've seen several threads on the demerits of coaches rushing kids through basics in favour of more glitzy jumps and spins. However, what are your thoughts on this in an adult context - people who aren't necessarily going to build triples on the foundation and have the comprehension to think about what they are doing?

I would like to - and have been told that there is no reason I shouldn't be able to - land doubles eventually. It's not that I don't enjoy footwork - I really do! - but nothing seems to be as limited as jumps by age.

I notice that some of the other adult skaters/their coaches seem to be rushing through the elements. There's a girl who started around when I did and, without wanting to sound mean, she can do quite a few elements technically but they are not pretty. She is starting on flip but her waltz jumps have little distance or height, for example. Her edges, extension and power are not great, but enough to see her through. But her coach's philosophy seems to be to do it all, then come back and tidy up.

I guess I'm a little bit concerned. My coach is exceptionally precise (dancer!), which I appreciate, and I realise that having rock solid MITF and singles is a great starting point - on the other hand, I'm not getting younger and one can improve edges, positions and power at any age?

Thoughts? Am I being too paranoid?

Those adults you see rushing though elements are typically not going to do well with those elements because they have poor basics. Many people get their Axel in their 30s and 40s as long as their basics are SOLID. They take a different path to Axels and doubles but it's equivalent (typically in time) to the adult who rushes to work on these elements and the one with solid basics typically has a better difficult element than one who rushes to work on it. Dis-Axel anyone?

How long have you been skating, i mean when did you start?

All of the jumps and spins are based on GOOD fundamentals....pay now or pay later is what i say. I get taken right back to the basics when i am trying something difficult, even the axel. And also, nothing is uglier than a program with sloppy connecting moves. Perhaps you can talk to your coach about this, and see if you may wish to have an edge coach and a jump coach and see what he/she says.

My 3-turns improved further with the sal and toe-loop practice and I heavily suspect my group class coaches of having given me more difficult footwork to do on occasion only to clean up my more basic stuff more quickly after just practicing it was clearly not helping at all, and yeah it worked. So pushing it certainly helped me on occasion. I've seen ppl try to learn waltz jumps without having a comprehension of the edges though, that's pushing it too far I think.

I've seen a lot of adults rush through the basics, picking them up quickly whether through natural talent or impatience, to get to "the fun stuff" of jumps and spins, and then eventually get stuck on something because their basics aren't sound. They get frustrated with the sudden lack of progress, resist "going back" to work on basics and eventually quit.

Whereas the ones who plug doggedly on the basics, keep working edges and turns and stroking along with "the fun stuff" stick around a lot longer and in the end have more fun with skating.

Think about what makes up a program. What do you spend the majority of the time dedicated to--jumping and spinning, or connecting steps? No one is going to care that you have a nice loop jump and a nice scratch spin if what you do getting from one to the next is not just as pleasant to watch.

There are 2 male adult skaters in my area (both have yet to compete). One just turned 18, the other is 25. I've seen the 18 year old, who has only been skating for a year, land axels, double toes, and double sals, but he can hardly do a 3-turn and it's really hard to watch him do his program because his basic skating skills aren't good at all. And neither are his jumps really--he just flings himself into the air and lands on one foot. And he has combination spins, but like everything else, they're a big sloppy mess. I never see his coach working on him with moves or just basic skating. The 25 year old, on the other hand, has been skating for a few years. He spends hours and hours (probably 60% or more of his time on the ice) on stroking, turns and basic skating skills. He may not have doubles, but he's much more pleasing to watch because his basic skills are strong for his level (he's on bronze, could pass his silver). In the long run, he'll be a lot better off. He'll get his doubles eventually, and probably be able to keep them because he's taken so much time to focus on technique and basic skills. And he'll probably suffer a lot less injuries because he's taking time to learn and not flinging himself into the air. (Along those lines, we have another guy at my rink who used to fling himself in the air like that and after constantly hurting himself and not seeing improvement and not doing as well as he'd like in competitions, he finally realized it's time to go back and start at the beginning and learn better technique.)

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Waltz Jumps aren't hard. It's just a step up from a bunny hop.

The edges isn't my worry - IRT waltz Jumps, it's the fact that most of the skaters I see doing them have no concept of weight transfer and their landing positions are horrible.

And there isn't anything that makes me cringe more than skaters who abuse the toepicks on jump landings, and terrible landing positions.

There is one girl here with big jumps, but her posture and landing positions are horrible. Sometimes I want to remind her why Surya Bonaly never won Worlds...

I think waltz jumps are way easier than bunny hops. My experience with beginning adults is most are terrified of bunny hops, but will give a try with waltz jumps- so I know it's not just me.

What do you mean? They drag their toe pick in the landing position? That has nothing to do with the jump- but with poor backward edges.

I can't land my jumps on my toe pick to save my life. They all thud down on the flat.

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Well... I guess it depends on the person. I landed Toe Loop, Flip, and Lutz in Basic 4. I did lots of off-ice jumps (up to Doubles + Double Axel), so they were easy.

Good jumpers can improve their basics, but there are skaters who have excellent basics who will probably never be able to land the types of jumps he's landing.

You don't just fling yourself into the air on double jumps and manage to land them, as a relative beginner. Without at least decent technique, they will fail - often - and those types of falls are enough to let the student know they shouldn't be attempting the element.

If he's landing them consistently and his technique is acceptable, I see no reason why anyone should stop him from practicing them.

EDIT: Also, how can someone "hardly do a 3 turn," but do double toe loops (one 3-turn, unless mohawk entrance) and double salchows (basically two 3-turns, unless he enters from mohawk).

I agree. I haven't done a bunny hop since I had to do them like 3 times in L2Sk8 I find Waltz harder than a flip, personally. I can't stand that forward outside edge takeoff, and since I'm so used to doing Axels off-ice, I have to work too hard to eek out only half a rotation. It's really hard fighting muscle memory.

I mean some skaters land on the toe pick (en point, as if they were in ballet) and spin around to finish the rotation, then drop down to the flat and glide out. It's not that evident on singles, but when they are doing doubles it's very evident. I've seen a skater do like half a rotation on the ice on the toe-pick on a double toe loop, drop down, do another 1.5 toe loop, come down on the toe pick for half a rotation, drop down and glide out.

The coach said "good job" and I almost cried. She never mentioned the URs/cheats, or the bent-legged landing position.

I tend to land a bit flat most times as well, but my coach says that can lead to knee/back issues because you're taking way too much brute force on the landing.

I personally don't like the feeling of landing on the edge of my toepick (not on the whole toepick, just on like the bottom pick somewhat), and it makes me check extremely hard when I don't have to - causing me to dip forward. I don't like it.

If I land my jumps the way I usually do, the landings are great. Can hold them for about 2 big circles

I skate elsewhere from Rachel and know EXACTLY what she's getting at for this. The three turn is unchecked and the skater basically flings into the air in any ol' position and somehow manages to land the jump (consistently). It looks terrible and will eventually lead to injury!

It's not hard to check a 3 turn, so I'd have to see it to make a better judgement. If his basics are so terrible that he can't do a 3-turn properly, then I'm starting to think some unintentional overstating is at play here

If you can't check a 3-turn, I doubt you can land (or rather, do) a double salchow consistently. Off-ice training can fix air position.

I've only been skating for a few months so take this as you will. lol But I know personally I tend to learn things quickly, at least the basics, but it takes me a while to polish them. That takes time. Its been my experience that no matter how quickly you learn something, you still need time to get used to what-ever the thing is and to polish it. I enjoy watching other skaters on the ice, kids up through adults. You can tell quickly how far along someone is in their training and how new they are. When I watch people skate around they automatically do things like crossovers without even thinking about it. Now, speaking for myself, my crossovers are very nice. However I have to think about them when I'm doing them. I have to think about stroking to. And its not because I can't do it, I'm just new. That... polish takes time.

So... Adding new things while a skater gets used to moves seems okay. If I waited until I could do forward and backwards crossovers without thinking about it before adding new things I'd get bored quickly. I like to be challenged so I need new things to work on periodically.

I should think if a skater at least knows how to do the move then moving on is alright. Doesn't mean the skater can stop practicing the move though Honestly I can already tell you how I'll respond when I'll need to string several things together. I won't do it right for a while. For me its two different concepts. I think its a bit like knowing how to add, subtract, multiply and divide then learning about the order of operations. At first you're all over the place and adding where you should be multiplying and subtracting where you should be adding. Good stuff. lol.

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That's exactly what this kid does. It's not a properly checked 3 turn, it's like some sort of helicopter flinging about that starts off forward and winds up backward. He lands them pretty consistently too, I have no clue how, because he's a hot mess taking off, all over the place in the air, and his landing position isn't all that great, either. (And seeing crap like that makes me bang my head against the wall wondering why the heck my stupid axel isn't clean.) He's probably more than 1/4 short so they probably would not get called under IJS, and at least not without major negative GOEs. Sooner or later he's going to hurt himself. I think he gets away with it because he's young (just turned 18) and pretty fearless, has long legs so he can fling himself up easily, and right now he wants to jump jump jump and not work on anything else. Perhaps once he starts testing and competing he'll realize he can't get away with that. Right now he wouldn't be able to pass anything higher than prelim or adult bronze moves or free test based on his skating skills and other technique issues (his camel spin wouldn't pass silver free or the camel/sit on pre-juv, his lutz def would not fly on a pre-juv free test). I have seen him working on prelim moves lately though.

It does seem like guys can get away with the awful jump technique much more so than women. I don't know if it's because they're less cautious, or have more power to get themselves up in the air, or what. But the trade-off is that they seem to have a harder time learning to spin.

Checking a 3 turn actually can be something that's hard for a new or low level skater to get. I see skaters working on the consecutive 3s on prelim moves and struggling with that all the time. That doesn't mean that those same kids can't do salchows.

I may not wear my glasses when I skate, but I'm not so blind that I can't see someone skating with really crappy technique trying things they probably should not be.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Guys are generally (only generally) more powerful than females, so it's easier for them to get enough high to be able to rotate and land jumps.

The spins issue has a little to do with biology as well. Females are generally (again, only generally) more flexible in the hip and back area then men are, and they're also generally lighter, so it's easier for them to get in positions like a sit spin, because they don't have to hold as much weight up. They have less bulky muscles as well (generally!).

The girls my height at the rink (I'm rather short, 5'4") are about average 40 pounds lighter than I am, and I'm in very decent shape. This also makes them a bit less injury prone. Falls aren't as aggressive, for example. (All Skaters can suffer overuse injuries despite body type/weight/etc. however.)

Muscle memory also tends to be harder to overcome :<

Reading the responses on this thread reminds me of Aesop's fable "The Fox and the Grapes". I mean, if you are so convinced that "technique counts" and that everything needs to be "by the book" and perfect, then be happy that YOU are working towards that goal, but don't put the rest of us down who disagree with you. I still say I'd rather have a sloppy triple than a perfect single....But that is just my opinion, and I don't put you down for working on that single.....

And as dreamnmusic rightly points out, all items start out "sloppy." It takes time to refine them. What you think is "rushing" maybe not really be rushing at all. I think skaters (adult or not) naturally gravitate towards their strengths, don't you?

I think adult skaters tend to be perfectionists and they are generally just a little too concerned about doing things "perfectly" instead of going for higher level items. This tends to hamper them in the end and limit their potiential. That is the other side of the coin.

Perhaps the skater was intended to cheat the jump in order to get over the fear of jumping or to get the rotational position right. Girls at my rink do axel-backspin all the time to get to their double axel eventually.

Taking off waltz jumps off a flat is bad because it forces a skater to do some very weird things to get in the air. Also, I was under the impression weight transfer awareness is not expected until one starts learning the loop and flip? *shrug* at my rink it's not expected anyway.

Yes! Let's beat a dead horse!!!

What the heck is the point in doing a lousy double in competition and getting negative GOEs for it and therefore it not being worth as much as a solid, clean, strong single that gets you positive GOEs? Unless you don't give a crap about how you place. Or who is going to want to watch you do harder jumps when the in-between skating, which is the majority of the time in a program, isn't up to par? (And the low PCS marks that will come as a result won't help placement either.)

Wait, haven't we had this conversation on here 7,000 times already?

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2010-2011 goals:
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Don't break anything

I think there is a difference between trying to do things correctly (therefore minimizing risk of injury and maximizing potential in competitions and testing) and doing things "perfectly" (which is unattainable). No one is saying that things have to be done perfectly. However, there are proper ways to do things in the skating world that when one is competing and testing must be taken into consideration. Just landing a jump on one foot isn't enough in competition to do well.

Yes, if you don't want to pass tests or compete at a high level, it is possible to do things incorrectly but do more of them (a sloppy triple may be possible). However, by doing things sloppily or incorrectly, you may not actually be doing the elements you think you are because they are incorrect. And certainly you wouldn't be able to pass higher level testing or do well in competitions. But, that's not your focus, so you probably could get what you want eventually.

As in many things, there is a "correct" way and an "incorrect" way. Similar to math. There is one correct answer and one "proper" way of getting to it. Though you can fudge and do it a different way, and come up with the same answer, it won't be as consistently correct as doing it the "proper" way.

Anyway, to OP: I've definitely seen people who have no clue on the basics throw themselves around. The falls they take are spectacularly scary, even on things like spins and footwork, and they generally burn out faster because they get frustrated when they hit a certain point they just can't get beyond.

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Why does it bother you so much, then? And I see you like to come down on the skaters who jump with "bad" technique without hearing from the other side. How nice of you. Well, I let it go for a while, but if you are going to attack my "side" I will speak up. So sorry.

And....

If what you say is true, then you win, right? So what is your "problem" with the adults that rush? Or have bad technique? After all, you're winning, right? Why do you have to put them down and insult their skating? I mean, what should it matter to YOU? Sour grapes, much?

You might not like me, personally. That's fine. Don't care. But my comment was the truth. The adults I have met are far too concerned about perfection and it holds them back. Period. At the end of the day something can be said for actually doing the item (even with "bad" technique.)

And as for the dead horse....I didn't dig it up....The forum did.... But it's MY horse so naturally I feel a bit of a symapthy for the poor dead thing.... May bring roses....Possibly a wreath....

So how far "off" does something have to be to be incorrect? This is not math. What if the "correct" skater has a bad day and the "incorrect" one stands up? How "bad" is a leg wrap (Nakano)? And there are elites with "toe axels" etc. I guess if your goal is perfection....But that is relative....

Don't understand what you mean by injury. I have fallen on concrete, ice, and wood for over half of my life. Never got a bad injury. A few bangs and scrapes, but nothing bad. I've seen adults with "good" skating skills (MITF) fall on dance steps and break bones......I think a little bubblewrap would fix this injury thing.

And, come on, let's be honest here. Don't you think there are just a few sour grapes in this bunch? Just a few....

I guess what I'm saying (to everyone who is writing to put down skaters with more advanced moves and "bad" technique), is that while we apprecite your desire to help us overcome our flaws by so very nicely pointing them out. I don't see why it should bother you since you are advancing at a slower rate but with the wonderful, correct technique that you so espouse. As several of you have pointed out, you will be rewarded by the judges for this, and the other skaters (my side, so to speak) will be hammered by the judges. OK. So let it be. Why the "issues" with skaters who you consider to have higher level elements with "bad" technique? Why insult us? It does sound a lot like sour grapes. Sorry. But it does....Frankly, it sounds like someone who doesn't have the physical strength or "intestinal fortitude" to attempt a higher level item putting down those of us who do. Sure sounds like this to me, anyhow. Let the other readers make up their own minds.

Wow "Bitter, party of two? Bitter, Party of two, your table is ready!"

Juicy comments and I did not even chime in with my usual jabs!

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Oh, don't worry, I'm sure this thread will be locked soon. ....But I'd rather see it locked than have them continue to hammer me (and adults like me.) It is annoying to have someone who cannot even land an axel put down someone who can land doubles. Know what I mean? And they think they are "better" than the skaters who can land the doubles because their singles have "good technique." Give me a break! I mean this might make them feel better about themselves, and maybe their coach will agree with them in theory and to continue getting their lesson $, but in reality this just doesn't fly......And it is insulting to those of us who CAN land doubles (even sloppy ones)!!!

That would make sense if she didn't have all her doubles and wasn't working on double axel, double double combinations, etc.

If the coach uses video analysis, he or she can know if a skater is even capable of a double axel (air time, etc.), without wasting time training an element the skater is not yet capable of landing consistently.

I didn't mean taking off from the flat.

You don't need weight transfer awareness for toe loop or salchow?

I'm not gonna lie... I feel similarly. That's the reason why that specific post sort of stuck out at me...

But if the thread is going to degrade into a flame fest, I'd rather suspend my participation in it for a while