Which move do you think is more difficult, Preliminary Power Threes, or Pre-Juvenile Back Power Crossovers (AKA Russian stroking)?

I think the power three's are much more difficult, and from what I've seen other skaters doing, I think the B power crossovers should be in Prelim and the power threes should be in Pre-Juv.

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I think I've done the power 3's of which you speak - an outside 3-turn, backward push one direction, crossover the other, step around and do it again?), but I'm not sure what "back power crossovers" are. I've learned what my coach called back crossovers (where you lifted the both feet over as in front crossovers, I didn't like them as much as...) and "advanced" crossovers, which are the normal sorts you see people doing in preparation for jumps or spins. Do you mean one of those or something else?

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Back power crossovers is a pattern of alternating crossovers down the long axis. Do a B crossover, then push to the other BI edge (you are two footed here, almost in a B lunge position), reverse arms (shoulders) while shifting your weight to the other foot and its BO edge (power shift), and do the other crossover and push to a BI edge, etc.

The power threes have an element from the back power crossovers in them, which is the push from a BI to a BI edge and the power shift for the crossover.

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Hmm, sounds fun, but I'm not entirely clear on it (have come up with 2 different ideas from imagining while stepping about the room ;-) ).

Here's my best guess, let me know if it's right or wrong (and please forgive the verbosity):

Do a back crossover, let's say we start by crossing the right foot over the left (clockwise). The left foot comes off the ice, as in a normal crossover, but does not follow all the way around to the front. Instead, the left foot moves to the left and sets down on on inside edge. The body weight shifts onto the left foot, and then the shoulders reverse positions as the weight shift is reversed, and shifts right, setting down onto a right outside edge. Then the left foot crosses over the right (beginning a counterclockwise crossover).

Is this right? I haven't tried them yet...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Yes, the power 3's are more "difficult" than the crossovers. However, there is a progression of skills in the MIF tests. Complicated footwork with turns and edges is demanded throughout the MIF tests. Instead of having the first two tests be nearly all stroking and edges, introducing footwork at a lower level builds a foundation for the rest of the tests.

For instance, stroking elements are found on all the tests except Senior. Stroking isn't *difficult*, but it's something that must be refined on every level. Isolating the "easy" moves and placing them entirely on lower tests and only "hard" moves on higher tests would not make a well-balanced skater. Just as stroking needs to be practiced throughout the tests from PrePre to Junior, so should footwork development from the waltz-8 on PrePre to the quick circular step on Senior.

One thing I think is so fascinating about the MIF tests is how you can see a progression of skills and what moves set up for later ones.

Prelim Power 3's may be harder, but the standard of execution expected is lower (2.5 passing average for Prelim vice 2.7 passing average for Pre-Juv).

What I often see is a bit more forgiveness of a minimal power transition in the back crossovers in Prelim power 3's than in the backward power perimeter crossovers in Pre-Juv.

At Preliminary, the power expectation is that the skater will have the ability to accelerate with proper skating techniques. At Pre-Juv, the power expectation is that the skater will have the bi-lateral ability to push off with Equal and Even strength from solid edges with flexible skating knees.

At Prelim, the test standard is for basic flow and power as well as correct edges throughout. There should be some ability to create power from the BI edge with the weight shift.

At Pre-Juv, the test standard is for both crossovers of equal quality, good ice coverage, and correct use of the 2-foot transition as a momentary hold to set an Inside edge prior to the power push. Common errors include an inability to maintain a smooth or level shift of weight on proper edges, and an inability to create power or demonstrate equal power in both directions on back crossovers (there are other common errors, but these are the 2 that appear to be most related to the back crossovers in the Prelim Power 3's pattern).

However, if the tester cannot execute that weight shift (BI-BI) at all at Pre-Juv (or it's very minimal) odds are, they have problems pushing cleanly onto the BI edge in the FO3-BI3s AND being sufficiently over the skating side with control to cleanly nold the BI edge to top of lobe and cleanly execute the BI3.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

I'm doing your Back power crossovers (at my club they are just alternating back crosscuts) everyday as part of my warm up after doing them forward and I've yet to test my prelim FS. I'm taking the test at the end of spring skating.

I find the alternating 3's harder as sometimes my body doesn't want to do the clockwise motion. I'm trying to train my body to accept the clockwise direction. Funny though doing back 3''s aren't a problem. Go figure.

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I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

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Casey S - You've got it right.

Of course I understand the philosophy of it, and have mentioned the repetition of skills as one goes up the ladder myself in other threads. In fact, the B power crossovers are repeated at Intermediate with the Juv power threes on the ends. Nevertheless, I still believe the Prelim power threes belong in Pre-juv. I first learned the B power crossovers from watching a coach demo for someone else's lesson. Then I had to work to get them right, but they reached passing level fairly quickly, and it will be a very long time before my power threes will be passing at prelim level. The BI Choctaw is the deal breaker for me. BTW, I do think the F power crossovers are more difficult than the B.

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DRATS!!! Voted the poll wrong and couldn't undo my one vote for alt. back Xovers being harder than prelm power 3's. Prelim Power 3's are EVIL....EVIL, I tell 'ya!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I think you're going to get a split vote here, since some will find one move harder and others another! It just so depends on the skater....

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

No question that the power 3s are infinitely more difficult than the backward power perimeter XOs! Why, even I can do the latter somewhat respectably -- and with some power, to boot -- while I have yet to master my FO (and, for that matter, FI) 3s. I can do a rather lovely FO3 on each foot, and I can check them OK, but what I can't yet do is to sustain the edge going into the 3. I have also wondered why the order of these two moves is apparently reversed in the MITF sequence . . .

Ellen

The power 3's build off of the skills for the Alternating FO3s (check and control) and add in the skill of the transition/weight shift to gain power, as well as the concept of pushing off the back inside edges. They also are designed to help the skater develop the ability to execute checked 3-turns at greater velocity.

While the power back crossovers may be "easier," if the 2 MIF exercises were swapped, we might be seeing cases where the skater has the ability to power through the transitions in the back crossovers, but then has to grind to a screeching halt to do the choctaw before the FO3 (which we already occasionally see with both kids and adults....)

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Would anyone like to post an example of these two footworks please

Check out the Skating videos thread - I posted a video of power BXOs.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

It was unanimous that the power threes are more difficult, but you have to read to see that, as Jazzpants clicked the wrong button and there is no way to fix that.

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Sorry, Mrs. Redboots, but I did click on the wrong button. I tried to change it but I didn't see any way of changing my vote once I make the vote short of an Administrator or Board Moderator changing it. (You reading this, vBulletin??? Here's a BUG REPORT FOR 'YA!!!)

I got one more vote for the Prelim forward power 3's being harder than the Pre-Juvenile Back Power Crossovers. My secondary coach said "Didn't you always hear from me that I always thought the forward power 3's should be on the pre-Juv test?" (Which of course, got me like this . You reading this, dbny??? ) She then continues: "Trust me, you're NOT the only student that has problems with this move too!!! And I'm not the only coach that has this problem too!"

Maybe we should petition to have power 3's on the pre-Juv test and the alt crossovers (forward and backwards) on the prelim test???

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Well the power 3's may be more difficult but I am doing them better right now than my BXO's. My BXO's just got a heavy duty tune up from the coach so they are getting better. He feels like my three turns are very good so that is why my power 3's are easier for me.

My explanation for this? I had to suffer through the alternating 3's for the Adult pre-bronze MIF test! Now I am a 3 turn Wizard!!!!!! LOL LOL

IMHO Waltz 8 is too easy ....(sorry for those who are still struggling with alternating 3's!)

Cant wait for July Bronze MIF test. I hope to GOD I pass it!!!!!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

Oh, good!!! Then you'll LOVE the 3 turns that are on the Silver Moves tests!!!

If you haven't voted on the poll already, would you mind voting for the power 3's for me and you could have my one vote on the power BXO's!

Good luck on the Bronze Moves test in July!!! I'm still working on those moves. The target test date now is Sept. and I think I'll be ready then.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

They're similar, but not right as regarding the required moves pattern (not enough of an inside edge on the wide step--should change direction of lobe), so take the video w/ a grain of salt if you're using that as an example.......

Does anyone know a site where, the exact footwor for Power Cross overs and etc can be explained please thanks

Go to the USFSA web site (www.usfsa.org) and print out the order form and order a copy of the current rulebook. All the MIF and compulsory dances are diagrammed in the rulebook, along with descriptions of expectations and passing averages.

There's also all the rules that cover for USFS skaters requirements for the different levels of competition. These probably won't be applicable for non-US skaters, as each federation has it's own rules.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

You really need a rulebook to see the patterns drawn out, and then you need your coach to explain/demonstrate!

I believe you can order a rulebook at usfsa.org -- though it's hardly worth getting one now, as the new ones will be coming out in Sept. (though I don't believe anything is changing for standard track moves, or freestyle for that metter...) -- your coach should have one, or someone else at the rink maybe. When you register for USFS membership in July, you can order one then, but it won't come until Sept or Oct.

ETA we posted at the same time!

I have seen adults at test sessions who have tried to learn the Power 3s just by looking at the book without consulting a coach. I tried to do this at first, learning with a friend and following along with the book. For me it didn't work and for those adults who I have seen testing without a coach, the results are NOT PRETTY!! The diagram does not really indicate how the move is really supposed to look when you do it.

For instance, in the first part of the Move (p. 388 in my current rulebook) first you do a LFO3, to RBI edge -- there is a little asterick at that point, and in tiny letters at the bottom of the page says, "*denotes wide power push and a two-foot transition" -- this is where the weight is transferred from the left to right side, and as has been described, you go into a kind of lunge-like position, with your weight on the Right inside edge, with the Left foot kind of trailing to the inside of the lobe as you transfer your weight to do the power cross-over.

My coach has her students really emphasize this RI edge strongly by bringing your arms all the way to the right and basically looking at the opposite wall (the one across the rink), rather than looking back to where you started, before doing the cross.

Most of the kids I see do this Move don't really emphasize that step, but I can tell you one thing for sure -- the judges are looking for it!

There are tapes available (you can order them from the PSA) where all of the Moves are demonstrated -- with tips on how they should be taught.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

I forgot to mention in my last post is that what makes this move difficult for me is not the 3, or the inside edge to power cross -- it is the step-forward -- especially on the Right 3-turn side. I have completely psyched myself out so many times, that I can barely do it anymore!!

Must keep trying...

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

OMG! You've got to be kidding. That's just crazy!! Are these maybe people more accustomed to the ISI test structure that's more relaxed and not as strict on standards?